Are 'Ball-Groups' even logical ?

Etaniel · July 2018

Xai_Zi wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The only way to beat cooperation and coordination in this game is to punish those things. Removing a skill or making little nerfs here and there won't change anything. As always, I remain confused by people who see effective groups and get upset rather than impressed.

To be honest, I don't think people are mad at their efficiency.
I'd even dare say that their group format is not the most efficient in a lot of occasions. But then, efficiency scales on what you're aiming to do.

What pisses me off about ball groups is when they act irresponsibly.
Like 2 days ago, their was a tri faction fight at roebeck on vivec EU to try and dethrone AD during prime time. That single fight made the entire server lag, our group knew it was going to be painful so we went to faregyl to try and trigger some ADs so that the roe siege might be over faster.
That roebeck fight lasted over an hour because one red group was farming pugs inside the keep, and was unable to finish the fight and capture. I say unable, but it's most likely unwilling as they were probably having fun farming and they had the perfect situation, last emp keep so yellows would commit 100% to the defense, and the dc zerg was too stupid to capture the rest of the undefended map. So essentially that red group made the whole server unplayable for an hour. Our group logged off because we don't have dedicated healing spring spammers so it's actually game breaking when you need to break free 4 times before you can heal yourself.

Now some will say that's its the DC zerg's fault for stacking up when they could have left the EP capture, to which I respond that the organized groups are the ones with the brains, they should be the ones to act accordingly, and not the light attack spamming cp 140 who has no clue what's going on.
They could have either gone for a fast dethrone and leave to farm AD at their remaining keeps, or let DC capture and farm them afterwards, but no, they had to farm the keep for 1 hour because the AP/hour ratio was more important than having a playable server. And that's when and why ball groups trigger me the most.

Honestly, where do these ball groups even find the gall to act irresponsibility in a video game. If they are going to participate in an activity, designed to be an escape from the responsibilities of real life, they should at least have the bloody decency to play responsibly as a ball group and do what other people want them to bloody do.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Xai_Zi wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The only way to beat cooperation and coordination in this game is to punish those things. Removing a skill or making little nerfs here and there won't change anything. As always, I remain confused by people who see effective groups and get upset rather than impressed.

To be honest, I don't think people are mad at their efficiency.
I'd even dare say that their group format is not the most efficient in a lot of occasions. But then, efficiency scales on what you're aiming to do.

What pisses me off about ball groups is when they act irresponsibly.
Like 2 days ago, their was a tri faction fight at roebeck on vivec EU to try and dethrone AD during prime time. That single fight made the entire server lag, our group knew it was going to be painful so we went to faregyl to try and trigger some ADs so that the roe siege might be over faster.
That roebeck fight lasted over an hour because one red group was farming pugs inside the keep, and was unable to finish the fight and capture. I say unable, but it's most likely unwilling as they were probably having fun farming and they had the perfect situation, last emp keep so yellows would commit 100% to the defense, and the dc zerg was too stupid to capture the rest of the undefended map. So essentially that red group made the whole server unplayable for an hour. Our group logged off because we don't have dedicated healing spring spammers so it's actually game breaking when you need to break free 4 times before you can heal yourself.

Now some will say that's its the DC zerg's fault for stacking up when they could have left the EP capture, to which I respond that the organized groups are the ones with the brains, they should be the ones to act accordingly, and not the light attack spamming cp 140 who has no clue what's going on.
They could have either gone for a fast dethrone and leave to farm AD at their remaining keeps, or let DC capture and farm them afterwards, but no, they had to farm the keep for 1 hour because the AP/hour ratio was more important than having a playable server. And that's when and why ball groups trigger me the most.

Honestly, where do these ball groups even find the gall to act irresponsibility in a video game. If they are going to participate in an activity, designed to be an escape from the responsibilities of real life, they should at least have the bloody decency to play responsibly as a ball group and do what other people want them to bloody do.

Right? Like, they should obey the chain of command and listen to those 5-star Zone Generals, right? And they should definitely play on the enemies' terms, not their own. That's how this works, right?

I really isn't that hard to grasp, let me put it more simply :

I think we can all agree that if there was someone who was a major lag contributor and it was a known fact, we'd all tell that person to stop ruining the game for everyone else right?

Well I *personnaly* believe ball groups are the biggest contributors to lag (in certain situations). Whether you agree or not is irrelevant when it comes to understanding why I get pissed off at some ball groups.

What I expect is people arguing that ball groups don't lag and why they perceive it that way, not people telling me "we should play how we want hurr durr". The first option allows for debate and conversation while the second just shows you still can't process the biggest complaint in this game since 2015

VaranisArano · July 2018

Etaniel wrote: »

Xai_Zi wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The only way to beat cooperation and coordination in this game is to punish those things. Removing a skill or making little nerfs here and there won't change anything. As always, I remain confused by people who see effective groups and get upset rather than impressed.

To be honest, I don't think people are mad at their efficiency.
I'd even dare say that their group format is not the most efficient in a lot of occasions. But then, efficiency scales on what you're aiming to do.

What pisses me off about ball groups is when they act irresponsibly.
Like 2 days ago, their was a tri faction fight at roebeck on vivec EU to try and dethrone AD during prime time. That single fight made the entire server lag, our group knew it was going to be painful so we went to faregyl to try and trigger some ADs so that the roe siege might be over faster.
That roebeck fight lasted over an hour because one red group was farming pugs inside the keep, and was unable to finish the fight and capture. I say unable, but it's most likely unwilling as they were probably having fun farming and they had the perfect situation, last emp keep so yellows would commit 100% to the defense, and the dc zerg was too stupid to capture the rest of the undefended map. So essentially that red group made the whole server unplayable for an hour. Our group logged off because we don't have dedicated healing spring spammers so it's actually game breaking when you need to break free 4 times before you can heal yourself.

Now some will say that's its the DC zerg's fault for stacking up when they could have left the EP capture, to which I respond that the organized groups are the ones with the brains, they should be the ones to act accordingly, and not the light attack spamming cp 140 who has no clue what's going on.
They could have either gone for a fast dethrone and leave to farm AD at their remaining keeps, or let DC capture and farm them afterwards, but no, they had to farm the keep for 1 hour because the AP/hour ratio was more important than having a playable server. And that's when and why ball groups trigger me the most.

