Mureel wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Solely based on the fact that tanks wear dps gear to aid the dps, I'm going to give it to them.

Dps wears dps gear.

Healers wear healing gear.

Tanks wear a medium armor set that contributes almost *nothing* to their function to buff the dps.

Lol because spc doesn't buff dps. Nor does combat prayer, nor ele drain, nor does worm make magicka skills for up to 12 cheaper, nor does mender debuff adds.

Most healers wear buff sets not healing sets. Read them. You'll see.

Even master resto which is BIS resto, what does it do?

Yep.

DoctorESO wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

spc doesn't buff dps. Nor does combat prayer, nor ele drain, nor does worm make magicka skills for up to 12 cheaper, nor does mender debuff adds.

Actually, they do. That's why the meta is for healers to wear these "support" sets.

The point being the sets' main benefits are group buffs- not just healing. Any healer only healing is already failing.

The only role that should do only one thing is DPS - tanks and heals need to be doing more then just taunting/healing

Yes, absolutely correct! Tanks and healers do more than their namesakes suggest.

Mureel wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Solely based on the fact that tanks wear dps gear to aid the dps, I'm going to give it to them.

Dps wears dps gear.

Healers wear healing gear.

Tanks wear a medium armor set that contributes almost *nothing* to their function to buff the dps.

Lol because spc doesn't buff dps. Nor does combat prayer, nor ele drain, nor does worm make magicka skills for up to 12 cheaper, nor does mender debuff adds.

Most healers wear buff sets not healing sets. Read them. You'll see.

Even master resto which is BIS resto, what does it do?

Yep.

DoctorESO wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

spc doesn't buff dps. Nor does combat prayer, nor ele drain, nor does worm make magicka skills for up to 12 cheaper, nor does mender debuff adds.

Actually, they do. That's why the meta is for healers to wear these "support" sets.

The point being the sets' main benefits are group buffs- not just healing. Any healer only healing is already failing.

The only role that should do only one thing is DPS - tanks and heals need to be doing more then just taunting/healing

Moving the goal posts by cherry picking only the "main benefits" of a set doesn't win the discussion you started with him about it. The 2, 3, 4 pc's all benefit a heal build, and actually - just having bonus healing doesn't mean a set would be BiS for a healer even without requiring them to wear buff sets - because having cost reduction to your abilities, having more spell damage, having bosses hit softer so you have an easier time healing - those actually are all benefits to a healer of those 5 pieces. They just happen to benefit the group as well.

You cannot say that about Alkosh. The closest benefit you get is if you have a stam build tank and are happy to have Robust jewelry and the fact that if you have a good dps team, stuff will die faster as they make use of the increased pen. Extra weapon damage, weapon crit, increased damage in dungeons, and doing a physical damage dot when you aren't built for physical damage all do absolutely nothing for the tank. No one in the game is "required' to wear a set where the 2, 3, 4 and arguably 5 pc sets do nothing for their build.

I go along with most in saying that support builds like healers and tanks should be as tanky/healy as they need to be and then the rest goes to buffing the group.

Unfortunately ZoS has repeatedly moved the goal posts in tanking over the last year and a half since a bit before MW and of course Alkosh was well established as a meta tank set and groups/dps'ers have grown accustomed to it. So as the "be as tanky as you need to be" moves, the "rest going to buffs" isn't allowed to shift and the job get increasing more difficult.

This is reinforced by top groups posting tank builds or talking about their tanks not having any problems, etc etc. But you can tank practically naked for the best groups in the game. One reason I don't hammer down on the fact that tanks have the hardest job is b/c if you have a great team, the tank actually has a really easy job.

BUT, let's remember that's like what 1% of the gamers, 5% even? Maybe bump it up to 25% being solid enough to run most basic vet HMs and stuff even if they don't get top scores. So, IMO, what makes tanks job the hardest is the meta they are forced into makes their job harder than it already is for most of the players they will run with if they don't have an established/good guild group to run with.

