5 Skills + Ultimate is not enough

jedensuscg

More skills does not mean more. In fact, in every game that gave you access to 20 or more skills at one time, were so dumbed down it is insane. Ya WoW gave you tons and tons of skills for say a mage...but guess what..EVERY SINGLE MAGE was using almost the same exact rotation, and there was no variance between them.

Have fewer skills means they can be more unique, and that they are also more situational as well. You have to know what you plan to do in advance and focus on that, be is heal, dps, CC, range, tank etc. You can't do all of it.

I run a dual wield sorc. In solo, I have two dual wield attacks, two dark magic CC's and a storm ability and the dark magic ultimate. This is MORE than enough to handle most situations..and more so it's unique because it's MY 5 skills I picked.

Some of the skills are powerful enough that having more than 2 or 3 higher level abilities would be too strong, and the only way they could have a larger hotbar would be to decrease the skills power so you could not stack 5 over the top abilities and 3 survival ones.
Imagine in PvP, having access to that many heals AND dps abilities at the same time. Again you have to choose your focus. Heal OR DPS or do a little of both but with less effectiveness, but not be a powerhouse in both at the same time.

And in the end, it is still an Elder Scrolls game. And TES has always been more minimum. You had your weapon attacks, shield bashes, and a few spells and a smattering of other abilities.

Which reminds me, I do with they had a sort of un-armed caster that could "equip" two spells at once for their basic attacks, and change each hand separately (fire ice lightning). Like how spells worked in TES

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

hamletsbatb14_ESO wrote: »

jazzinspace wrote: »

I would just like to put a post in the forums here to express my opinion that even with 2 weapon sets 5 skills + ultimate is not enough for certain classes, healers for example need the diversity of healing and damage/crowd control.

If you are a healer...why would you want to focus on damage/crowd control?

I find the having to choose your skills to make the game more tactical and allows for great diversity among characters of the same "class".

Well in TESO as a healer you have to do more than heal. You will be pulled into combat and your going to need the CC to stay alive and continue healing your group.

Trust your party. I am focusing on CC with my dual wield sorcerer for this very reason. I use my stamina for my DW weapons and my magic for the CC abilities from dark magic tree.

tldr;
you have 10 bars to use, TEN. You do not have to have a separate weapon in your second weapon spot, have the same weapon type. Have your second hotbar with your situational skills you might want to use.

jedensuscg

Duplicate

Custos91

Tried to read all this posts, simply to much, but I think I got the picture...
1:
More skills?
Remember pach days, broken addons in WoW?
You had a raid that day, and simply NO idea how to work with the 30 screwed up abilitys you could possibly need?
At higher skill lvls my highest output was eveytime I figured out, how to get the skills better in sight, reduce the visual noise on the screen...
Addons all over...
2:
Need of more skills?
Nope, like the Nopefish from Screwdistan!
Rly, I was a high skilled PVE player in WoW and SWTOR, I had my own blog, and was reading hours per week in theorycrafting forums...
I was ranked in every damn content I played, with 3 chars, or like in Tot, with all 3 specs, with my main specc in both 10/25 man hc/nh...
I played Disc Priest...
And after years of experience I saw one thing:
You CAN make your output better by using more skills, but the numbers dropp extremely, and the funny thing is the following:
The numbers dropp after the 12 (!) skill!
there you have a 0.5 % change in the numbers, depending if you pre hottet, used your CDs right, got the right communication (!!!) and many other things...
And I mean you used skills there you would infight never use again...
Much greater influence had the following thing:
Did you use the RIGHT abillity at the RIGHT time?
I'm talking of beeing that good in theorycrafting that you get annoyed by yourself, because, the better you get, the more mistakes you will see, EVERYONE makes mistakes, its calculated in encounter design...
I mean, its pretty cool the numbers of my priest match here perfectly, and I guess thats pure coincidence...but who knows?

3:
More skills? why?
I can understand this, really!
there is a simple reason:
More skills favor another playstyle than less!
In more button situations people who react fast and know everything you can know about every skill, rock!
Example: Ok, mage will use block, Massdipell, he will blink afterwards, deathgrip! in case of AE Freeze, use LichthingIcantrememberthenameof to gett him, while I....
Eso less skill situation:
Ok, I will kill that healer there, should be a quick thing...
***! He is a werewolf, he is killing me! and I have only selfheal, snare, 3 dps abilitys, deff PVP ulti, class ulti, deff CD, Buff/Debuffspell and ... here F!
Why didn't I slot my fighters guild skills?
Next time:
slottet fighters guild skills, got owned by a tank, who was in TS/Skype/mumble with the healer...
Next time:
think about it...

additionaly, with every slot more, all classes would feel more or less the same, because there is only a limmited number of class skill compared to all other skills, and not all class skills are usefull for every char!
So everyone would use a set of the same skills depending on role and class...

