5 Skills + Ultimate is not enough

SuperScrubby · April 2014

I find it a bit interesting that when someone says they want just 1 or 2 more skills people blow it out of proportion. They bring up games where you had over 15 skills. 1 or 2 = / = 5-10 more. I personally wish we had 1 more ultimate on top of 1 or 2 more skill slots because ultimately hitting 6 or 7 on the keyboard isn't as big of an issue as hitting 0,-,= like you would in other games.

Not to mention like other people have brought up, this game is about resource management, so adding skills wouldn't really break the game in that sense, the only thing I could see that would need some minor tweaks would be the passives that rely on the number of skills you have on your hotbar. But even those aren't that common as most of the passives actually require you to use the skill.

Personally I kind of feel like its a cop out that the dev's only gave 5+1 and said that it creates more decision making. I only partially agree since part of the difficulty in a game that has pvp is choosing which skill to use over another given the situation, when you only have 5 skills you either have to choose between the glass cannon or so tanky that you do no damage yourself and lack makes it somewhat frustrating having to chance your skills when the dynamics of a battle are so fluid. Yes I know you get a 2nd weapon and there's the mod that allows you to change your layout but I'd rather not have to do that to stay competitive.

hamletsbatb14_ESO · April 2014

jazzinspace wrote: »

I would just like to put a post in the forums here to express my opinion that even with 2 weapon sets 5 skills + ultimate is not enough for certain classes, healers for example need the diversity of healing and damage/crowd control.

If you are a healer...why would you want to focus on damage/crowd control?

I find the having to choose your skills to make the game more tactical and allows for great diversity among characters of the same "class".

Extremeties · April 2014

Psychic_Kitty wrote: »

I hate the skill limitation

Characters are mostly functional idiots right now....

What's going to happen is people are going to get tired of only having 5 skills and leave the game.....yep they can get more...but can only use 5....which begs the question why have other skills then?

If you don't want players to use them why have them?

You cant answer that with saying we want players to use them...because you don't...or else you would let players use them all the time.

In essence this is the first elder scrolls game where your character is kind of moronic....as they can get skills but cant use them all the time.

Hopefully this will change....
And personally I hope their stealth will eventually last longer then 2 seconds....because my assassin is basically a pathetic warrior right now...which is kind of frustrating....in no way shape or form am I assassinating anything or feeling like a rogue...what I feel like is a sub par warrior....with attacks that do less damage.

Why do players have more skills? Because it allows for that player to create a character that can fulfill many different roles/builds with the variations of skills. Your not locked into just 1 character how you are in other games. That is why we are limited. You have to make choices as to what to use and make the best of it. You want to deal dmg in a different way? Pick up a different weapon. You dont have that freedom in other games as you do here.

I disagree with you when you say people will leave simply because you cant use as many skills. Games that had 40 hotsbars with 400000 abilities is a bit far fetched and a joke. Half the time or MOST of the time you have absolutely no idea what half of them even do.

Reignskream · April 2014

I think 5 is plenty, as it leaves us with a variety, and i can see how that would scare people away. It's actually going to be a challenge fighting all these different classes with this different variety. "runs away"

Hokutensamuraib14_ESO · April 2014

they did that so consoles could compete, i find weapon swaping annoying but its basically the same as 10 slots + 2 ultimates and im fine with that overall

Zargorius · April 2014

Psychic_Kitty wrote: »

I hate the skill limitation

Characters are mostly functional idiots right now....

What's going to happen is people are going to get tired of only having 5 skills and leave the game.....yep they can get more...but can only use 5....which begs the question why have other skills then?

If you don't want players to use them why have them?

You cant answer that with saying we want players to use them...because you don't...or else you would let players use them all the time.

In essence this is the first elder scrolls game where your character is kind of moronic....as they can get skills but cant use them all the time.

Hopefully this will change....
And personally I hope their stealth will eventually last longer then 2 seconds....because my assassin is basically a pathetic warrior right now...which is kind of frustrating....in no way shape or form am I assassinating anything or feeling like a rogue...what I feel like is a sub par warrior....with attacks that do less damage.

