Are 'Ball-Groups' even logical ?

Etaniel · June 2018

FakeZavos wrote: »

raviour wrote: »

This needs putting out there. I don't ever see them doing anything productive or fun and a solo gets better AP gain. I think they just do it for attention...

Proper ball groups making 80-200k AP/H. Goodluck doing that with bigboss chasing that 1 guy over 1/4 of the map

You'd be amazed how much ap you can make by pvdooring in one hour. There's a reason why all those light attacking pugs have reached 40+ ranks while still being total trash at the game

AyelineESO · June 2018

dtsharples wrote: »

Time Stop + Negate + several Inevitable Detonations.

But that would take co-ordination. And these ball groups only fight unorganised Soloers for the majority of the time, so its a moot point really.

You know you arent considered a "Soloer" when you run close to or inside your faction zerg even If you dont have a group, do you?

Anrose · June 2018

Yuke wrote: »

Then you US guys are lucky. On EU they try their best not to meet eachother until its absolutely inevitable.

That’s kind of shame, really. I play in one such guild, and the fights we always reflect on as the most fun are the ones where we find a rival guild. Or when a guild we underestimate puts up a fight we weren’t expecting. Farming pugs is really kind of boring.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos · June 2018

@raviour you should try to understand the concept of logic and reasoning in general instead of "feeling sorry" for ball groups...

AhPook_Is_Here · June 2018

What could be more logical than a Venn diagram?

MLRPZ · June 2018

Yuke wrote: »

Then you US guys are lucky. On EU they try their best not to meet eachother until its absolutely inevitable.

That's only because we take no pride in zerging down enemy raid so if they go to our home keep we just don't go there. But there's also a rule in zerg Squad that says "uf or ***"

usmcjdking · June 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Logical? Of course grouping is logical. More people + communication + coordination = better results in just about any arena imaginable.

The only thing illogical about ball groups is that there is no real counter. IRL clumping up as such in open combat just screams indirect fire and suppression. ESO does not really have that available nor is it practical to implement tactical nukes in ESO.

There's a counter. Either overwhelming numbers of disorganized players or another organized raid that outplays them. Depending on how,good both sides are, an organized small group might have some luck.

Guild v Guild fights can be pretty incredible, open field or at an objective.

Its just that an organized raid is incredibly powerful because of their organization, so to counter likewise requires equal or better organization. Or simply overwhelming numbers. I've seen both methods work, and while overwhelming numbers of disorganized players often has the harder time of it, it does work.

I didn't say there wasn't a counter.

I said that the typical logical response for a clumped enemy unit isn't available in the game.

Ender1310 · June 2018

New meta sucks so much damage going out. Ball groups are effective. They just look stupid. They make a game that has otherwise asthetically pleasing combat look dumb.

VaranisArano · June 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Logical? Of course grouping is logical. More people + communication + coordination = better results in just about any arena imaginable.

The only thing illogical about ball groups is that there is no real counter. IRL clumping up as such in open combat just screams indirect fire and suppression. ESO does not really have that available nor is it practical to implement tactical nukes in ESO.

There's a counter. Either overwhelming numbers of disorganized players or another organized raid that outplays them. Depending on how,good both sides are, an organized small group might have some luck.

Guild v Guild fights can be pretty incredible, open field or at an objective.

Its just that an organized raid is incredibly powerful because of their organization, so to counter likewise requires equal or better organization. Or simply overwhelming numbers. I've seen both methods work, and while overwhelming numbers of disorganized players often has the harder time of it, it does work.

I didn't say there wasn't a counter.

I said that the typical logical response for a clumped enemy unit isn't available in the game.

Sorry, when you say the bolded part,
I felt that some clarification of the actual in game counters was needed. You are correct that IRL methods don't work terribly well, though I have seen siege support used semi-effectively when coordinated with an organized group or overwhelming numbers.

usmcjdking wrote: »

The only thing illogical about ball groups is that there is no real counter. IRL clumping up as such in open combat just screams indirect fire and suppression. ESO does not really have that available nor is it practical to implement tactical nukes in ESO.

raviour · June 2018

DC strongest alliance Vivec. We rule everything at prime. Guess what ? We have no ball groups.

raviour · June 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

By a "ball-group", do you mean an organized raid following the calls of a leader in voice comms, often with a battle plan or an objective in mind and able to respond, move, heal, and attack in an organized fashion?

