DDuke wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The only things that are unblockable in a Sorc burst combo is Rune Cage and Curse. You can block or dodge Frags. You can block or Dodge Wrath/Fury. You can block and dodge Overload. And you can block Meteor (which isn't even a Sorc ultimate).

eeeee lol?
normal hit from skill ofc you can block or dodge but if you get hit you cant block or even dodge passive mages wrath waiting 4 sec to proc at 20% health and this is instagib always to everyone nontankly build under 20k health

EDIT: and about overload..you know someone can just gather ulti to 200+ and then literraly spam overload on you ehere about dodge you wont have even enough stamina to dodge spam that many times in medium at how many strikes can have this sorc fo overload especially on noncp without additional reduction to dodge outside traits

If you are running anything with health under 20k your are going to get rammed by everything in pvp not just sorcs. You need at least 25k health. Anything with that low health is probably a ganking build anyways and you're just mad that you can't one shot a sorc with their shields up.

Bull***, you can survive anything in game with <20k health pool if you play well & react properly to things.

See a Leap? Block.
Someone used gap closer? Dodge roll if stamblade & block+dodge roll forward (through opponent) if another class.
Soul Assault? Block & cloak after 2s or block & drop a Ballista for a free kill

etc etc.


Rune Cage is the only exception that you cannot counter by any means available (apart from building as a tank) as it disables reaction based defenses.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't referring to single attacks. One properly placed cc of any type and you're toast with less than 20k health. And if you can't cc break rune in a 1v1 vs a sorc bad resource management was the cause of your death. In 1vx you were most likely going to die anyways regardless if the sorc was there or not.

its reffering to every medium build lol, going in medium you arnt tankly so everything will you eat if you are noob, if you are experienced you know how and what work and when run awya or from which got out fast and you dont have resource management problem, its just sorc noncounterable combo

medium isnt that tankly as heavy + in heavy you have bonuses to more max health and healing recevied if you didnt know before, thats why any medium armor user is fast melting if you catch him and he is unable to dodge/LoS your attacks

It's very much counterable.

Edziu wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The only things that are unblockable in a Sorc burst combo is Rune Cage and Curse. You can block or dodge Frags. You can block or Dodge Wrath/Fury. You can block and dodge Overload. And you can block Meteor (which isn't even a Sorc ultimate).

eeeee lol?
normal hit from skill ofc you can block or dodge but if you get hit you cant block or even dodge passive mages wrath waiting 4 sec to proc at 20% health and this is instagib always to everyone nontankly build under 20k health

EDIT: and about overload..you know someone can just gather ulti to 200+ and then literraly spam overload on you ehere about dodge you wont have even enough stamina to dodge spam that many times in medium at how many strikes can have this sorc fo overload especially on noncp without additional reduction to dodge outside traits

If you are running anything with health under 20k your are going to get rammed by everything in pvp not just sorcs. You need at least 25k health. Anything with that low health is probably a ganking build anyways and you're just mad that you can't one shot a sorc with their shields up.

nope you are wrong
I mainly play with just 16k health stamblade on noncp withou impene but with well fitted and I have no problem with most of things in pvp

only thing which can instagib me is nonblocked meteor, dk leap (but those are ults, ok) and ofc sorc amges wrath, annyoing as hell, once drop jsut to 20% hp where in many many times I still ave option to survive but against magsorc with this its always instagib with not to mention how his main burst is comming from unblockable and undodgable skills, none of rest classes can achieve burst with time of 1-2 sec with that many skill at once which are also unblockable and undodgable

so no, even when I running much under 20k health I dont getting rammed by everything when I know how and what is working
problem which I (and ofc not only I) have is nocounterable combo which sorc got after unecessary big nerfs to crystal frag where we had option with counter to his combo

Like I said gank build confirmed.

if I was gank build I will have stacked to max weapon damage and stamine isntead of 1.5k magica regen and 2.8k stam regen with only 30k stam and 3.5k weapon dmg buffed

most people jsut invest more to weapon dmg and max stats, I invested more to regens becasue I jsut cant play even with very high stats if I dont have regens and I dont think this could be gank build with thal low stacked damage and invested into high both stat regens at once

EDIT: and btw you never written you even think Im on gank build

Most nightblades I personally know that play the rogue/ganker type run bone pirate mixed with shackle. Nightblades sacrifice very little in burst by running multiple sustain sets or even defense based sets.

