Which PvE role is the hardest?

DoctorESO

DPS

Mureel wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Solely based on the fact that tanks wear dps gear to aid the dps, I'm going to give it to them.

Dps wears dps gear.

Healers wear healing gear.

Tanks wear a medium armor set that contributes almost *nothing* to their function to buff the dps.

Lol because spc doesn't buff dps. Nor does combat prayer, nor ele drain, nor does worm make magicka skills for up to 12 cheaper, nor does mender debuff adds.

Most healers wear buff sets not healing sets. Read them. You'll see.

Even master resto which is BIS resto, what does it do?

Yep.

DoctorESO wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

spc doesn't buff dps. Nor does combat prayer, nor ele drain, nor does worm make magicka skills for up to 12 cheaper, nor does mender debuff adds.

Actually, they do. That's why the meta is for healers to wear these "support" sets.

The point being the sets' main benefits are group buffs- not just healing. Any healer only healing is already failing.

The only role that should do only one thing is DPS - tanks and heals need to be doing more then just taunting/healing

Yes, absolutely correct! Tanks and healers do more than their namesakes suggest.

xaraan

Mureel wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Solely based on the fact that tanks wear dps gear to aid the dps, I'm going to give it to them.

Dps wears dps gear.

Healers wear healing gear.

Tanks wear a medium armor set that contributes almost *nothing* to their function to buff the dps.

Lol because spc doesn't buff dps. Nor does combat prayer, nor ele drain, nor does worm make magicka skills for up to 12 cheaper, nor does mender debuff adds.

Most healers wear buff sets not healing sets. Read them. You'll see.

Even master resto which is BIS resto, what does it do?

Yep.

Between my healer and tank, I have to say - Big difference between those sets that all give things in their various pieces that help healing/magicka and Alkosh that literally gives a tank nothing in it's 2,3,4, 5 pc or traits. The stam is fine, but the 'meta' isn't stam anymore unless you have a specific build - but tanks have no choice, this set is forced on them. (Even though it's performing very very well as a dps set with synergies working well). But literally, every set you mentioned that healers where for buffs also helps them out (the buffs help their heals/magicka sustain and the 2/3/4 piece bonuses help as well).

As for the thread - I'll say support is the hardest when you have a group that isn't crazy good dps and finding solid dps that also works the mechanics is not easy. In the end though, I think we can look at how hard it is to find certain roles for runs and tell who likes doing what the most and part of the reason a lot of players I've run with don't use their tank alts anymore is because of how much harder it has become.

xaraan

Mureel wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Solely based on the fact that tanks wear dps gear to aid the dps, I'm going to give it to them.

Dps wears dps gear.

Healers wear healing gear.

Tanks wear a medium armor set that contributes almost *nothing* to their function to buff the dps.

Lol because spc doesn't buff dps. Nor does combat prayer, nor ele drain, nor does worm make magicka skills for up to 12 cheaper, nor does mender debuff adds.

Most healers wear buff sets not healing sets. Read them. You'll see.

Even master resto which is BIS resto, what does it do?

Yep.

DoctorESO wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

spc doesn't buff dps. Nor does combat prayer, nor ele drain, nor does worm make magicka skills for up to 12 cheaper, nor does mender debuff adds.

Actually, they do. That's why the meta is for healers to wear these "support" sets.

The point being the sets' main benefits are group buffs- not just healing. Any healer only healing is already failing.

The only role that should do only one thing is DPS - tanks and heals need to be doing more then just taunting/healing

Moving the goal posts by cherry picking only the "main benefits" of a set doesn't win the discussion you started with him about it. The 2, 3, 4 pc's all benefit a heal build, and actually - just having bonus healing doesn't mean a set would be BiS for a healer even without requiring them to wear buff sets - because having cost reduction to your abilities, having more spell damage, having bosses hit softer so you have an easier time healing - those actually are all benefits to a healer of those 5 pieces. They just happen to benefit the group as well.

You cannot say that about Alkosh. The closest benefit you get is if you have a stam build tank and are happy to have Robust jewelry and the fact that if you have a good dps team, stuff will die faster as they make use of the increased pen. Extra weapon damage, weapon crit, increased damage in dungeons, and doing a physical damage dot when you aren't built for physical damage all do absolutely nothing for the tank. No one in the game is "required' to wear a set where the 2, 3, 4 and arguably 5 pc sets do nothing for their build.

