WembleyOTG wrote: »

I have no idea how people get such high dps.. I'm struggling to get 20k on a PTS template using alcast rotations and exactly the gear he says too..

I get 16k dps on sorc, and like 18k dps on mage blade

I can't see how messing up a few things is such a VAST difference in dps.. how can one or two miss fires equal 60k difference?

I'm light attack and then skill, with all ground aoe on.. not even close to these numbers, on a 750 cp guy

What CP are you? Golded weapons?

Aliyavana wrote: »

Magika shouldn't do as much dps as stamina. Magika = better survivability and range
Stamina = more risk high reward

I absolutly disagree, because range only happens with the first shot, then after that, the mobs surround your magicka user and wail on him until he falls down unconscious and bleeding.

These high magblade parses require them to be in melee range because they run Master Architect and Zaan. A fully ranged magblade build would parse lower because Master Architect isnt viable anymore.

A lot of people compare melee magicka parses to ranged magicka parses which isnt really fair. It would be better to compare melee builds to other melee builds because raids usually have limited melee spots.

And I like how people complain about the validity of a fully cheesed 3m dummy parse, like its not obvious that wont work in a raid environment...

I'm guessing you didn't actually look at the video, or read its description. It's clearly just a build that has maximum dummy cheese (as should be obvious from the 3milly dummy). If you look at sustain it's also really shoddy, and the creator himself says it's not viable, but just a test to push the ridiculous. You'd see very different numbers on a 6milly dummy or in an actual raid setting.

Nightblades are really powerful, no doubt, and they will continue to be preferred for groups because of their relatively easy sustain and high damage outputs, as well as their low-risk ranged DPS style. For as long as trials continue to favour ranged DPS this will be a trend, unless ZOS drops the nerfhammer on NBs specifically. It used to be that the high-risk style of melee DPSes achieved higher numbers than ranged DPSes, but unfortunately we won't see that anymore, unless ZOS begins to make trials like the first four again. I'm not saying you can't do melee DPS in the new trials obviously, I'm just saying it isn't worth it, because you are taking on more risk for the same kind of DPS, so it's pointless.

You could take a lot of clips of parses out of context and use them as excuses as to why something is OP. I mean there are clips of trial parses that are ridiculous and make people foam at the mouth, shouting at ZOS for nerfs, without even going into why these exact numbers are achievable.

XGCAlbatr0ss wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

These high magblade parses require them to be in melee range because they run Master Architect and Zaan. A fully ranged magblade build would parse lower because Master Architect isnt viable anymore.

A lot of people compare melee magicka parses to ranged magicka parses which isnt really fair. It would be better to compare melee builds to other melee builds because raids usually have limited melee spots.

And I like how people complain about the validity of a fully cheesed 3m dummy parse, like its not obvious that wont work in a raid environment...

How is master architect not viable anymore? Please explain.

@XGCAlbatr0ss
The reason is that it's only really viable with cheap ultimates. Since the only cheap ultimate available to the nightblade is Soul Harvest (which is a melee attack) that means you would rarely benefit from running it in the newer trials where all fights have you moving a lot and discourage you from being in melee range.
If you compare the uptime of the Major Slayer on 200 ulti cost ultimate rotations to different sets, like Julianos or something that gives spell damage, the damage difference will be vastly different. To say Master Architect isn't viable at all isn't true, since it works for older content (like Maw for example), but if you look at current trials, which is what people base viability on, it definitely does not match up to many other sets.

Tannus15 wrote: »

WembleyOTG wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

WembleyOTG wrote: »

I have no idea how people get such high dps.. I'm struggling to get 20k on a PTS template using alcast rotations and exactly the gear he says too..

I get 16k dps on sorc, and like 18k dps on mage blade

I can't see how messing up a few things is such a VAST difference in dps.. how can one or two miss fires equal 60k difference?

I'm light attack and then skill, with all ground aoe on.. not even close to these numbers, on a 750 cp guy

What CP are you? Golded weapons?

I used the template so cp 750. I used all Golden weapons and glyphs. Only thing I didn't have was a potion and mundus stone.. I'm sure I'm not 100% on rotation but can't believe how different it is..
On live I'm cp 250 or so and have golden armor on one toons, my mage blade. He gets 15k or so on live.

Just I keep hearing you need 20k for trials and I just can't hit it even using max gear. Something is off. I'm sure it's me but such a vast difference is strange on max cp max gear

I haven't linked this in a while so here

mapplinators guide to gitting gud at dps

Hope it helps

Awesome. Thank you so much. I have to practice.