Honestly, where do these ball groups even find the gall to act irresponsibility in a video game. If they are going to participate in an activity, designed to be an escape from the responsibilities of real life, they should at least have the bloody decency to play responsibly as a ball group and do what other people want them to bloody do.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Xai_Zi wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The only way to beat cooperation and coordination in this game is to punish those things. Removing a skill or making little nerfs here and there won't change anything. As always, I remain confused by people who see effective groups and get upset rather than impressed.

To be honest, I don't think people are mad at their efficiency.
I'd even dare say that their group format is not the most efficient in a lot of occasions. But then, efficiency scales on what you're aiming to do.

What pisses me off about ball groups is when they act irresponsibly.
Like 2 days ago, their was a tri faction fight at roebeck on vivec EU to try and dethrone AD during prime time. That single fight made the entire server lag, our group knew it was going to be painful so we went to faregyl to try and trigger some ADs so that the roe siege might be over faster.
That roebeck fight lasted over an hour because one red group was farming pugs inside the keep, and was unable to finish the fight and capture. I say unable, but it's most likely unwilling as they were probably having fun farming and they had the perfect situation, last emp keep so yellows would commit 100% to the defense, and the dc zerg was too stupid to capture the rest of the undefended map. So essentially that red group made the whole server unplayable for an hour. Our group logged off because we don't have dedicated healing spring spammers so it's actually game breaking when you need to break free 4 times before you can heal yourself.

Now some will say that's its the DC zerg's fault for stacking up when they could have left the EP capture, to which I respond that the organized groups are the ones with the brains, they should be the ones to act accordingly, and not the light attack spamming cp 140 who has no clue what's going on.
They could have either gone for a fast dethrone and leave to farm AD at their remaining keeps, or let DC capture and farm them afterwards, but no, they had to farm the keep for 1 hour because the AP/hour ratio was more important than having a playable server. And that's when and why ball groups trigger me the most.

Honestly, where do these ball groups even find the gall to act irresponsibility in a video game. If they are going to participate in an activity, designed to be an escape from the responsibilities of real life, they should at least have the bloody decency to play responsibly as a ball group and do what other people want them to bloody do.

Right? Like, they should obey the chain of command and listen to those 5-star Zone Generals, right? And they should definitely play on the enemies' terms, not their own. That's how this works, right?

I really isn't that hard to grasp, let me put it more simply :

I think we can all agree that if there was someone who was a major lag contributor and it was a known fact, we'd all tell that person to stop ruining the game for everyone else right?

Well I *personnaly* believe ball groups are the biggest contributors to lag (in certain situations). Whether you agree or not is irrelevant when it comes to understanding why I get pissed off at some ball groups.

What I expect is people arguing that ball groups don't lag and why they perceive it that way, not people telling me "we should play how we want hurr durr". The first option allows for debate and conversation while the second just shows you still can't process the biggest complaint in this game since 2015

I play in an organized raid, and yeah, the lag when I arrive at a heavily contested keep I'm trying ro capture or defend will knock me right out of the game probably 7 times out of 10. I've fought guild v Guild and sometimes the lag gets pretty hairy.

So yeah, the lag is annoying. Even as a member of an organized raid.

Thing is, what do you want me to do about it? I'm playing the game exactly as Cyrodiil is intended. Playing for objectives, fighting other guilds and organized raids, defending or capturing important keeps against large groups of enemy, all that good fun stuff for which Cyrodiil was designed.

If the servers can't handle that sort of combat anymore, that's on ZOS. I'm already letting them know what I think of it.

You don't have to like large scale combat and the lag it brings. I like large scale combat (as Cyrodiil was designed for) and even I don't enjoy the lag. But I put the blame on the people in charge of making sure this game works properly, not the people still trying to play the game as designed while it isn't working properly.

So essentially, the game lags in situations with a ton of players. Those situations usually happen around important objectives with one or more organized raids involved. What do you want us to do about it and why should an organized raid listen to you, when the only people who can actually fix the root of thw problem is ZOS? Complaining about ball groups causing lag is complaining about a symptom of the disease, and expecting other people to change up their playstyle to suit you (when they have no reason to know you from Adam, unless you have a sterling reputation as a zone general who makes good calls or you built a working relationship with the raid lead, either of which are far more effective methods of creating change in tactics). Its not actually a solution to the lag problem and it definitely doesn't actually fix Cyrodiil or support its intended design to support large scale combat between groups of 2 to 24 players, and in practice, often many more.

In short, I get why you don't enjoy ball groups hanging around, but I think that you've turned to trying to address a symptom of lag by telling ball groups how you think they should act because ZOS as the actual root of the problem seems ineffectual at solving it. I enjoy running in an organized raid, capturing and defending objectives, and fighting other raids, so I'm keeping what pressure I can on ZOS to fix the game so we can all play how we want, in a Cyrodiil that supports a lot of playstyles.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

.

Etaniel wrote: »

Xai_Zi wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The only way to beat cooperation and coordination in this game is to punish those things. Removing a skill or making little nerfs here and there won't change anything. As always, I remain confused by people who see effective groups and get upset rather than impressed.

To be honest, I don't think people are mad at their efficiency.
I'd even dare say that their group format is not the most efficient in a lot of occasions. But then, efficiency scales on what you're aiming to do.

What pisses me off about ball groups is when they act irresponsibly.
Like 2 days ago, their was a tri faction fight at roebeck on vivec EU to try and dethrone AD during prime time. That single fight made the entire server lag, our group knew it was going to be painful so we went to faregyl to try and trigger some ADs so that the roe siege might be over faster.
That roebeck fight lasted over an hour because one red group was farming pugs inside the keep, and was unable to finish the fight and capture. I say unable, but it's most likely unwilling as they were probably having fun farming and they had the perfect situation, last emp keep so yellows would commit 100% to the defense, and the dc zerg was too stupid to capture the rest of the undefended map. So essentially that red group made the whole server unplayable for an hour. Our group logged off because we don't have dedicated healing spring spammers so it's actually game breaking when you need to break free 4 times before you can heal yourself.

Now some will say that's its the DC zerg's fault for stacking up when they could have left the EP capture, to which I respond that the organized groups are the ones with the brains, they should be the ones to act accordingly, and not the light attack spamming cp 140 who has no clue what's going on.
They could have either gone for a fast dethrone and leave to farm AD at their remaining keeps, or let DC capture and farm them afterwards, but no, they had to farm the keep for 1 hour because the AP/hour ratio was more important than having a playable server. And that's when and why ball groups trigger me the most.

