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Why is the trial scene so toxic?
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AuldWolf✭✭✭✭✭@MTijhuis
Exactly. It's a video game. It's about fun. Those who view it as 'work' are very wrong-headed. If people aren't having fun, they won't bother. And that's why the trial scene continually shrinks, eventually only the toxic, elitist people will be left. It'll be interesting to see what ZOS chooses to do when that happens. Due to the way it's designed, though? It's almost like it's made to implode.
The more savvy people become, the less they bother. They begin to realise that they'll have to group with undesirable people instead of just grouping with people they like because they chose to. This is why the raiding scene in every MMO post-WoW has imploded. It's because WoW has the lion's share of the elitist, toxic people described here. They won't leave. All the trial scene in ESO can do is shrink, and shrink, and shrink until it finally implodes.
I don't know why MMO developers don't understand that the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people don't enjoy forced grouping, they prefer optional grouping. I mean, we can all make friends. We can play games with our friends. We don't need an MMO developer to put systems in pace to make friends for us because that only ever leads to bad things.1 -
Harrdarrzarr✭✭✭Toxicity can also be invited, and is subjective as well. If for example you get told that you can't play very well, depending on how it's told that is not toxicity.
I've seen a few guildies in my social guild who wear full heavy armor and spam cleave who get incredibly angry when they are told they are not welcome in a trialrun. Someone who plays like that got told he wasn't welcome in a veteran Fang Lair HM run, he called them elitist. They tell the groupmember how they are so very toxic. They say they payed for the game, so they can't be excluded from trialruns.
On the other hand, I hear plenty of stories how people behave like absolute asses when they lead a group, so people can have bad experiences with that.Edited by Harrdarrzarr on July 5, 2018 9:12AM0 -
AuldWolf✭✭✭✭✭@Bhaal5
Then you also have those who just want to have fun, enjoy the content, and immerse themselves in the storyline. That seems t be the largest group by a country mile, accounting for >95 per cent of the community. Then you have the other three accounting for the other <5 per cent. What happens is that the ones who just want to have fun, enjoy the content, and be immersed in the storyline will stick it out for as long as they can tolerate it before dropping out.
That's why the vast, vast, vast majority of the community doesn't bother with trials. As you've said, there are lots of different kinds of extremely toxic over-achievers who're only interested in themselves and their own goals. That's not the kind of person that most people want to be around. It might work well in certain job scenarios, but in a video game, it's undesirable. Worse, I think we get stuck with those who couldn't cut it in WoW and EVE so there's an inferiority complex on top of that as well.
I wish MMO developers would learn.0 -
TheInfernalRage✭✭✭✭✭Trials with guildmates are fun. But my wife was able to find PUGs where everything was so smooth and they're not even chatting. One time they did Cloudrest +3 in less than 30 mins and no one even chatted and only the party leader was giving directions.
Dungeons are fine until you have a healer who don't heal or a tank who can't tank.
I enjoy PVP. Once I start Cyrodiil, it usually last for at least 3 hours of playtime there. I was tea bagged once, but I didn't know it was such a negative thing to do so I told my wife (while laughing) "Check this guy. Looks like he's having allergies after he killed me." Well, first impressions last LOL.
The most toxic for me is in any chat where someone is being criticized for his or her build because the lack of BiS (or BS?) items. The vets usually have a way of saying things that encourages other players compared to preachy noobs who profess themselves experts after copying a build from Alcast.1 -
Xuhora✭✭✭✭✭This is why we cant have fun!
on a rather serious note thou...
When different people play the same game at the same time, which is the core aspect of a MMORPG, its a logical thing that different mindsets come together. Let me tell you a story:
I've played football (soccer for our american guys) since i was a small child. I did it for fun, eventually growing up and becoming better and joining new leagues, first because of my age, then because of my skill. One year i was grown up and joined a leage in the lower tier of a high class. at that time i enjoyed the competition with other footballclubs as much as i enjoyed training with my own club. But the problem was, we were losing matches left and right, because other players in my team got wasted the night before a match, thus not beeing able to play the game as good as they could if the werent hungover. they enjoyed football for the fellowship of it, while i enjoyed the progress and becoming better. long story short, different mindsets came together and i stopped playing football.
frankly, this can be translated in the "problem" this thread adresses.
The trial scene is not toxic at all when the same mindsets play together. in my guild we help each other becoming better, farming gear, do parses at dummies etc. because, believe it or not: we are having fun while doing that
No: we dont expect other people to enjoy the same thing we do, because everybody can play the game how he wants to.
But while PUGing a trial, it happens that the different mindsets come together and create a uncomfortable environment for all 12 players.