Because the logic of those types of groups is pretty obvious. As is their success at objective play and on the battlefield.

The alternative to balling up is to have that large number of players scattered, unable to follow calls, unable to be easily healed and unable to concentrate damage on enemies...basically a disorganized zerg of players. Disorganized players can overwhelm through sheer numbers but otherwise have a much harder time taking objectives or winning battles than an organized group.

Organized raids ball up because its the most effective way to capitalize on their organization and that organization is what makes them dangerous.

Disorganized players that ball up are just a mass of players serving with none of the benefits of actual organization.

No.
There are plenty of other ways to run an organized group that is more fun than heal,aoe, rez. Ball groups look like small children playing football. They r fkn useless vs a real organized 12 man group with an inventive leader.

zyk · June 2018

I have hated the balance between ball groups and everyone else since Earthgore. Before it, I thought it was okay and some solid randoms could disrupt or wipe decent ball groups. But since Earthgore, it's just stupid. It's back to where it was in 1.6-2.2 when ball groups were OP because of barrier rotations, cleanse and easy perma-rapids.

However, I don't blame the players who enjoy medium and large groups. They're going to use the best tools available to them if for no other reason than their opponents will be. The party to blame is ZOS.

MLRPZ · June 2018

raviour wrote: »

They r fkn useless vs a real organized 12 man group with an inventive leader.

wait, so a 12 man group with an inventive leader is not a ball group ? I don't get what you're trying to say

Lucky28 · June 2018

rivenjr wrote: »

idk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

By a "ball-group", do you mean an organized raid following the calls of a leader in voice comms, often with a battle plan or an objective in mind and able to respond, move, heal, and attack in an organized fashion?

Because the logic of those types of groups is pretty obvious. As is their success at objective play and on the battlefiel

OMG, with all the banter before OP seemed to be getting to the point I may have missed the obvious that he may be calling out organized groups vs the standard Zerg.

Not a whole lot of organization with “stand inside crown”. Especially when you hit them with seige. I’ve always been a huge fan of Collision for PvP. Just slow people a bit when they touch each other. That would make for some true organization and battle formations would be necessary in open field combat.

bad idea. would cause more lag and the trolling would be real.

Sanct16 · June 2018

MLRPZ wrote: »

raviour wrote: »

They r fkn useless vs a real organized 12 man group with an inventive leader.

wait, so a 12 man group with an inventive leader is not a ball group ? I don't get what you're trying to say

Maybe they are a monotarget warband instead.

AyelineESO · June 2018

dtsharples wrote: »

AyelineESO wrote: »

You know you arent considered a "Soloer" when you run close to or inside your faction zerg even If you dont have a group, do you?

And I'm guessing that you know that most buffs + debuffs work only within a group?
Because I'm assuming that your'e part of a group with 5 pocket healers so you must have at least some clue on the rules of grouping? Or maybe your'e just the Rapids Pig XD Then I presume you know *** all about anything.

I do and my point still stands: You arent automatically a Soloer just because you have no group and If you think you are you should most likely look up the meaning of "solo"

Actually, I got you:

"without anybody else or anything else

Synonyms:
alone, unaccompanied"

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/solo

Etaniel · June 2018

MLRPZ wrote: »

raviour wrote: »

They r fkn useless vs a real organized 12 man group with an inventive leader.

wait, so a 12 man group with an inventive leader is not a ball group ? I don't get what you're trying to say

There's plenty other ways to play than to stack the 12 people together. Ball group = stacking, hence the ball. Are these other play styles more efficient? probably not

raviour · June 2018

MLRPZ wrote: »

raviour wrote: »

They r fkn useless vs a real organized 12 man group with an inventive leader.

wait, so a 12 man group with an inventive leader is not a ball group ? I don't get what you're trying to say

lol ask Cortex. You never tried real PvP?

raviour · June 2018

ErMurazor wrote: »

raviour wrote: »

DC strongest alliance Vivec. We rule everything at prime. Guess what ? We have no ball groups.

raviour wrote: »

No.
There are plenty of other ways to run an organized group that is more fun than heal,aoe, rez. Ball groups look like small children playing football. They r fkn useless vs a real organized 12 man group with an inventive leader.

Ayeline already gave you an explanation what solo truly means.

Here comes another explanation.

Schizophrenia is characterized by failure to understand reality. Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking.