Stealth is CTRL dude, anyone can do it. The NB skill is just a "Oh Crap, something went wrong" ability

DragonMother · April 2014

I actually like it. Not only does it present some creative problem solving for the players to figure out their best skill sets against the pve encounters, it also presents a challenge for pvp encounters too for the same reason. It's not a hinderance to me, then again I've played Diablo 1, 2, 3, Warcraft from it's origin game to date, and a few other games that have multiple skills and skill bars, and I keep finding myself falling back to D3 and ESO for it's skill set limits. I like it, I want more of it, maybe a button or two extra for pots, and useable items like the minipets, but that can be changed with addon's. Gimme a good stable five buttons to start, and that sixth for my stun skill and I'm one happy camper.

Dethsaibot · April 2014

Psychic_Kitty wrote: »

I hate the skill limitation

Characters are mostly functional idiots right now....

What's going to happen is people are going to get tired of only having 5 skills and leave the game.....yep they can get more...but can only use 5....which begs the question why have other skills then?

If you don't want players to use them why have them?

You cant answer that with saying we want players to use them...because you don't...or else you would let players use them all the time.

In essence this is the first elder scrolls game where your character is kind of moronic....as they can get skills but cant use them all the time.

Hopefully this will change....
And personally I hope their stealth will eventually last longer then 2 seconds....because my assassin is basically a pathetic warrior right now...which is kind of frustrating....in no way shape or form am I assassinating anything or feeling like a rogue...what I feel like is a sub par warrior....with attacks that do less damage.

i'm going to have to go ahead and respectfully disagree with everything you just said. by limiting the number of abilities you have on a bar you are actually adding a higher skill requirement to succeed in this game. if you want further proof just looking at some examples in other games of "one-button-macros" turning a class into a total faceroll with all the abilities at their disposal (looking at you, WotLK beastmaster hunters).
not only do your skill point allocations and hotbar selections force you to actually plan your character out (and with all the possibilities available, choosing one you like and can be effective with can be a "skill check"), you now need to manage your magika/stamina pools along with what is actually going on in combat and your position in a fight. i am personally a huge fan of the current 5+1 set up and feel it has actually raised the skill-cap.

addressing your issues with your "pathetic warrior" i'd simply say...you're doing it wrong. NB (as all the classes here) can be played in a multitude of ways. if you want to go the assassin/sneak route, as i am also personally doing (drain tank was fun, too though lol) then all the usual rules apply: sneak/hide (CTRL) and approach from the rear. giggity. as someone has stated already, Shadow Cloak is meant to be used as an escape or a second stealth opener. sneak from behind+Surprise Attack/Ambush (Veiled Blade morphs)+light attack/weapon attack+Killer's Blade kills nearly everything. harder mobs/groups can be done the same way using Shadow Cloak to open on the next target. it all comes down to how you choose to build and play your NB. that's how i'm taking mine (for now) and it works brilliantly and actually feels more "rogue/assassin" than comparable classes in other games that pigeon-holed the class into that role, imo. should you choose to skill it, Agony can also be used on an additional target while you burn another, but now i'm getting more into class builds and off the main topic here

demonlkojipub19_ESO · April 2014

Hmm I think they are trying to make it so that you cant just do everything. You have access to a lot of skills that can be used in different player roles that if allowed to all be used normally then you would probably be a god. Maybe 5 is too little, but it cant be like other MMO's where you can have your entire skillset on 30 hotbar buttons. I personally think 6 would be a better number but really no higher than that.

There is also Weapon swapping, so in reality you have 10 abilities you have access to in the heat of battle. It would be good if we could have the same weapon from your 1st set as part of your second set tho so we could simply change skills if we just wanna use the same weapon type for the duration.

Also.... I'm pretty sure given that this is a TES game, and all other TES games let you use all your skills in some way shape or form, People are use to being able to having access to all their powers at the touch of a button. But, this is an MMO. You cant pause the combat to find a skill in in your favorite list, or open your menu to do the same. The point of an MMO is to accomplish things with other people. This is going to be the major difference if you are use to playing Skyrim or whatnot for hours a day, and something you need to get use too. I played skyrim too, I got over it before day -5.

cliveklgb14_ESO · April 2014

Having no problem any spec with what there is, even healing. You can't have every ability for every occasion, and sometimes have to try to know what you are going to be doing and change your setup accordingly or between fights.

I think the fewer skills make it far easier to balance classes and and encounters for us to face.

Kind of late to be asking for this much of a major design change anyway, it isn't just adding more action buttons for us to put skills on. It would require completely redesigning encounters, class balance, everything.

For example, PvP, a class that can heal well, buff, damage, and CC all at the same time without rearranging skills would be ridiculous.

