PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Warden Balance

Waffennacht

mb10 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

xbobx wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Not saying I do know now 100% why such things happening, but I just saw @Alcast reading the pts patchnotes, at the deep fissure nerf, NO JOKE, he is saying " this skill is too strong and the nerf is good".

If those guys are in charge balancing and giving feedback to ZOS - good night. Did this guy every played a mag warden in pvp?

@Waffennacht @Hutch679 @MLGProPlayer we are dead haha

In my opinion, any ability that has high aoe damage, stun, aoe undodgeable dmg, aoe unblockable dmg is too strong yes.

That this is wardens only direct ability to get access to a stun in the class line is a whole other problem.

Cant agree here at all, this is just to simple reasoning. I see such answers quite often from my students though.

Just to give u some idea about what Im speaking and the reasoning behindert it:

U cant take that skill, put it in a box and dont look at the rest, not only warden skills, but any other skills.

We dont have the mobility of sorc. We dont have cloak to reset fights. We dont have an execute. We dont have an cheap instant burst stun ulti.

So, what im saying is, sorry, this is just dumb reasoning. Yes, such a skill u describing is strong, but, is it too strong on a class with the wardens kit? Thats totally different. Furthermore, saying that "no stun is a other problem" - no, exactly not. U build a class about defining skills, not about generalising them, because the are u are working with is always totally different from other classes...

Sorry, this is just cheap arguing -not only OM ESO, but in General.

wardens have an execute, would people please stop saying that. It may not be the one you want, but its there.

It's an Ultimate that you can activate maybe 4 times a minute and doesn't do much more damage than Impale or Wrath. That's a great execute.

4 times a minute is a lie lol
so basically you can regen 75 ult every 15 seconds?

(referring to pvp)

Heal, block, la/ha, is like 4.5 ult a sec, NB potion passive is approx 30 ult per min or .5 per sec? I think that alone is 75 ult every 15 sec.

Guess what else is totally insane on PTS?

Potion cool down enchantment + new jewelry trait + NB ult gain potion passive

Lol my friend, this is a warden thread. I have no idea why youre speaking about NB potion passive...

My mistake, I thought the comparison was between warden and NB where NBs can have one of the best CC + High damage abilities in game that can be used at least every 15 seconds while Magden loses its stun because having "high damage + CC is too powerful"

I didn't read it correctly, my bad.

My point was supposed to be the reasoning for Magden nerfs make 0 sense therefore there's 0 logical reason to support the changes

pywackit11

First off I need to say that I love playing my Warden. But they are a one trick pony in pvp anyone can dodge-roll scorch if they pay attention, in pve the damage is a bit lacking. Since scorch and the bird are both ranged my opinion is to give those 2 abilities a synergy with ranged damage. I think that would help both stamina and magic dps. Just my 2cents.

FThisIWantALongerNam

I understand that ZOS may have difficulty balancing Warden because PvP StamDen performs really well, and basically every other build under-performs, and it may be difficult to bring other builds in line with other classes, without making PvP stamDen over-perform.

However, if this is the case, ZOS need to communicate this to us. 12 months now, PvE stam/mag DD, and PvP magDD (undodgable pidgeon spam aside) have all under-performed, and we've had zero communication from ZOS about this, and nothing but nerfs thus far (Fletcher infection no longer direct damage, something warden stacks into, fissure losing its stun, etc etc. I'll concede that birds probably did need to be dodge-able, no complaints about that)

If you have a direction you want to take with the Warden, communicate with us. If you want them to continue to be bottom of the barrel, communicate this to us. It's the fact that the entire Warden player base has been crying about these issues for 12 months now, with not so much as a word from ZOS about it. People have kept their input constructive (for the most part) but it just feels like we're shouting into the void at this point.