I was runnign as ganker until final nerfs as for me with morrowind but its offtopic

and as counterable sorc como..this was counterable until those changes to rune cage + with old crystal frags it was really counterable

can you then please tell me cow to counter unmitigable stun with additional damage if it end/break free + before placed on you curse and flying to you crystal frag and just before hit you getting rune cage while dodge?

can you conter this all damage if you instantly will get this unmitigable cc? always we can also add meteor to this to 100% guaranted kill with rune cage

You basically want to cc the sorc as soon as you see the meteor rune at your feet. Hell you don't even need to do that if you chug an immovable pot. Tons of options to you as a nightblade as far as stun goes. If he's got mines up you basically have free cc immunity on demand.

You can't CC someone who's 36m away spamming *** (newsflash: most builds don't have 36m+ undodgeable/blockable CCs), Immovable has 45s cooldown (unlike sorc burst) & mines don't give CC immunity, they give root immunity (and hit really f'in hard if you're not a tank build) as they're not CCs, they're roots.

Oh, and Bone Pirate+Shackle most definitely isn't a "gank build" like you implied earlier lmao


It's getting harder & harder to take this seriously.

I think if you die to the first opening part of the combo at that range, you have a lot more problem than a Sorc atm. Your build runs low health, I mean, what do you expect to happen? And your build in itself capitalizes on the range with your high damage Snipe. So... what's the problem here? Most Snipes are not audible unless you are in a very quiet environment. Cuz thanks ZOS.

I have a lot of other problems if I screw up. I mean, you can see multiple of my usual, common deaths on the build video I posted just a week ago:

https://youtu.be/axkpih8ehw4?t=4m31s
I chase a kill too hard and overstay my welcome, get focused by the entire green team. Also dodge roll in the wrong direction after gap closer leaves me exposed to DBOS. 100% my fault enemy team gets a kill there.

https://youtu.be/axkpih8ehw4?t=6m47s
Stunned by... something mid dodge roll & missing 400 stam from being able to CC break. Better resource management & positioning would've saved me. Mostly my fault again.


I'm fine with dying when I play bad & enemies play better - that's just how games usually work.

What I'm not fine with is dying despite doing everything correctly, which only really happens with Rune Cage at the moment.


There is no other combination that would guaranteed kill me without a way I could've avoided it (yes, that includes snipes).


You asked what the problem is. The problem is Rune Cage guaranteeing huge burst damage with no skill required from user & removing options of counterplay apart from "change your fun, enjoyable build to a boring tank build".

Same logic applies to Sorcs. If they mess up, they die. Simple as that. And every class dies to NBs even if they have 'done everything right'. You should admit that the low health is your problem. Not Rune Cage combo.

No, they don't.

If you keep your shields up, you'll never die to stealth burst, and everything else from NB is dodgeable/blockable (well, even burst from stealth is but let's ignore that for now). That means if you don't make mistakes... you live, even if you had 10k health.

Likewise, on a stamina build low health is a problem only when there's high burst you can't dodge/block/outrange, everything else falls in the "l2p" category. At the moment only one such source of burst exists: Rune Cage.

Think of health as a "difficulty slider".

Yes, the moment they don't do everything correctly, which is them being caught without shield, they die. How is this not the case then? Sorc is not some living gods that walk in Cyrodiil. They can be quite strong but not that much strong when you are spec'd defensively. We can talk about it not being the case if Sorc had autocast shield with 30k strength at 0 costs. And I have never seen a single Sorc that keeps the shield up while traversing or when NB hasn't appeared out of Cloak for a good while. Sorcs do and will die. I also have never seen a single person holding block up while moving in Cyrodiil either. And these people will also die without a chance to react. Stamblade answers to these problems always have been "slot more health" and so why shouldn't you?

I keep buffs up 24/7 whenever I can expect combat, no matter which class I play.

Capping a resource? Yeah, that Vigor is gonna stay up 24/7, same as Shuffle/Acceleration. Or shields if I play any of my magicka builds.

If I'm traveling between keeps and the combat music starts playing I know I'm about to get ganked & a simple dodge roll or block fixes that issue, unless it's an overload ganker that can just Rune Cage me & prevent that.

...and even if you do die to a ganker (entirely your own fault unless Rune Caged to prevent dodge/block) you can run/ride back with the knowledge there is a ganker, keep shields up/dodge roll/sneak, pop a det pot (and/or bait an attack) & get your revenge.

Bottom line is, there's always a chance to react or play proactively to avoid dying, unless we're talking about Rune Cage which removes that chance to react (while also dealing 4-5k damage by itself).


And no, "slot more health" hasn't been the "answer" (or even necessary/optimal) for medium stam builds, that's the answer for tank builds that don't dodge roll much at all. Yeah, the ones running bleeds & sloads and an entirely different (boring af) playstyle.

So does the Sorcs you complain about have to keep up their buffs, which is shields. Slot more health also is an option. I did not know the game greyed out when the user tried to enchant Medium Armor with Prismatic Defense glyphs. Or that the game forbid you from running Triune or even move some attributes to health. You run 18k health, what did you expect to happen? Even a breeze will kill you in that health and yet you keep insisting it is Rune Cage that is the problem, not your builds.

