Vilestride wrote: »

When 99% of the player base is PUGs it's kinda hard to not be fighting PUGs no?

Though I'm sure the groups we are fighting every raid don't appreciate you referring to them as PUGs.
Obviously there aren't as many large scale guilds as there once was but PUG hunting's not the word I'd use unless by PUG hunting you mean 'being in cyrodil'.

We tried to advocate a large group GvG scene (12v12). No one went for it. The smallscale scene is doing better in that regard at least and seems to still be active but despite there being plenty of active large-scale guilds active day to day, it's not something many, if any of them are interested in.

Can't testify for the EU/ZS situation but I gotta imagine there are similar issues.

zyk wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

When 99% of the player base is PUGs it's kinda hard to not be fighting PUGs no?

Though I'm sure the groups we are fighting every raid don't appreciate you referring to them as PUGs.
Obviously there aren't as many large scale guilds as there once was but PUG hunting's not the word I'd use unless by PUG hunting you mean 'being in cyrodil'.

We tried to advocate a large group GvG scene (12v12). No one went for it. The smallscale scene is doing better in that regard at least and seems to still be active but despite there being plenty of active large-scale guilds active day to day, it's not something many, if any of them are interested in.

Can't testify for the EU/ZS situation but I gotta imagine there are similar issues.

None of this changes the reality of the situation. No one should feel shame helping a disorganized collection of random players that range in aptitude fight a group of highly organized hardcore players in optimal, synergizing builds. That it's looked down upon by some is absurd.

Thogard wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

i don´t think you can counter them with one player - you can however join the zerg fighting them and that will help - but it faces the same problem that was brought up by sanct before: do you really wanna be the guy joining the zerg to kill them?
otherwise i´m 100% sure you wouldn´t touch zs or uf with your bombblade unless they´re not already fighting outnumbered.

Why not do this? The players in this game have to get over numbers as if it's the only or most important factor. A highly organized group like Drac or ZS might fight outnumbered, but they have every other advantage most of the time.

Let's face it. These groups go pug hunting. In other games it's considered lame when Clans group up on public servers to wipe disorganized randoms. It's lame for the same reason here too. So there's no shame in helping random teammates overcome a powerful foe. I'd call that virtuous.

When 99% of the player base is PUGs it's kinda hard to not be fighting PUGs no?

Though I'm sure the groups we are fighting every raid don't appreciate you referring to them as PUGs.
Obviously there aren't as many large scale guilds as there once was but PUG hunting's not the word I'd use unless by PUG hunting you mean 'being in cyrodil'.

We tried to advocate a large group GvG scene (12v12). No one went for it. The smallscale scene is doing better in that regard at least and seems to still be active but despite there being plenty of active large-scale guilds active day to day, it's not something many, if any of them are interested in.

Can't testify for the EU/ZS situation but I gotta imagine there are similar issues.

Whether they’re a pug or a “group” really depends on how big your own group is.

A group of six might come across another group of six. To them, not a pug.

But if you’re running 18, then to be outnumbered you’d need to fight another group of at least 18. You could fight the same group of six from before, but then you’re really just zerging them down. If that group of six kites until they reach two other groups of six, yeah at that point they’ll have 18, but it’s not a group of 18... it’s an unorganized pug (I’d say zerg) of 18.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Since everything i reply is apparently the words of a loony for you why would i bother - how would you go about fixing performance? It´s apparent that it can´t be fixed on serverside/gamecode level - otherwise it would have been done.
How would you change the undesireable status quo?

Fortunately I made a seperate post about the changes I would make quite some months ago.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375313/pvp-patch-4-0-0-bringing-the-fight-back-to-cyrodiil-podcast-dracast-episode-5

Yeah read that back then.
Still don´t how you´d get the idea any of these changes would improve the games performance as none of the changes aims at changing combat behaviour of people.

Adjusting rewards. Promoting campaign play. Diminishing nightcapping effectiveness. Giving more weight to holding multiple objectives. Yeh I'm sure none of that would impact how players play at all

frozywozy wrote: »

@Biro123 @Irylia @Derra @LarsS @pieratsos @ezeepeezee

I don't feel like replying individually to each of you guys and each of your points so I'll just quote all of ya and comment on important points I have seen coming back repeatedly.

