PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Warden Balance

Vaoh · April 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As much as magdens want buffs, keep in mind that you aren't that only build. I've seen too many suggestions here that would negatively impact warden tanks just to throw magicka wardens a bone.

Aside from more healing, no changes are needed for arctic blast. It doesn't need to scale from magicka or be turned into a single target dot - it currently serves an important role in crowd control and debuffing for tanks.

Shimmering shield is also a very important tool for warden tanks that does not need further nerfs or changes. If you want to make one morph better for non tanks, make adjustments to Crystal slab.

The warden trees are pretty clearly outlined: animal companions is meant to be your damage tree, not winters embrace. Start your changes there by focusing on cliff racer, swarm, and shalks. Zos had made it abundantly clear by now that frost is for tanking and defensive utility, not damage

Arctic Blast is very weak in damage (even on Max Health builds), and Minor Maim should already be applied to important targets anyway. Warden tanks use the other morph, and regardless it's pointless for there to be two morphs that function this way. Also judging by your reference to a cold-based single target Direct Damage+DoT effect, you're probably referring to my own suggestion. I said for the original Arctic Blast to become part of the base skill, alongside a buff to Polar Wind. It'd be a buff to Warden tank no matter how you look at it.

Shimmering Shield isn't useful to tanks because of the sheer damage mitigation (even though it's nice to have), but rather because of the Ult gen. Plus any PvP or PvE Warden tank should have a lot more Max Magicka than a Stam Warden PvP build. The intention of scaling Shimmering Shield from Max Magicka in a similar way to damage shields like Annulment would be to nerf the effectiveness of it on currently overperforming Stam Wardens, while keeping it relatively the same on Mag Wardens.

The Warden skill trees have been outlined by ZOS to fit one role each, yes. But maybe it was a mistake? Because as of a few days ago here were the PS4 NA trial leaderboards class makeup (all Trials and DSA):
DK: 21.95%
Sorc: 24.35%
NB: 28.64%
Templar: 23.32%
Warden: 1.740%

Full post:
PS4 NA

Here are the percentages of each class representation per trial:

Hel Ra Citadel:
DK: 23.12%
Sorc: 26.30%
NB: 26.01%
Templar: 22.68%
Warden: 1.878%

Aetherian Archive
DK: 18.95%
Sorc: 24.18%
NB: 30.74%
Templar: 24.42%
Warden: 0.895%

Sanctum Ophidia
DK: 3.72%
Sorc: 25.74%
NB: 23.32%
Templar: 24.66%
Warden: 2.560%

Dragonstar Arena
DK: 29.59%
Sorc: 31.39%
NB: 21.07%
Templar: 15.24%
Warden: 2.690%

Maw of Lorkhaj
DK: 24.38%
Sorc: 20.08%
NB: 30.94%
Templar: 31.76%
Warden: 1.024%

Halls of Fabrication
DK: 22.24%
Sorc: 21.56%
NB: 31.65%
Templar: 23.85%
Warden: 0.688%

Asylum Sanctorium
DK: 11.98%
Sorc: 22.71%
NB: 40.06%
Templar: 22.08%
Warden: 3.154%

TOTAL
DK: 21.95%
Sorc: 24.35%
NB: 28.64%
Templar: 23.32%
Warden: 1.740%

Here are the raw numbers, including the total entries per trial.
Using a similar template to what GaelicCat made.

Hel Ra Citadel:
Total entries: 692
DK: 160
Sorc: 182
NB: 180
Templar: 157
Warden: 13

Aetherian Archive
Total entries: 670
DK: 127
Sorc: 162
NB: 206
Templar: 169
Warden: 6 .... fun fact: 3 entries were the same person, 1 was me because I was really bored during and did the weekly .....

Sanctum Ophidia
Total entries: 742
DK: 176
Sorc: 191
NB: 173
Templar: 183
Warden: 19

Dragonstar Arena
Total entries: 223
DK: 66
Sorc: 70
NB: 47
Templar: 34
Warden: 6

Maw of Lorkhaj
Total entries: 488
DK: 119
Sorc: 98
NB: 151
Templar: 115
Warden: 5

Halls of Fabrication
Total entries: 436
DK: 97
Sorc: 94
NB: 138
Templar: 104
Warden: 3

Asylum Sanctorium
Total entries: 317
DK: 38
Sorc: 72
NB: 127
Templar: 70
Warden: 10

TOTAL
Total entries: 3568
DK: 783
Sorc: 869
NB: 1022
Templar: 832
Warden: 62

EDITED to make sure this is all correct.

As of April 21st, 2018 at 2:01am est, this is exactly what the PS4 NA trial leaderboards look like.

Judging by the numbers that players from PC EU and other servers have posted, this is pretty much consistent across all servers.

So whatever they were trying to do with Wardens hasn't worked very well. The other classes aren't built in the same weird way as Warden, so maybe they should actually get to buffing this class and breaking out of this "one skill line per role" mess? Thats the general consensus at least. Also Winter's Revenge, which is the Magicka Warden's class-based AOE DoT originally did not scale off of Maximum Magicka+Spell Damage when the class was being tested before Morriwnd launch. They recognized the issue and changed it, meaning Winter's Embrace is *not* exclusively meant for tanking. They just need to make logical changes and not base balance off of fitting within the arbitrary roles they want each skill line to be used for.