I played PvP in EU Vivec on the AD side for over 3 years daily both solo, smallscale and bigscale groups. I played everywhere on the map, deep into nmy land, at the battlefront and defending gatekeeps from ninja attacks. Everything you say is complete BS about bigger groups and soloplay and that DC has no ballgroups.

I looked through your charnames and cant recall i ever seen you in vivec. and that might explain why u think DC has no ballgroups. they surely do but the difference is that DC organised groups play the Campaign when AD and EP groups play for fun, rewarding and good fights. If EP and AD Guilds decided to play the Campaign, DC would be stomped everyt evening in primetime. Unfortunately DC ballgroups except Shadows League are just too bad to stand a chance without the random pugzerg around em.

Hmm name a DC ball group (please don't say TDA). And hmm who are you and why you diss me hard, are you in The Black or DO or something?

raviour · June 2018

Maybe today i do my compilation of 1vBall. I don't wanna let my secrets out though. Ball groups are for lazy tired people that cba to play properly. End. Of.

BohnT · June 2018

raviour wrote: »

Maybe today i do my compilation of 1vBall. I don't wanna let my secrets out though. Ball groups are for lazy tired people that cba to play properly. End. Of.

What are those hidden tactics?
Looking angrily at the screen after dying the 15th time because you tried to stop ZS alone?
Writing a post on the forums telling them you feel sorry for them because they get so many easy kills from guys like you?
Never showing up in Vivec again to reach them a less on that they never get any AP from you again?

Also i think you don't understand the difference of an organized group and the faction blob trying to Xv1 and PvD as much as possible.

raviour · June 2018

As DCs biggest PuG lead (EU), with a 24 man group you get options to split group and work with the map . A PuG-Ball is out of the question ofc but its not fun anyway. Being inventive with a PuG is a lot of fun and its often the others input on where to go next that brings success. In Vivec I generally just disband after an hour or two because ppl do their own thing and never follow crown unlike the other campaigns.

As a lead of a 12 man raid in voice comms you can get stuff done more effectively. 6 proxy, 3 heal, 3 stam. If stationary stam on siege with maybe 1 heal. 6 proxy flanking with 2 heal (For initial outer defence). Attack, just ram. Fight in fields, No.

Ball groups get ignored, they r just 20 ppl trolling.

raviour · June 2018

Trust me 'The Royal Court of Lions' wiped ZS more than they wiped us and we had less numbers. We just had a chilled group of DC's most relaxed but experienced players and we were not a ball.

Ball groups only win by the naive hype of scrubs being scared of them and not knowing how to counter.

Biro123 · June 2018

AyelineESO wrote: »

dtsharples wrote: »

AyelineESO wrote: »

You know you arent considered a "Soloer" when you run close to or inside your faction zerg even If you dont have a group, do you?

And I'm guessing that you know that most buffs + debuffs work only within a group?
Because I'm assuming that your'e part of a group with 5 pocket healers so you must have at least some clue on the rules of grouping? Or maybe your'e just the Rapids Pig XD Then I presume you know *** all about anything.

I do and my point still stands: You arent automatically a Soloer just because you have no group and If you think you are you should most likely look up the meaning of "solo"

Actually, I got you:

"without anybody else or anything else

Synonyms:
alone, unaccompanied"

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/solo

Soo, just to get a clear definition... If somebody plays for a few hours completely ungrouped and spends say a third of their time zerg-surfing, a third at resources where a handful of others have also showed up, and a third of their time alone at resources. Are they a soloer or not? #confused..

I mean, playing completely alone in a game where it's very rare to get a 1v1 really makes you a 1vXer, doesn't it? So.. are you saying that soloer and 1vXer are exactly the same? In that case why have 2 words for it but none for the great ungrouped?
#stillconfused.

MLRPZ · June 2018

raviour wrote: »

Trust me 'The Royal Court of Lions' wiped ZS more than they wiped us and we had less numbers. We just had a chilled group of DC's most relaxed but experienced players and we were not a ball.

Ball groups only win by the naive hype of scrubs being scared of them and not knowing how to counter.

I don't even recall seing that group's tabard.
show clips, Need a good laugh

Sanct16 · June 2018

raviour wrote: »

Trust me 'The Royal Court of Lions' wiped ZS more than they wiped us and we had less numbers. We just had a chilled group of DC's most relaxed but experienced players and we were not a ball.

Ball groups only win by the naive hype of scrubs being scared of them and not knowing how to counter.

Teach me please, senpai.