I'm still really new to rotations and target dummy. The guide gave me some insights.

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Magika shouldn't do as much dps as stamina. Magika = better survivability and range
Stamina = more risk high reward

I absolutly disagree, because range only happens with the first shot, then after that, the mobs surround your magicka user and wail on him until he falls down unconscious and bleeding.

Yeah people claming this is hilarious..this isn’t world of warcraft. Gap closers have no cooldown in this game. Range is a myth.

XGCAlbatr0ss wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

XGCAlbatr0ss wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

These high magblade parses require them to be in melee range because they run Master Architect and Zaan. A fully ranged magblade build would parse lower because Master Architect isnt viable anymore.

A lot of people compare melee magicka parses to ranged magicka parses which isnt really fair. It would be better to compare melee builds to other melee builds because raids usually have limited melee spots.

And I like how people complain about the validity of a fully cheesed 3m dummy parse, like its not obvious that wont work in a raid environment...

How is master architect not viable anymore? Please explain.

@XGCAlbatr0ss
The reason is that it's only really viable with cheap ultimates. Since the only cheap ultimate available to the nightblade is Soul Harvest (which is a melee attack) that means you would rarely benefit from running it in the newer trials where all fights have you moving a lot and discourage you from being in melee range.
If you compare the uptime of the Major Slayer on 200 ulti cost ultimate rotations to different sets, like Julianos or something that gives spell damage, the damage difference will be vastly different. To say Master Architect isn't viable at all isn't true, since it works for older content (like Maw for example), but if you look at current trials, which is what people base viability on, it definitely does not match up to many other sets.

I guess i hear what your saying, but i main a mag nb and i run it in vAS +2 and vhof and basically just cast my ult on anything i can just to provide the group buff. Like protectors in vAS and even the spheres of first boss vHoF. Its still viable, but i hear what your saying as well.

Yeah, I mean it's still good as a group buff, but if you are looking for the best set for yourself it's a different matter, which is what I believe Septimus was referring to.

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Magika shouldn't do as much dps as stamina. Magika = better survivability and range

Stamina = more risk high reward

Stamina is zero risk since forever.

@Sugaroverdose

Completely false.

Stamina only became end-game viable shortly after Morrowind was released. Prior to that cloak only reduced 20% of AoE damage, and all the craglorn trials + vMoL, were designed to strongly favor builds with shields and range. Ev

With Morrowind, several things changed to justify the risk of bringing in stamina builds. Mag DPS went down enough that it became more worthwhile to bring stamina builds into end-game PvE from a numbers perspective. Blade cloak received a significant damage mitigation buff, going up to 25%. Halls of Fabrication was explicitly designed to disadvantage magicka builds with lightning that saps only magicka.

Because of those changes, we went from groups of 8 magsorcs to 4 mag and 4 stam.

You clearly didn't play stam then, so you must not remember what life after One Tamriel was like for us. I did, and I will never forget it.

PvE isn't about risk, risk word is only about PvP

Again, completely false. PvE is absolutely about risk.

Putting stam in melee range increases the risk that one or more of them will die to The Warriors carve, the Possessed Mantikora's popcorn AoE, The Mage's Chain Lightning, S'Kinrai's cleave, and Rakkhat's meteors, among many other situations. When people die, scores go down, morale drops, and there is an increased risk that the group will not achieve its goal.

HuawaSepp wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Magika shouldn't do as much dps as stamina. Magika = better survivability and range
Stamina = more risk high reward

I absolutly disagree, because range only happens with the first shot, then after that, the mobs surround your magicka user and wail on him until he falls down unconscious and bleeding.

Traditionally ranged has tools to kite like teleports/speed/cc immunity and has it's own cc. Good ranged should be able to keep it's distance vs melee, good melee should be able to close the distance between themselves and ranged, etc. It should be a toss-up when players are equally skilled, with a lot of gap closers and gap openers used on either side.

If you really think ranged only happens with the first few abilities, then (and I don't like saying this) you probably need to l2p ranged a bit better.

There has to be proper reward for being in melee in both pvp and pvp considering the risk. Melee gets mechanics, melee gets targeted first by enemy players as they're the most visible, etc. For that reason they usually have higher dps, higher single target dps, or a much greater potential for burst dps while they get in, get some dps in/snag a kill or two, and get out.