I'm a warden tank, and I use arctic blast. So you're wrong right off the bat there.

I would much rather have arctic blast's chance to chill nearby enemies every 2 seconds over a minor single target heal with abysmal range. I think most other warden tanks would agree. Without arctic blast (on top of blockade and shards), maintaining near to 100% uptime on chilled (and thus root and minor maim) on mob packs would be significantly harder.

That utility is far more valuable than healing one ally within 5 meters for 4k health.

Chill lol. Did you only read the first sentence in my post? There is no argument here.

The suggestion was to get both morphs. Also if I were to run a skill like Soul Trap it doesn’t make it good - just because a few tanks take one morph rather than the other doesn’t make it good. Ofc this doesn’t matter, because again, the suggestion is to make the current Arctic Blast part of the base skill. If you use Arctic Blast that’s great, but the suggestion, again, is to make it part of the base skill.

mb10 · April 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As much as magdens want buffs, keep in mind that you aren't that only build. I've seen too many suggestions here that would negatively impact warden tanks just to throw magicka wardens a bone.

Aside from more healing, no changes are needed for arctic blast. It doesn't need to scale from magicka or be turned into a single target dot - it currently serves an important role in crowd control and debuffing for tanks.

Shimmering shield is also a very important tool for warden tanks that does not need further nerfs or changes. If you want to make one morph better for non tanks, make adjustments to Crystal slab.

The warden trees are pretty clearly outlined: animal companions is meant to be your damage tree, not winters embrace. Start your changes there by focusing on cliff racer, swarm, and shalks. Zos had made it abundantly clear by now that frost is for tanking and defensive utility, not damage

Why should Arctic Blast not scale off max magicka and spell damage like every skill in the game? Lol that makes no sense at all.

The skill needs serious work.
The heal is terrible, the damage is terrible and the damage is every TWO seconds. Its straight up awful atm.

All 3 things need to be addressed with the skill and imo, the healing should be completely removed. Since when can frost spells heal in the TES world anyway

Zardayne · April 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

@BrokenGameMechanics (ironic name)

You are looking at things in isolation, in a vacuum, and doing so is preventing you from seeing how it is a confluence of factors, many of which come from outside Warden mechanics, that make PvP Stam Wardens really strong and PvP Magicka Wardens find it *really* hard to be competitive at anything besides healer-support tank.

My stam Warden doesn't care that Sub Assault has no stun because my cheap burst ultimate Dawnbreaker does just this (as does a strong accessible spammable Dizzying Swing). My magicka Warden does care because my Dawnbreaker will hit like a wet noodle and Flame reach does not nearly hit as hard as Dizzying Swing.

My stam Waden doesn't care that the stam bird skill does less damage than magicka's because my stam Warden doesn't even use that skill (because more versatile skills are offered in the weapon lines, something not available to magicka Wardens).

My stam warden isn't much concerned about not to having a DoT since I can get those from poisons or by using a very strong skill in Rending Slashes. My magicka Warden is very much concerned with only have DPS skills that do damage because I can't get useful secondary effects and debuffs like snare, defile, healing, speed, executes, crit chance, hit dodge rollers, etc., that other classes have access to.

My stam Warden could give diddly squat how many stamina morphs there are because I only need Sub Assualt and I'd rather have buffs drawn from my useless magicka pool.

The warden skillline is not better, not even close, for mag wardens because stam can get all the stuff missing in Warden skill line elsewhere. Magicka can't. So stam wardens have options to be versatile and strong at whatever they do, whereas magicka Wardens have too many holes that get exposed in competitive settings. No execute, no CC, no secondary effects, too few damage skills (all easily avoidable), what exactly are they supposed to do to kill a good player?

Alliance war rankings mostly measure time played, not campaign effectiveness so that's a meaningless measurement.

I couldn't have said it better myself...

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As much as magdens want buffs, keep in mind that you aren't that only build. I've seen too many suggestions here that would negatively impact warden tanks just to throw magicka wardens a bone.

Aside from more healing, no changes are needed for arctic blast. It doesn't need to scale from magicka or be turned into a single target dot - it currently serves an important role in crowd control and debuffing for tanks.

Shimmering shield is also a very important tool for warden tanks that does not need further nerfs or changes. If you want to make one morph better for non tanks, make adjustments to Crystal slab.

The warden trees are pretty clearly outlined: animal companions is meant to be your damage tree, not winters embrace. Start your changes there by focusing on cliff racer, swarm, and shalks. Zos had made it abundantly clear by now that frost is for tanking and defensive utility, not damage

Arctic Blast is very weak in damage (even on Max Health builds), and Minor Maim should already be applied to important targets anyway. Warden tanks use the other morph, and regardless it's pointless for there to be two morphs that function this way. Also judging by your reference to a cold-based single target Direct Damage+DoT effect, you're probably referring to my own suggestion. I said for the original Arctic Blast to become part of the base skill, alongside a buff to Polar Wind. It'd be a buff to Warden tank no matter how you look at it.