Shaun98ca2

Well for certain game they rely on MORE to make the horrible combat system interesting.
In TESO the combat is interesting in itself. The 5 abilities for TESO are more than enough.
EVERY skill is WAY stronger in comparison to your standard skills from WOW.
At 1st its hard for everybody to see that. And in allowing more abilities even just 1 will throw off the games balance wildy due to the fact that just 3 abilities really define your role so 3 more would allow access to a second role.

So for TESO LESS is BETTER since everybody can do everything....
We shouldn't do everything on build.
Im sure given enough effort somebody can make a self sustaining Tank with just the 5 abilities given to them on NightBlade.

VirulentPumpkin

So what you are saying is you want another WoW clone.

Drachenfier

I think one or two more would be perfect, and to be honest, i'd rather have 7 on one bar than 5 on two.

cliveklgb14_ESO

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Due to the restricted hot bar size you do not have many choices when in combat if you are part of a group , you can only perform the role you have the skills slotted for for so if your a DPS you can not replace a Healer that goes down or a Tank that goes down .This means that you might have the ability to be a tank but in the middle of a fight you can not be a backup

Your premise is false. It assumes you need all 5+1 x2 for just the one role. You don't.

Most of the time in a group where you need a tank (dungeons) you really don't even need your second weapon slot. So if you want to cover a back up role, you can use that.

As a healer I have exactly which healing spells I need for most and I can swap on that bar between bosses if I have to change. I make my decisions on setup bases on One weapon set all the time.

And then I reserve my second set for a different role.

cliveklgb14_ESO

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Takes approx 2 seconds for the following to occur
in that time the group has wiped

Another false premise that presumes a set outcome.

And basically you like the OP seem to want to be able to play any role all the time rather than having to be selective.

Everything in this game can be completed with just the 5+1. So if you are having problems not having enough, you are doing something wrong.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

hudsonhawk8200ub17_ESO wrote: »

5 Skills are plenty. DO NOT RUIN THIS. If you want 100000 skills go play WOW, or SWTOR.

We'll actually still have like 100000 skills, but can only use 10 at a time

LadyChaos

ESO 5+1 x2 skill system puts the individuality and customization into the character, and moves further away from the cookie cutter builds, most of are getting a little to old to defend anymore.

We been complaining for multiple decades now:

• "we want our characters to stand out from each other.."
• "we want more challenging combat system, but still able to solo/PvP/Dungeon etc."

Well we have it... enjoy the variety of a completely open skill system, then embrace the challenge of choice.

Shaun98ca2

You know what else is great about the current skill system. There is no PERFECT build/set up/rotation.

In wow somebody can tell you HOW to play the game and whether your doing it right or wrong because everybody is playing the exact same character.

Everything in TESO is based on player skill. Sure certain skills synergize well but that's only if your willing to give up an ability spot on the hotbar for how SOMEBODY ESLE wants to play. If you want to use the synergy you can but you build setup can have an entirely different goal that works for you.
Your skill selection is for how YOU WANT to play.

Haxer

I'm the opposite. I am generally happy with the strategic choice of having to choose skills to use for situations, for PvE vs. PvP. If they increase it all, I hope it's by maybe one or two at most.

What makes the combat great is the combination of reg/heavy/skills and balancing your stamina usage with your mana usage. Old MMO's with 60 icons on the screen, where combat looks like an accountant on a calculator, standing-still hitting 45 numbers and key bindings is dumb, and it's not at all TES.

Haxer

Psychic_Kitty wrote: »

I hate the skill limitation

...
And personally I hope their stealth will eventually last longer then 2 seconds....because my assassin is basically a pathetic warrior right now...which is kind of frustrating....in no way shape or form am I assassinating anything or feeling like a rogue...what I feel like is a sub par warrior....with attacks that do less damage.

I don't think you are playing it right. I'm an assassin, and do just fine by using sneak, then blink-striking in and unloading tons of damage. You shouldn't be relying on the invisibility skill to engage. It's a crutch, to make your escape after you flash in and burst. We do not need longer invisibility, and we're not just "bad warriors".