Again really too late for this given how much it would affect.

cliveklgb14_ESO · April 2014

Psychic_Kitty wrote: »

What's going to happen is people are going to get tired of only having 5 skills and leave the game

Except we have a game that did that highly successfully for years without losing players. GW1, and GW2. Arena.net has had no problem keeping players with limited skills in both of their games, and they have had a lot of players in both.

Dark Age of Camelot had a limited number of skills and did fine.

So the idea that everyone will get bored and leave is pure hyperbole given that example there.

Will some leave? Certainly. But there will be plenty of players left that stay, and new players coming in that I don't think the designers have anything to worry about.

TheGodless1 · April 2014

I like having to be skillful and use some critical thinking with less skills. SWTOR and Aion were good for what they offered in skills but i had so much crap on my screen from all the skills it took away the immersive experience I get from ESO. I like the way it is and hope Zenimax doesn't cave in to these types of things in a desperate need to keep players happy...maybe it's time the spolied gamers who get everything watered down should have to work a little and use more skill than comes on a bar to survive?

Inpen · April 2014

Everything can be summed up by this statement:

The new trend in MMO's is more fast paced/mobile combat, versus what a lot of MMO veteran would be use to (Example: EQ, WoW, etc.).

The old way was a lot of standing there cast pretty colors at another dude standing there casting pretty colors back at you. If you were facing a melee who have always had the option of mobility, then you CC them every few seconds, move to a new spot, and continue casting pretty colors. Great and all, but rather boring combat. Not to mention you essentially were only using about 10 abilities regularly. You may have had 50 or more abilities on your action bar, but let's be honest, you rarely used any of them.

So, what was the answer to the making the old ways better? First, everyone gets to enjoy mobile combat (not just the melee) and do away with all the clutter. What's the point of having 50 abilities, if you actually only use about 10? Why leave combat as a boring stand off when you can have constant motion? Thus, the new trend was born.

Now, to be more specific to ESO, they're wanting to add some tactical diversity into the mixture. Instead of giving each class a specific set of 5 + 1 abilities to use, leaving the combat to be very repetitive and being able to see what's coming, they're giving everyone the option to do just about everything. However, to keep things within the confines of the new system, you can't do everything all at once. You have to pick and match, and come up with an almost infinite amount of different options to completely customize your combat style.

It's not about having lots of abilities that you can't use, so much has having different setups for different situations. You have tons of skill points in this game, way more than you need for just one setup of 10 abilities. This is so you can have basically multiple specializations at once. Then you pick what specific abilities you will need for each situation. Requiring you to think before you go charging into the unknown.

I do agree that being able to save some templates of skills sets would be useful for quickly switching between what you want to use. As someone already pointed out, there is a addon for that already. Maybe even down the road, this might become an integrated part of the game. However, I see no need for any extra abilities. I find the 5 + 1 to be a great setup, just enough and not too much.

Shaun98ca2 · April 2014

5+1 abilities is just the right amount of abilities. It works well for the left hand WASD + 1-5 & QERX. There is a LOT to do during the course of combat.

EACH ability slot should be looked at as a different "situation". 1 DPS ability is spamable so why do you need 5 YOU DONT.
So you get 1 two second cast ability for an opener 1 DPS that spamable you have 2 situation abilities right there for the majority of combat leaving 3 more situations.
So then you can have 1 CC or Self Heal or Group Heal or AOE.

With 90% of the abilities spamable you really only need 5+1 slots for your role without ever having to switch to the second hot bar.
I
f you think this gets boring CHANGE YOUR BUILD be surprised what that can do for you.

Shaun98ca2 · April 2014

hamletsbatb14_ESO wrote: »

jazzinspace wrote: »

I would just like to put a post in the forums here to express my opinion that even with 2 weapon sets 5 skills + ultimate is not enough for certain classes, healers for example need the diversity of healing and damage/crowd control.

If you are a healer...why would you want to focus on damage/crowd control?

I find the having to choose your skills to make the game more tactical and allows for great diversity among characters of the same "class".

Well in TESO as a healer you have to do more than heal. You will be pulled into combat and your going to need the CC to stay alive and continue healing your group.

hamletsbatb14_ESO · April 2014

[/quote]Well in TESO as a healer you have to do more than heal. You will be pulled into combat and your going to need the CC to stay alive and continue healing your group.[/quote]

I understand that, but shouldn't your group have a dedicated CC then? And a tank to help get the mobs attention? And someone knocking the ever living stuffing out of them while you do your best to heal?

