PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Nightblade Balance

aeowulf · May 2018

DDuke wrote: »

I've also played with both skills, and while I see the merits of Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks when it comes to sustain, it's a garbage skill for healing.

It's not exactly awesome for sustain either depending on the role you play. It's what? A couple of heavy attacks worth of resources once every 20 seconds... The cast cost needs to swap pools, the 'on light/heavy attack' needs to be changed to on damage with cooldown or dodge (would help NB tanks get use from from it - they have no class friendly sustain), the healing can be dodged so that should be changed too. NB get what I beleive to be the only dodgable heal in the game? (and the only suicide - all classes should get this, i'm calling for balance!!) Needs to go back to restoring resources and not be a heal.

The best bits of this skill are the passives

Sun7dance · May 2018

I'm not on the PTS, so maybe you can answer my question:

Did ZOS remove all crit. heals in cloak completly or is it still possible to let Rally crit?

1st Rally-->Cloak-->2nd Rally-->crit. heal

Thx

technohic · May 2018

Sun7dance wrote: »

I'm not on the PTS, so maybe you can answer my question:

Did ZOS remove all crit. heals in cloak completly or is it still possible to let Rally crit?

1st Rally-->Cloak-->2nd Rally-->crit. heal

Thx

Doesn't appear to work on rally.

Jaxaxo · May 2018

Sun7dance wrote: »

I'm not on the PTS, so maybe you can answer my question:

Did ZOS remove all crit. heals in cloak completly or is it still possible to let Rally crit?

1st Rally-->Cloak-->2nd Rally-->crit. heal

Thx

Cloak crit is now only working on direct dmg.

waitwhat · May 2018

Derra wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

In other words, the skills are largely on-par with one another, and even if Siphoning is a slightly more reliable heal, it is sensibly and justifiably so.

Not much else that i said : P

Yeah it's mostly an academic discussion, but I do want to put to bed the idea that Siphoning is somehow a safer heal.

EDIT: Also the idea that many PvP sorcs don't have DoTs needs to go too.

Nevasca · May 2018

What if sap essence returned resources, essentially working like the old siphoning attacks? My proposal would be something like this:

Old:

Sap Essence (Morph): Siphon the vigor from your enemies’ blood, dealing x Magic Damage to all nearby enemies and healing you and your allies for x plus 20% for each enemy hit.
If an enemy is hit, you gain Major Brutality and Major Sorcery, increasing Weapon and Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds

New:

Sap Essence (Morph): Siphon the vigor from your enemies’ blood, dealing x Magic Damage to all nearby enemies and healing you and your allies for x plus 20% for each enemy hit. You restore x stamina and magicka per enemy hit.
If an enemy is hit, you gain Major Sorcery, increasing Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds

The aim is to help sustain for NB tanks. They were gutted in Morrowind patch with the siphoning strikes changes, which don't get me wrong were definitly needed, but NB tank unique playstyle is dead. This change would bring it back, and would distinct tank NB from other classes much more. This will also help healers, which is a big plus but I doubt it would make them OP. As for MagDD using this, doubt it would be OP as well.

Could even change Power Extraction (stamina morph), so it restores stamina for each enemy hit as well. That skill is really weak compared to Steel Tornado, this would make it a more viable choice rather than just being there for the Major Brutality buff, which is easily obtained through pots.

I would also like to see more changes to Dark Shade. They are really usefull now, since it's an AoE minor maim, but it's such an easy debuff to get access to, I am not sure if it will be enough. Adding a snare or immobilization would seal the deal imo. It will make a must for NB Tank, and would be a viable option for PvP as well.

actosh · May 2018

@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Its nice that we are going to receive some buffs in Summerset as NB Tanks, but there are still a few issues when comparing them to other classes.