I have a looooot of experience pvping in MMOs playing both ranged and melee and when a good balance is struck between the two, things get a lot more interesting and a lot more fun. What I don't want to see is dps/mitigation basically being equal and no real incentive for ranged to kite, facetanking like melee instead because there's no reason not to.

More on topic, the discussion in this thread is pretty disappointing. The focus should be on the 55k 6m dummy parse, not a 3m cheese parse. Obviously things have changed with today's patch, but I'd still like to see some parses from today.

Well on the patched pts my selfbuffed results were:


And on the 6M dummy with a 'sustain forever setup'


You can clearly see if you do a selfbuffed parse on a dummy with ∞ life you won't even hit the 60k.
For harder trials just switch ele drain with shield and for craglorn trials switch ele drain with destructive touch.

Really wish I could translate your parse results. Trying to raise my DPS to yours and unsure where I am missing at this point.

ecru wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Magika shouldn't do as much dps as stamina. Magika = better survivability and range
Stamina = more risk high reward

I absolutly disagree, because range only happens with the first shot, then after that, the mobs surround your magicka user and wail on him until he falls down unconscious and bleeding.

Traditionally ranged has tools to kite like teleports/speed/cc immunity and has it's own cc. Good ranged should be able to keep it's distance vs melee, good melee should be able to close the distance between themselves and ranged, etc. It should be a toss-up when players are equally skilled, with a lot of gap closers and gap openers used on either side.

If you really think ranged only happens with the first few abilities, then (and I don't like saying this) you probably need to l2p ranged a bit better.

There has to be proper reward for being in melee in both pvp and pvp considering the risk. Melee gets mechanics, melee gets targeted first by enemy players as they're the most visible, etc. For that reason they usually have higher dps, higher single target dps, or a much greater potential for burst dps while they get in, get some dps in/snag a kill or two, and get out.

I have a looooot of experience pvping in MMOs playing both ranged and melee and when a good balance is struck between the two, things get a lot more interesting and a lot more fun. What I don't want to see is dps/mitigation basically being equal and no real incentive for ranged to kite, facetanking like melee instead because there's no reason not to.

More on topic, the discussion in this thread is pretty disappointing. The focus should be on the 55k 6m dummy parse, not a 3m cheese parse. Obviously things have changed with today's patch, but I'd still like to see some parses from today.

This game does not have so called "range". Especially in PvP. It is really difficult or next to impossible to keep someone at a range when they have gapclosers or speed to close in on you faster than you can back away. Of course the only exception to this would be NBs. And more often than not, recent PvE contents also do punish range more than melee and for healing reasons, people still tend to stick close to each other anyways. Melee is not in anymore risk than range. Applying this "melee is more at risk than ranged" logic, light armor templars and DKs should have the highest dps of all because light armor = paper thin = even more risk than medium armor.

ecru wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Magika shouldn't do as much dps as stamina. Magika = better survivability and range
Stamina = more risk high reward

I absolutly disagree, because range only happens with the first shot, then after that, the mobs surround your magicka user and wail on him until he falls down unconscious and bleeding.

Traditionally ranged has tools to kite like teleports/speed/cc immunity and has it's own cc. Good ranged should be able to keep it's distance vs melee, good melee should be able to close the distance between themselves and ranged, etc. It should be a toss-up when players are equally skilled, with a lot of gap closers and gap openers used on either side.

If you really think ranged only happens with the first few abilities, then (and I don't like saying this) you probably need to l2p ranged a bit better.

There has to be proper reward for being in melee in both pvp and pvp considering the risk. Melee gets mechanics, melee gets targeted first by enemy players as they're the most visible, etc. For that reason they usually have higher dps, higher single target dps, or a much greater potential for burst dps while they get in, get some dps in/snag a kill or two, and get out.

I have a looooot of experience pvping in MMOs playing both ranged and melee and when a good balance is struck between the two, things get a lot more interesting and a lot more fun. What I don't want to see is dps/mitigation basically being equal and no real incentive for ranged to kite, facetanking like melee instead because there's no reason not to.

More on topic, the discussion in this thread is pretty disappointing. The focus should be on the 55k 6m dummy parse, not a 3m cheese parse. Obviously things have changed with today's patch, but I'd still like to see some parses from today.