Honestly, where do these ball groups even find the gall to act irresponsibility in a video game. If they are going to participate in an activity, designed to be an escape from the responsibilities of real life, they should at least have the bloody decency to play responsibly as a ball group and do what other people want them to bloody do.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Xai_Zi wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The only way to beat cooperation and coordination in this game is to punish those things. Removing a skill or making little nerfs here and there won't change anything. As always, I remain confused by people who see effective groups and get upset rather than impressed.

To be honest, I don't think people are mad at their efficiency.
I'd even dare say that their group format is not the most efficient in a lot of occasions. But then, efficiency scales on what you're aiming to do.

What pisses me off about ball groups is when they act irresponsibly.
Like 2 days ago, their was a tri faction fight at roebeck on vivec EU to try and dethrone AD during prime time. That single fight made the entire server lag, our group knew it was going to be painful so we went to faregyl to try and trigger some ADs so that the roe siege might be over faster.
That roebeck fight lasted over an hour because one red group was farming pugs inside the keep, and was unable to finish the fight and capture. I say unable, but it's most likely unwilling as they were probably having fun farming and they had the perfect situation, last emp keep so yellows would commit 100% to the defense, and the dc zerg was too stupid to capture the rest of the undefended map. So essentially that red group made the whole server unplayable for an hour. Our group logged off because we don't have dedicated healing spring spammers so it's actually game breaking when you need to break free 4 times before you can heal yourself.

Now some will say that's its the DC zerg's fault for stacking up when they could have left the EP capture, to which I respond that the organized groups are the ones with the brains, they should be the ones to act accordingly, and not the light attack spamming cp 140 who has no clue what's going on.
They could have either gone for a fast dethrone and leave to farm AD at their remaining keeps, or let DC capture and farm them afterwards, but no, they had to farm the keep for 1 hour because the AP/hour ratio was more important than having a playable server. And that's when and why ball groups trigger me the most.

Honestly, where do these ball groups even find the gall to act irresponsibility in a video game. If they are going to participate in an activity, designed to be an escape from the responsibilities of real life, they should at least have the bloody decency to play responsibly as a ball group and do what other people want them to bloody do.

Right? Like, they should obey the chain of command and listen to those 5-star Zone Generals, right? And they should definitely play on the enemies' terms, not their own. That's how this works, right?

I really isn't that hard to grasp, let me put it more simply :

I think we can all agree that if there was someone who was a major lag contributor and it was a known fact, we'd all tell that person to stop ruining the game for everyone else right?

Well I *personnaly* believe ball groups are the biggest contributors to lag (in certain situations). Whether you agree or not is irrelevant when it comes to understanding why I get pissed off at some ball groups.

What I expect is people arguing that ball groups don't lag and why they perceive it that way, not people telling me "we should play how we want hurr durr". The first option allows for debate and conversation while the second just shows you still can't process the biggest complaint in this game since 2015

1) telling people to do something because you don't like it doesn't work. It's like when you have someone ganking you whilst you ride from one keep to another then getting upset because they don't stop (because they are playing the game how they wish to play it to achieve some fun for them). Personally I dislike people zerging a keep down with their whole faction which is why I try and fight those people doing it rather than just tell them they shouldn't.

2) people are saying that everything causes lag not that a specific type of fight doesn't. You could argue soloers cause lag when they pick at the back lines of zergs because it slows them down and thus creates more lag in the area. It's an irrelevant argument because the game is being played in methods which it supports and thus it should perform correctly. Blaming players for this is just wrong.

3) you have a point about group sizes vs total population. But unfortunately the game mechanics don't support or reward different play (they barely reward group play now at all).

ZOS_JesC · July 2018

Greetings, we've removed a few comments for baiting. Please keep the forum rules in mind when posting. Thank you.

Etaniel · July 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

.

Etaniel wrote: »

Xai_Zi wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The only way to beat cooperation and coordination in this game is to punish those things. Removing a skill or making little nerfs here and there won't change anything. As always, I remain confused by people who see effective groups and get upset rather than impressed.

To be honest, I don't think people are mad at their efficiency.
I'd even dare say that their group format is not the most efficient in a lot of occasions. But then, efficiency scales on what you're aiming to do.

What pisses me off about ball groups is when they act irresponsibly.
Like 2 days ago, their was a tri faction fight at roebeck on vivec EU to try and dethrone AD during prime time. That single fight made the entire server lag, our group knew it was going to be painful so we went to faregyl to try and trigger some ADs so that the roe siege might be over faster.
That roebeck fight lasted over an hour because one red group was farming pugs inside the keep, and was unable to finish the fight and capture. I say unable, but it's most likely unwilling as they were probably having fun farming and they had the perfect situation, last emp keep so yellows would commit 100% to the defense, and the dc zerg was too stupid to capture the rest of the undefended map. So essentially that red group made the whole server unplayable for an hour. Our group logged off because we don't have dedicated healing spring spammers so it's actually game breaking when you need to break free 4 times before you can heal yourself.

Now some will say that's its the DC zerg's fault for stacking up when they could have left the EP capture, to which I respond that the organized groups are the ones with the brains, they should be the ones to act accordingly, and not the light attack spamming cp 140 who has no clue what's going on.
They could have either gone for a fast dethrone and leave to farm AD at their remaining keeps, or let DC capture and farm them afterwards, but no, they had to farm the keep for 1 hour because the AP/hour ratio was more important than having a playable server. And that's when and why ball groups trigger me the most.

Honestly, where do these ball groups even find the gall to act irresponsibility in a video game. If they are going to participate in an activity, designed to be an escape from the responsibilities of real life, they should at least have the bloody decency to play responsibly as a ball group and do what other people want them to bloody do.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Xai_Zi wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The only way to beat cooperation and coordination in this game is to punish those things. Removing a skill or making little nerfs here and there won't change anything. As always, I remain confused by people who see effective groups and get upset rather than impressed.

To be honest, I don't think people are mad at their efficiency.
I'd even dare say that their group format is not the most efficient in a lot of occasions. But then, efficiency scales on what you're aiming to do.