What NB Tanks need in my opinion(maybe i miss out some stuff) are the following things:

- Dark Cloak: Minor Protection duration should be buffed(around 15-18sec), and ONLY affect up to 6 Allies(10-12 meters range).
This would give NB Tanks a way of supporting the group. Since it heals you, it shouldnt be as strong (durationwise) as the wardens frost cloak.

-Dark Shade: The AOE Maim effect should happen every 4 seconds. On pts it feels like rng at the moment, and would make it a more reliable way to aoe maim.

Siphoning Attacks, Leeching Strikes: Both Skills should be redesigned with a morph for Tanking and one for dd/healer role.

Siphoning stay as it is, but restore the ressource that is higher on your character.
Leeching could be changed so that it procs when u get hit. (have to balance out cooldown and amount of restore).
That would ease up the sustain for a lot of NB Tanks, that struggle with it. If you compare it to warden/dk that have easier ways to restore ressources.

For itemization, i dont understand why the new set supports permablocking, when it would be better (more usefull) for ZOS aproach to "tactical blocking". Could be changed to "when u take dmg" and even then i think it may be a situational set.

Another thing to mention, is that dk tank still has access to the engulfing flames special debuff (enemys take more fire dmg from all sources). If mag dk´s are viable in raids, its not a big deal, but if not, theres nothing that beats a dk.

WhipSmartMcoy · May 2018

IARTOI wrote: »

I know after this post most NB players will criticize me but this will bring to NB a balance. Shadowy Disguise skill need some change. As we all know NBs always doing this rolldodge+sneak all the times and its really hard to detect them. I mean for detection best way is using piercing mark but not everyone has that skill and mage light sometimes not helping. My offer is bring cloak fatigue so every next cast in 5 sec cost more magicka like sorcerer's streak fatigue. This would be fair enaugh. Consider it.

If you know that you'll be criticized for your opinion then its probably because you're aware that its wrong lol
Cloak fatigue will not balance a Nb. It's also dumb trying to justify it by using streak. Streak is an aoe stun that teleports your character to a new location. Cloak negates all incoming and single target damage but you still have to manually reposition your character all while avoiding the NUMEROUS ways to be pulled out of stealth.

aeowulf · May 2018

NB tanks need something/anything that makes them accessible to newer players. Whilst I like the change to dark cloak, i'm not so enamoured with any other class changes this patch, with regard to NB tanking.

The above suggestions listed by @actosh, I completely agree with. It's been a year since NB tanks were removed because of a change to siphoning. The feedback from PTS at this time, informed you of this, and it happened. That change made NB tanking innaccessible to most people, espeically those trying to 'break in' to the role or starting a new character. A single change to dark cloak along with the changes to strife/path (which were both used by NB tanks) is not going to change the fundamental requirements of the role, and in a lot of ways make it tougher. Bolstering is taking a massive hit too, that skill has gone in the wrong direction, if you want DPS to collect a buff, that buff has to increase DPS.

Look at it this way. Permablock/having the resources to permablock means you are permanently immune to most CC, permanently take 25% damage & most importantly don't need to learn when to block. Any class that cannot permablock could be given permanent CC immunity or 25% damage reduction and still be disadvantaged in some ways when compared to a class that can permablock. I'm not suggesting this, but I'd like you to see this perspective. It's a massive ease factor boost which is needed by newer players in the tank role. There should be a general significant benefit to anyone not perma-blocking, if that's what you want from some roles.

umagon · May 2018

I find the problem in pve tanking isn’t really the sustain but the lack of opportunity to regenerate resources with heavy attack weaves. Dragon knights bypass the no regeneration of stamina while block by using magicka regeneration builds and the helping hands passive. Which in part is why they excel so well in pve tanking in regards to stamina regeneration.

I think there might be an easy solution without changing class skills, which is to add damage reduction modifier to the taunt mechanic. So, taunted npcs do less damage to the player who taunted them. While changing the scripting for npc’s attacks that fall into the category (design wise) of ones that must be blocked or avoided to base the damage off a percentage of the player’s total health and bypass the damage reduction given by the taunted debuff.