Shimmering Shield isn't useful to tanks because of the sheer damage mitigation (even though it's nice to have), but rather because of the Ult gen. Plus any PvP or PvE Warden tank should have a lot more Max Magicka than a Stam Warden PvP build. The intention of scaling Shimmering Shield from Max Magicka in a similar way to damage shields like Annulment would be to nerf the effectiveness of it on currently overperforming Stam Wardens, while keeping it relatively the same on Mag Wardens.

The Warden skill trees have been outlined by ZOS to fit one role each, yes. But maybe it was a mistake? Because as of a few days ago here were the PS4 NA trial leaderboards class makeup (all Trials and DSA):
DK: 21.95%
Sorc: 24.35%
NB: 28.64%
Templar: 23.32%
Warden: 1.740%

Full post:
PS4 NA

Here are the percentages of each class representation per trial:

Hel Ra Citadel:
DK: 23.12%
Sorc: 26.30%
NB: 26.01%
Templar: 22.68%
Warden: 1.878%

Aetherian Archive
DK: 18.95%
Sorc: 24.18%
NB: 30.74%
Templar: 24.42%
Warden: 0.895%

Sanctum Ophidia
DK: 3.72%
Sorc: 25.74%
NB: 23.32%
Templar: 24.66%
Warden: 2.560%

Dragonstar Arena
DK: 29.59%
Sorc: 31.39%
NB: 21.07%
Templar: 15.24%
Warden: 2.690%

Maw of Lorkhaj
DK: 24.38%
Sorc: 20.08%
NB: 30.94%
Templar: 31.76%
Warden: 1.024%

Halls of Fabrication
DK: 22.24%
Sorc: 21.56%
NB: 31.65%
Templar: 23.85%
Warden: 0.688%

Asylum Sanctorium
DK: 11.98%
Sorc: 22.71%
NB: 40.06%
Templar: 22.08%
Warden: 3.154%

TOTAL
DK: 21.95%
Sorc: 24.35%
NB: 28.64%
Templar: 23.32%
Warden: 1.740%

Here are the raw numbers, including the total entries per trial.
Using a similar template to what GaelicCat made.

Hel Ra Citadel:
Total entries: 692
DK: 160
Sorc: 182
NB: 180
Templar: 157
Warden: 13

Aetherian Archive
Total entries: 670
DK: 127
Sorc: 162
NB: 206
Templar: 169
Warden: 6 .... fun fact: 3 entries were the same person, 1 was me because I was really bored during and did the weekly .....

Sanctum Ophidia
Total entries: 742
DK: 176
Sorc: 191
NB: 173
Templar: 183
Warden: 19

Dragonstar Arena
Total entries: 223
DK: 66
Sorc: 70
NB: 47
Templar: 34
Warden: 6

Maw of Lorkhaj
Total entries: 488
DK: 119
Sorc: 98
NB: 151
Templar: 115
Warden: 5

Halls of Fabrication
Total entries: 436
DK: 97
Sorc: 94
NB: 138
Templar: 104
Warden: 3

Asylum Sanctorium
Total entries: 317
DK: 38
Sorc: 72
NB: 127
Templar: 70
Warden: 10

TOTAL
Total entries: 3568
DK: 783
Sorc: 869
NB: 1022
Templar: 832
Warden: 62

EDITED to make sure this is all correct.

As of April 21st, 2018 at 2:01am est, this is exactly what the PS4 NA trial leaderboards look like.

Judging by the numbers that players from PC EU and other servers have posted, this is pretty much consistent across all servers.

So whatever they were trying to do with Wardens hasn't worked very well. The other classes aren't built in the same weird way as Warden, so maybe they should actually get to buffing this class and breaking out of this "one skill line per role" mess? Thats the general consensus at least. Also Winter's Revenge, which is the Magicka Warden's class-based AOE DoT originally did not scale off of Maximum Magicka+Spell Damage when the class was being tested before Morriwnd launch. They recognized the issue and changed it, meaning Winter's Embrace is *not* exclusively meant for tanking. They just need to make logical changes and not base balance off of fitting within the arbitrary roles they want each skill line to be used for.

I'm a warden tank, and I use arctic blast. So you're wrong right off the bat there.

I would much rather have arctic blast's chance to chill nearby enemies every 2 seconds over a minor single target heal with abysmal range. I think most other warden tanks would agree. Without arctic blast (on top of blockade and shards), maintaining near to 100% uptime on chilled (and thus root and minor maim) on mob packs would be significantly harder.

That utility is far more valuable than healing one ally within 5 meters for 4k health.

@Vaoh, @Lynx7386 is telling the truth. I do not run a stamina based skill that I get half of via another route. Using Ice I easily maintain 100% uptime on Minor Maim, and prod Deep Freeze on cool down. I’m a tank, if you want heals, bring your own or trust the healer.. my one hit of 4K is pretty useless. I did test this in the begaining, you need all 3 Frost skills to achieve good Maim uptime.
As for Shimmering Shield, on my tank my Shimmering is worth 60k and my Stam/MagDen it’s worth 30k. So changing that to a max mag based skill would be absolutely ridiculous. You wouldn’t be leaving MagDen unchanged and nerfing StamDen. Instead it would be no change at all on a StamDen, and an insane buff to MagDen. Because Health is not the StamDens main resource.