Yeah, because trading 1k burst for 2,2k health sounds like a good idea...

I don't think you understand how burst oriented builds work.

And no, "a breeze" doesn't kill me, only the most overtuned ability in the game aka Rune Cage does.

Happy to demonstrate this at any time vs anyone on PC EU; as long as I don't screw up I can live as long as I have stamina vs anything except Rune Cage.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

If you died to Rune Cage combo at 25k health and up in an instant the Meteor dropped, you might have a case but you flat out don't. You are running a gank build. And gank builds die when they get engaged by people who slot CCs. Sure, you can even giftwrap your build as glass cannon build. Even then, you really shouldn't complain about the Rune Cage because your health is so low.

Well, luckily Meteor is telegraphed because you do instagib even 25k health+ medium armor builds with it if you build at all for damage.
I even had a friend slot 5x Impregnable and he was unable to survive that.

As a stamblade I can atleast cloak+block when I see the Meteor circle (and hope there's no det pot users in range) to prevent Rune Cage, but medium stam sorcs for example are just dead.


And yes, I'm going to complain about Rune Cage because it's the only thing that allows such scenarios to occur without any drawbacks for using it as it has higher dmg than Reach or any other non-ultimate ranged CC.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

You really need to get out of that old NB instagib everyone meta mindset. Good NB players are not having as much problem with Rune Cage as you it seems. I don't know... maybe it has to do with the fact that they run more health? In Cyrodiil, near 25k health was almost always mandatory. And you know what NBs used to tell people? Get more health. Again, better follow your own advises. And here's another good one... "adapt". Just about every NBs say this to whoever mentions that the class is just strong, even without the whining attached to it. Why shouldn't you?

But, I think this will fly over the head like that Rune Cage or deflected by your bubble shield.

Oh, so you mean I should go slot bleeds & sloads and play an incap spamming tank build like all the "good" NBs?

Because that's what you get when you trade your burst for tankiness.


Unless you have some secret op bow burst build with 25k+ health, you should probably keep those ideas to yourself while playing a class that can have 10k health even and still survive any burst while hiding behind 30k shield stacks.

Tell you what, I'll accept "stack health" as an answer when Snipe & Bombard deal Oblivion damage and one shot dmg shield based builds unless they stack 25k+ health.

I.e. when "stacking health" becomes a requirement for everyone and not just victims of Rune Cage.

Lutallo wrote: »

You know you have a massive L2P issue when you're getting GG'd by a Stamplar (probably the worst class this update) while you're on a Magsorc (by for the best class this update).

Daus wrote: »

Lutallo wrote: »

You know you have a massive L2P issue when you're getting GG'd by a Stamplar (probably the worst class this update) while you're on a Magsorc (by for the best class this update).

This isn't a good argument honestly. Every class is capable of stomping another; player skill is a very real variable. The gripe that I and others have with sorcs is the ease that they can defeat another player that's more talented primarily due to how unfair their class abilities are. The problem with magsorcs is that player skill has become less influential in their performance due to their no-counterplay CC Rune Cage in conjunction with their delayed burst and auto-execute. Not to mention their ability to be tankier than heavy armor with the ability to stack harness magicka and hardened ward.

And for those that want to argue that damage shields don't make you tankier than heavy, do me a favor and wear all heavy and do not slot a damage shield. Let me know how you survive. You can't use defensive sets btw so you'll have to craft Shackle or Julianos in heavy.

A lot of my magicka friends have tried heavy because they can't stand shield stacking, and they switch back because they die too quickly.

Honestly what kind of game makes it so you're tankier while wearing all cloth than wearing all platmail? Shield stacking needs to go or be reworked.

Daus wrote: »

And for those that want to argue that damage shields don't make you tankier than heavy, do me a favor and wear all heavy and do not slot a damage shield. Let me know how you survive. You can't use defensive sets btw so you'll have to craft Shackle or Julianos in heavy.

A lot of my magicka friends have tried heavy because they can't stand shield stacking, and they switch back because they die too quickly.

Honestly what kind of game makes it so you're tankier while wearing all cloth than wearing all platmail? Shield stacking needs to go or be reworked.

CyrusArya wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

And for those that want to argue that damage shields don't make you tankier than heavy, do me a favor and wear all heavy and do not slot a damage shield. Let me know how you survive. You can't use defensive sets btw so you'll have to craft Shackle or Julianos in heavy.

A lot of my magicka friends have tried heavy because they can't stand shield stacking, and they switch back because they die too quickly.