What pisses me off about ball groups is when they act irresponsibly.
Like 2 days ago, their was a tri faction fight at roebeck on vivec EU to try and dethrone AD during prime time. That single fight made the entire server lag, our group knew it was going to be painful so we went to faregyl to try and trigger some ADs so that the roe siege might be over faster.
That roebeck fight lasted over an hour because one red group was farming pugs inside the keep, and was unable to finish the fight and capture. I say unable, but it's most likely unwilling as they were probably having fun farming and they had the perfect situation, last emp keep so yellows would commit 100% to the defense, and the dc zerg was too stupid to capture the rest of the undefended map. So essentially that red group made the whole server unplayable for an hour. Our group logged off because we don't have dedicated healing spring spammers so it's actually game breaking when you need to break free 4 times before you can heal yourself.

Now some will say that's its the DC zerg's fault for stacking up when they could have left the EP capture, to which I respond that the organized groups are the ones with the brains, they should be the ones to act accordingly, and not the light attack spamming cp 140 who has no clue what's going on.
They could have either gone for a fast dethrone and leave to farm AD at their remaining keeps, or let DC capture and farm them afterwards, but no, they had to farm the keep for 1 hour because the AP/hour ratio was more important than having a playable server. And that's when and why ball groups trigger me the most.

Honestly, where do these ball groups even find the gall to act irresponsibility in a video game. If they are going to participate in an activity, designed to be an escape from the responsibilities of real life, they should at least have the bloody decency to play responsibly as a ball group and do what other people want them to bloody do.

Right? Like, they should obey the chain of command and listen to those 5-star Zone Generals, right? And they should definitely play on the enemies' terms, not their own. That's how this works, right?

I really isn't that hard to grasp, let me put it more simply :

I think we can all agree that if there was someone who was a major lag contributor and it was a known fact, we'd all tell that person to stop ruining the game for everyone else right?

Well I *personnaly* believe ball groups are the biggest contributors to lag (in certain situations). Whether you agree or not is irrelevant when it comes to understanding why I get pissed off at some ball groups.

What I expect is people arguing that ball groups don't lag and why they perceive it that way, not people telling me "we should play how we want hurr durr". The first option allows for debate and conversation while the second just shows you still can't process the biggest complaint in this game since 2015

1) telling people to do something because you don't like it doesn't work. It's like when you have someone ganking you whilst you ride from one keep to another then getting upset because they don't stop (because they are playing the game how they wish to play it to achieve some fun for them). Personally I dislike people zerging a keep down with their whole faction which is why I try and fight those people doing it rather than just tell them they shouldn't.

2) people are saying that everything causes lag not that a specific type of fight doesn't. You could argue soloers cause lag when they pick at the back lines of zergs because it slows them down and thus creates more lag in the area. It's an irrelevant argument because the game is being played in methods which it supports and thus it should perform correctly. Blaming players for this is just wrong.

3) you have a point about group sizes vs total population. But unfortunately the game mechanics don't support or reward different play (they barely reward group play now at all).

Yeah a ball gorup is the least efficient way of getting ap, damn game mechanics

Couple days ago our 3 man group helped a zerg dethrone an emp vs another zerg with both pop locked. The fight took a while, there was plenty of siege and it was something like 50 v 50. Any lag? nope, and guess what no balll groups involved, and I'm pretty sure there wasn't one active on the map at all. It's insane that we always come to the same conclusion no? Ever since the very first ball group using group stacking mechanics to the max on the EU server, SWAT, i'm 100% convinced about it, ball groups are a way larger contributor to server lag than faction zergs.

Once again, I don't care about the ball group play style in itself, I don't give a crap if I get stomped by one, people can enjoy any and every type of gameplay *until* it impacts server performance, and then I get loud about it because it's our jobs as players to do something. Saying Zos is responsible, posting thousands of forums posts blaming them telling them to get their act together has shown to serve *zero* purpose over the last 4 years. We get one acknowledgment message from Matt Firor in 4 years, yeeehaaaw.
Basically the only thing ZOS could do at this point is annihilate the playstyle all together by changing game mechanics. And we all know that these forums have seen countless threads of propositions to nerfs these groups into oblivion.Then we get the answer : ball groups can overcome these challenges because they are so elite, so it's pointless, and second : all playstyles are fine. And since I've come to agree with the second point I'd rather not erase the play style, but ask for those groups to do something about it instead.

And if it was a server crash instead of lag ? Would you relog and crash the server again?

Anyways, I've debated about that stuff for 3 years on these forums, this was the last time, people are more interested in farming AP whatever the cost rather than having a playable game. Enjoy the next 10 years or blaming zos for the server lag

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

@Etaniel ball groups aren't there to farm AP. They are there to challenge themselves in a fight in a different way to dueling or 1-4vXing.
If they wanted to purely farm it wouldn't be efficient to run in the way they do.

It's funny how common a misconception it is.

I've been at fights where its been ballgroup vs ballgroup and had no lag. So must be the pugs or smallscalers right?

It's actually not your job as a player to do anything other than decide if you want to play the game or not and how to spend your money. It is however ZoS's job to make us want to play.

The point is that when the game is dumbed down to the point where groups are removed the only fights will be zerg vs zerg at a keep. I'm sure you won't find that so fun either. Telling people to "stop enjoying the game because it hurts your experience" isn't really a viable argument.

Performance in game was fine up until the lighting patch. When they made springs cause fps drops and ever since then it's been bad (has got better due to reduced pop caps and some changes)

LegendaryMage · July 2018

Etaniel wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

.

Etaniel wrote: »

Xai_Zi wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The only way to beat cooperation and coordination in this game is to punish those things. Removing a skill or making little nerfs here and there won't change anything. As always, I remain confused by people who see effective groups and get upset rather than impressed.

To be honest, I don't think people are mad at their efficiency.
I'd even dare say that their group format is not the most efficient in a lot of occasions. But then, efficiency scales on what you're aiming to do.

What pisses me off about ball groups is when they act irresponsibly.
Like 2 days ago, their was a tri faction fight at roebeck on vivec EU to try and dethrone AD during prime time. That single fight made the entire server lag, our group knew it was going to be painful so we went to faregyl to try and trigger some ADs so that the roe siege might be over faster.
That roebeck fight lasted over an hour because one red group was farming pugs inside the keep, and was unable to finish the fight and capture. I say unable, but it's most likely unwilling as they were probably having fun farming and they had the perfect situation, last emp keep so yellows would commit 100% to the defense, and the dc zerg was too stupid to capture the rest of the undefended map. So essentially that red group made the whole server unplayable for an hour. Our group logged off because we don't have dedicated healing spring spammers so it's actually game breaking when you need to break free 4 times before you can heal yourself.