Also your claim of 1 skill line per role is completely wrong. All the same tanking skills are in one DK tree. Only Wardens have chains in that tree too. Templars have a tree completely devoted to Healing nothing in Restoring Light does anything but buff or heal.

There are 3 places to buff Warden damage
- Crystalized Slab morph. This morph might as well not exist because Shimmering is so much better.
- Nature’s Grasp both morphs, it’s a dumb idea to make healers jump to the person taking damage.
- Swarm, buff to both morphs. Probably in the form of a buff as the damage is actually pretty strong. Though making it into a full AoE would be another option.

- Fourth Option - Drop Polar wind all together, and make that the damage morph. Though I suspect that would meet with more resistance. I know many would agree with the other 3 though.

Lynx7386 · April 2018

- Swarm, buff to both morphs. Probably in the form of a buff as the damage is actually pretty strong. Though making it into a full AoE would be another option

I would disagree here. Swarm deals less than 1k per second compared to 2k+ from most ground placed aoes.

Growing swarm should be made a true aoe, I would still like to see it made like a placed hurricane effect (gains radius and damage over time) ad that would fit the name and usage of the ability.

_Ahala_ · April 2018

The gap closing effect of nature’s grasp is actually incredibly useful in pvp as you can throw a vine and to an allied sorc or speedy stam character and be out of the frey even if you get stunned and snared by the oncoming zerg... if you get petrified it will literally dragged your rock covered body away...

I actually think every skill on the green balance tree is well done., cudos to zos here.. maybe you could add a pre-activation hot to the budding seeds morph, make bursting vines actually heal the caster instead of letting you die if you bursting vines a full health ally whose at full health while you die to dots and mages fury at his/her feet, or fix lotus blossom so it actually shows those awesome cyan weapon effects like green lotus... but all in all, they are all interesting heals with good secondary effects... if our damaging abilities were as numerous and creative we would be in a very good place

But yes buff swarm, make it execute... and for the love of all things frosty give us a hard cc somewhere in winters embrace and perhaps a snare to make landing our fissures easier... btw if fissure proceed off balance that would be problem solved as far as group utility and need for cc, and it makes sense.... you are ripping away the ground from under their feet

Hutch679 · April 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

- Swarm, buff to both morphs. Probably in the form of a buff as the damage is actually pretty strong. Though making it into a full AoE would be another option

I would disagree here. Swarm deals less than 1k per second compared to 2k+ from most ground placed aoes.

Growing swarm should be made a true aoe, I would still like to see it made like a placed hurricane effect (gains radius and damage over time) ad that would fit the name and usage of the ability.

Growing swarm: This morph casts the ability on yourself. The effect lasts 10 seconds over time and any enemy the swarm touches inflicts [X] magic damage over 10 seconds. This damage places an aoe effect on an enemy that will further spread to other enemies if they come in contact with them. Each time the effect is spread, the damage increases by 1/2/3/4% up to a maximum of 4/8/12/16%.

Radius on self: 8m
Radius on enemies: 4m

Go on. Hit agree or awesome. You know you want to.

Mihael · April 2018

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

I have a simple solution for you, find a good player on your server first duel then on your stam warden then duel them on your mag warden. Once you see how much easier it is on your stam character come back to help us ask zos for a magden fix.

Bonus:
And while you are at it try dueling them on a stam dk then on a stam warden afterwards come tell me if you see any reason to play stam warden over that class

That is only going to give a subjective experience of me vs X or you vs X. I still think the most simple and clearest evidence is the Ranking boards which reflect 100s of players over 1000s of hours. The fact is that that for Trial rankings there are very few Wardens of any type. It only takes 3 mins to look at the Vivic rankings. No Wardens in the Top 10 (when I wrote my first post) and only 12 total Wardens in the All Alliance Rankings Top 100. And I doubt all of them are Stamdens, but hey, who knows.

And not saying Stamden is not any better than Magden at all. Cause I do not believe that. Just saying since the Warden skill line as a whole is better for Mag Wardens than the Stamden Warden any advantage must be mostly due to the general advantage of Stam toons vs Magica toons in general from the common skill lines plus some of the nice heal passives.

Forget the Stam Warden vs Magica Warden ... not the issue I was really trying to make a point about. The main point is are Stamden's truly THE OP class of PVP that you see claimed here so often on the boards.

Question: If Stamdens are super powered OP PVP killing machines then where are they in the PVP rankings? I'm open to alternative explanations, "the most OP class in PVP is not reflected in the PVP campaign rankings because ....".

Again not saying they are trash at all. They are pretty solid, but less so then say 6-8 months ago with the nerf tweaks. But they are not OP PVP god toons. I'd agree with that in a second if 3-4 of the Top 10 were Wardens or 35 of the Top 100 or whatever but anyone here can go look at the leader boards and count.

But gotten off topic so I'll let it rest ...