There are no ways to counter ballgroups

Several of you guys continue to state that ballgroups can take over any numbers thrown at them. This is simply not true. First of all, it is simply unrealistic to claim that the removal of AOE caps allowed ballgroups to kill as many stacked players as they want. Sure, they have the power to do it once or twice, depending of the leader's call.

And then what? They have to take constant pressure and survive while rebuilding ultis and kite around under constant negates, timestops, siege damage, chains and such. As I stated previously in this thread, it is so easy to counter an enemy ball group, I do it constantly during offhours on my bomb blade and successfully. It is simply wrong and biased to declare that the only way to counter a ballgroup is to outnumber them. You can do it with one player if timed correctly.

Ballgroups ignore other ballgroups

At least most of the time in NA, we fight other guilds mixed with their faction several times a day. I know that Sanct describe why such behavior would happen but to be honest I haven't seen this happening in a long time. The only real occasion of guilds avoiding each other is the fact that some of them literally gave up and avoid us from now on.

Performances go bad when a ballgroup is running

First, people should always have a look at the population bars. If all 3 factions are locked (with a queue), there is your problem. The servers cannot support that many players at once. It has been proven already so many times in the past. I have been playing this game at all hours of the day and still do lately. When populations drop at 3bars, even with 16men organized groups running, there is 0 latency on my side. Ping stable at 83-102ms.

I know that alot of people, including guild members disagree with the following solution because they believe the fights would be really hard to find, but personally, I believe that the population cap should be dropped drastically until they figure out how to fix performances. I will touch this point later on.

Second, when you see a ballgroup rolling in your area and you experience a very high ping, don't jump to conclusion right away. Yes of course they are a major cause of the lag but not the worse. Quite often, you simply have to open your map and have a look at the different crosses and their colors.

As Solar pointed out in one of his post, we had an episod last week where we went down to pvdoor Faregyl, Alessia, Sej and nobody would respond. In the meantime, our ping was extremely high and abilities / weapon swap very unresponsive. The real cause of the lag was 2 entire factions fighting each other in the Aleswell <=> Bleakers <=> Chalman route. If you see only one place with a faction's color, it most likely mean that all its players are there which causes terrible performances when populations are locked.

Ballgroups are immune to debuffs

This is another assumption that I can understand because it kind of make sense to believe that having dedicated purgers make us immune to them but it is simply not true. 90% of our death recaps are full of debuffs (mainly siege damage).

It is extremely hard to fight under siege pressure, especially this patch as you probably noticed. Scattershots and meatbags cause terrific amount of damage (which I think is a great change). It forces people to bring additional walls down and new strategics / tactics to cover multiple breaches for the defenders.

But again, don't assume without actually experimenting it yourself. Debuffs are very difficult to counter, for all playstyles.


@Irylia mentions that people playing in ballgroups wouldn't know what to do in small scale. This is pure trash and toxic talk, as expected coming from him. Tell you what, most of us would probably lose in small scale against your group because you know way better this playstyle and have way more experience.

This being said, I am 99% sure that you wouldn't be able to achieve what we do in a 16men raid because you don't have the experience with the current meta. You think it's easy but simply don't understand or refuse to because of your ego.

Don't tell me that you did it in the past. It was way easier before.

Server performances can be fixed, its a question of money. The marketing dept. probably has a certain amount of income to earn before they finally decide to invest and fix the problem. It always comes down to money. And when the solution resides in rewriting the entire code because of how wrong it was to start with, keeping in mind that the game took 6 years to be developed, it's a lot of investment. Then come the new hardware's, which are more than needed.

Finally, you have the terrible mentality of most business men who don't want to invest money to get results later on. They want it the other way around, which is unrealistic and stupid. This game had the potential to be the best mmo of all time and still could be. I am 100% sure that if the game performances would be fixed for good, we could have dozens of campaigns opened with thousands of players at once in PvP.

But the marketing dept. and whoever is in charge to take this decision and invest money into fixing it see the amount of players actually pvping, the money it would take to fix it VS. the amount of players actually pveing VS. the amount of players buying crown crates and they think "Do we really want to make this game great, invest long term and get an absurd amount of money / fame / glory or do we want to make easy average money now?"

And they decide to go for the safe and easy solution.