Now some will say that's its the DC zerg's fault for stacking up when they could have left the EP capture, to which I respond that the organized groups are the ones with the brains, they should be the ones to act accordingly, and not the light attack spamming cp 140 who has no clue what's going on.
They could have either gone for a fast dethrone and leave to farm AD at their remaining keeps, or let DC capture and farm them afterwards, but no, they had to farm the keep for 1 hour because the AP/hour ratio was more important than having a playable server. And that's when and why ball groups trigger me the most.

Honestly, where do these ball groups even find the gall to act irresponsibility in a video game. If they are going to participate in an activity, designed to be an escape from the responsibilities of real life, they should at least have the bloody decency to play responsibly as a ball group and do what other people want them to bloody do.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Xai_Zi wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The only way to beat cooperation and coordination in this game is to punish those things. Removing a skill or making little nerfs here and there won't change anything. As always, I remain confused by people who see effective groups and get upset rather than impressed.

To be honest, I don't think people are mad at their efficiency.
I'd even dare say that their group format is not the most efficient in a lot of occasions. But then, efficiency scales on what you're aiming to do.

What pisses me off about ball groups is when they act irresponsibly.
Like 2 days ago, their was a tri faction fight at roebeck on vivec EU to try and dethrone AD during prime time. That single fight made the entire server lag, our group knew it was going to be painful so we went to faregyl to try and trigger some ADs so that the roe siege might be over faster.
That roebeck fight lasted over an hour because one red group was farming pugs inside the keep, and was unable to finish the fight and capture. I say unable, but it's most likely unwilling as they were probably having fun farming and they had the perfect situation, last emp keep so yellows would commit 100% to the defense, and the dc zerg was too stupid to capture the rest of the undefended map. So essentially that red group made the whole server unplayable for an hour. Our group logged off because we don't have dedicated healing spring spammers so it's actually game breaking when you need to break free 4 times before you can heal yourself.

Now some will say that's its the DC zerg's fault for stacking up when they could have left the EP capture, to which I respond that the organized groups are the ones with the brains, they should be the ones to act accordingly, and not the light attack spamming cp 140 who has no clue what's going on.
They could have either gone for a fast dethrone and leave to farm AD at their remaining keeps, or let DC capture and farm them afterwards, but no, they had to farm the keep for 1 hour because the AP/hour ratio was more important than having a playable server. And that's when and why ball groups trigger me the most.

Honestly, where do these ball groups even find the gall to act irresponsibility in a video game. If they are going to participate in an activity, designed to be an escape from the responsibilities of real life, they should at least have the bloody decency to play responsibly as a ball group and do what other people want them to bloody do.

Right? Like, they should obey the chain of command and listen to those 5-star Zone Generals, right? And they should definitely play on the enemies' terms, not their own. That's how this works, right?

I really isn't that hard to grasp, let me put it more simply :

I think we can all agree that if there was someone who was a major lag contributor and it was a known fact, we'd all tell that person to stop ruining the game for everyone else right?

Well I *personnaly* believe ball groups are the biggest contributors to lag (in certain situations). Whether you agree or not is irrelevant when it comes to understanding why I get pissed off at some ball groups.

What I expect is people arguing that ball groups don't lag and why they perceive it that way, not people telling me "we should play how we want hurr durr". The first option allows for debate and conversation while the second just shows you still can't process the biggest complaint in this game since 2015

1) telling people to do something because you don't like it doesn't work. It's like when you have someone ganking you whilst you ride from one keep to another then getting upset because they don't stop (because they are playing the game how they wish to play it to achieve some fun for them). Personally I dislike people zerging a keep down with their whole faction which is why I try and fight those people doing it rather than just tell them they shouldn't.

2) people are saying that everything causes lag not that a specific type of fight doesn't. You could argue soloers cause lag when they pick at the back lines of zergs because it slows them down and thus creates more lag in the area. It's an irrelevant argument because the game is being played in methods which it supports and thus it should perform correctly. Blaming players for this is just wrong.

3) you have a point about group sizes vs total population. But unfortunately the game mechanics don't support or reward different play (they barely reward group play now at all).

Yeah a ball gorup is the least efficient way of getting ap, damn game mechanics

Couple days ago our 3 man group helped a zerg dethrone an emp vs another zerg with both pop locked. The fight took a while, there was plenty of siege and it was something like 50 v 50. Any lag? nope, and guess what no balll groups involved, and I'm pretty sure there wasn't one active on the map at all. It's insane that we always come to the same conclusion no? Ever since the very first ball group using group stacking mechanics to the max on the EU server, SWAT, i'm 100% convinced about it, ball groups are a way larger contributor to server lag than faction zergs.

Once again, I don't care about the ball group play style in itself, I don't give a crap if I get stomped by one, people can enjoy any and every type of gameplay *until* it impacts server performance, and then I get loud about it because it's our jobs as players to do something. Saying Zos is responsible, posting thousands of forums posts blaming them telling them to get their act together has shown to serve *zero* purpose over the last 4 years. We get one acknowledgment message from Matt Firor in 4 years, yeeehaaaw.
Basically the only thing ZOS could do at this point is annihilate the playstyle all together by changing game mechanics. And we all know that these forums have seen countless threads of propositions to nerfs these groups into oblivion.Then we get the answer : ball groups can overcome these challenges because they are so elite, so it's pointless, and second : all playstyles are fine. And since I've come to agree with the second point I'd rather not erase the play style, but ask for those groups to do something about it instead.

And if it was a server crash instead of lag ? Would you relog and crash the server again?

Anyways, I've debated about that stuff for 3 years on these forums, this was the last time, people are more interested in farming AP whatever the cost rather than having a playable game. Enjoy the next 10 years or blaming zos for the server lag

Ballgroups inflate server-side calculations to the extremes. When the conditions are right (ex, full campaign), it's enough to push it over the top. At that point the server just cannot handle it anymore. It's too much ability-spam to put it simply.

Also, when you have a decently large ballgroup running around and collecting randoms, this creates highly unnatural fighting scenarios where abilities are being spammed non-stop and barely anyone is dying for prolonged periods of time.