It’s going to give you a good measure of how the class actually performs in combat looking at the alliance leader board will only give you a good measure how long certain individuals are spending on the game, if we went by this logic we could say that there are more magplar in the leaderboard then stamden so magplar is a better class, which hopefully we can both agree is not true

_Ahala_ · April 2018

The swarm shall envelop cyrodil... good

Lynx7386 · April 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

- Swarm, buff to both morphs. Probably in the form of a buff as the damage is actually pretty strong. Though making it into a full AoE would be another option

I would disagree here. Swarm deals less than 1k per second compared to 2k+ from most ground placed aoes.

Growing swarm should be made a true aoe, I would still like to see it made like a placed hurricane effect (gains radius and damage over time) ad that would fit the name and usage of the ability.

Growing swarm: This morph casts the ability on yourself. The effect lasts 10 seconds over time and any enemy the swarm touches inflicts [X] magic damage over 10 seconds. This damage places an aoe effect on an enemy that will further spread to other enemies if they come in contact with them. Each time the effect is spread, the damage increases by 1/2/3/4% up to a maximum of 4/8/12/16%.

Radius on self: 8m
Radius on enemies: 4m

Go on. Hit agree or awesome. You know you want to.

I was thinking more along the lines of:

Growing swarm
Summon a cloud of insects at the target location (initially 6 meters radius) for 12 seconds. Every 3 seconds the swarm grows, gaining 2m radius and 50% more damage, up to a max of 12m radius and +150% damage

Alendrin · April 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Warden combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

Current Warden balance is terrible, there's just no other way to say it. I don't even know what to say when its been this way for a year and you are making it worse in the Summerset patch.

I have not read the whole thread, but I did think Voah's reply was excellent. I'll add a few other things as well.

The change to deep fissure and subterranean assault make no sense. Subterranean assault will still be strong in pvp, but this skill will now be worse in all pve and mag warden pvp which all already under perform. I think you should revert the change and maybe reduce the damage of the sub assault morph slightly as Vaoh suggested.

The change to shimmering shield is good, but more might be required. It does pretty much shut down ranged builds. I'm afraid to suggest any additional changes because so much else of the warden is still garbage.

The other changes are meh; I don't think they will have impact either way.

Now with regards to class balance, I think its fairly obvious that the way things have worked in this game is that the stamina classes rely more heavily on weapon skills and the magicka classes rely more heavily on class abilities. The weapon setups for pvp are well defined, and the stamina warden is strong because the class provides a wide range of buffs and passives to support the weapon abilities, giving players a wide variety of choices to build and cover all the needs of a pvp character. Sub assault is the only damage skill used from the class and I could see reducing the damage a little but I also think the skill does have counterplay. Am I the only person who has sorcs streak through me, people strafe, cc, or immobilize me when charging this skill? The fact that 2/3 of players stand there like lumps when being attacked is not a skill balance issue. The fact that players will chase someone around a corner into an ult bomb despite this having already happened to them 500 times is not a skill balance issue.

Along these lines, the magicka warden is terrible at damage because there are so few class damage skills - far fewer than other classes, and only one offensive weapon, the destruction staff. Other classes have more good magicka damage class skills than the warden has damaging class skills (most of which are bad). To make matters worse, the frost staff, which could work with the increased frost damage at least a little is now a tanking weapon.

As far as skills go on magicka,

Cliff racer - I get the change to make it dodge-able, but why would anyone use this skill now in pve or pvp? It is now an un-impressive spam-able where most others are aoe or give some other bonus (like the heal/free cast from whip). I would always use crushing shock or force pulse instead. The way to get good dps is to stack damage over times anyways so you really don't want to be doing spamming.

Fletcher - un-impressive damage. Another issue is am I supposed to put my cp into increasing damage over time or direct damage on the mag warden? The few damage skills are so spread out...which is it supposed to be?

Ice skills are mostly for tanking. The idea of the "frost mage" does not exist in the class. Realistically more of the ice skills should have damage morphs, which would solve a lot of problems. It would also be nice if the ice staff could be used on a warden damage dealer without massively under performing.

The bear is terrible. It dies all the time only does good damage in certain single target scenarios. All this for giving up ultimate on both bars.

Finally, how does the warden not have a ranged magicka cc? Every other class does, if not multiples. If you want to remove it from deep fissure its got to be put somewhere else. This is a huge issue in magicka warden pvp.

I'm still looking at if any of the psijic skills really help the warden, in general my opinion is no. Time stop is not the answer, that skill is too easy to bash or avoid.

MLGProPlayer · April 2018

Alendrin wrote: »

Cliff racer - I get the change to make it dodge-able, but why would anyone use this skill now in pve or pvp? It is now an un-impressive spam-able where most others are aoe or give some other bonus (like the heal/free cast from whip). I would always use crushing shock or force pulse instead. The way to get good dps is to stack damage over times anyways so you really don't want to be doing spamming.

I was under the impression that force pulse is only better if you are using perfected asylum staff. Cliff racer does more damage and costs less otherwise (it also boosts your advanced species passive).