AyelineESO · June 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

AyelineESO wrote: »

dtsharples wrote: »

AyelineESO wrote: »

You know you arent considered a "Soloer" when you run close to or inside your faction zerg even If you dont have a group, do you?

And I'm guessing that you know that most buffs + debuffs work only within a group?
Because I'm assuming that your'e part of a group with 5 pocket healers so you must have at least some clue on the rules of grouping? Or maybe your'e just the Rapids Pig XD Then I presume you know *** all about anything.

I do and my point still stands: You arent automatically a Soloer just because you have no group and If you think you are you should most likely look up the meaning of "solo"

Actually, I got you:

"without anybody else or anything else

Synonyms:
alone, unaccompanied"

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/solo

Soo, just to get a clear definition... If somebody plays for a few hours completely ungrouped and spends say a third of their time zerg-surfing, a third at resources where a handful of others have also showed up, and a third of their time alone at resources. Are they a soloer or not? #confused..

I mean, playing completely alone in a game where it's very rare to get a 1v1 really makes you a 1vXer, doesn't it? So.. are you saying that soloer and 1vXer are exactly the same? In that case why have 2 words for it but none for the great ungrouped?
#stillconfused.

Wouldnt really call that player a soloer, no. He's playing solo from time to time (1/3 of his playing time in your example) but you'd have to spent the majority of time playing solo to be considered a soloer. Thats only my opinion of course so feel free to tell me about your definition of a soloer.

I wouldnt say a soloer is neccesarily a 1vsXer tbh cause to be considered a 1vsXer you'd have to be successful at it which just isnt the case for most people that could be considered a soloer (there's not that many ppl left that could even be considered a soloer). Ofc they are fighting outnumbered which could make you think "oh this guy/girl is a 1vsXer" but without proving that you are able to successfully fight outnumbered on a regular basis I wouldnt say a soloer can be considered a 1vsXer. Edit: Guess I gotta mention it again. This is only my opinion so feel free to discuss it

Do you mean good players that zerg surf (ungrouped ofc) when you say "the great ungrouped"? If so, ppl zerg surfing are generally just called "zerg surfers" no matter If they are good or not. Same goes for guildgroups aswell. Could imagine soloers/1vsXer/small scalers labeled players with this term.

Anrose · June 2018

So according to OP, exactly what sort of play is “acceptable”?

Are we to deduce that the devs were wrong for designing this game for large groups?

Please, @raviour, tell us how we should play the game in order to do it the “right way”.

Let’s end this group size elitism once and for all so that we may all play AvA PvP in approved group sizes outside the parameters that were set by the people who made this game.

Etaniel · June 2018

Anrose wrote: »

So according to OP, exactly what sort of play is “acceptable”?

Are we to deduce that the devs were wrong for designing this game for large groups?

Please, @raviour, tell us how we should play the game in order to do it the “right way”.

Let’s end this group size elitism once and for all so that we may all play AvA PvP in approved group sizes outside the parameters that were set by the people who made this game.

I think that the devs designed the game for large groups yes, not ball groups. Don't think they would have explicitely said that they were trying to find ways to incite people to spread out if it was intended.

Biro123 · June 2018

I'm looking for a term that fits the general player/playstyle, not what or how well he's doing at that particular time.
I mean lets take a 1vXer.. Now I see 1vX as something that just doesn't happen successfully very often nowadays anyway.. sometimes its successful(lets say 20% of the time), mostly the 1vXer escapes (not a win, not a loss), sometimes he dies. Does that mean he is only a 1vXer 20% of the time? What is he the rest of the time? A soloer? Is a soloer by definition a failed 1vXer?

Too damn complicated.. Can't we just call somebody who attempts to 1vX most of the time a 1vXer, and somebody who is ungrouped a soloer, and someone who is in a group, simply part of a group.

Yeah, sometimes they all come together and make up a zerg - but doesn't change what they are. A soloer can zerg-surf, or he can 1vX, or he can small-scale.. That's why I do it - the freedom to roll from one to another whenever you want. There are quite a few of us - alliance-minded but ungrouped. Often bumping into each other as we see we're needed at the same place at the same time. Usually clearing resources behind the lines, or supporting the weaker front while the main zerg pushes the other way or simply reading the map, anticipating where the next attack will be and watching for it.. Too alliance-minded to leave the flashpoints. Never grouped but sometimes zerging. The great ungrouped..

I want a label - Zergling aint it - and if it aint soloer, then what is it??