The idea is lower the damage on some npc intermediate attacks for tanks only; to give them more of a chance to heavy attack weave without removing the difficulty of the game content. While still making certain attacks have to be actively blocked or avoided. So, blocking is still a requirement but it’s required up time lowered.

NyassaV · May 2018

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Sun7dance wrote: »

I'm not on the PTS, so maybe you can answer my question:

Did ZOS remove all crit. heals in cloak completly or is it still possible to let Rally crit?

1st Rally-->Cloak-->2nd Rally-->crit. heal

Thx

Cloak crit is now only working on direct dmg.

Healing counts as negative damage (In the game's code. That's why healing was dodgable for a time) so as long as the heal is direct and coming from you it should be a crit hit.

@ZOS_RichLambert

Personally I'm fine with it not critting though

NyassaV · May 2018

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

What if sap essence returned resources, essentially working like the old siphoning attacks? My proposal would be something like this:

Old:

Sap Essence (Morph): Siphon the vigor from your enemies’ blood, dealing x Magic Damage to all nearby enemies and healing you and your allies for x plus 20% for each enemy hit.
If an enemy is hit, you gain Major Brutality and Major Sorcery, increasing Weapon and Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds

New:

Sap Essence (Morph): Siphon the vigor from your enemies’ blood, dealing x Magic Damage to all nearby enemies and healing you and your allies for x plus 20% for each enemy hit. You restore x stamina and magicka per enemy hit.
If an enemy is hit, you gain Major Sorcery, increasing Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds

The aim is to help sustain for NB tanks. They were gutted in Morrowind patch with the siphoning strikes changes, which don't get me wrong were definitly needed, but NB tank unique playstyle is dead. This change would bring it back, and would distinct tank NB from other classes much more. This will also help healers, which is a big plus but I doubt it would make them OP. As for MagDD using this, doubt it would be OP as well.

Could even change Power Extraction (stamina morph), so it restores stamina for each enemy hit as well. That skill is really weak compared to Steel Tornado, this would make it a more viable choice rather than just being there for the Major Brutality buff, which is easily obtained through pots.

I would also like to see more changes to Dark Shade. They are really usefull now, since it's an AoE minor maim, but it's such an easy debuff to get access to, I am not sure if it will be enough. Adding a snare or immobilization would seal the deal imo. It will make a must for NB Tank, and would be a viable option for PvP as well.

Honestly I like this idea, it makes the skill so much more useful

NyassaV · May 2018

@ZOS_Wrobel in the event you don't make the smaart choice and revert the current standing strife change Siphoning attacks needs to have stamina management as well as magicka management. My suggestion is the following;

Current Morphs of this skill give about 4k of each resource back after the duration is finished. With this change that number should be altered to 3.5k (the number is still sorta high so that strife may still be a viable spammable). 3.3k would also be an acceptable amount

Siphioning attacks needs to heal for about 2k health per light attack or maybe 1.5k (to be on par with crit surge) as well as restore 200 magicka and 100 stamina. This is per light attack

In a effort to get stamblades to use other skills than snipe in thier flex spot I suggest buffing the stam sustain component to give it more healing so it actually looks like a desirable skill for survival for both PvE and PvP as that was the original intention of the change
Leeching attacks should heal for 3k per light attack (helping tanks out too if they do light attacks) and restore 300 stam.

These values can of course be adjusted should the Devs see fit

@ZOS_RichLambert

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx · May 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I've also played with both skills, and while I see the merits of Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks when it comes to sustain, it's a garbage skill for healing.

It's not exactly awesome for sustain either depending on the role you play. It's what? A couple of heavy attacks worth of resources once every 20 seconds... The cast cost needs to swap pools, the 'on light/heavy attack' needs to be changed to on damage with cooldown or dodge (would help NB tanks get use from from it - they have no class friendly sustain), the healing can be dodged so that should be changed too. NB get what I beleive to be the only dodgable heal in the game? (and the only suicide - all classes should get this, i'm calling for balance!!) Needs to go back to restoring resources and not be a heal.