Honestly what kind of game makes it so you're tankier while wearing all cloth than wearing all platmail? Shield stacking needs to go or be reworked.

What an asinine argument. Sorc doesn’t have the passive or active healing capacity that other classes do, so obviously heavy armor is not gonna work well for it. But are you implying that heavy builds on other classes can’t be tankier than a sorc? Sorc is definitely not tankier than a proper heavy armor spec. My stamden will survive under fire leagues better than my sorc. But that doesn’t mean my sorc is unable to extend fights through a combination of shields and kiting.

You seem to be under the impression that just cus a sorc is in light armor, they should just keel over and drop dead when under any pressure. It already is the worst class when being focused. I don’t know any good players that struggle vs shields. Not one. If you are having such a hard time, it’s honestly a personal l2p issue. Don’t ask the game to be catered around your deficiencies as a player. Your utter bias and obsession with one class is really just a meme at this point.

bardx86 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Here’s some insight for you sorc fanboys who don’t know PvP outside your endless shield spam.

QQ rants don't equate to insight.

Templars have bad dps compared to other classes, their jabs don’t even land most of the time and literally any player with any form of skill is easily able to dodge and evade the jab spam. All templars are essentially good for is turtling up and block castin BoL which basically makes them into a tank and does no damage. They can hardly kill any good class because they’re so vulnerable on offense you can literally smack a Templar in the face with a burst combo if they’re trying to go in the offensive. Their only form of dps is jabs and PoTL or purifying light combo which is the easiest burst to avoid. If you still cry about magplars being OP you’ve never played a Templar nor do you realize how difficult it is to actually do damage and have decent survivability on one.

Templar is a class that totally shines in a group setting but is very lacking when you run solo. A well played Templar makes a huge difference in a group. A Sorc not so much. You just can't compare the two classes as they function completely different. I'm all for giving Templar their soul back, but that has nothing to do with the OPness of Sorcs.

Magsorcs have the easiest burst in the entire game. I don’t want to hear a stupid argument of “hrrr durrr stam haz their combo ez just Dawnbreaker spin 2 win” first off. You can block and dodge a dawnbreaker. You can block spin to win. Crying about DB spin to win combo is a l2p issue same with dying to a perma jab spammer. You just suck.

The only things that are unblockable in a Sorc burst combo is Rune Cage and Curse. You can block or dodge Frags. You can block or Dodge Wrath/Fury. You can block and dodge Overload. And you can block Meteor (which isn't even a Sorc ultimate).

Now back on the topic of sorcs. Rune cage is an uunblockable, undodgeable cc which has a massive range, relatively cheap cost, does a significant amount of damage, and has the longest stun duration. This has no counter play.

3k+ magicka (depending on LA passives) isn't "relatively cheap". Granted, the skill shouldn't have burst damage, but the rest of its functionality is exactly the same as before Summerset (hint: no one complained about it then).

Don’t try and say “get more health” not all builds revolve around having a bunch of health.

I agree on that, but running a low health build is a build decision, and nothing you can complain about. At least that's what Sorcs get told all the time on the topic of Oblivion damage.

Don’t try and say “get more stam, cc break”
In cyrodiil with lag already crazy enough as it is. Most of the time it’s not going to register you spamming your trigger buttons to cc break in time before the trash no skill sorc gives you the ez wombo combo burst.

I believe that's the main issue, and it isn't a Sorc specific one. CC is broken fundamentally in the game, and has been with specific CC skills for years (see Mass Hysteria for that). Fixing CC is the solution then.

In non CP if you’re on a mag. Chances are you’re going to die pretty easily due to the fact that you have almost no stam, cc breaking takes half of it away, that’s not including having to use stam for blocking roll dodging or sprinting on a mag in non cp. so essentially you’re going to be hit with a full sorc burst and you cannot do a single thing about it.

I'm running with 16k stam on my noCP mSorc. Again, it's a conscious build decision if you run with less in favor of having a larger health and mag pool. If you want to know, a Sorc doesn't survive with 10k stam in noCP either.

There’s is no counter play to an undodgeable unblockable cc with huge range. It’s an absolute joke for sorcs. Curse, meteor, rune cage, frags, excecute. Takes no skill and has no counter play. This is isn’t an “l2p” issue. It’s a “sorcs are ignorant af and don’t want their trash no skill builds nerfed or else they’ll cry like the babies they are” issue

Break free and roll dodge. If the 2k to 4k damage Rune Cage does now really kills you, you wouldn't have survived the follow up anyway. The exact same combination was possible before Summerset - without the Rune Cage damage.

Please tell me how endless shield stacking and unblockable Undodgeable cc’s are balanced.