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Im a warlock i drain your health wooo hooo

1337VV4ff135

I want to say that part of the reason for the skill limitation is due to the oversimplifying of the game in order to put it on home consoles, and not just PC/Mac. Just a thought.

squtternutbash

So many comments, my apologies if I'm repeating anything. Being able to weapon swap (at 15 I think?) Opens it up for a second skill bar. This forces you to specialize and form an actual strategy based on what you are fighting, rather than allowing you to endlessly spam every skill in your arsenal. I know other games do it, but I kinda like the extra challenge.

Another good example of this is The Secret World. Allows for 5 or 6 actives and the same number of passives, forcing you to choose.

zbcole

Your limitation is 10 skills, 2 ultimates by level 15. That is not limitation. It's choice, and the choice involved is yours to make. There are a ton of options at your disposal. What you are locked into is your armor choices, but you can go from healing to a sword and shield tank set.

I like the fact that everyone has to know a build and develop their choices for what to use. You could have 100 different people together and have all different builds/customizations.

Variety is a good thing. The gameplay is much faster than other mmo's. Too many abilities would just hinder people in most cases.

Shaun98ca2

1337VV4ff135 wrote: »

I want to say that part of the reason for the skill limitation is due to the oversimplifying of the game in order to put it on home consoles, and not just PC/Mac. Just a thought.

This is incorrect that is NOT the reason. The decision to allow the game to be portable was made AFTER the 5+1 decision.

Shaun98ca2

People keep bringing up the "its because of consoles" but consoles have L&R for Attack and Block and 4 face buttions.....the math doesn't add up how would you execute your 5th attack and your ultimate and jump.

You say its because of consoles then explain the set up they are using or never use that argument again.

phtony06b14_ESO

I find it kind of refreshing. Knowing I don't have to keybind 48 abilities using all kinds of alt/ctrl/shift variants & combinations is a plus for me.

Psychic_Kitty

Extremeties wrote: »

Why do players have more skills? Because it allows for that player to create a character that can fulfill many different roles/builds with the variations of skills. Your not locked into just 1 character how you are in other games. That is why we are limited. You have to make choices as to what to use and make the best of it. You want to deal dmg in a different way? Pick up a different weapon. You dont have that freedom in other games as you do here.

I disagree with you when you say people will leave simply because you cant use as many skills. Games that had 40 hotsbars with 400000 abilities is a bit far fetched and a joke. Half the time or MOST of the time you have absolutely no idea what half of them even do.

yep and in the end they cant use most of them.

In real life you are able to change and adapt...in this game....with its limitation you cant do that.

Instead if your group is practically dead...you cant do a thing to help them.

You are stuck with whatever skills you chose.

This also creates the usual....you have specific players with specific functions issue.

That's where your only healer dies and "oooopps" no more heals...or what about the tank....if they die....no more tank. Thus then the blame happens....."you didn't heal me enough" or "you didn't tank well enough"

Which then gets to idiots who back seat drive and only have specific ways to do things..

Thus then it becomes....you are no longer creating a character to play or adventure or have fun....you find you made a character who cant play because no one wants you. "sorry we don't need another healer" "sorry we already have a tank"

yep alienation....its the death nail in most games....when the imposed game play literally has other players tell someone: "go away you are worthless"

DC universe, diablo 3 and Neverwinter have these same limited skill issues currently and its interesting to see how the player base is dwindling on them.
And watching the developers trying to bail the water of their sinking ships is interesting as well, as they all seam clueless. These topics show up a lot on their own forums...but they ignore them, irony at its best.

terryammon

The game 100% need more qbars slots but no action slots.
Spells like players buffs/pets/silly spells (ie Soul collecting one) should have 2nd qbar.

Reasons why i think so:

1* Sorc cant change qbar with pets unless the pets are on both qbars (-2 slots on both qbar)

2* Easy for Sorc to hit the wrong button in a middle of a fight and it kills your pet and your dead.

3* Spells like the one that you use to collect souls, no good to any but you need to use it.

Im sure theres more classes that could do with a couple more slots too, also dont you need a 2nd lot of weapons for the 2nd qbar??

Shaun98ca2

Psychic_Kitty wrote: »

Extremeties wrote: »

Why do players have more skills? Because it allows for that player to create a character that can fulfill many different roles/builds with the variations of skills. Your not locked into just 1 character how you are in other games. That is why we are limited. You have to make choices as to what to use and make the best of it. You want to deal dmg in a different way? Pick up a different weapon. You dont have that freedom in other games as you do here.