I go along with most in saying that support builds like healers and tanks should be as tanky/healy as they need to be and then the rest goes to buffing the group.

Unfortunately ZoS has repeatedly moved the goal posts in tanking over the last year and a half since a bit before MW and of course Alkosh was well established as a meta tank set and groups/dps'ers have grown accustomed to it. So as the "be as tanky as you need to be" moves, the "rest going to buffs" isn't allowed to shift and the job get increasing more difficult.

This is reinforced by top groups posting tank builds or talking about their tanks not having any problems, etc etc. But you can tank practically naked for the best groups in the game. One reason I don't hammer down on the fact that tanks have the hardest job is b/c if you have a great team, the tank actually has a really easy job.

BUT, let's remember that's like what 1% of the gamers, 5% even? Maybe bump it up to 25% being solid enough to run most basic vet HMs and stuff even if they don't get top scores. So, IMO, what makes tanks job the hardest is the meta they are forced into makes their job harder than it already is for most of the players they will run with if they don't have an established/good guild group to run with.

And people can say all they want about if a healer is just healing or a tank just taunting not being enough (it's not, I don't disagree their is more they can do), but let's not downplay that that is the most important part of their jobs. If they die b/c they aren't tanky enough or don't heal then the group goes down if the content is at all challenging. For some players in here that don't see the need to drop sets like Alkosh for something else, haven't run with a group where you actually need to do that just to do the base part of your job. Trust me, there are plenty of them out there. If I'm tanking for a group where I'm doing over 75% of my own healing, running Alkosh/Ebon isn't going to cut it for me. But if you have groups talking crap about you b/c you dare to run something that's not the meta or not giving them a debuff despite your current needs, then it makes your job less enjoyable/harder. So in the end, I'm looking at a lot of different factors that make a role harder, including the community/meta/players.

Personally, I think being one of the "best dps in the game" is the hardest job. But being good enough to do all content, including vHM's - you don't have to be one of those guys, the bar is much lower for that and that is all most groups will need out of you unless you are looking to get into a hard core trial guild. And tanks and healers, in the end, just have to be "good enough". I think it really comes down to what a player gets into that they enjoy the most.

Septimus_Magna

DPS

The tank and heal checks in this game are usually pretty easy to deal with. Many mechanics one shot DDs so as a healer you just need to keep them alive from normal dmg. Tanking is usually just taunting, debuffing and managing your resources so also not that hard imo. Generating good dps is pretty difficult while staying alive and maintaining resources.

Ley

Tank

I think a lot rests on the shoulders of the tank. I'm not saying it's terribly hard to just survive incoming damage reasonably but there is much more to a tank than just surviving.

Best dps ever may find it difficult to get the numbers they're used to and/or stay alive if tank isn't doing their job well.

Best healer ever will have a hell of a time keeping the team alive if tank isn't doing their job well.

Tinus_92

Tank

For regular dungeons and such, most people seem to be struggling doing decent dps, while 'decent' healing is already be achieved by using ele drain and some heals. A 'decent' tank holds their taunt, keeps the boss in position and doesn't die.

If we're however looking at the 'hardest' role, you'll still come back to healers and especially tanks, considering veteran trials. If your tank dies, the group is gone. With the sustain nerf and such, tanking craglorn hardmodes, vmol, vhof and vAS aren't easy jobs. Good healers, while keeping up all buffs/debuffs, can be considered a close second hardest role.

Jaimeh

Jaimeh wrote: »

I think all roles have their challenges; DDs have to keep up with their rotation, while trusting their tanks/healers to take mobs away from them/heal and buff them, but performing a tight rotation while going through mechanics is not easy feat. Healers don't necessarily have to keep up with a strict roration, but they have to think ahead, knowing when to throw in big heals when there will be a lot of damage, and they also have to react fast to emergenecy moments. Tanks have to position and debuff boss, keep an eye for mobs that spawn so they can aggro them, while taking a great amount of damage, and managing their own resources. Therefore, while I think DPS'ing is hard from an individual skill and aptitude standpoint, I personally find tanking and healing more stressful and demanding.

To add a bit more to my post above, I think there are three tiers when it comes to roles:

Tier 1 is the DPS; it’s difficult being a good DPS, a player’s hands have to move fast in order to have a fast rotation, and put out the most damage possible. As a role though, a DPS mostly has to mind themselves, the mechanics of a given fight, and resurrecting fallen group-mates.