Anethum · April 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Warden combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

3200 is too cheap for shimmering shield. It should at least do not return magicka back with such cost.
It is same overpowered as on live until morrowind relised, because 1200 magicka cost at the end instead 700 is almost same.
3 projectiles, Major heroism without cooldown, 1200 magicka cos...it's ridiculous.
Poor as hell stamina dragonknight should manage in Summerset: dragon scale for 4k, fragmented shield for 4k, volatile armor or dragonblood for healing passive and or resists or crap heal each 4k also.
Stamina warden - hallo pay2win, only shimmering shield per 1200 magicka and Green Lotus 3k per 20 seconds for crits on both bars and healing on each light or heavy atack. U need only base magicka and mag recovery stats to absolutl.y comfortable manage everything on warden. Ridiculous.
+ he have class burst stamina heal...
Change it please, Balance...

Tryxus · April 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Alendrin wrote: »

Cliff racer - I get the change to make it dodge-able, but why would anyone use this skill now in pve or pvp? It is now an un-impressive spam-able where most others are aoe or give some other bonus (like the heal/free cast from whip). I would always use crushing shock or force pulse instead. The way to get good dps is to stack damage over times anyways so you really don't want to be doing spamming.

I was under the impression that force pulse is only better if you are using perfected asylum staff. Cliff racer does more damage and costs less otherwise (it also boosts your advanced species passive).

Yup, it's cheaper, more damaging & you get a regen and damage increase for slotting it. The preferred choice for PvE and with the increased speed it's def better for PvP as well

But Alendrin does have a point though: both the Magicka and Stamina versions only deal damage and nothing more. It would be nice if they received secondary effects that could give the Warden more utility (hopefully something that would make Wardens more desirable to have in PvE and PvP groups)

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

- Swarm, buff to both morphs. Probably in the form of a buff as the damage is actually pretty strong. Though making it into a full AoE would be another option

I would disagree here. Swarm deals less than 1k per second compared to 2k+ from most ground placed aoes.

Growing swarm should be made a true aoe, I would still like to see it made like a placed hurricane effect (gains radius and damage over time) ad that would fit the name and usage of the ability.

Growing swarm: This morph casts the ability on yourself. The effect lasts 10 seconds over time and any enemy the swarm touches inflicts [X] magic damage over 10 seconds. This damage places an aoe effect on an enemy that will further spread to other enemies if they come in contact with them. Each time the effect is spread, the damage increases by 1/2/3/4% up to a maximum of 4/8/12/16%.

Radius on self: 8m
Radius on enemies: 4m

Go on. Hit agree or awesome. You know you want to.

I was thinking more along the lines of:

Growing swarm
Summon a cloud of insects at the target location (initially 6 meters radius) for 12 seconds. Every 3 seconds the swarm grows, gaining 2m radius and 50% more damage, up to a max of 12m radius and +150% damage

Actually like his idea more. It would keep the strength of the passive as each cloud ends and heals. Though I think we are really looking at PvP vs PvE ideas. How about making each idea the 2 morphs?

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

diplomatt wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Warden combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

3200 is too cheap for shimmering shield. It should at least do not return magicka back with such cost.
It is same overpowered as on live until morrowind relised, because 1200 magicka cost at the end instead 700 is almost same.
3 projectiles, Major heroism without cooldown, 1200 magicka cos...it's ridiculous.
Poor as hell stamina dragonknight should manage in Summerset: dragon scale for 4k, fragmented shield for 4k, volatile armor or dragonblood for healing passive and or resists or crap heal each 4k also.
Stamina warden - hallo pay2win, only shimmering shield per 1200 magicka and Green Lotus 3k per 20 seconds for crits on both bars and healing on each light or heavy atack. U need only base magicka and mag recovery stats to absolutl.y comfortable manage everything on warden. Ridiculous.
+ he have class burst stamina heal...
Change it please, Balance...

You heard of a skill called Harness Magicka? Cost 1000 more returns 1500 more. Oh an prtects you from all damage, not just projectiles. Maybe actually compare skills before crying "balance"

Torbschka · April 2018

Well, I just wait until monday, since there should be new patch notes with balance changes.

@shimmering: let it scale with magicka, but dont nerf it for mag warden for whatever reason.

Regarding cliff racer - how does it feel to weave on pts, is it "less clunky" cuz of the speed increasement?

I just dont understand why they need 4-5 pts patches for Fürther improvemenrs Ehen they has 5 month to put it in the first, big patch. If this really was their "serious" plan for magicka warden, I dont think we will get well out of this. Its obvious that they dont have a clue about warden, nor do the people "talking" to them and giving feedback (hello class representative or whatever)

MLGProPlayer · April 2018

Torbschka wrote: »

Regarding cliff racer - how does it feel to weave on pts, is it "less clunky" cuz of the speed increasement?

It honestly doesn't feel any different to me. I'm sure it is 33% faster, but it's not something you notice.

MLGProPlayer · April 2018

Tryxus wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Alendrin wrote: »

Cliff racer - I get the change to make it dodge-able, but why would anyone use this skill now in pve or pvp? It is now an un-impressive spam-able where most others are aoe or give some other bonus (like the heal/free cast from whip). I would always use crushing shock or force pulse instead. The way to get good dps is to stack damage over times anyways so you really don't want to be doing spamming.