A typical Sorc build without pets or Necro/Shadowrend will be around 40k mag in noCP. Sgield stacking isn't endless if you want to go on the offensive too. And again, Sorcs had undodgeable and unblockable CC before Summerset.

For those who try and argue saying fear and fossilize is Also unblockable and undodgable. First off. They require you to be in MELEE RANGE. Not to mention DK’s don’t have the damage output a sorc does so they can’t burst you down as fast as a sorc can when you’re fossilized. They also both have shorter stun duration and don’t do stupid amounts of damage. Not to mention you can’t just kill them from 41 meters away like you can on a trash sorc.

Melee range isn't a disadvantage if your class kit is built for melee (DK, stamNB). Only ranged magBlade is somewhat disadvantaged with Mass Hysteria, but they run Reach and/or Cripple anyway. As for magDKs damage output I'm not experienced enough to judge it, but the consensus from class mains seems to be that damage isn't the issue magDK has (although whip being dodgeable hurt them a bit).

You leave out the fact that sorc damage was buffed three fold with destro staff counting as 2 set pieces, light attack damage being buffed and Rune doing its damage up front. Arguments like “if the 2-4K damage from Rune killed you, you were going to die anyway” are complete and utter BS. That 2-4K hitting in the same GCD is now more than enough to put you in execute which should already be sitting on you like a ticking time bomb.

40k magic in no cp! How do you endure. I can barely get 30k stamina while still building for all the other things I need to survive the Sorc fest BG’s have become.

Melee isn’t a disadvantage for melee characters If everyone I fought couldn’t damage me until I got within 5 meters of them. Sadly that isn’t the reality of things. The reality of PvP is far different then Sorcs defending their class would have you believe. Arguments like this are comical and anyone who has spent longer than 10 minutes in PvP can see right through it.

The fact that any person can legitimately argue that Sorc is balanced right now boggles my mind. This game needs a lot of changes. They could start with balancing Sorc, nerfing Sloads, nerfing Masters dual wield, nerfing Zaans, nerfing Caluurions, and nerfing the defile CP passive. It would be a good start.

And of course, NB remains untouched. Because NB, which is currently far above DK, Warden and Temp, will regain solo top position once that pesky sorc competitor has been OHKO'd by the nerf hammer.
Right.

Nightblade has been nerfed as much or more than every class you just mentioned. Sorc has escaped nerfs that other classes have been decimated with. A good example is Dark Deal remaining in the game when every other class had its sustain mechanics trashed. NB is good 1v1. At best. Sorc on the other hand is on a whole new level. But you know that.

Every single Person I play with unanimously agrees the class is brokenly overpowered right now, and this includes Sorc Mains. Every one. This isn’t even a debate anymore amongst people who aren’t grossly biased towards the class. And IF you are a Sorc main and aren’t feeling this, I suggest you YouTube a good Sorc build while the good times last.

Yeah, sorc has never been nerfed. Never.
Do you even know what a DW magsorc is? Seen one recently?
And if we take sorc out of the picture... are you REALLY claiming Warden, Temp and DK are on par with NB?
SERIOUSLY???

What are you even rambling on about?. You don’t see Dual Wield Sorcs because you would be an idiot to run one with the direct and indirect buffs Sorcs received from Destro staff counting as a two item set piece, Rune buff, and light/heavy attack damage buff. Are you actually crying because destro/resto sorc got so buffed as to make Dual Wield obsolete? The Sorc struggle is real lol.

And to answer your second question. In any other context aside from solo, open world PvP. Yes. They are better.

DW sorcs have quit way, way before Summerset.
And you're just completely in denial if you think NB is weaker than those other classes.

LOL they didn’t quit. They just switched to better builds. Especially when the Asylum Destro was first introduced. Just stop. Let me ask you this? Do you think Sorc is fine as is?

Shows how little you know.
DW sorcs resignated way before CwC. I'd say the changes to Trapping Webs began the mass exodus. And no one used an Asylum Destro in Cyro. Everyone went with Master's for well-known reasons.

I was for either damage buff to Frags or stun re-integration, not Cage damage. But what you see now is a functioning sorc burst, as it should be. It is just a little overtuned with too much damage. But still, this is how sorcs work by concept. I heard Cloak was made whole and OP, so sorcs shouldn't?

So, let me throw the questipn back:
Do yoi think sorc was fine before Summerset?

I agree Sorcs were not fine per-summerset. If they were to change Frags back to have a stun then other things need to be addressed. All passive dodge abilities would have to be removed. It's beyond frustrating to have some one running away in a strait line and dodge every skill except curse. How is that skill? Roll dodge may need to be looked as well. Cloak would also have to be reworked having a NB cloak right next to you or a group of folks is stupid. Sorcs would also need something to fight against perm-blockers.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Here’s some insight for you sorc fanboys who don’t know PvP outside your endless shield spam.