And people can say all they want about if a healer is just healing or a tank just taunting not being enough (it's not, I don't disagree their is more they can do), but let's not downplay that that is the most important part of their jobs. If they die b/c they aren't tanky enough or don't heal then the group goes down if the content is at all challenging. For some players in here that don't see the need to drop sets like Alkosh for something else, haven't run with a group where you actually need to do that just to do the base part of your job. Trust me, there are plenty of them out there. If I'm tanking for a group where I'm doing over 75% of my own healing, running Alkosh/Ebon isn't going to cut it for me. But if you have groups talking crap about you b/c you dare to run something that's not the meta or not giving them a debuff despite your current needs, then it makes your job less enjoyable/harder. So in the end, I'm looking at a lot of different factors that make a role harder, including the community/meta/players.

Personally, I think being one of the "best dps in the game" is the hardest job. But being good enough to do all content, including vHM's - you don't have to be one of those guys, the bar is much lower for that and that is all most groups will need out of you unless you are looking to get into a hard core trial guild. And tanks and healers, in the end, just have to be "good enough". I think it really comes down to what a player gets into that they enjoy the most.

I think a lot rests on the shoulders of the tank. I'm not saying it's terribly hard to just survive incoming damage reasonably but there is much more to a tank than just surviving.

Best dps ever may find it difficult to get the numbers they're used to and/or stay alive if tank isn't doing their job well.

Best healer ever will have a hell of a time keeping the team alive if tank isn't doing their job well.

Jaimeh wrote: »

I think all roles have their challenges; DDs have to keep up with their rotation, while trusting their tanks/healers to take mobs away from them/heal and buff them, but performing a tight rotation while going through mechanics is not easy feat. Healers don't necessarily have to keep up with a strict roration, but they have to think ahead, knowing when to throw in big heals when there will be a lot of damage, and they also have to react fast to emergenecy moments. Tanks have to position and debuff boss, keep an eye for mobs that spawn so they can aggro them, while taking a great amount of damage, and managing their own resources. Therefore, while I think DPS'ing is hard from an individual skill and aptitude standpoint, I personally find tanking and healing more stressful and demanding.

To add a bit more to my post above, I think there are three tiers when it comes to roles:

Tier 1 is the DPS; it’s difficult being a good DPS, a player’s hands have to move fast in order to have a fast rotation, and put out the most damage possible. As a role though, a DPS mostly has to mind themselves, the mechanics of a given fight, and resurrecting fallen group-mates.

Tier 2 is the tanks; the tank has to mind themselves, mechanics, and the boss. From an aptitude perspective tanking is easy--no need for hand acrobatics, but from a role perspective, it’s hard work: they have to constantly heavy attack, block, be sharply focused on a boss’s particular phases, and aggro mobs that spawn. For example, in fights where the tank has to block a geyser or lava eruption, he/she has to juggle boss and possibly mobs, while keeping an eye for the eruption, and the more complex the mechanics, the more difficult it becomes to juggle these things.

Tier 3 is the healers; they have to mind, themselves, the DPS, the tank, and the boss, in that they have to be focused in the fight, so they can provide big heals when needed, pre-emptively ward their group, etc. Having played all three roles, I find healing the most stressful at end-game level.

Thus, I think when discussing roles, there should be a distinction between physical skill, and the demands of a given role. DPS requires the most skill, but tanking and healing are a lot more demanding as roles, in my opinion.

I've only dps' d, but I have to think it's the healer. Having to constantly manage not only your own stats but manage your teammates health, stay out of danger, etc just seems like a lot of responsibility versus doing nothing but focusing on damage and staying out of danger.

Takes no time, at least for me, to look up a high dps build, practice that rotation and churn out high dps. I just don't see the difficulty in that.

Edit- stupid laggy phone, vote should have said heal.

It really depends on the content.