I was under the impression that force pulse is only better if you are using perfected asylum staff. Cliff racer does more damage and costs less otherwise (it also boosts your advanced species passive).

Yup, it's cheaper, more damaging & you get a regen and damage increase for slotting it. The preferred choice for PvE and with the increased speed it's def better for PvP as well

But Alendrin does have a point though: both the Magicka and Stamina versions only deal damage and nothing more. It would be nice if they received secondary effects that could give the Warden more utility (hopefully something that would make Wardens more desirable to have in PvE and PvP groups)

I don't disagree. All warden DPS abilities suffer from this problem.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · April 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Warden combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

3200 is too cheap for shimmering shield. It should at least do not return magicka back with such cost.
It is same overpowered as on live until morrowind relised, because 1200 magicka cost at the end instead 700 is almost same.
3 projectiles, Major heroism without cooldown, 1200 magicka cos...it's ridiculous.
Poor as hell stamina dragonknight should manage in Summerset: dragon scale for 4k, fragmented shield for 4k, volatile armor or dragonblood for healing passive and or resists or crap heal each 4k also.
Stamina warden - hallo pay2win, only shimmering shield per 1200 magicka and Green Lotus 3k per 20 seconds for crits on both bars and healing on each light or heavy atack. U need only base magicka and mag recovery stats to absolutl.y comfortable manage everything on warden. Ridiculous.
+ he have class burst stamina heal...
Change it please, Balance...

You heard of a skill called Harness Magicka? Cost 1000 more returns 1500 more. Oh an prtects you from all damage, not just projectiles. Maybe actually compare skills before crying "balance"

If stam builds could run harness as well as shuffle, we would definitely be crying "balance"

LeHarrt91 · April 2018

I would like to see an animation change to Cliff Racer, instead of vacuuming up a poor cliff racer from Vvardenfell and hurling it at an enemy from a portal in the sky (I get that its a bird diving to attack an enemy, but still). As now that its dodgeable, the long animation is to much and the 33% increased speed wont be enough.

Maybe make it summon from the players hand that they throw forward.

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Warden combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

3200 is too cheap for shimmering shield. It should at least do not return magicka back with such cost.
It is same overpowered as on live until morrowind relised, because 1200 magicka cost at the end instead 700 is almost same.
3 projectiles, Major heroism without cooldown, 1200 magicka cos...it's ridiculous.
Poor as hell stamina dragonknight should manage in Summerset: dragon scale for 4k, fragmented shield for 4k, volatile armor or dragonblood for healing passive and or resists or crap heal each 4k also.
Stamina warden - hallo pay2win, only shimmering shield per 1200 magicka and Green Lotus 3k per 20 seconds for crits on both bars and healing on each light or heavy atack. U need only base magicka and mag recovery stats to absolutl.y comfortable manage everything on warden. Ridiculous.
+ he have class burst stamina heal...
Change it please, Balance...

You heard of a skill called Harness Magicka? Cost 1000 more returns 1500 more. Oh an prtects you from all damage, not just projectiles. Maybe actually compare skills before crying "balance"

If stam builds could run harness as well as shuffle, we would definitely be crying "balance"

No more so then a Sorc running Harness and Empowered Ward. And way less then a Templar with Harness and BoL

arkansas_ESO · April 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Warden combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

3200 is too cheap for shimmering shield. It should at least do not return magicka back with such cost.
It is same overpowered as on live until morrowind relised, because 1200 magicka cost at the end instead 700 is almost same.
3 projectiles, Major heroism without cooldown, 1200 magicka cos...it's ridiculous.
Poor as hell stamina dragonknight should manage in Summerset: dragon scale for 4k, fragmented shield for 4k, volatile armor or dragonblood for healing passive and or resists or crap heal each 4k also.
Stamina warden - hallo pay2win, only shimmering shield per 1200 magicka and Green Lotus 3k per 20 seconds for crits on both bars and healing on each light or heavy atack. U need only base magicka and mag recovery stats to absolutl.y comfortable manage everything on warden. Ridiculous.
+ he have class burst stamina heal...
Change it please, Balance...

You heard of a skill called Harness Magicka? Cost 1000 more returns 1500 more. Oh an prtects you from all damage, not just projectiles. Maybe actually compare skills before crying "balance"

Since when did Harness give Major Heroism?

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Warden combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

3200 is too cheap for shimmering shield. It should at least do not return magicka back with such cost.
It is same overpowered as on live until morrowind relised, because 1200 magicka cost at the end instead 700 is almost same.
3 projectiles, Major heroism without cooldown, 1200 magicka cos...it's ridiculous.
Poor as hell stamina dragonknight should manage in Summerset: dragon scale for 4k, fragmented shield for 4k, volatile armor or dragonblood for healing passive and or resists or crap heal each 4k also.
Stamina warden - hallo pay2win, only shimmering shield per 1200 magicka and Green Lotus 3k per 20 seconds for crits on both bars and healing on each light or heavy atack. U need only base magicka and mag recovery stats to absolutl.y comfortable manage everything on warden. Ridiculous.
+ he have class burst stamina heal...
Change it please, Balance...