The best bits of this skill are the passives

If the class suicide is Offering that you're referring to, I believe they changed that last patch where you cannot kill yourself with the ability anymore. Lol xD

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx · May 2018

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

What if sap essence returned resources, essentially working like the old siphoning attacks? My proposal would be something like this:

Old:

Sap Essence (Morph): Siphon the vigor from your enemies’ blood, dealing x Magic Damage to all nearby enemies and healing you and your allies for x plus 20% for each enemy hit.
If an enemy is hit, you gain Major Brutality and Major Sorcery, increasing Weapon and Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds

New:

Sap Essence (Morph): Siphon the vigor from your enemies’ blood, dealing x Magic Damage to all nearby enemies and healing you and your allies for x plus 20% for each enemy hit. You restore x stamina and magicka per enemy hit.
If an enemy is hit, you gain Major Sorcery, increasing Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds

The aim is to help sustain for NB tanks. They were gutted in Morrowind patch with the siphoning strikes changes, which don't get me wrong were definitly needed, but NB tank unique playstyle is dead. This change would bring it back, and would distinct tank NB from other classes much more. This will also help healers, which is a big plus but I doubt it would make them OP. As for MagDD using this, doubt it would be OP as well.

Could even change Power Extraction (stamina morph), so it restores stamina for each enemy hit as well. That skill is really weak compared to Steel Tornado, this would make it a more viable choice rather than just being there for the Major Brutality buff, which is easily obtained through pots.

I would also like to see more changes to Dark Shade. They are really usefull now, since it's an AoE minor maim, but it's such an easy debuff to get access to, I am not sure if it will be enough. Adding a snare or immobilization would seal the deal imo. It will make a must for NB Tank, and would be a viable option for PvP as well.

I like the idea but on my stamblade, I wish I was able to use Sap. Would be nice they reworked it to so that both morphs did damage based on your higher stat (WD/SD), one healed, restored resources, and had a short range and the other did much higher damage (currently Power Extraction), larger range, and gave a damage buff or something.

I'm trying to think of a way both class could use both morphs (especially since PE is a garbage ability but visually looks cool!) that would be useful but not unbalanced. My biggest issue with NB is Siphoning Strikes. The biggest reason I made my forum account recently was so I could QQ about SS lol.

KingJ · May 2018

Can we make Dark cloak scale based off which crit is higher .

aeowulf · May 2018

KingJ wrote: »

Can we make Dark cloak scale based off which crit is higher .

no

aeowulf · May 2018

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I've also played with both skills, and while I see the merits of Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks when it comes to sustain, it's a garbage skill for healing.

It's not exactly awesome for sustain either depending on the role you play. It's what? A couple of heavy attacks worth of resources once every 20 seconds... The cast cost needs to swap pools, the 'on light/heavy attack' needs to be changed to on damage with cooldown or dodge (would help NB tanks get use from from it - they have no class friendly sustain), the healing can be dodged so that should be changed too. NB get what I beleive to be the only dodgable heal in the game? (and the only suicide - all classes should get this, i'm calling for balance!!) Needs to go back to restoring resources and not be a heal.

The best bits of this skill are the passives

If the class suicide is Offering that you're referring to, I believe they changed that last patch where you cannot kill yourself with the ability anymore. Lol xD

Yeah it was, such a shame!

Runefang · May 2018

Nerf magblade pve dps please.

Runefang · May 2018

Nerf magblade pve dps please.

Sun7dance · May 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Sun7dance wrote: »

I'm not on the PTS, so maybe you can answer my question:

Did ZOS remove all crit. heals in cloak completly or is it still possible to let Rally crit?

1st Rally-->Cloak-->2nd Rally-->crit. heal

Thx

Cloak crit is now only working on direct dmg.