QQ rants don't equate to insight.

Templars have bad dps compared to other classes, their jabs don’t even land most of the time and literally any player with any form of skill is easily able to dodge and evade the jab spam. All templars are essentially good for is turtling up and block castin BoL which basically makes them into a tank and does no damage. They can hardly kill any good class because they’re so vulnerable on offense you can literally smack a Templar in the face with a burst combo if they’re trying to go in the offensive. Their only form of dps is jabs and PoTL or purifying light combo which is the easiest burst to avoid. If you still cry about magplars being OP you’ve never played a Templar nor do you realize how difficult it is to actually do damage and have decent survivability on one.

Templar is a class that totally shines in a group setting but is very lacking when you run solo. A well played Templar makes a huge difference in a group. A Sorc not so much. You just can't compare the two classes as they function completely different. I'm all for giving Templar their soul back, but that has nothing to do with the OPness of Sorcs.

Magsorcs have the easiest burst in the entire game. I don’t want to hear a stupid argument of “hrrr durrr stam haz their combo ez just Dawnbreaker spin 2 win” first off. You can block and dodge a dawnbreaker. You can block spin to win. Crying about DB spin to win combo is a l2p issue same with dying to a perma jab spammer. You just suck.

The only things that are unblockable in a Sorc burst combo is Rune Cage and Curse. You can block or dodge Frags. You can block or Dodge Wrath/Fury. You can block and dodge Overload. And you can block Meteor (which isn't even a Sorc ultimate).

Now back on the topic of sorcs. Rune cage is an uunblockable, undodgeable cc which has a massive range, relatively cheap cost, does a significant amount of damage, and has the longest stun duration. This has no counter play.

3k+ magicka (depending on LA passives) isn't "relatively cheap". Granted, the skill shouldn't have burst damage, but the rest of its functionality is exactly the same as before Summerset (hint: no one complained about it then).

Don’t try and say “get more health” not all builds revolve around having a bunch of health.

I agree on that, but running a low health build is a build decision, and nothing you can complain about. At least that's what Sorcs get told all the time on the topic of Oblivion damage.

Don’t try and say “get more stam, cc break”
In cyrodiil with lag already crazy enough as it is. Most of the time it’s not going to register you spamming your trigger buttons to cc break in time before the trash no skill sorc gives you the ez wombo combo burst.

I believe that's the main issue, and it isn't a Sorc specific one. CC is broken fundamentally in the game, and has been with specific CC skills for years (see Mass Hysteria for that). Fixing CC is the solution then.

In non CP if you’re on a mag. Chances are you’re going to die pretty easily due to the fact that you have almost no stam, cc breaking takes half of it away, that’s not including having to use stam for blocking roll dodging or sprinting on a mag in non cp. so essentially you’re going to be hit with a full sorc burst and you cannot do a single thing about it.

I'm running with 16k stam on my noCP mSorc. Again, it's a conscious build decision if you run with less in favor of having a larger health and mag pool. If you want to know, a Sorc doesn't survive with 10k stam in noCP either.

There’s is no counter play to an undodgeable unblockable cc with huge range. It’s an absolute joke for sorcs. Curse, meteor, rune cage, frags, excecute. Takes no skill and has no counter play. This is isn’t an “l2p” issue. It’s a “sorcs are ignorant af and don’t want their trash no skill builds nerfed or else they’ll cry like the babies they are” issue

Break free and roll dodge. If the 2k to 4k damage Rune Cage does now really kills you, you wouldn't have survived the follow up anyway. The exact same combination was possible before Summerset - without the Rune Cage damage.

Please tell me how endless shield stacking and unblockable Undodgeable cc’s are balanced.

A typical Sorc build without pets or Necro/Shadowrend will be around 40k mag in noCP. Sgield stacking isn't endless if you want to go on the offensive too. And again, Sorcs had undodgeable and unblockable CC before Summerset.

For those who try and argue saying fear and fossilize is Also unblockable and undodgable. First off. They require you to be in MELEE RANGE. Not to mention DK’s don’t have the damage output a sorc does so they can’t burst you down as fast as a sorc can when you’re fossilized. They also both have shorter stun duration and don’t do stupid amounts of damage. Not to mention you can’t just kill them from 41 meters away like you can on a trash sorc.

Melee range isn't a disadvantage if your class kit is built for melee (DK, stamNB). Only ranged magBlade is somewhat disadvantaged with Mass Hysteria, but they run Reach and/or Cripple anyway. As for magDKs damage output I'm not experienced enough to judge it, but the consensus from class mains seems to be that damage isn't the issue magDK has (although whip being dodgeable hurt them a bit).