In fact, it gets even worse when the ballgroup starts to counter-spam defensive abilities creating a never-ending cycle of artificial resource drain. Even in big zerg vs zerg battles, players will be dying often and respawning away from the fight, giving the server a break that it needs. Under these conditions, it does not happen.

And even when the ballgroup starts wiping players (usually when their ulties are ready), it doesn't help because the damage is too high already and the server is way over its capacity to handle stuff properly.

Now one could argue that this is true for any particular playstyle, but in practical scenarios, only ballgroups are capable of quickly escalating performance issues.

The workload goes on and on and on until the ballgroup either completely wipes, or like back in the days, causes a rollback or a complete server crash (which ZOS seems to have eradicated for the most part for now).

The meta promotes this as well, notice for example how most ZS players run around 30k+ HP. Each one of them individually hits like a wet noodle on their own, but together with a bunch of AOEs and ultimates it just becomes enough.

The server doesn't care if a player is achieving something or not, the server has to process it all anyway.

It's easy for anyone who has a basic understanding on how abilities work to grasp why the servers are struggling after a point. The lingering effects are probably very problematic, and ballgroups are notorious for spamming those too.

With that being said, I don't want anyone not to enjoy their preferred playstyle, but if I had to make a decision for overall better performance for everyone, or a couple of guilds running around in tightly packed formations because they think they're Spartans or something, the decision would be obvious.

frozywozy · July 2018

Etaniel wrote: »

Once again, I don't care about the ball group play style in itself, I don't give a crap if I get stomped by one, people can enjoy any and every type of gameplay *until* it impacts server performance, and then I get loud about it because it's our jobs as players to do something. Saying Zos is responsible, posting thousands of forums posts blaming them telling them to get their act together has shown to serve *zero* purpose over the last 4 years. We get one acknowledgment message from Matt Firor in 4 years, yeeehaaaw.

I agree 100% about what you said here. That's why most people who have played this game since release competitively and actively understand that running a group with the actual max group size is not an option and decide to cap their group at 16 instead of 24 to help server performances. People realized that 16 is the perfect balance between being able to counter massive numbers thrown at us while limiting the lag caused as much as possible.

What is your suggestion exactly @Etaniel? What would be a convenient max group size? Before you answer this question, please consider all the aspects of the question. Do you think that a group of X members could be able to capture a well defended objective? If the answer is no, do you advice them to stack with other guilds in a massive guilds VS guilds in the same area to capture said objective?

All that sounds boring af, at least for me. Until they decide to release battlegrounds (real battlegrounds and not the arena-like style we have right now) with 10-16players on each side, we are going to seek our own fights away from our faction as much as possible & too bad for them if the enemy team has to throw 50 players at us instead of stepping up their game play and :

1) min/max a nightblade and bomb us at the proper time
2) Chain / Frozen Gate players out of the ball

Stop blaming a 16men raid for lagging the server. Blame players for not using the tools to break them.

LegendaryMage · July 2018

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO The lighting patch had nothing to do with latency, it was a purely FPS issue. Whoever tells you that ESO didn't have server performance issues before that either didn't play back then, or has a very bad memory.

ESO's lag was the worst in betas, well before the infamous lighting patch, at that point it was easy 30-50 seconds between abilities firing off. Lag has always been an issue for ESO.

Sometimes it didn't seem so because playstyles were different back then, the game was more instant action oriented and players kept dying faster, which is not bad for the server of course.

So anyone who kept pilling up bodies back then was doing everyone else a favor really.

If ballgroups fought in a different way than they do, they wouldn't cause so much lag. It's the running around, charging ultimates, spamming defensive abilities while randoms keep ever-growing around them spamming offensive abilities etc. but no one really doing anything other than stalling.That's the problem.

frozywozy · July 2018

LegendaryMage wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO The lighting patch had nothing to do with latency, it was a purely FPS issue. Whoever tells you that ESO didn't have server performance issues before that either didn't play back then, or has a very bad memory

The lightning patch introduced the system to monitor bots with massive server-side checks.

montiferus · July 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@Etaniel ball groups aren't there to farm AP. They are there to challenge themselves in a fight in a different way

Not on Xbox they aren’t. They typically comprise a large group of people who could not play on their own or in a smaller group so they joined a bigger one for easy AP with no care to how it affects the server.

IDK maybe PC has more “noble” ball groups but Xbox NA sure as hell does not. Nobody wants a fair fight on our platform. I have many 3-5v15+ fights to prove it.

LegendaryMage · July 2018

frozywozy wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO The lighting patch had nothing to do with latency, it was a purely FPS issue. Whoever tells you that ESO didn't have server performance issues before that either didn't play back then, or has a very bad memory

The lightning patch introduced the system to monitor bots with massive server-side checks.

Lag was just as bad before that. And that didn't do anything anyway, just the other day I found a bot train in Shadowfen and ran a bit with them just for the laughs.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

LegendaryMage wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO The lighting patch had nothing to do with latency, it was a purely FPS issue. Whoever tells you that ESO didn't have server performance issues before that either didn't play back then, or has a very bad memory.

ESO's lag was the worst in betas, well before the infamous lighting patch, at that point it was easy 30-50 seconds between abilities firing off. Lag has always been an issue for ESO.

Sometimes it didn't seem so because playstyles were different back then, the game was more instant action oriented and players kept dying faster, which is not bad for the server of course.

So anyone who kept pilling up bodies back then was doing everyone else a favor really.

If ballgroups fought in a different way than they do, they wouldn't cause so much lag. It's the running around, charging ultimates, spamming defensive abilities while randoms keep ever-growing around them spamming offensive abilities etc. but no one really doing anything other than stalling.That's the problem.

You are simply wrong. I played back then I remember exactly how banner forests looked like or the dawnbreaker white screen. Meteor fall damage in latency and playing in a group prior to the lighting patch and after.

I would say been there and got the t-shirt but I guess we shouldn't bring tshirts into the conversations or this arena might get out of hand

Derra · July 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@Etaniel ball groups aren't there to farm AP. They are there to challenge themselves in a fight in a different way to dueling or 1-4vXing. .

Wanna bet that most do it to farm ap - or because it´s the only way to play the game and have something remotely resembling fun when performance goes to crap?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@Etaniel ball groups aren't there to farm AP. They are there to challenge themselves in a fight in a different way to dueling or 1-4vXing. .