This game does not have so called "range". Especially in PvP. It is really difficult or next to impossible to keep someone at a range when they have gapclosers or speed to close in on you faster than you can back away. Of course the only exception to this would be NBs. And more often than not, recent PvE contents also do punish range more than melee and for healing reasons, people still tend to stick close to each other anyways. Melee is not in anymore risk than range. Applying this "melee is more at risk than ranged" logic, light armor templars and DKs should have the highest dps of all because light armor = paper thin = even more risk than medium armor.

haha what? you can try to spin it however you want but that won't change the fact that there are in fact ranged and melee builds, abilities, skill lines, etc in eso. this game, like every other game in existence, should be balanced around that.

calling it something else doesn't make it something else. i get that you want to justify being able to do equal dps at 28m as melee does at 5m but nah, that's not how it should work. eso isn't the exception to the rule and you aren't special.

You’re wrong stamina nowadays have the speed the tankiness the healing and huge dps and gap closers with no cooldown. If a stamina player wants to be in your face all day and keep you on the defensive trust me he will. Some magicka classes are good others not so much being ranged in pvp. Those melee magika build aka templar should do as much damage as stamina but they are not. Let’s not forget dps magwarden with no cc against a good stamblade or warden he’s pretty much dead. Since gapclosers have no cooldown in this game some class should be able to stand their ground better to scare stamina players away a bit to breath. If your idea of range is to snipe people from top of keeps then sure that is range but in open field range doesn’t mean anything in this game unlike world of warcraft.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Magika shouldn't do as much dps as stamina. Magika = better survivability and range
Stamina = more risk high reward

I absolutly disagree, because range only happens with the first shot, then after that, the mobs surround your magicka user and wail on him until he falls down unconscious and bleeding.

Traditionally ranged has tools to kite like teleports/speed/cc immunity and has it's own cc. Good ranged should be able to keep it's distance vs melee, good melee should be able to close the distance between themselves and ranged, etc. It should be a toss-up when players are equally skilled, with a lot of gap closers and gap openers used on either side.

If you really think ranged only happens with the first few abilities, then (and I don't like saying this) you probably need to l2p ranged a bit better.

There has to be proper reward for being in melee in both pvp and pvp considering the risk. Melee gets mechanics, melee gets targeted first by enemy players as they're the most visible, etc. For that reason they usually have higher dps, higher single target dps, or a much greater potential for burst dps while they get in, get some dps in/snag a kill or two, and get out.

I have a looooot of experience pvping in MMOs playing both ranged and melee and when a good balance is struck between the two, things get a lot more interesting and a lot more fun. What I don't want to see is dps/mitigation basically being equal and no real incentive for ranged to kite, facetanking like melee instead because there's no reason not to.

More on topic, the discussion in this thread is pretty disappointing. The focus should be on the 55k 6m dummy parse, not a 3m cheese parse. Obviously things have changed with today's patch, but I'd still like to see some parses from today.

This game does not have so called "range". Especially in PvP. It is really difficult or next to impossible to keep someone at a range when they have gapclosers or speed to close in on you faster than you can back away. Of course the only exception to this would be NBs. And more often than not, recent PvE contents also do punish range more than melee and for healing reasons, people still tend to stick close to each other anyways. Melee is not in anymore risk than range. Applying this "melee is more at risk than ranged" logic, light armor templars and DKs should have the highest dps of all because light armor = paper thin = even more risk than medium armor.

Please go clear HM Fang Lair and Scalecaller as well as no death and tell me what setup was easier. Ranged or melee DPS.

Here is a hint. There is indeed risk to reward here.

reprosal wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Magika shouldn't do as much dps as stamina. Magika = better survivability and range
Stamina = more risk high reward

I absolutly disagree, because range only happens with the first shot, then after that, the mobs surround your magicka user and wail on him until he falls down unconscious and bleeding.

Traditionally ranged has tools to kite like teleports/speed/cc immunity and has it's own cc. Good ranged should be able to keep it's distance vs melee, good melee should be able to close the distance between themselves and ranged, etc. It should be a toss-up when players are equally skilled, with a lot of gap closers and gap openers used on either side.

If you really think ranged only happens with the first few abilities, then (and I don't like saying this) you probably need to l2p ranged a bit better.

There has to be proper reward for being in melee in both pvp and pvp considering the risk. Melee gets mechanics, melee gets targeted first by enemy players as they're the most visible, etc. For that reason they usually have higher dps, higher single target dps, or a much greater potential for burst dps while they get in, get some dps in/snag a kill or two, and get out.

I have a looooot of experience pvping in MMOs playing both ranged and melee and when a good balance is struck between the two, things get a lot more interesting and a lot more fun. What I don't want to see is dps/mitigation basically being equal and no real incentive for ranged to kite, facetanking like melee instead because there's no reason not to.