If you only want to heal that is. Or if your group is large enough for everyone to have a defined role.

But if you want to do a little bit of everything then I feel you need to pick and choose just what it is you feel is most important given the circumstances. You should live or die (virtually speaking) by those choices and not have the luxury of 50+ skills to fall back on.

Do you really want to root that mob as you kite it? Or do you want to have an extra heal just in case? Maybe that Invisibility spell? But you might need an AOE attack...

That's the beauty of only 5 skills, especially when you are only as squishy as your stat points and armor allow. You can be a Combat Medic or a Field Surgeon, which do you want to be? And isn't NOT knowing how to survive given a "bad skill layout" and still doing so much more interesting and dramatic than having all the skills you could possibly want and just trying to remember what key you bound them to?

Shaun98ca2 · April 2014

hamletsbatb14_ESO wrote: »

Well in TESO as a healer you have to do more than heal. You will be pulled into combat and your going to need the CC to stay alive and continue healing your group.[/quote]

I understand that, but shouldn't your group have a dedicated CC then? And a tank to help get the mobs attention? And someone knocking the ever living stuffing out of them while you do your best to heal?

If you only want to heal that is. Or if your group is large enough for everyone to have a defined role.

But if you want to do a little bit of everything then I feel you need to pick and choose just what it is you feel is most important given the circumstances. You should live or die (virtually speaking) by those choices and not have the luxury of 50+ skills to fall back on.

Do you really want to root that mob as you kite it? Or do you want to have an extra heal just in case? Maybe that Invisibility spell? But you might need an AOE attack...

That's the beauty of only 5 skills, especially when you are only as squishy as your stat points and armor allow. You can be a Combat Medic or a Field Surgeon, which do you want to be? And isn't NOT knowing how to survive given a "bad skill layout" and still doing so much more interesting and dramatic than having all the skills you could possibly want and just trying to remember what key you bound them to?
[/quote]

Combat in TESO doesn't work like regular MMO's the Tank doesn't grab agro of all mobs while the DPS do their job while the heal sits back and "heal bots". NO the mobs are going to scatter and do whatever they can to take your group out. SURE the DPS is SUPPOSED to keep mobs off you but they ALSO have to worry about themselves as well. So WHY NOT come to combat prepared 3 spamable heals is WAY more than enough to keep a group up. Plus a dead healer is WORTHLESS to the group. As for "running out of Magicka" that's why you carry a Restro Staff the Heavy Attack gives back 10% Magicka on final hit of Heavy Attack.

Dullemarc · April 2014

This game is not wow2, you have tons of options besides using your spellbar. Theres dogde, interupt, kite, blocking ect. so the game seems just fine. But thats just me

Hawkdriver82 · April 2014

I like the current setup. You can switch out skills on the fly between the two sets after 15. This gives you plenty of flexibility between pulls.

Contrabardus · April 2014

I'd like a few more skills myself, and perhaps another alt set unlocked at say lvl 30+.

Not a huge number, but eight would be just right and seven would be fine. It would encourage the slotting of buffs. Ultimates and consumables are fine, but even just two more skills.

In fact, I'm all for adding two or three more slots and limiting them to buffs/heals/no damage actions [invisibility for example] like the ultimate and item slots that can't be slotted with other skills.

That would keep game balance unaffected and encourage the slotting of more abilities that benefit groups rather than just individual players.

I want more slots, but I want them for buffs and support abilities and not just more attacks to spam. It's a nice middle ground compromise between those who say there are enough because of game balance and those who want more because they feel limited.

Brynnza · April 2014

More abilities means less like TES and more like a generic MMO. Personally I would have preferred a Q-Quickslot style equip for your 2 hands and no hotkey skills.

The majority of players want and enjoy this game for its distance from the "1000 hotkeys" MMO's, the last thing we want is to change it to be as such.

Besides, you have dual load outs, 10 Skills and 2 Ultimates, make use of them.

Mephiston87 · April 2014

its to make it easier to maintain balance, allowing next to all skills to be useful. Its such a good system there are so many skills you want to use, if more are allowed balance would become alot more difficult. The games been designed to not allow anyone to become the "ultimate spec". I would like 6 but i think its reasonable to get 5 +1 ultimate for the sake of balance.