Seraphayel

Why is it difficult to balance Magden because of Stamden? Just improve the skills they don't use: Flies, Magicka Cliffracer and the ice AoE. It's easy to improve Magden without even touching Stamden.

joaaocaampos

Froil wrote: »

For reference: Warden

Animal Companions
Deep Fissure (Scorch morph): This morph no longer stuns the closest enemy hit. It now applies Major Breach to all enemies hit for 5 seconds.
Subterranean Assault (Scorch morph): This morph no longer applies Major Breach to enemies hit – it only applies Major Fracture. The duration of Major Fracture has been reduced to 5 seconds, down from 10 seconds.

Burst vs CC. Damage vs Stun. Okay. Why don't you give that choice to the Wardens? Why remove stun completely?

What we have now:

Subterranean Assault (Scorch morph)

• Stir a group of Shalk that attack after 3 seconds, dealing Poison Damage to enemies in front of you. Enemies damaged are afflicted with Major Fracture, reducing their Physical Resistance for 5 seconds.

Deep Fissure (Scorch morph)

• Stir a group of Shalk that attack after 3 seconds, dealing Magic Damage to enemies in front of you. Enemies damaged are afflicted with Major Major Breach, reducing their Spell Resistance for 5 seconds.

I have a solution.

You can add the stun in one of the two morphs and remove the "after 3 seconds" from the other morph. This is "Damage vs Stun". Also, this 3-second delay is tedious.

FThisIWantALongerNam

Seraphayel wrote: »

Why is it difficult to balance Magden because of Stamden? Just improve the skills they don't use: Flies, Magicka Cliffracer and the ice AoE. It's easy to improve Magden without even touching Stamden.

Was moreso trying to pre-empt some of the possible explanations as to why the class hasn't been touched in a positive way since launch, as some of the recommended changes here could have that effect.

I agree though, there are plenty of things they could do to bring their performance in line with other classes in PvE, without making PvP stamDen over perform.

Biggest recommendation I'd have would be to give them a group damage passive. Every other class has a group minor buff unique to their class, encouraging diversity to some degree (sorcery, prophecy, savagery, brutality) yet warden DD stands as the only class that can provide no such buff to their group. This makes them harder to justify using in PvE content than any other class, even if they could keep up with other class DPS (which magden really struggles to)

JohnStorm

@ZOS_GinaBruno here are my thoughts about magicka warden DPS in end-game PVE.

Magicka warden is currently only viable if the bear ultimate is being used. High dps numbers are impossible to achieve without it as wardens don't have any spectacular damage abilities.
- Winter's revenge is a weaker ground DoT than blockade and the utility from it is mostly useless in group PVE.
- Fletcher infection is the weakest DoT the warden's have and it has no secondary effects whatsoever (also let's not forget it's a purely single target ability!).
- Screaming cliff racer is a spammable that does nice damage but it's secondary effect is meaningless since you have to be close to the bosses in order to get group buffs and heals, and also to reapply blockade.
- Deep Fissure is a nice skill for trash packs but not worth using on boss fights since it's expensive and hard to fit in a rotation.
- Northern storm is only ever slotted for the passive 8% max magicka it gives. It is outdpsed by destro ultimate so it's not worth actually using.
- Eternal Guardian has great single target damage and is cheap, but that's where the pros end and the cons are plentiful. First off it has to be double barred, which is understandable since it's a pet just like the sorcerer's pets. Second, it has no AoE damage which makes it useless in trash packs. Third, the secondary effect is the BIGGEST LIE in any tooltip of a skill. "Bear respawns when killed", no it doesn't.... YOU ARE FORCED to recast it and that completely ruins your rotation and your dps plummets. Fourth, the bear has the same stupid AI that all pets have so sometimes it disappears (maybe it goes off to it's cave to sleep), sometimes it decides not to attack any target and refuse commands unti it is recast, and sometimes it just decides to switch aggro on it's own for no reason at all...