I disagree with you when you say people will leave simply because you cant use as many skills. Games that had 40 hotsbars with 400000 abilities is a bit far fetched and a joke. Half the time or MOST of the time you have absolutely no idea what half of them even do.

yep and in the end they cant use most of them.

In real life you are able to change and adapt...in this game....with its limitation you cant do that.

Instead if your group is practically dead...you cant do a thing to help them.

You are stuck with whatever skills you chose.

This also creates the usual....you have specific players with specific functions issue.

That's where your only healer dies and "oooopps" no more heals...or what about the tank....if they die....no more tank. Thus then the blame happens....."you didn't heal me enough" or "you didn't tank well enough"

Which then gets to idiots who back seat drive and only have specific ways to do things..

Thus then it becomes....you are no longer creating a character to play or adventure or have fun....you find you made a character who cant play because no one wants you. "sorry we don't need another healer" "sorry we already have a tank"

yep alienation....its the death nail in most games....when the imposed game play literally has other players tell someone: "go away you are worthless"

DC universe, diablo 3 and Neverwinter have these same limited skill issues currently and its interesting to see how the player base is dwindling on them.
And watching the developers trying to bail the water of their sinking ships is interesting as well, as they all seam clueless. These topics show up a lot on their own forums...but they ignore them, irony at its best.

Your argument is complete fail. Most mmo's like wow suffer from the same things you already mention. If the healer or tank dies in the group the party is usually screwed its rare to have a back up for either role that somebody can switch to during combat.

TESO you have weapon swap and as its been stated before I will state again. Weapon swap allows for 2 roles per character. Whether people WANT to utilize those for 2 different roles or not is up to each individual. But the fact remains, each hotbar is a DIFFERENT role.

So you can set up 1.DPS 2.Healer or 1.DPS 2.Tank
No other MMO allows you to switch roles during combat.

Shaun98ca2

terryammon wrote: »

The game 100% need more qbars slots but no action slots.
Spells like players buffs/pets/silly spells (ie Soul collecting one) should have 2nd qbar.

Reasons why i think so:

1* Sorc cant change qbar with pets unless the pets are on both qbars (-2 slots on both qbar)

2* Easy for Sorc to hit the wrong button in a middle of a fight and it kills your pet and your dead.

3* Spells like the one that you use to collect souls, no good to any but you need to use it.

Im sure theres more classes that could do with a couple more slots too, also dont you need a 2nd lot of weapons for the 2nd qbar??

You forget Weapon Swapping is a ROLE change. So taking the 2nd HotBar out of the equation your 5+1 is your ROLE and everything you need to fulfill that role. That's why there are inconveniences with weapon swapping. Because its a role change. You can change from Tank to Healer with a Weapon Swap.

Chomag

The skillset is like this in order to cater to console noobs and their *** controllers.

LadyChaos

Psychic_Kitty wrote:

/snip
DC universe, diablo 3 and Neverwinter have these same limited skill issues currently and its interesting to see how the player base is dwindling on them.
And watching the developers trying to bail the water of their sinking ships is interesting as well, as they all seam clueless. These topics show up a lot on their own forums...but they ignore them, irony at its best.

GW2 still going strong only allows similar amount and you can't even chose the individual ones, only the set. Neverwinter.. nothing to do with that drama is the the hot bar choices, but as irrelevant as the argument of "mommy all my friends MMOs are doing it why can't I?" Same answer, that's them. They have their own flaws and concerns, and their own business model and vision of an MMO.

I think when you compare mechanics to help relate or understand something new better is great, but when you use it to turn an entire franchise into another is not so helpful feedback, IMO of course.

Shaun98ca2

Chomag wrote: »

The skillset is like this in order to cater to console noobs and their *** controllers.

Please explain how this fits perfectly on a controller.

Chomag

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Chomag wrote: »

The skillset is like this in order to cater to console noobs and their *** controllers.

Please explain how this fits perfectly on a controller.

Controllers have several buttons and obviously can't play a game that has a lot of buttons, not like a keyboard player, so the game is dumbed down to cater to the console crowd.

Shaun98ca2

Then how do you play Final Fantasy Online ON Console like they released?

Also the number of abilities plus attack and block and jump don't fit on a controller easily at all so your argument is fail.

LadyChaos

Chomag wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Chomag wrote: »

The skillset is like this in order to cater to console noobs and their *** controllers.

Please explain how this fits perfectly on a controller.

Controllers have several buttons and obviously can't play a game that has a lot of buttons, not like a keyboard player, so the game is dumbed down to cater to the console crowd.

No

ESO was made for PC and migrated to consoles after it was already in Beta.