Healing counts as negative damage (In the game's code. That's why healing was dodgable for a time) so as long as the heal is direct and coming from you it should be a crit hit.

@ZOS_RichLambert

Personally I'm fine with it not critting though

Thx, that's exactly what I tried to ask. Maybe anyone could test on PTS, if Rally Burstheal still crit after cloak?
Actually siphoning attacks should also crit.

Feanor · May 2018

Sun7dance wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Sun7dance wrote: »

I'm not on the PTS, so maybe you can answer my question:

Did ZOS remove all crit. heals in cloak completly or is it still possible to let Rally crit?

1st Rally-->Cloak-->2nd Rally-->crit. heal

Thx

Cloak crit is now only working on direct dmg.

Healing counts as negative damage (In the game's code. That's why healing was dodgable for a time) so as long as the heal is direct and coming from you it should be a crit hit.

@ZOS_RichLambert

Personally I'm fine with it not critting though

Thx, that's exactly what I tried to ask. Maybe anyone could test on PTS, if Rally Burstheal still crit after cloak?
Actually siphoning attacks should also crit.

It shouldn’t crit if you go by the tooltip. It’s not an attack.

leendertp1 · May 2018

Best/easiest way to fix siphoning attacks is to change to heal/return resources on direct damage so that it is procc'ed by sap essence and funnel health. Halve the resource return or whatever maths says is the right answer so that DD builds are neutral and Sap Tanks become much stronger again.

I tanked 6 keys on my Argonian nightblade sap tank last night. Honestly, resources were very easy and I don't even run the stam return morph of siphoning. I am Argonian, so it’s a bit OP but resources were fine. I was in 5 Tava and 5 Mending (Jewelry, SnB, Ice Staff). Sap Essence procs mending and then infused weakening and minor maim on the ice staff bar. So lots of damage reduction on enemies, not so much mitigation myself.

When I run with 3DD, my biggest issue is that I don't have a burst heal. Dark cloak addresses this to a degree (I have tested). But my primary issue with dark cloak is that it is pure health based, which is not great given the play style you want from a nightblade tank. It should scale off magicka and health, like coagulating blood because as a Sap tank you should be running a pretty high magicka pool to amplify your damage and as a result your support heals. So a pure health based self-heal is conflicting with nightblade tanks and amplifying their funnel and sap heals. Like I said in the other thread; it should heal me the same whether I have 60k Health and 0 Magicka or 30k Health and 25k Magicka.

The other thing we lack is just plain mitigation. We are much squishier than DK's and Wardens. I have one of each and you can feel the difference. This is the hardest thing and most frustrating thing about my Sap Tank. If I want to support my group I get really squishy. It is only an issue in the harder HM DLC dungeons, but irritating nonetheless. This could have been helped by making silver leash viable and not complete trash. I posted in another thread, but it’s much too slow and costs a ton of stamina while still doing damage, no one will be able to use it. You give all the tanks that don’t have a great stamina return mechanisms a chain that costs like 4k stamina. It’s not well thought through. All this while it still does damage, no tank will care about that damage. So easy fix is make it 1k stamina and remove the damage. The animation is also terrible and much too slow, but at least this won’t kill the skill as certainly as the stamina cost. As long as we can’t chain mobs we can’t wear Blood Spawn/Lord Warden/Pirate Skeleton or whatever else to help us be tankier or support the group more if there are ranged adds. Warden can wear swarm mothers and be fine ironically they are also the only non-DK tank that could maybe afford to use leash.

I think Temporal Guard on Psijic is going to be important even if they don’t make dark cloak better. The downside of this is that it gimps our ultimate generation if we cant front bar soul harvest. Front bar soul harvest is the only way we can ever be competitive with other tanks because of major force uptime.