Now let's talk about the group buffs and utility it brings to the table. Oh wait, there aren't any!
-Magicka sorcerer: liquid lightning synergy, minor prophecy, minor intellect, great concussion uptime, negate ultimate, atro ultimate (major berserk)
-Magicka nightblade: funnel health heal, minor savagery
-Magicka templar: minor sorcery, heals, shards synergy, fast resurrect speed, ultimate with a synergy and major maim
-Magicka dk: engulfing flames, minor brutality, standard synergy

-Magicka warden: ... can apply chilled to enemies ... major protecion (if bear is not used)

The only way a magicka warden can help out the group and not be completely selfish and useless is if they use Master Architect since the bear ultimate is cheap and warden's have built in ulti generation. But magicka nightblades can do this as well without the need for a pet and they do a lot more damage than wardens.

Magicka wardens need to be seriously buffed if they are to be expected to be played on a competitive level. My suggestions are:
- Buff winter's revenge damage or give it a synergy of some sort like the sorc's lightning flood.
- Buff fletcher's infection damage and give it a secondary effect like applying minor breach to the target or giving the group a minor buff.
- Replace the screaming cliff racer's damage boost from range with splash damage to 2 additional targets when the bird hits the target
- Buff Northern storm's damage so it's actually worth using instead of destruction staff ultimate.
- Give the bear cleave damage please! Why do sorcs get a pet which is not an ultimate and it has both great single target and AoE damage, and wardens get squat? Also, make the morph effect work properly! "Bear respawns when killed." != you recast the bear when it is killed.

kojou

I have been learning the Warden lately just to see how they are in general and after looking in PTS, and here is my feedback on the changes:

Animal Companions:

• Deep Fissure (Scorch morph): This morph no longer stuns the closest enemy hit. It now applies Major Breach to all enemies hit for 5 seconds.

This change doesn't impact PvE, but you took away the most important stun for PvP. I would like it if you gave Magicka Wardens another stun to replace this, but I suppose they can use Destructive Reach like every other class without a stun...

• Screaming Cliff Racer: Increased the travel speed of the Cliff Racer by approximately 33% to make up for the fact that it cannot be dodged.

Better for PvP... no difference for PvE.

• Subterranean Assault (Scorch morph): This morph no longer applies Major Breach to enemies hit – it only applies Major Fracture. The duration of Major Fracture has been reduced to 5 seconds, down from 10 seconds.

Kind of a pointless nerf IMO. It doesn't really hurt anything on my Stamina Warden.

Green Balance

• Bursting Vines (Nature’s Grasp morph): This morph now grants 10 Ultimate when used on an ally under 60% Health, and added a 4 second cooldown.
• Nature’s Grasp: This ability and the Nature’s Embrace morph now grant 3 Ultimate when the healing over time completes.

More War Horns for Warden healers... I don't think Ultimate generation was ever an issue for Wardens, but I guess something needed to be done to make the skill more appealing. Right now it is just a novelty for traveling around cities like Spiderman. Maybe you could make a morph that pulls allies to you so you could get people out of puddles in dungeons, but that would also get abused, so I don't know...

Winter’s Embrace

• Arctic Wind: Increased the initial heal done by this ability and its morphs to 12% of your Max Health from 10%.

I never used this skill before because it looked too weak to do anything and Wardens already have a whole skill line for healing with better options. I would rather you made the damage on Arctic Blast scale off magicka and spell damage to make it "slottable" for DPS, and make the other morph (Polar Wind) apply magicka steal, turn ice based light attacks into a taunt, or some other useful thing so it could actually be used with Frost Staff Tanking.

• Crystallized Shield: Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs to 3240 Magicka from 2701.

This was a needed change. The skill was too powerful for how cheap it was. I would have eliminated the Magicka return, but this works too.

• Frozen Gate: This ability and its morphs now deal Frost Damage to the enemy when the trap is triggered.

I guess it adds one more way to proc Winterborn in PvP for those that are running that set... I didn't think this skill was in need of buffing anyway. Its already very useful for Keep assault/defense.