You heard of a skill called Harness Magicka? Cost 1000 more returns 1500 more. Oh an prtects you from all damage, not just projectiles. Maybe actually compare skills before crying "balance"

Since when did Harness give Major Heroism?

It doesn't but it's cheaper over all and protects you from everything. Aka balance

Anethum · April 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

You heard of a skill called Harness Magicka? Cost 1000 more returns 1500 more. Oh an prtects you from all damage, not just projectiles. Maybe actually compare skills before crying "balance"

l2p before comparing such skills.

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

diplomatt wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

You heard of a skill called Harness Magicka? Cost 1000 more returns 1500 more. Oh an prtects you from all damage, not just projectiles. Maybe actually compare skills before crying "balance"

l2p before comparing such skills.

LMAO, complaining about skills? I'm not complaining about any skills. I find Shimmering to be strong on my tank in PvP. I find it not worth slotting over Harness on my PvE DPS. I find that on my PvP StamDen/MagDen DPS that it is stitutionally I wish I had it or wish I wasn't wasting a slot on it.
- Sure its great against range enemies
- Its absolutely worthless against a StamDPS meaning a wasted a slot.
Personally from day to day find Shimmering to be worth while, and crap. That feeling is also while I think people crying nerf about Shimmering is so laughable. For example Corrupting Pollen would always be a useful debuff, Fletcher Flies would always be a useful DoT. Hell slotting Fletcher for no other reason than the 2% Weapon Damage would be more useful on my StamDen against other StamDPS.

By the way, if you actually want to Troll me, you should provide some substances to your put downs.... Substances
Shimmering - Cost 2189, 578 Return (Pre-Summerset 2189-3*578=455) (Summerset 3240-3*578=1506)
Harness Cost 4131, 1233 Retrun (4131-3*1233=432)
By the way 2189 is on my MagDen, my StamDen its 2384 (Pre-Summerset 2384-3*578=650)

Yet you....

diplomatt wrote: »

3200 is too cheap for shimmering shield. It should at least do not return magicka back with such cost.
It is same overpowered as on live until morrowind relised, because 1200 magicka cost at the end instead 700 is almost same.

Note: 1506 total cost is not the same as Live’s current 455 total cost

MinarasLaure · April 2018

3 more days and we'll see if zos really listen to their players base.
There are 8 pages here, but I have the feeling that nothing's gonna change in our animal companion skill tree....apart from fissure, we already know they gonna get rid of the stun.
Prove me wrong zos!

Hutch679 · April 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

- Swarm, buff to both morphs. Probably in the form of a buff as the damage is actually pretty strong. Though making it into a full AoE would be another option

I would disagree here. Swarm deals less than 1k per second compared to 2k+ from most ground placed aoes.

Growing swarm should be made a true aoe, I would still like to see it made like a placed hurricane effect (gains radius and damage over time) ad that would fit the name and usage of the ability.

Growing swarm: This morph casts the ability on yourself. The effect lasts 10 seconds over time and any enemy the swarm touches inflicts [X] magic damage over 10 seconds. This damage places an aoe effect on an enemy that will further spread to other enemies if they come in contact with them. Each time the effect is spread, the damage increases by 1/2/3/4% up to a maximum of 4/8/12/16%.

Radius on self: 8m
Radius on enemies: 4m

Go on. Hit agree or awesome. You know you want to.

I was thinking more along the lines of:

Growing swarm
Summon a cloud of insects at the target location (initially 6 meters radius) for 12 seconds. Every 3 seconds the swarm grows, gaining 2m radius and 50% more damage, up to a max of 12m radius and +150% damage

Pve (you) v. PvP (me) mindset. Why do you want another skill like winters revenge?

Lynx7386 · April 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

- Swarm, buff to both morphs. Probably in the form of a buff as the damage is actually pretty strong. Though making it into a full AoE would be another option

I would disagree here. Swarm deals less than 1k per second compared to 2k+ from most ground placed aoes.

Growing swarm should be made a true aoe, I would still like to see it made like a placed hurricane effect (gains radius and damage over time) ad that would fit the name and usage of the ability.

Growing swarm: This morph casts the ability on yourself. The effect lasts 10 seconds over time and any enemy the swarm touches inflicts [X] magic damage over 10 seconds. This damage places an aoe effect on an enemy that will further spread to other enemies if they come in contact with them. Each time the effect is spread, the damage increases by 1/2/3/4% up to a maximum of 4/8/12/16%.

Radius on self: 8m
Radius on enemies: 4m

Go on. Hit agree or awesome. You know you want to.

I was thinking more along the lines of:

Growing swarm
Summon a cloud of insects at the target location (initially 6 meters radius) for 12 seconds. Every 3 seconds the swarm grows, gaining 2m radius and 50% more damage, up to a max of 12m radius and +150% damage

Pve (you) v. PvP (me) mindset. Why do you want another skill like winters revenge?

Because whenever possible in trials, squishy dps do not want to be in melee range of most enemies. Would much rather have a powerful aoe that can be cast at range than one that requires me to get close to the bad guys

Lynx7386 · April 2018

All these mofos complaining about pvp are what keep ruining classes in this game. Zenimax is listening to the wrong people