Mephiston87 · April 2014

satanama76yzpreub18_ESO wrote: »

2 heavy attacks for 2 weapons
2 light attacks for 2 weapons
5 abilities + ultimate per weapon.
Dodge
Block
CC Breaker
Interrupt
=
20 abilities.

Seems plenty and the possibilities are so voluminous that you really do have the potential for a deeply designed and personal character.

thats a good way to look at it

Aeon234 · April 2014

I'm on the side of having more abilities on the bar. If that's not going to be an option then perhaps they can make it easier to slot in/out abilities. I remember in GW2 it was much easier to change them on the fly. Personally I like the variation in having multiple abilities, switching is bothersome and having the same 5 grows old real fast.

Mephiston87 · April 2014

Aeon234 wrote: »

I'm on the side of having more abilities on the bar. If that's not going to be an option then perhaps they can make it easier to slot in/out abilities. I remember in GW2 it was much easier to change them on the fly. Personally I like the variation in having multiple abilities, switching is bothersome and having the same 5 grows old real fast.

ES games aren't about the combat, they'r about the story, exploration and gearing up for greater challenges. As you can tell theyr still using the same skyrim/oblivion combat system, with a nice dodge/block/power attack twist allowing you to smartly take advantage of your opponents. D3 you have less then 20 and you cant swap weapons for a new bar, or customise your character or play as you like. thats just an example of a similar game(only one i could think of that suited)

Shaun98ca2 · April 2014

I feel like if people think the 5+1 abilities ARENT enough they are looking at the combat system WRONG. 1 damage ability in this game =10 from WOW. If you slotted more than 3 "damage" abilities on your bar........

Well imagine swinging a sword up and down SLOT 1
Swinging a sword left and right SLOT 2
Its does the same thing just looks a little different an have a SLIGHTLY different functionality but in the long run if you can swing left and right you DONT NEED up and down.

For a PURE DPS BUILD you have
1. 2 sec cast dps
2. Instant dps
3. DOT or what ever
Any more than that is simply over kill as your instant dps is spamable.
OPEN your builds up to allow more functionality even as a DPS and you will find your character actually preforms BETTER.

toxic66886 · April 2014

Keep in mind.. the game is like.. 4 days old. Future content and work, and im sure improvement will be made.. 8 skills would be nice. for now im ok with 5+1.. but im also only lvl 15. I do not miss the days of bartender/dominos in wowcrack and having like 30+ icons on my screen.

UrielX · April 2014

Extremeties wrote: »

Why do players have more skills? Because it allows for that player to create a character that can fulfill many different roles/builds with the variations of skills. Your not locked into just 1 character how you are in other games. That is why we are limited. You have to make choices as to what to use and make the best of it. You want to deal dmg in a different way? Pick up a different weapon. You dont have that freedom in other games as you do here.

I agree 100%. Pretty much all skill bloat in modern MMOs is from convoluted class design. "Oh, you want to be a tank/DPS/CC/healer/buffer/debuffer? Sure we have a class for that, any of them..."

As a matter of personal preference I'd much rather have fewer skills than more. Getting carpal tunnel from fighting 2 trash mobs isn't my thing.

Dragunzar · April 2014

I agree, we need some more slots. I've been playing DDO a lot and im used to having around 25+ different spells and abilities hotkeyed to prepare me for any situation.

Currently I feel like a lot of the abilities I choose now I may never get rid of and im putting a lot more skill points into unlocking passive abilities.

I'd like to see the hot bar be around 7-8 and 1-2 ultimates we can use at any given time. Otherwise I think a lot of abilities are simply going to be discarded. Soul trap? Where do I have room to put that ability?

Currently im set up to.

(As a Templar/tank)

One Healing ability.
One Crowd control ability.
One Ranged dps damage spell.
One close range damage spell.
And pucture from the S&B line for getting aggro/weakening foes/buffing self.

What if I want soul trap? Or vampire abilities? Or things like magelight? Theres going to be so many abilities that I simply won't use due to the fact I am so limited in options.

Perhaps we could start off with 5 skill slots and then maybe we earn an extra one every 10-20 levels? (One at 20 one at 40 and one at 50?)

Karius_Imalthar · April 2014

It's exactly what I was saying since they first announced how the skills would work. I found it a little disingenuous for them to spin the skills as "streamlined" when I am sure that they always had plans for ESO to go to consoles. It wasn't until XBOne and PS4 were released then the announcement is made that ESO will come to consoles.