I just wanted to add one more thing as a general Warden feedback:

The consensus of the people I play with is that ZOS had a long time to think of ways to buff Magicka Warden's for raid DPS and that if they were going to do it then it would already have been done. I will hold out my opinion until after a couple rounds in PTS updates, but my opinion is that for the amount of effort one has to spend getting the rotation on a magicka Warden down there isn't very much reward. I can spend the same amount of time getting proficient on another class (with an easier rotation) and get better results. Working Deep Fissure into the rotation and keeping up DoTs that don't line up at all with each other should yield higher DPS than it does. One QoL change could be making Winters Revenge 16 seconds and Growing Swarm 8 seconds (Spread faster and line up with Blockade). If Arctic Blast is buffed it should be changed to 16 seconds as well.

This would give Wardens 2 pairs of DoTs which would line up with each other. The rotation could be something like:

Deep Fissure > Blockade > Swarm > Deep Fissure > Winters Revenge > Arctic Blast > Repeat (Deep Fissure > Force Pulse 2 times or Deep Fissure > Heavy Attack + Force Pulse) until one of the pairs of DoTs needs to be refreshed.

Having pairs of DoTs that line up would be huge for making Magicka Warden more accessible IMO.

_Ahala_

I really hope Zos has some buffs planned for Magden specifically, because as it stands summerset is going to leave them unacceptably bad for duels and solo pvp while leaving them near the bottom for pve dps... are we really supposed to exist solely as healers and defile bots?

Nethelius

JohnStorm wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno here are my thoughts about magicka warden DPS in end-game PVE.

Magicka warden is currently only viable if the bear ultimate is being used. High dps numbers are impossible to achieve without it as wardens don't have any spectacular damage abilities.

I disagree with some of what you have said lets go down the list...

-

Winter's revenge is a weaker ground DoT than blockade and the utility from it is mostly useless in group PVE.

- What? The damage delve is higher than blockade of storms this is like saying hail of arrows is useless because it does not provide anything other than damage only Winter's Revenge does, it gets a double passive bonus to damage just from running blockade of storms as well. +6% Magic and Frost damage from Piercing Cold and +8% from ancient knowledge, the two combined are amazing. Chilled might not be the most amazing status effect compared to burning and concussed but that is the point of ice magic...It snares and weakens.
-

Fletcher infection is the weakest DoT the warden's have and it has no secondary effects whatsoever (also let's not forget it's a purely single target ability!).

- I actually disagree with this one the most on a personal basis, Fetcher Infection is the largest single target damage over time skill in the game, secondary effect? It is a DoT that hits very hard? Is that not enough?
- Screaming cliff racer is a spammable that does nice damage but it's secondary effect is meaningless since you have to be close to the bosses in order to get group buffs and heals, and also to reapply blockade.
- Fair complaint, however it is a spammable that is intended to be used from great distance, even at max blockade range you do see some of that damage bonus at 17m away, I think the skill is great as is as it gives warden a better long range option than spamming Pulse or Elemental weapon. However, I will admit I dislike the delay I do like that it still heals for 1.2k every cast.
-

Deep Fissure is a nice skill for trash packs but not worth using on boss fights since it's expensive and hard to fit in a rotation.

- I agree with you on all points.
-

Northern storm is only ever slotted for the passive 8% max magicka it gives. It is outdpsed by destro ultimate so it's not worth actually using.

- PvE side of things I do agree, it does have its uses running front bar with Destro back bar for encounters that are not bear friendly. PvP I quite like the skill, good damage with solid protection.

-

Eternal Guardian has great single target damage and is cheap, but that's where the pros end and the cons are plentiful. First off it has to be double barred, which is understandable since it's a pet just like the sorcerer's pets. Second, it has no AoE damage which makes it useless in trash packs. Third, the secondary effect is the BIGGEST LIE in any tooltip of a skill. "Bear respawns when killed", no it doesn't.... YOU ARE FORCED to recast it and that completely ruins your rotation and your dps plummets. Fourth, the bear has the same stupid AI that all pets have so sometimes it disappears (maybe it goes off to it's cave to sleep), sometimes it decides not to attack any target and refuse commands unti it is recast, and sometimes it just decides to switch aggro on it's own for no reason at all...