For example, tanking is the easiest job in vAA, but it is by far the hardest job in vHoF. In vet Scalecaller and Fang Lair, I think that the tank has the hardest job, but in vet WGT and ICP, the tank's job is quite simple and easy.

And it's sometimes even more nuanced than that--in vAS HM, the offtank has what some might argue is the hardest job while the maintank has one of the easiest jobs.

Different content challenge the roles in different ways. There's no one-size-fits-all answer.

Tanking is hit and miss, for example fungal grotto 1 is extremely easy, where as vhof is extremely hard. Dps is argueabley harder in some fights but I feel the hardest things to do are on a tank.

Depends on the content

In a pug running normal it is the dps because half the time your tank won’t taunk, leaving the boss to wander around and squash the delicate little damage dealers as their output will naturally agro him. Also your healer is more often than not some 10k health potatoe who does nothing except the odd light attack... this kind of nonsense is why is just use solo builds in normal dungeons, I can do all three roles fairly well, at that point the cretins are just luggage to be honest

In vet it’s a tank as the game is bent on one shoting you, hence end game meta groups all bottleneck down to maximum dps because there is only so long a tank can survive that avalanche of damage

All of them at once

Note that most people havent been in (or more precisely havent done) any really hard content. How can one say which one of these (PUG groups consist of these for 90%) is harder:
- Tanks that taunt boss and stand still doing nothing else (and thanks god if they at least taunt)
- DPS which do less damage on CP cap then they should be doing with light attacks only
- Healers which are not needed there at all that stand all the fight doing nothing (because theres nothing to heal really), rarely throwing some healing spell
I cant pick one.

In hard content though it goes like this. Everyone, tanks, heal, DPS do their rotation (of buffs/debuffs for healers and tanks), so far it is equal for all of them. What makes a role difficult is extra mechanics, which encounter can have. Like in vet cloudrest most DDs just do their rotation, while 2+2 groups closes portals. For the latter this encounter is hard, for the former - it is not. And when talking about extra mechanics, in new trials and dungeons they more often fall on tanks.

Plus if DD make a mistake, someone backs him up and it is not usually critical, but when tank do a mistake (in the same vet cloudrest) it is guaranteed wipe

So it is impossible to say in general which role is harder, but in new end-game content it is usually tanking

Quite honestly, it depends on the content. Not one role is going to have the easiest or hardest time in each trial, dungeon, etc.

That said, I'd say every role is difficult if you want to truly excel at said role and be the best that you can be at it.

Regarding vet content. Some instances where if you cannot put out enough damage it becomes impossible to move forward.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

It depends on the situation and group but its normally tank with heals being second. DPS you can snooze through. Push 1, LA, 2, LA, 3, HA, 4, LA, 5, WS, 1, LA... not that hard.

Heals requires more effort to do especially when you have min max metas with 14k hp food buffed and take a hit like a wet paper sack. Tank requires the most knowledge and effort to do correctly. Most people dont tank correctly, the half ass their way through it and expect heals to cover it. In that regard heals would be harder since heals has to make up for literally everyone else not doing their job.

You can look at it another way...
* If a tank dies, its possible that heals isnt going to be able to cover the loss of a proper tank with more heals especially on squishy dps.
* If heals die, in most groups, its probably going to lead to a wipe.
* If DPS dies, it has minimum impact on the likelihood of a wipe or someone else dying.

False. There are definitely trial and vet dungeon scenarios where dps dying is absolutely lethal to the group, but sure for an average vet dungeon it's not really critical. But for the average vet dungeon and tank or healer death isn't really that impactful either.

Try beating mazzatun HM with a dps down when a totem pops up in the middle of an add phase in execute. You are pretty much toast. Same with any vet trial where low dps leads to mechanical wipes (think second boss vHoF), or ridiculous levels of enrage damage (vAS +x).

So much button mashing and pray that your internet does not betray you during mechanics.