More on topic, the discussion in this thread is pretty disappointing. The focus should be on the 55k 6m dummy parse, not a 3m cheese parse. Obviously things have changed with today's patch, but I'd still like to see some parses from today.

This game does not have so called "range". Especially in PvP. It is really difficult or next to impossible to keep someone at a range when they have gapclosers or speed to close in on you faster than you can back away. Of course the only exception to this would be NBs. And more often than not, recent PvE contents also do punish range more than melee and for healing reasons, people still tend to stick close to each other anyways. Melee is not in anymore risk than range. Applying this "melee is more at risk than ranged" logic, light armor templars and DKs should have the highest dps of all because light armor = paper thin = even more risk than medium armor.

Please go clear HM Fang Lair and Scalecaller as well as no death and tell me what setup was easier. Ranged or melee DPS.

Here is a hint. There is indeed risk to reward here.

Not really. Everyone dies the same regardless. There might be a tiny slight difference, but try completing said 'trials' (because the game seem to categorize those as trials) with only ranged then. Without those awesome stam melee DPS and see how much longer it took. Some impatient people probably would want to quit because it is slower. Also, last I remember Scalecaller Peak actually do punish ranged as much as it punishes melee. And so does Fang Lair. Melee is no longer more risky than range ever since DLC dungeons started to incorporate mechanics that punishes so called "ez range pewpew" modes. And not all ranged DPS stay far also. They just cannot. Heck, even base Craglorn trials do not allow ranged to stay far off.

ecru wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Magika shouldn't do as much dps as stamina. Magika = better survivability and range
Stamina = more risk high reward

I absolutly disagree, because range only happens with the first shot, then after that, the mobs surround your magicka user and wail on him until he falls down unconscious and bleeding.

Traditionally ranged has tools to kite like teleports/speed/cc immunity and has it's own cc. Good ranged should be able to keep it's distance vs melee, good melee should be able to close the distance between themselves and ranged, etc. It should be a toss-up when players are equally skilled, with a lot of gap closers and gap openers used on either side.

If you really think ranged only happens with the first few abilities, then (and I don't like saying this) you probably need to l2p ranged a bit better.

There has to be proper reward for being in melee in both pvp and pvp considering the risk. Melee gets mechanics, melee gets targeted first by enemy players as they're the most visible, etc. For that reason they usually have higher dps, higher single target dps, or a much greater potential for burst dps while they get in, get some dps in/snag a kill or two, and get out.

I have a looooot of experience pvping in MMOs playing both ranged and melee and when a good balance is struck between the two, things get a lot more interesting and a lot more fun. What I don't want to see is dps/mitigation basically being equal and no real incentive for ranged to kite, facetanking like melee instead because there's no reason not to.

More on topic, the discussion in this thread is pretty disappointing. The focus should be on the 55k 6m dummy parse, not a 3m cheese parse. Obviously things have changed with today's patch, but I'd still like to see some parses from today.

This game does not have so called "range". Especially in PvP. It is really difficult or next to impossible to keep someone at a range when they have gapclosers or speed to close in on you faster than you can back away. Of course the only exception to this would be NBs. And more often than not, recent PvE contents also do punish range more than melee and for healing reasons, people still tend to stick close to each other anyways. Melee is not in anymore risk than range. Applying this "melee is more at risk than ranged" logic, light armor templars and DKs should have the highest dps of all because light armor = paper thin = even more risk than medium armor.

haha what? you can try to spin it however you want but that won't change the fact that there are in fact ranged and melee builds, abilities, skill lines, etc in eso. this game, like every other game in existence, should be balanced around that.

calling it something else doesn't make it something else. i get that you want to justify being able to do equal dps at 28m as melee does at 5m but nah, that's not how it should work. eso isn't the exception to the rule and you aren't special.

I did not dispute the existence of ranged builds. What I did say was you simply do not have classic ranged combat possibilities at all outside of NBs because their cloak make things miss. There's no such thing as ranged in this game. Gapclosers are often cheaper than mobility tools (streak comes to mind, which is more expensive than gapclosers) and guess what? These gapclosers tend to also apply snares and/or this weird pause before getting hit. With gapclosers, melee builds do not really have a disadvantage because they can stay in your face the whole time if they wish with their generally higher damage output. Hence, lack of ranged combat. Builds might exist but as I said before, it almost always ends up being melee range combat except for few cases like range vs range, NB vs melee builds. Melee builds are not any more risky than a ranged build both in pve and pvp.