- Double barring is a problem for an ultimate skill, no way around that. That said I do not have a better suggestion, the damage this skill outputs is phenomenal, I have seen the execute crit upwards of 92,000 damage. The bear does have AoE damage but it is a problem in that of itself, the heavy attack (Where it stands on hind legs) stuns and deals area damage, however it only takes something moving 1m in any direction to miss this attack, I have lost SO MUCH DPS by this bear heavy attack that I despise watching it stand there wasting time with that animation more than any other class related issue, this heavy attack needs to be changed to some kind of better tracking attack like a ranged roar or ANYTHING ELSE. The rotation interruption is a massive problem as it absolutely ruins rotations. As for the pet disappearing, I do not notice this issue much in PvE but it happens all the time in PvP especially battleground maps, you have to be on top of telling your pet when to attack and whent o be passive but there are certain terrains it just will not follow you over.

"Now let's talk about the group buffs and utility it brings to the table. Oh wait, there aren't any!"

Easy access to minor int and endurance, while not exactly great for trial runs where people should be on potions this can help with pledges and pugs. (Like you pointed out sorcs can give minor int, we have both.)
Major Defile, while there are not many situations where this has its uses in PvE healing still exists on enemies and having access to skills with defile is nice.
With Nightblade you pointed out funnel health and savagery, while we do not have access to savagery Wardens have access to the strongest heal over times in the entire game, A tank casting Polar Wind already provides more healing than funnel health. Natures Embrace can heal upwards of 30,000 damage in 10 seconds (Highest delve I have of this skill is 39,523 health over 10) and we have Budding Seeds for synergy.
Templars, the Wardens rival in support, while we do not have minor sorcery or their resurrect passive we do heal on par with Templars and as far as ultimate synergy goes, Warden has the best ultimate up time in the game, even more so with 4.0, if you need major maim and cannot use frozen device? equip Thurvokun but there is nothing a Templar can do to even get remotely close to our ult gen.

To recap
Major Heroism, Major Berserk, Major maim, major defile, major protection, Major resolve, major ward, Minor toughness, minor protection, minor life steal, free self-purge, chilled (Minor maim) everywhere, Major & Minor endurance, minor intellect, minor evasion
The only class off the top of my head that gets a timed major prophecy buff.
An ultimate that generates more ultimate, HoT that generates 6 ult every 10 seconds, animal skills generate ultimate, and major herism.
Access to Major Mending without having to perform a heavy attack

Magicka wardens need to be seriously buffed if they are to be expected to be played on a competitive level. My suggestions are:
- Buff winter's revenge damage or give it a synergy of some sort like the sorc's lightning flood.
- Buff fletcher's infection damage and give it a secondary effect like applying minor breach to the target or giving the group a minor buff.
- Replace the screaming cliff racer's damage boost from range with splash damage to 2 additional targets when the bird hits the target
- Buff Northern storm's damage so it's actually worth using instead of destruction staff ultimate.
- Give the bear cleave damage please! Why do sorcs get a pet which is not an ultimate and it has both great single target and AoE damage, and wardens get squat? Also, make the morph effect work properly! "Bear respawns when killed." != you recast the bear when it is killed.

-
-It is a higher damage blockade with snare and chilled, why?
-Highest single target DOT in the game that is not a monster set, I would love minor breach, but why?
-What you described is force pulse, if they were to change it the effect should be unique.
-Northern storm passively boosts damage and it provides major protection, this is why you would run it over a straight DPS skill, it is utility.
-Would love to see cleave damage on the bear, most of all I want a new heavy attack that has to be dodged or interrupted that doesn't miss 99% of the time due pet AI incompetence.

Nethelius

Feedback regarding the status of Warden from a Magicka perspective

Animal Companions
Deep Fissure (Scorch morph): This morph no longer stuns the closest enemy hit. It now applies Major Breach to all enemies hit for 5 seconds.

I personally like this change, it allows for more penetration to be setup and clears the way for high damage burst, I dislike that there is now no class stun outside of ultimate (Bear heavy attack or Winter's embrace ultimate morph) but viewing the skill like Proximity detonation that requires proper setup for a big pay off I feel like this has more potential than just a stun.