And the most important part i want to adress: calling people sociapaths just because they enjoy something different than i do is something rather concerning and doesnt belong into a forum nor into a MMORPG. In fact, its the same elitism you are running your crusade against @AuldWolf only your way is good and right and everyone that doesnt share that is a bad guy and shall leave this game immediatly. TBH you lost the last rest of credibility you had on your account.
for all the others that are not boarderliners: try to be a little more generous with the mindsets your groupmember could have, be it one or the other way. every way has its perks, every way is enjoyable, be it yours or not.
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tunepunk✭✭✭✭✭Tried a couple of trials with a casual guild without any DPS requirement. Still didn't really like it. I doubt i would like PUG trials even less.
My main issue with trials are, they are simply not fun, and the encounters are too long and feel too scripted. Too much repetition. Trash grind, Trash grind, Rotation, rotation, boss at 50%, rotation, 25%, rotation, burn phase. Zzzzzz. Sleepfest.
Most Boss encounters needs to have more rotation breaking random mechanics, Taunt immunity. I don't know, i think it's just the scripted nature of the game, trials and encounters in general I'm not fond of.
Every day I do my pledges, I wish the dungeons would have a slightly randomized setup. Different encounters, bosses, enemy position and trash mob group composition.
The scripted nature of ESO becomes most apparent in Trials, and probably why I like it the least.
Edited by tunepunk on July 5, 2018 12:04PM1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is why we cant have fun!
And the most important part i want to adress: calling people sociapaths just because they enjoy something different than i do is something rather concerning and doesnt belong into a forum nor into a MMORPG.
for all the others that are not boarderliners: try to be a little more generous with the mindsets your groupmember could have, be it one or the other way. every way has its perks, every way is enjoyable, be it yours or not.
It certainly illustrates that "toxicity", or elitism, isn't limited to the trial scene.
That's often why PUGs are often more toxic. Groups that have any amount of real cohesion at least in part did so by removing the "toxicity" from their group. It's counter productive to their overall goals, especially in an environment that's based so heavily on group dynamics. Groups that are able to recognize toxicity successfully and view it as a detriment tend to be less inclusive and what we often see is the remainder.TheInfernalRage wrote: »The most toxic for me is in any chat where someone is being criticized for his or her build because the lack of BiS (or BS?) items. The vets usually have a way of saying things that encourages other players compared to preachy noobs who profess themselves experts after copying a build from Alcast.
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Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Bhaal5
Then you also have those who just want to have fun, enjoy the content, and immerse themselves in the storyline.
That's why the vast, vast, vast majority of the community doesn't bother with trials.
Exactly. Someone who is here to enjoy, have fun, be immersed in content is free to do that in the other 98% of the content in the game. But trials is not the place for them, so the point is moot.
Vet trials were designed to be challenging content where players will need to work together and really work on "getting good" to complete. Anyone who is walking into a vet trial because they want to immerse themselves in content is begging for a bad time.
There is a time and place to immerse yourself in quest content and vet trials isn't one of them.
Edited by Inarre on July 5, 2018 2:41PM3 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »DuskMarine wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »DuskMarine wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »There are plenty of good guilds who will help coach you to get experience with trials. I am in one that runs vet trials at different tiers of player experience from beginner to more score pushing runs. No one will be very concerned if you make mistakes in a veteran trial training run, but friendly advice and coaching is offered.
It’s not like ppl who would not even spend 10 min follow a proper build want to get on training runs. And if a training run has no req it will get nowhere. A lot ppl just cry when they don’t get a carry. They expect get drom destoyer by spam snipe.
well the bad part about the snipe thing is its actually doable with glitches which zos knows all to much about but wont fix. but still there is no good guild that has requirements for anything but dps(which you have to have a certain dps to run some things or mechanics say hi) but anything else you dont need it.
Dummy parse is legit the best indicator of a damaged dealer’s skill ceiling. Ofc guilds ask for parse. A guy with high parse may not be good in trial. But a guy who can’t even parse 30k will def be a bad damage dealer.
ive actually added damage up irt and your easily doing 30k without thinking. but combat metrics even as flawed as it is for some reason is treated as god. but dps you can still run 25k and still do vet hm easily. but the dummies unless theres one that moves you can never take that as gospel.
Yeah keep telling yourself 25k is nuf for vmol hm.
Technically it's true, but 200K group DPS makes for a very rough clear on HM.0 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »DuskMarine wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »DuskMarine wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »There are plenty of good guilds who will help coach you to get experience with trials. I am in one that runs vet trials at different tiers of player experience from beginner to more score pushing runs. No one will be very concerned if you make mistakes in a veteran trial training run, but friendly advice and coaching is offered.