Wanna bet that most do it to farm ap - or because it´s the only way to play the game and have something remotely resembling fun when performance goes to crap?

Its super ineffective as a way of purely farming AP. AP is more of a byproduct of finding a good fight but equally someone could make more by other means (as bleakers RP taught us). When groups fight other groups they generally don't make much AP, when those fights are not available then most would rather make a decent amount of AP then just stop playing for sure.

The fun part sure, most people wouldn't play a game if its not fun.

dtsharples · July 2018

Spamming 3 buttons and waiting on someone else's orders is not fun XD

And before you try to tell me that isn't how it works.
I recently took a trial spot in a Vivec PVP ball group just to be sure they are the same as I remembered.
And they are exactly the same as they always were

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Derra · July 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@Etaniel ball groups aren't there to farm AP. They are there to challenge themselves in a fight in a different way to dueling or 1-4vXing. .

Wanna bet that most do it to farm ap - or because it´s the only way to play the game and have something remotely resembling fun when performance goes to crap?

Its super ineffective as a way of purely farming AP. AP is more of a byproduct of finding a good fight but equally someone could make more by other means (as bleakers RP taught us). When groups fight other groups they generally don't make much AP, when those fights are not available then most would rather make a decent amount of AP then just stop playing for sure.

The fun part sure, most people wouldn't play a game if its not fun.

So since on EU almost all groups avoid fighting each other for extended periods of time or at all - they mostly do it for ap?

Sanct16 · July 2018

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@Etaniel ball groups aren't there to farm AP. They are there to challenge themselves in a fight in a different way to dueling or 1-4vXing. .

Wanna bet that most do it to farm ap - or because it´s the only way to play the game and have something remotely resembling fun when performance goes to crap?

Its super ineffective as a way of purely farming AP. AP is more of a byproduct of finding a good fight but equally someone could make more by other means (as bleakers RP taught us). When groups fight other groups they generally don't make much AP, when those fights are not available then most would rather make a decent amount of AP then just stop playing for sure.

The fun part sure, most people wouldn't play a game if its not fun.

So since on EU almost all groups avoid fighting each other for extended periods of time or at all - they mostly do it for ap?

Because I read this statement couple times already from you and Etaniel, I would like to say something about it.

While it might seem like groups are "avoiding" each other, there are other factors as well. First of all it is quite hard to find fair fights without pugs. If you're 12v12 but one side has 8 pugs it's not really fair anymore. So if I see that another guild is fighting EP pugs I usually just leave them . If you're running a 4 man squad on DC and come across another 4 man squad which is fighting DC pugs I'm sure you would also "avoid" them.

Another issue is that gvg fights between groups are generally quite onesided. If you repeat the same fight without changing groupsetups (which isnt possible in a primetime raid with queues etc), one team will win 9 out of 10 fights. So even if you get a gvg fight it gets rather stale after some rounds. Imagine you duel some guy and you kill him easily but he wants to keep going again and again. Probably at some point you'd rather have a more challenging fight instead. Same if you constantly lose because the other guy has better gear (in case of groups: more people) for example, you'd probably want to stop at some point.

And well of course the last problem is the general lack of competitive groups. Majority of the groups are just easier to kill than pugs because they stack up instead of spreading everywhere. So yeah no point really. If you come across some Decimation Elite 4 man group I guess you wouldn't be super keen to fight them repeatedly.

(And before the discussion derails, if anything of what I said isnt true for "you" in person, just read it as a general thing)

Sanct16 · July 2018

dtsharples wrote: »

Spamming 3 buttons and waiting on someone else's orders is not fun XD

And before you try to tell me that isn't how it works.
I recently took a trial spot in a Vivec PVP ball group just to be sure they are the same as I remembered.
And they are exactly the same as they always were
[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

How many buttons does a CS:GO pro press? 1? Must be easy as ***.

MLRPZ · July 2018

Sanct16 wrote: »

dtsharples wrote: »

Spamming 3 buttons and waiting on someone else's orders is not fun XD

And before you try to tell me that isn't how it works.
I recently took a trial spot in a Vivec PVP ball group just to be sure they are the same as I remembered.
And they are exactly the same as they always were
[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

How many buttons does a CS:GO pro press? 1? Must be easy as ***.

baited

frozywozy · July 2018

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@Etaniel ball groups aren't there to farm AP. They are there to challenge themselves in a fight in a different way to dueling or 1-4vXing. .

Wanna bet that most do it to farm ap - or because it´s the only way to play the game and have something remotely resembling fun when performance goes to crap?

Killing people is one of the worst way to farm AP nowadays. I can get up to 130k ap/h zerg surfing. Broken? yes, pretty much.

Derra · July 2018

Sanct16 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@Etaniel ball groups aren't there to farm AP. They are there to challenge themselves in a fight in a different way to dueling or 1-4vXing. .

Wanna bet that most do it to farm ap - or because it´s the only way to play the game and have something remotely resembling fun when performance goes to crap?

Its super ineffective as a way of purely farming AP. AP is more of a byproduct of finding a good fight but equally someone could make more by other means (as bleakers RP taught us). When groups fight other groups they generally don't make much AP, when those fights are not available then most would rather make a decent amount of AP then just stop playing for sure.

The fun part sure, most people wouldn't play a game if its not fun.

So since on EU almost all groups avoid fighting each other for extended periods of time or at all - they mostly do it for ap?

Because I read this statement couple times already from you and Etaniel, I would like to say something about it.

While it might seem like groups are "avoiding" each other, there are other factors as well. First of all it is quite hard to find fair fights without pugs. If you're 12v12 but one side has 8 pugs it's not really fair anymore. So if I see that another guild is fighting EP pugs I usually just leave them . If you're running a 4 man squad on DC and come across another 4 man squad which is fighting DC pugs I'm sure you would also "avoid" them.

Another issue is that gvg fights between groups are generally quite onesided. If you repeat the same fight without changing groupsetups (which isnt possible in a primetime raid with queues etc), one team will win 9 out of 10 fights. So even if you get a gvg fight it gets rather stale after some rounds. Imagine you duel some guy and you kill him easily but he wants to keep going again and again. Probably at some point you'd rather have a more challenging fight instead. Same if you constantly lose because the other guy has better gear (in case of groups: more people) for example, you'd probably want to stop at some point.