Tier 2 is the tanks; the tank has to mind themselves, mechanics, and the boss. From an aptitude perspective tanking is easy--no need for hand acrobatics, but from a role perspective, it’s hard work: they have to constantly heavy attack, block, be sharply focused on a boss’s particular phases, and aggro mobs that spawn. For example, in fights where the tank has to block a geyser or lava eruption, he/she has to juggle boss and possibly mobs, while keeping an eye for the eruption, and the more complex the mechanics, the more difficult it becomes to juggle these things.

Tier 3 is the healers; they have to mind, themselves, the DPS, the tank, and the boss, in that they have to be focused in the fight, so they can provide big heals when needed, pre-emptively ward their group, etc. Having played all three roles, I find healing the most stressful at end-game level.

Thus, I think when discussing roles, there should be a distinction between physical skill, and the demands of a given role. DPS requires the most skill, but tanking and healing are a lot more demanding as roles, in my opinion.

dazee

DPS

Doing Super amazing Epeen dps is definitely harder than tanking and probably healing.

Sevn

DPS

I've only dps' d, but I have to think it's the healer. Having to constantly manage not only your own stats but manage your teammates health, stay out of danger, etc just seems like a lot of responsibility versus doing nothing but focusing on damage and staying out of danger.

Takes no time, at least for me, to look up a high dps build, practice that rotation and churn out high dps. I just don't see the difficulty in that.

Edit- stupid laggy phone, vote should have said heal.

Morgul667

DPS

Used to think it was the tank then I played one.

Used to think it was the healer then I played one.

Now I feel the DPS is the hardest job.

Anyway it all depends on the contents. Tanking vAA axes is not something easy.

code65536

It really depends on the content.

For example, tanking is the easiest job in vAA, but it is by far the hardest job in vHoF. In vet Scalecaller and Fang Lair, I think that the tank has the hardest job, but in vet WGT and ICP, the tank's job is quite simple and easy.

And it's sometimes even more nuanced than that--in vAS HM, the offtank has what some might argue is the hardest job while the maintank has one of the easiest jobs.

Different content challenge the roles in different ways. There's no one-size-fits-all answer.

DoctorESO

DPS

Also - trials vs. dungeons (vet of course)? That might change some people's answers.

SupremeRissole

Tank

Tanking is hit and miss, for example fungal grotto 1 is extremely easy, where as vhof is extremely hard. Dps is argueabley harder in some fights but I feel the hardest things to do are on a tank.

Mureel

DoctorESO wrote: »

You can't heal or tank your way to content completion, but you sure can DPS your way.

Lol not if you're dead. Because you're a paper airplane in a volcano. Pls.

Integral1900

Depends on the content

In a pug running normal it is the dps because half the time your tank won’t taunk, leaving the boss to wander around and squash the delicate little damage dealers as their output will naturally agro him. Also your healer is more often than not some 10k health potatoe who does nothing except the odd light attack... this kind of nonsense is why is just use solo builds in normal dungeons, I can do all three roles fairly well, at that point the cretins are just luggage to be honest

In vet it’s a tank as the game is bent on one shoting you, hence end game meta groups all bottleneck down to maximum dps because there is only so long a tank can survive that avalanche of damage

Drummerx04

DPS

DPS is almost ironically the most thankless job.

Even if you can stay alive yourself and deal reasonably high end damage, you can still end up in crap situations.

Rezzing is the worst thing in the world and there is just an expectation that DPS will be the ones to do it... let me break down a situation where this is frustrating:

1. tank and dps dies
2. boss and all adds target me because I damaged them
3. healer just watches me kite velidreth and adds around for 3 minutes while picking his/her nose over the corpses of our falling group members until I run out of resources and die
4. group wipe

Rezzing in vet trials often turns into a game of "Can I complete this rez before getting one shot by this mechanic?" And you'd be amazed how many rezzers will just stand there and die instead of cancelling the rez and actively protecting themselves.

I rest my case.

BigBadVolk

All of them at once

Mureel

Drummerx04 wrote: »

DPS is almost ironically the most thankless job.

Even if you can stay alive yourself and deal reasonably high end damage, you can still end up in crap situations.