It’s not like ppl who would not even spend 10 min follow a proper build want to get on training runs. And if a training run has no req it will get nowhere. A lot ppl just cry when they don’t get a carry. They expect get drom destoyer by spam snipe.
well the bad part about the snipe thing is its actually doable with glitches which zos knows all to much about but wont fix. but still there is no good guild that has requirements for anything but dps(which you have to have a certain dps to run some things or mechanics say hi) but anything else you dont need it.
Dummy parse is legit the best indicator of a damaged dealer’s skill ceiling. Ofc guilds ask for parse. A guy with high parse may not be good in trial. But a guy who can’t even parse 30k will def be a bad damage dealer.
ive actually added damage up irt and your easily doing 30k without thinking. but combat metrics even as flawed as it is for some reason is treated as god. but dps you can still run 25k and still do vet hm easily. but the dummies unless theres one that moves you can never take that as gospel.
Yeah keep telling yourself 25k is nuf for vmol hm.
Technically it's true, but 200K group DPS makes for a very rough clear on HM.
Have you even done vmol hm? Have you not thought there are runners?
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SocialAssassin✭✭✭Because MMO's allow people to be "toxic" and it's not like they'll get banned for being "toxic" unless it becomes a real issue? See if ESO was to ban all of the "toxic" players there would be no one left to play the game. It has to do a lot with self-entitlement as well. People figure that pay $$$ and they can do whatever they want. And another reason is that ESO makes $$$$ of these "toxic" players as well. It would nice if there was at least one MMO that didn't allow "toxic players" I read an interview and this game developer said "If your game doesn't go "toxic" your doing something wrong.“I’m The Best There Is At What I Do. But What I Do Isn't Very Nice…” - Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett0 -
DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭SocialAssassin wrote: »Because MMO's allow people to be "toxic" and it's not like they'll get banned for being "toxic" unless it becomes a real issue? See if ESO was to ban all of the "toxic" players there would be no one left to play the game. It has to do a lot with self-entitlement as well. People figure that pay $$$ and they can do whatever they want. And another reason is that ESO makes $$$$ of these "toxic" players as well. It would nice if there was at least one MMO that didn't allow "toxic players" I read an interview and this game developer said "If your game doesn't go "toxic" your doing something wrong.
I like the bolded part. I like it a lot. I'll even volunteer to be the mod who does it.2 -
SocialAssassin✭✭✭SocialAssassin wrote: »Because MMO's allow people to be "toxic" and it's not like they'll get banned for being "toxic" unless it becomes a real issue? See if ESO was to ban all of the "toxic" players there would be no one left to play the game. It has to do a lot with self-entitlement as well. People figure that pay $$$ and they can do whatever they want. And another reason is that ESO makes $$$$ of these "toxic" players as well. It would nice if there was at least one MMO that didn't allow "toxic players" I read an interview and this game developer said "If your game doesn't go "toxic" your doing something wrong.
I like the bolded part. I like it a lot. I'll even volunteer to be the mod who does it.
Thanks
Same here I would volunteer to do it too. Yeah! because in my opinion the "mods" that ESO already has, leave a lot to be desired. And it's not that hard but you have to willing to actually do something? Instead of ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away on its self. Edited by SocialAssassin on July 5, 2018 6:50PM“I’m The Best There Is At What I Do. But What I Do Isn't Very Nice…” - Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett0 -
Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
✭SocialAssassin wrote: »It has to do a lot with self-entitlement as well. People figure that pay $$$ and they can do whatever they want. And another reason is that ESO makes $$$$ of these "toxic" players as well. It would nice if there was at least one MMO that didn't allow "toxic players" I read an interview and this game developer said "If your game doesn't go "toxic" your doing something wrong.
It's not a black and white issue, and the fact that it is not is not due to how much money players pay. We all signed an agreement that we have reasonable expectation of access to the game we paid for, whether it was 70$ at release, 10$ yesterday, or 5000$ on loot boxes. There is no rules against someone in vmol trial getting upset when another player keeps killing the entire team. Whether it's toxic or not depends on what was said, how it was said, in front of who it was said, who else chimed in, and how the player received what was said. It's all incredibly subjective, so I think that "toxicity" is not policed is not so much to do with money but more to do with the fact that it's impossible for an outsider to adequately judge who is right or wrong in any situation.
Now if you repeatedly made death threats. Well, maybe it would be a bit different.2 -
Bhaal5✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Bhaal5
Then you also have those who just want to have fun, enjoy the content, and immerse themselves in the storyline.