And well of course the last problem is the general lack of competitive groups. Majority of the groups are just easier to kill than pugs because they stack up instead of spreading everywhere. So yeah no point really. If you come across some Decimation Elite 4 man group I guess you wouldn't be super keen to fight them repeatedly.

(And before the discussion derails, if anything of what I said isnt true for "you" in person, just read it as a general thing)

I believe all of what you state and get the reasons why groups don´t fight each other frequently.
However the end result remains - groups mainly do in fact NOT fight each other but farm pugs for ap (smallgrps do the same to some extend - but realisticly we can´t know bc there´s even less smallgrps in cyro than large ones due to performance issues).

There is no judgement in etaniels or my statements about the observed behavior (atleast i believe it to be true for etaniel aswell) - it´s merely factual (as you admit to some extend yourself).

In the end i believe that the contribution of ballgrps to lag on top of the current state of ballgrp meta + stale competetive scene due to the reasons you stated yourself and accompanied by grpsize in relation to campaign cap are IMO good reasons why current cap for largegroups should be lowered to atleast 12 and developing goal should be to impair functionality of these stack on crown trains further.
They no longer add anything neccessary or positive to the game but on the other hand create immense frustration and undesireable gameplay experiences for their (mainly) pug opponents.

Derra · July 2018

MLRPZ wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

dtsharples wrote: »

Spamming 3 buttons and waiting on someone else's orders is not fun XD

And before you try to tell me that isn't how it works.
I recently took a trial spot in a Vivec PVP ball group just to be sure they are the same as I remembered.
And they are exactly the same as they always were
[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

How many buttons does a CS:GO pro press? 1? Must be easy as ***.

baited

can´t wait for eso to require good aiming to be competetive + headshots and no aoe indicators anymore. oh wait no i´d be crying in a corner bc i´m horrible at that.

Derra · July 2018

edit: doublepost bc stupid.

MLRPZ · July 2018

I wouldn't mind lowering group size, I believe 12 or 14 would be the best to cap it to.
But, I lost every shed of hope I had in the dev team so I really doubt we'll see any change

Markrox · July 2018

Can't believe people still playing this way after years. It was boring as fook in 2014 with guilds standing on top of each other spamming fragmented shield lagging the server out. And regardless of justifications, the fact 99% of the time you chase pug groups who don't even know they're in pvp is insane, that would wear thin faster than Bless Online went to ***

Munavar · July 2018

Disclaimer: Below is conjecture as I have not seen or been involved with ESO’s coding.

The issue is not ball groups beyond the elevated stress of having a higher than average number of abilities being used at the same ‘instant’. Having 24 single players near each other will still be generating nearly the same number of calculations. There just is not the ‘3 … 2 … 1 … Go!’ surge aspect.

I speculate there are three main issues contributing to lag which coordinated groups exasperate:

The initial design trusted the client and unloaded some of the calculations. This has been adjusted over the years but has added to the ‘burden’ placed on the servers that the initial design did not take into consideration.
The introduction of mobile AoE DoT abilities. Each character’s ‘step’ causes the calculations to be reevaluated due to reposition of the area.
‘Proc’ sets have become too complex with conditionals instead of a based chance at the time of skill use.
For comparison:
- a. Armor of the Seducer set has a flat 8% cost reduction
- b. Magnus’ Gift set has a single check of 8% to negate the cost
- c. Sload’s Semblance set has a single check of 10% but is also checked on each ‘tick’ of a DoT as well as having to track if the attacker has applied the debuff on a specific target for a running 6 second cycle.

Irylia · July 2018

Yo is my game bugged ?
I add a fifth person to group and every time without fail it tells me “are you sure? You will now be a large group”

Am I zerging? Am I the problem?

Irylia · July 2018

frozywozy wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Once again, I don't care about the ball group play style in itself, I don't give a crap if I get stomped by one, people can enjoy any and every type of gameplay *until* it impacts server performance, and then I get loud about it because it's our jobs as players to do something. Saying Zos is responsible, posting thousands of forums posts blaming them telling them to get their act together has shown to serve *zero* purpose over the last 4 years. We get one acknowledgment message from Matt Firor in 4 years, yeeehaaaw.

I agree 100% about what you said here. That's why most people who have played this game since release competitively and actively understand that running a group with the actual max group size is not an option and decide to cap their group at 16 instead of 24 to help server performances. People realized that 16 is the perfect balance between being able to counter massive numbers thrown at us while limiting the lag caused as much as possible.

What is your suggestion exactly @Etaniel? What would be a convenient max group size? Before you answer this question, please consider all the aspects of the question. Do you think that a group of X members could be able to capture a well defended objective? If the answer is no, do you advice them to stack with other guilds in a massive guilds VS guilds in the same area to capture said objective?

All that sounds boring af, at least for me. Until they decide to release battlegrounds (real battlegrounds and not the arena-like style we have right now) with 10-16players on each side, we are going to seek our own fights away from our faction as much as possible & too bad for them if the enemy team has to throw 50 players at us instead of stepping up their game play and :

1) min/max a nightblade and bomb us at the proper time
2) Chain / Frozen Gate players out of the ball

Stop blaming a 16men raid for lagging the server. Blame players for not using the tools to break them.

I don’t think you drop to 16 with lag and the server in mind. You do it because you then have a way to justify yourselves as not being a zerg while also not really having to push any micro skill.

Why not drop to 8 or under?
Destro vd stacking is far too easy.

dtsharples wrote: »

Spamming 3 buttons and waiting on someone else's orders is not fun XD

And before you try to tell me that isn't how it works.
I recently took a trial spot in a Vivec PVP ball group just to be sure they are the same as I remembered.
And they are exactly the same as they always were
[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Lmao *hype man*

VaranisArano · July 2018

Irylia wrote: »

Yo is my game bugged ?
I add a fifth person to group and every time without fail it tells me “are you sure? You will now be a large group”

Am I zerging? Am I the problem?

The game is telling you that to make sure that you realize your group is too big for 4-man group activities like group dungeons. Given that the Alliance War groupfinder works for groups of 2 to 24 players, you're fine. Except for the the people who's definition of a zerg equals "one more person than is in my group." I've been called a zerg when I was in a group of 12 people and no extra PUGs around, so YMMV.