Rezzing is the worst thing in the world and there is just an expectation that DPS will be the ones to do it... let me break down a situation where this is frustrating:

1. tank and dps dies
2. boss and all adds target me because I damaged them
3. healer just watches me kite velidreth and adds around for 3 minutes while picking his/her nose over the corpses of our falling group members until I run out of resources and die
4. group wipe

Rezzing in vet trials often turns into a game of "Can I complete this rez before getting one shot by this mechanic?" And you'd be amazed how many rezzers will just stand there and die instead of cancelling the rez and actively protecting themselves.

I rest my case.

And you wouldn't believe how many times I've watched a healer try and Rez because DPS seem to have chronic ADHD.

Also, someone doing something badly (continuing Rez when in imminent danger) doesn't make any case except for 'that person was a noob' because they didn't know wtf to do.

I'll go ya one further: 7+/10 times when a dps dies in raid, it's to their own failure and nothing to do with the healer.

commdt

Tank

Note that most people havent been in (or more precisely havent done) any really hard content. How can one say which one of these (PUG groups consist of these for 90%) is harder:
- Tanks that taunt boss and stand still doing nothing else (and thanks god if they at least taunt)
- DPS which do less damage on CP cap then they should be doing with light attacks only
- Healers which are not needed there at all that stand all the fight doing nothing (because theres nothing to heal really), rarely throwing some healing spell
I cant pick one.

In hard content though it goes like this. Everyone, tanks, heal, DPS do their rotation (of buffs/debuffs for healers and tanks), so far it is equal for all of them. What makes a role difficult is extra mechanics, which encounter can have. Like in vet cloudrest most DDs just do their rotation, while 2+2 groups closes portals. For the latter this encounter is hard, for the former - it is not. And when talking about extra mechanics, in new trials and dungeons they more often fall on tanks.

Plus if DD make a mistake, someone backs him up and it is not usually critical, but when tank do a mistake (in the same vet cloudrest) it is guaranteed wipe

So it is impossible to say in general which role is harder, but in new end-game content it is usually tanking

pizzaow

Being really good is hard.

Really good dps tend to make really good healers and really good tanks. All roles are better when they master the mechanics and are able to adjust while performing their role optimally.

Tanks and healers are equally important to total damage. Saying that alkosh / combat prayer uptime doesn't matter if the content is finished is the same as saying a dps doing 40K vs 50k doesn't matter as long as the content is finished. The reason uptime is important is it buffs group dps- the same as uptime from a dps' dots... the main reason why a group parse is 50% higher than solo is because of these buffs.

Watch this video of what goes on in the mind of a really good tank to keep his up-times high (selectively taking certain synegeries, etc.):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nxvs7Mwfnk

A really good dps is going to anticipate things (like lack of synergies for the tank) and adjust on the fly, while keeping his rotation up. Similarly, a really good healer will anticipate the boss' most dangerous attacks and debuff/heal ahead of time while maintaining uptimes and watching for dps that are in trouble.

Real skill comes from being able to adjust on the fly if things go wrong. If a tank looses aggro, if a DPS dies, if bad RNG happens having situation awareness is the valuable piece.

fioskal

Quite honestly, it depends on the content. Not one role is going to have the easiest or hardest time in each trial, dungeon, etc.

That said, I'd say every role is difficult if you want to truly excel at said role and be the best that you can be at it.

Drummerx04

DPS

commdt wrote: »

Note that most people havent been in (or more precisely havent done) any really hard content. How can one say which one of these (PUG groups consist of these for 90%) is harder:
- Tanks that taunt boss and stand still doing nothing else (and thanks god if they at least taunt)
- DPS which do less damage on CP cap then they should be doing with light attacks only
- Healers which are not needed there at all that stand all the fight doing nothing (because theres nothing to heal really), rarely throwing some healing spell
I cant pick one.

In hard content though it goes like this. Everyone, tanks, heal, DPS do their rotation (of buffs/debuffs for healers and tanks), so far it is equal for all of them. What makes a role difficult is extra mechanics, which encounter can have. Like in vet cloudrest most DDs just do their rotation, while 2+2 groups closes portals. For the latter this encounter is hard, for the former - it is not. And when talking about extra mechanics, in new trials and dungeons they more often fall on tanks.

Plus if DD make a mistake, someone backs him up and it is not usually critical, but when tank do a mistake (in the same vet cloudrest) it is guaranteed wipe

So it is impossible to say in general which role is harder, but in new end-game content it is usually tanking

pizzaow wrote: »

Being really good is hard.