You leave out the fact that sorc damage was buffed three fold with destro staff counting as 2 set pieces, light attack damage being buffed and Rune doing its damage up front. Arguments like “if the 2-4K damage from Rune killed you, you were going to die anyway” are complete and utter BS. That 2-4K hitting in the same GCD is now more than enough to put you in execute which should already be sitting on you like a ticking time bomb.

40k magic in no cp! How do you endure. I can barely get 30k stamina while still building for all the other things I need to survive the Sorc fest BG’s have become.

Melee isn’t a disadvantage for melee characters If everyone I fought couldn’t damage me until I got within 5 meters of them. Sadly that isn’t the reality of things. The reality of PvP is far different then Sorcs defending their class would have you believe. Arguments like this are comical and anyone who has spent longer than 10 minutes in PvP can see right through it.

The fact that any person can legitimately argue that Sorc is balanced right now boggles my mind. This game needs a lot of changes. They could start with balancing Sorc, nerfing Sloads, nerfing Masters dual wield, nerfing Zaans, nerfing Caluurions, and nerfing the defile CP passive. It would be a good start.

And of course, NB remains untouched. Because NB, which is currently far above DK, Warden and Temp, will regain solo top position once that pesky sorc competitor has been OHKO'd by the nerf hammer.
Right.

Nightblade has been nerfed as much or more than every class you just mentioned. Sorc has escaped nerfs that other classes have been decimated with. A good example is Dark Deal remaining in the game when every other class had its sustain mechanics trashed. NB is good 1v1. At best. Sorc on the other hand is on a whole new level. But you know that.

Every single Person I play with unanimously agrees the class is brokenly overpowered right now, and this includes Sorc Mains. Every one. This isn’t even a debate anymore amongst people who aren’t grossly biased towards the class. And IF you are a Sorc main and aren’t feeling this, I suggest you YouTube a good Sorc build while the good times last.

Yeah, sorc has never been nerfed. Never.
Do you even know what a DW magsorc is? Seen one recently?
And if we take sorc out of the picture... are you REALLY claiming Warden, Temp and DK are on par with NB?
SERIOUSLY???

What are you even rambling on about?. You don’t see Dual Wield Sorcs because you would be an idiot to run one with the direct and indirect buffs Sorcs received from Destro staff counting as a two item set piece, Rune buff, and light/heavy attack damage buff. Are you actually crying because destro/resto sorc got so buffed as to make Dual Wield obsolete? The Sorc struggle is real lol.

And to answer your second question. In any other context aside from solo, open world PvP. Yes. They are better.

DW sorcs have quit way, way before Summerset.
And you're just completely in denial if you think NB is weaker than those other classes.

LOL they didn’t quit. They just switched to better builds. Especially when the Asylum Destro was first introduced. Just stop. Let me ask you this? Do you think Sorc is fine as is?

Shows how little you know.
DW sorcs resignated way before CwC. I'd say the changes to Trapping Webs began the mass exodus. And no one used an Asylum Destro in Cyro. Everyone went with Master's for well-known reasons.

I was for either damage buff to Frags or stun re-integration, not Cage damage. But what you see now is a functioning sorc burst, as it should be. It is just a little overtuned with too much damage. But still, this is how sorcs work by concept. I heard Cloak was made whole and OP, so sorcs shouldn't?

So, let me throw the questipn back:
Do yoi think sorc was fine before Summerset?

I agree Sorcs were not fine per-summerset. If they were to change Frags back to have a stun then other things need to be addressed. All passive dodge abilities would have to be removed. It's beyond frustrating to have some one running away in a strait line and dodge every skill except curse. How is that skill? Roll dodge may need to be looked as well. Cloak would also have to be reworked having a NB cloak right next to you or a group of folks is stupid. Sorcs would also need something to fight against perm-blockers.

And that's where no-damage Rune Cage comes in. Dodge/block counter at the cost of burst damage, but Frags being strong enough to kill, if pressured beforehand.

Tonturri wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

And for those that want to argue that damage shields don't make you tankier than heavy, do me a favor and wear all heavy and do not slot a damage shield. Let me know how you survive. You can't use defensive sets btw so you'll have to craft Shackle or Julianos in heavy.

A lot of my magicka friends have tried heavy because they can't stand shield stacking, and they switch back because they die too quickly.

Honestly what kind of game makes it so you're tankier while wearing all cloth than wearing all platmail? Shield stacking needs to go or be reworked.

What an asinine argument. Sorc doesn’t have the passive or active healing capacity that other classes do, so obviously heavy armor is not gonna work well for it. But are you implying that heavy builds on other classes can’t be tankier than a sorc? Sorc is definitely not tankier than a proper heavy armor spec. My stamden will survive under fire leagues better than my sorc. But that doesn’t mean my sorc is unable to extend fights through a combination of shields and kiting.