That's why the vast, vast, vast majority of the community doesn't bother with trials.
Exactly. Someone who is here to enjoy, have fun, be immersed in content is free to do that in the other 98% of the content in the game. But trials is not the place for them, so the point is moot.
Vet trials were designed to be challenging content where players will need to work together and really work on "getting good" to complete. Anyone who is walking into a vet trial because they want to immerse themselves in content is begging for a bad time.
There is a time and place to immerse yourself in quest content and vet trials isn't one of them.
I would put the guys and girls that want to have fun, in group 1. They guys that want to build something. As they to want to have fun and those normally fall into this group (in my opinion anyway)0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I hope some of the 12 man PvE zergs come out to Cyrodiil for Murder Mayhem and reckt. I need the AP hehehehe.0 -
SocialAssassin✭✭✭SocialAssassin wrote: »It has to do a lot with self-entitlement as well. People figure that pay $$$ and they can do whatever they want. And another reason is that ESO makes $$$$ of these "toxic" players as well. It would nice if there was at least one MMO that didn't allow "toxic players" I read an interview and this game developer said "If your game doesn't go "toxic" your doing something wrong.
It's not a black and white issue, and the fact that it is not is not due to how much money players pay. We all signed an agreement that we have reasonable expectation of access to the game we paid for, whether it was 70$ at release, 10$ yesterday, or 5000$ on loot boxes. There is no rules against someone in vmol trial getting upset when another player keeps killing the entire team. Whether it's toxic or not depends on what was said, how it was said, in front of who it was said, who else chimed in, and how the player received what was said. It's all incredibly subjective, so I think that "toxicity" is not policed is not so much to do with money but more to do with the fact that it's impossible for an outsider to adequately judge who is right or wrong in any situation.
Now if you repeatedly made death threats. Well, maybe it would be a bit different.
I respect what you're saying I disagree. All except the thing about death threats. Fine, it may not be a $$$$ issue? But it's definitely a "self-entitled" issue.“I’m The Best There Is At What I Do. But What I Do Isn't Very Nice…” - Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett0 -
XiDiabolismiX✭✭✭Lol at all the comments made trying to analyze every reason behind someone getting butthurt. Toxic people are toxic because of human nature, not because of some of the crazy reasons outlined above (looking at you @SocialAssassin , self entitlement...really?) And this game is an MMO, so you willingly accept that you are going to play with other people. There’s so many different types of groups of people in the game that if a certain one doesn’t fit your play style... find a new one!
You really shouldn’t be coming to the forums to complain or analyzing it any further than what it is; Humans doing what humans do best. Not a single game or company would have the resources, money, or time to police a game so that every time someone gets butthurt and offended, there’s someone there to hold their hand. Just walk away.Edited by XiDiabolismiX on July 6, 2018 12:06PM0 -
Grabmoore✭✭✭✭✭Have you met the people who do Trials religiously? Is it any wonder they're toxic? I mean, honestly, Meta Elitists just LOVE Trials.
Uhm, this got to be the most toxic comment in the entire thread. Wrong way, mate.
Just because "Play as you want" ends in endgame trials, doesn't mean people are idiots all the way.EU - PC - Ebonheart Pact
Iggy Grabmoore - Argonian Magicka Templar | Nyctasha - Redguard Stamina Nightblade
Do-Ra'Zhar - Khajiit Stamina DK | Ashmedi - Dunmer Magicka DK
Vanya Darchow - AD Altmer Magicka Sorc | Malek gro'Kash - Orc Stam Sorc
GM of "Handelshaus von Riften" - Trading & PvX Community3 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Have you met the people who do Trials religiously? Is it any wonder they're toxic? I mean, honestly, Meta Elitists just LOVE Trials.
Uhm, this got to be the most toxic comment in the entire thread. Wrong way, mate.
Just because "Play as you want" ends in endgame trials, doesn't mean people are idiots all the way.
The person you responded to likes to cry about elitism and toxicity while making the most toxic, generalized statements.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA1 -
Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
✭SocialAssassin wrote: »SocialAssassin wrote: »It has to do a lot with self-entitlement as well. People figure that pay $$$ and they can do whatever they want. And another reason is that ESO makes $$$$ of these "toxic" players as well. It would nice if there was at least one MMO that didn't allow "toxic players" I read an interview and this game developer said "If your game doesn't go "toxic" your doing something wrong.