Really good dps tend to make really good healers and really good tanks. All roles are better when they master the mechanics and are able to adjust while performing their role optimally.

Tanks and healers are equally important to total damage. Saying that alkosh / combat prayer uptime doesn't matter if the content is finished is the same as saying a dps doing 40K vs 50k doesn't matter as long as the content is finished. The reason uptime is important is it buffs group dps- the same as uptime from a dps' dots... the main reason why a group parse is 50% higher than solo is because of these buffs.

Watch this video of what goes on in the mind of a really good tank to keep his up-times high (selectively taking certain synegeries, etc.):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nxvs7Mwfnk

A really good dps is going to anticipate things (like lack of synergies for the tank) and adjust on the fly, while keeping his rotation up. Similarly, a really good healer will anticipate the boss' most dangerous attacks and debuff/heal ahead of time while maintaining uptimes and watching for dps that are in trouble.

Real skill comes from being able to adjust on the fly if things go wrong. If a tank looses aggro, if a DPS dies, if bad RNG happens having situation awareness is the valuable piece.

There's basically nothing left to say

/threadcomplete

Zacuel

DPS

Regarding vet content. Some instances where if you cannot put out enough damage it becomes impossible to move forward.

Drdeath20

Heal

True damage dealers that can dps 30k and above.

If your damage dealers can do that you will be able to complete all content. With that you will find that (most of the time) you do not need a true healer but more of a 3rd damage dealer who keeps an eye on heals.

I choose dps not sure why its showing healer

Anotherone773

Tank

It depends on the situation and group but its normally tank with heals being second. DPS you can snooze through. Push 1, LA, 2, LA, 3, HA, 4, LA, 5, WS, 1, LA... not that hard.

Heals requires more effort to do especially when you have min max metas with 14k hp food buffed and take a hit like a wet paper sack. Tank requires the most knowledge and effort to do correctly. Most people dont tank correctly, the half ass their way through it and expect heals to cover it. In that regard heals would be harder since heals has to make up for literally everyone else not doing their job.

You can look at it another way...
* If a tank dies, its possible that heals isnt going to be able to cover the loss of a proper tank with more heals especially on squishy dps.
* If heals die, in most groups, its probably going to lead to a wipe.
* If DPS dies, it has minimum impact on the likelihood of a wipe or someone else dying.

swirve

Tank

DPS... lol, not.

Drummerx04

DPS

Anotherone773 wrote: »

It depends on the situation and group but its normally tank with heals being second. DPS you can snooze through. Push 1, LA, 2, LA, 3, HA, 4, LA, 5, WS, 1, LA... not that hard.

Heals requires more effort to do especially when you have min max metas with 14k hp food buffed and take a hit like a wet paper sack. Tank requires the most knowledge and effort to do correctly. Most people dont tank correctly, the half ass their way through it and expect heals to cover it. In that regard heals would be harder since heals has to make up for literally everyone else not doing their job.

You can look at it another way...
* If a tank dies, its possible that heals isnt going to be able to cover the loss of a proper tank with more heals especially on squishy dps.
* If heals die, in most groups, its probably going to lead to a wipe.
* If DPS dies, it has minimum impact on the likelihood of a wipe or someone else dying.

False. There are definitely trial and vet dungeon scenarios where dps dying is absolutely lethal to the group, but sure for an average vet dungeon it's not really critical. But for the average vet dungeon and tank or healer death isn't really that impactful either.

Try beating mazzatun HM with a dps down when a totem pops up in the middle of an add phase in execute. You are pretty much toast. Same with any vet trial where low dps leads to mechanical wipes (think second boss vHoF), or ridiculous levels of enrage damage (vAS +x).

BigBadVolk

All three combined

The_Protagonist

DPS

So much button mashing and pray that your internet does not betray you during mechanics.

ATomiX96

Tank

Tanking by far the most stressful role and arguably the hardest. (if were talking endgame raiding, actually decent scores and such)
Debuffs gotta be on point, positioning needs to be on point, smart utilization of synergies for high alkosh uptime etc. etc.
DDing has no responsibility, keep your dots up, weave light attacks, yell at the healer for shards/orbs and you're golden
And thats comming from a DD who cleared all trials in hardmode (pre summerset) + immortal redeemer.