You seem to be under the impression that just cus a sorc is in light armor, they should just keel over and drop dead when under any pressure. It already is the worst class when being focused. I don’t know any good players that struggle vs shields. Not one. If you are having such a hard time, it’s honestly a personal l2p issue. Don’t ask the game to be catered around your deficiencies as a player. Your utter bias and obsession with one class is really just a meme at this point.

Class specific heals:

Twilight Matriarch - Active
Dark Exchange - Active
Absorption Field - ult - Active
Blood Magic (class passive) - Passive
Critical Surge - Passive

Non-Class Heals

Regeneration - Passive
Blessings of Protection - Active
Healing Ward - Active
Lights Champion - ult - Active
Degeneration - Passive

Plenty of passive and active healing is available to magsorcs.

Also shield stacking is as OP as cloaking. The only difference is that I can't completely disable damage shields with a simple potion or ability.

And we're going to slot any of these skills...where, exactly?

Twilight requires double bar and is not only killable, but extremely clunky. Do note the double bar requirement. Really, that's huge. Our bars are already pretty packed far more than other classes with less variance in what we can slot without gimping ourselves.

Absorb field is an ult. Seriously. You can't just list everything in the game a sorc could possibly use for healing and list that as if it's actually a viable choice. Absorb field healing - which also requires you to stay pretty immobile - is utter trash if you're just using that as a heal.

Blood magic is just LOL. I don't often go this route but..really? Anyone who has played sorc knows - or should know - that blood magic is as far from a useful source of healing as it can get. It might as well not even exist and you'd see no change. It's also health based, so...sorcs who can kill you gain nothing out of it. If you stack enough health to find it useful you're no threat to anyone

Surge - mag sorcs are extremely lacking in the dot department. Yes, you can get this to proc with SOME level of regularity, but it doesn't help at all when on the defensive and you're shielding up- unless you've slotted lightning form and your opponent is in melee range I guess, but eh..pretty difficult to use. Okay yes, we have one okay over time heal that's difficult to use.

Muta/rapid is actually pretty good. If you'll see anything you'll see this. But, really, it's nowhere near the amount of healing you'll see on many other builds.

Blessing of prot: please. Please stop. Oh gosh. I cannot even. Why don't you just list the minor lifesteal from the resto staff skill too?

Lights champion- again with the ult stuff. Yeah you can use it, but you're likely giving up a third bar (clunky as it is), and...an ult is very far from healing that justifies heavy armor. This ult is mostly used for the major prot, because at least that still works with shields (And the crit dmg buff).

Degen- yeah two extremely weak heals. It's like, several times weaker than mutagen, unless I suppose if you spam it? Yeah that's totally gonna be worth it.

So...why didn't your friends use all these skills to survive while using heavy? Perhaps it might just be that, while these skills are available, they either suck or using them is more trouble than it's worth.

Also, why is healing ward in there? That's a shield that only goes off if your opponent is unable to pressure you in the slightest (which, yknow...says something about them). I suppose it gives an initial heal, but that's like...what, 2k?

Please, post a vid of yourself using these skills to survive on a sorc against a decent opponent. I guarantee you'll feel pain unending. Try to actually USE anything on this list.

Why not vigor? Vigor is super strong, I see stamina builds using it all the time! You could make a mag sorc and use vigor + muta + crit surge in heavy, and maybe healing ward too as your only healing skills.

Daus wrote: »

Lutallo wrote: »

You know you have a massive L2P issue when you're getting GG'd by a Stamplar (probably the worst class this update) while you're on a Magsorc (by for the best class this update).

Honestly what kind of game makes it so you're tankier while wearing all cloth than wearing all platmail? Shield stacking needs to go or be reworked.

Minalan wrote: »

M

Jurand80 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Lutallo wrote: »

You know you have a massive L2P issue when you're getting GG'd by a Stamplar (probably the worst class this update) while you're on a Magsorc (by for the best class this update).

Honestly what kind of game makes it so you're tankier while wearing all cloth than wearing all platmail? Shield stacking needs to go or be reworked.

a game with elves and faries

The same game that lets someone in hundreds of pounds of metal plate armor run at the speed of light or fly through the air and gap close?

Alfie2072 wrote: »

come on guys give up with the "nerf sorc" ***
sorcs arent overpowered, everyone who plays sorc is just really skilled and you need to get better and l2p
on a serious note i think its funny, everyone complains about sorcs being OP (myself included, they are op)
and sorcs always come out saying "oh nuu nuu they arent overpowered they take alot of skill to actually play, if you die to sorcs its because they are better players than you blah blah blah"
so pretty much all sorc players are skilled gamers amirite?