It's not a black and white issue, and the fact that it is not is not due to how much money players pay. We all signed an agreement that we have reasonable expectation of access to the game we paid for, whether it was 70$ at release, 10$ yesterday, or 5000$ on loot boxes. There is no rules against someone in vmol trial getting upset when another player keeps killing the entire team. Whether it's toxic or not depends on what was said, how it was said, in front of who it was said, who else chimed in, and how the player received what was said. It's all incredibly subjective, so I think that "toxicity" is not policed is not so much to do with money but more to do with the fact that it's impossible for an outsider to adequately judge who is right or wrong in any situation.
Now if you repeatedly made death threats. Well, maybe it would be a bit different.
I respect what you're saying I disagree. All except the thing about death threats. Fine, it may not be a $$$$ issue? But it's definitely a "self-entitled" issue.
I would agree.
If i join a group that is looking for experienced players to complete a vet trial, I do feel that I, or anyone else in that situation, is entitled to be upset if one of the players who joined that group is not experienced, is "just there for fun", wants to immerse themselves in content, or otherwise was dishonest about their experience or ability to complete.
The issue here is that one player feels so self-entitled to "having fun" that they waste the time of eleven other players who are there specifically to complete.1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the word "toxic" is overused these days. Recruiting people with similar goals and mindset is not toxic, its what everyone does.
As for my personal experience, I've been raiding for a couple of years and only met a few truly toxic people (harassers, drama queens, this type of thing). Most of endgame players in this game are quite friendly and helped me a lot when I was just starting. They also release builds and dungeon/trial guides, which is a nice thing to do if you ask me.
Speaking of builds... It's really obvious that meta bashers arent really familiar with the concept itself. Its not like "I told you to use %randomset%, don't you dare using something else!". Its usually like "I tested this and that, and that seems to be the best, but if you can offer a better setup or strategy, please tell us". No one in a good raiding guild will bash you for being non-meta as long as your non-meta works. Dont forget, one of the best tanks in this game is a khajiit.
On the other hand, if you play a non-meta build and it gives subpar results, maybe its better to find a more relaxed guild (if you dont want to change your build and practice more, that is). There are many guilds in this game, and its better to find one that suits you than being offended by other guild's standarts. Live and let live.
On a side note, there's nothing "elite" about random pugs, even if they're very arrogant. If anything, this behaviour is much more common amongst pugs, especially dds that pull below average numbers. I prefer playing as a suport, and most of negativity I've encountered in this game came from those guys. And yeah, even if they have trial skins and titles, it doesnt prove anything, those can be bought, I know about a person who sold an account with several dromathra destroyers, for example.
Edited by LadyNalcarya on July 6, 2018 4:14PMDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SocialAssassin wrote: »SocialAssassin wrote: »It has to do a lot with self-entitlement as well. People figure that pay $$$ and they can do whatever they want. And another reason is that ESO makes $$$$ of these "toxic" players as well. It would nice if there was at least one MMO that didn't allow "toxic players" I read an interview and this game developer said "If your game doesn't go "toxic" your doing something wrong.
It's not a black and white issue, and the fact that it is not is not due to how much money players pay. We all signed an agreement that we have reasonable expectation of access to the game we paid for, whether it was 70$ at release, 10$ yesterday, or 5000$ on loot boxes. There is no rules against someone in vmol trial getting upset when another player keeps killing the entire team. Whether it's toxic or not depends on what was said, how it was said, in front of who it was said, who else chimed in, and how the player received what was said. It's all incredibly subjective, so I think that "toxicity" is not policed is not so much to do with money but more to do with the fact that it's impossible for an outsider to adequately judge who is right or wrong in any situation.
Now if you repeatedly made death threats. Well, maybe it would be a bit different.
I respect what you're saying I disagree. All except the thing about death threats. Fine, it may not be a $$$$ issue? But it's definitely a "self-entitled" issue.
I would agree.
If i join a group that is looking for experienced players to complete a vet trial, I do feel that I, or anyone else in that situation, is entitled to be upset if one of the players who joined that group is not experienced, is "just there for fun", wants to immerse themselves in content, or otherwise was dishonest about their experience or ability to complete.
The issue here is that one player feels so self-entitled to "having fun" that they waste the time of eleven other players who are there specifically to complete.
Also, this.
"Having fun" at the expense of 11 other people is extremely entitled. A lot of trial players in this game are adults, their playtime is already limited due to rl reasons, and they dont owe their time to a random person who just wants a trial skin or title.
Its also kinda hypocritical, those "fun" players dont want to play with other "fun" players, because they know that it will take more time and effort, and the result is not guaranteed.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
Heka Cain✭✭✭Tamriel is replete with vapid, mainstream, myopic morons! That is why I wind them up and watch them go!!!1
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DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why do I keep hearing that Brittany Spears song playing over and over in my head every time I read this thread title?0