Berenhir · May 2018

leendertp1 wrote: »

When I run with 3DD, my biggest issue is that I don't have a burst heal. Dark cloak addresses this to a degree (I have tested). But my primary issue with dark cloak is that it is pure health based, which is not great given the play style you want from a nightblade tank. It should scale off magicka and health, like coagulating blood because as a Sap tank you should be running a pretty high magicka pool to amplify your damage and as a result your support heals. So a pure health based self-heal is conflicting with nightblade tanks and amplifying their funnel and sap heals. Like I said in the other thread; it should heal me the same whether I have 60k Health and 0 Magicka or 30k Health and 25k Magicka.

Problem is in PvP I have 30k health and 40k magicka. If the heal would scale from health and magicka, it would be a completely broken burst heal for magicka NB like an on demand single target earthgore.

While saptanking is a very funny thing, giving more healing and tank tools to magicka nightblades with high group utility and damage will create problems in PvP where mNB is already the preferred choice for highly organised groups.

KingJ · May 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Can we make Dark cloak scale based off which crit is higher .

no

Why not my Nb tanks has higher weapon crit than spell crit so I can't use this ability now because what.

Strider__Roshin · May 2018

KingJ wrote: »

Can we make Dark cloak scale based off which crit is higher .

A great suggestion.

aeowulf · May 2018

It scales of health because ZoS want it to be for tanks. DPS have much higher crit than tanks so if it were to scale from crit, NB DPS would be getting larger heals than tanks.

KingJ · May 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

It scales of health because ZoS want it to be for tanks. DPS have much higher crit than tanks so if it were to scale from crit, NB DPS would be getting larger heals than tanks.

Yea so I'm pretty sure you don't understand what I'm talking about.So let me explain the crit rating is currently scaling off just spell crit not both.So my tank who has higher weapon crit won't get the heal to crit.The heal is still scaling off max health but the crit rating is only scaling from spell crit.Which needs to be fix.

@aeowulf

Stickbow · May 2018

WhipSmartMcoy wrote: »

IARTOI wrote: »

I know after this post most NB players will criticize me but this will bring to NB a balance. Shadowy Disguise skill need some change. As we all know NBs always doing this rolldodge+sneak all the times and its really hard to detect them. I mean for detection best way is using piercing mark but not everyone has that skill and mage light sometimes not helping. My offer is bring cloak fatigue so every next cast in 5 sec cost more magicka like sorcerer's streak fatigue. This would be fair enaugh. Consider it.

If you know that you'll be criticized for your opinion then its probably because you're aware that its wrong lol
Cloak fatigue will not balance a Nb. It's also dumb trying to justify it by using streak. Streak is an aoe stun that teleports your character to a new location. Cloak negates all incoming and single target damage but you still have to manually reposition your character all while avoiding the NUMEROUS ways to be pulled out of stealth.

"Cloak Fatigue" already exists - your magicka pool limits the amount of times you can cloak. It's not a particularly cheap skill.

But if you insist, then remove the stamina cost for using stealth (heck, for every class!!), since cloaking is the only practical way for magblades to do what the class was designed to do in PVE - work from the shadows. That fixes your issue not knowing that detection potions, flare, mark target, and a host of other things break sneak and cloak in PVP (probably not, but trying to throw you a bone).

Oh, and give cloak a stun like streak has.

HalfEatenCornea · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

The flat damage bonus of 20 percent more damage for 6 seconds is too strong on an ultimate (incap) that already hits hard, has a stun and has a potent debuff such as major defile with it. Would be nice if you changed the flat percent damage buff to all your damage to something like empower which would make the skill much more in line for its low cost.

Doing this hurts stamblade PVE DPS.So they won't make that change.They are better off removing the stun.They won't increase the cost or remove the damage buff.

Why should Incap retain the 20% when everyone loses the ability to empower skills? And they didn’t touch Incap at all - it remains the same absurdly overloaded skill that would have lost either the defile, the knockback or the damage if it were any other class.

It’s fine only for Nightblades apparently.

well said nerf incap