Green Balance

Bursting Vines (Nature’s Grasp morph): This morph now grants 10 Ultimate when used on an ally under 60% Health, and added a 4 second cooldown.
Nature’s Grasp: This ability and the Nature’s Embrace morph now grant 3 Ultimate when the healing over time completes

Great addition, I already loved this skill for its heal over time or burst heal capability and adding ultimate generation to that just makes it even worthwhile.

Winter’s Embrace

Arctic Wind: Increased the initial heal done by this ability and its morphs to 12% of your Max Health from 10%.
Crystallized Shield: Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs to 3240 Magicka from 2701.
Frozen Gate: This ability and its morphs now deal Frost Damage to the enemy when the trap is triggered.

Arctic Wind is a skill I never saw the value in slotting, either moph is lackluster in healing done unless you are running a very specific build tailored to maximum health, the damage is also negligible from Arctic Blast and provides low value for a skill slot.
Crystallized Shield being increased in cost to make it not refund greater than the cost of the shield is a fair change for such a powerful defensive skill, this is fair.
Frozen Gate having more damage (Highest hit I saw PTS was 10.6k) is a great change, this skill has an arming time of 1.5 seconds where as fissure is 3, you can easily setup unsuspecting targets for high burst using this skill to pull them out of their group and the increased damage element added a slight value to this.

The issues

Eternal Guardian This is a big one, my greatest complaint after having been playing Warden for a year. In all content the Eternal Guardian has the capability to perform well on its own but the same issues with this skill have persisted since Vvardenfells launch.
The respawn effect - this interrupts rotations and plummets the Wardens DPS.
The heavy swipe - great damage, great AOE damage even however I need my target to be utterly comatose when he stands up to be hit by this attack, I am moving around all the time in combat and my targets move with me as a result getting this attack to land (Which takes THREE SECONDS) is impossible unless my target is heavily crowd controlled. Again a massive issue causing my DPS to sink and sink some more while the bear catches back up to my target resulting in this ultimate skill to not be contributing to my DPS at all for that period.

Hutch679

Nethelius wrote: »

Feedback regarding the status of Warden from a Magicka perspective

Animal Companions
Deep Fissure (Scorch morph): This morph no longer stuns the closest enemy hit. It now applies Major Breach to all enemies hit for 5 seconds.

I personally like this change, it allows for more penetration to be setup and clears the way for high damage burst, I dislike that there is now no class stun outside of ultimate (Bear heavy attack or Winter's embrace ultimate morph) but viewing the skill like Proximity detonation that requires proper setup for a big pay off I feel like this has more potential than just a stun.

Green Balance

Bursting Vines (Nature’s Grasp morph): This morph now grants 10 Ultimate when used on an ally under 60% Health, and added a 4 second cooldown.
Nature’s Grasp: This ability and the Nature’s Embrace morph now grant 3 Ultimate when the healing over time completes

Great addition, I already loved this skill for its heal over time or burst heal capability and adding ultimate generation to that just makes it even worthwhile.

Winter’s Embrace

Arctic Wind: Increased the initial heal done by this ability and its morphs to 12% of your Max Health from 10%.
Crystallized Shield: Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs to 3240 Magicka from 2701.
Frozen Gate: This ability and its morphs now deal Frost Damage to the enemy when the trap is triggered.

Arctic Wind is a skill I never saw the value in slotting, either moph is lackluster in healing done unless you are running a very specific build tailored to maximum health, the damage is also negligible from Arctic Blast and provides low value for a skill slot.
Crystallized Shield being increased in cost to make it not refund greater than the cost of the shield is a fair change for such a powerful defensive skill, this is fair.
Frozen Gate having more damage (Highest hit I saw PTS was 10.6k) is a great change, this skill has an arming time of 1.5 seconds where as fissure is 3, you can easily setup unsuspecting targets for high burst using this skill to pull them out of their group and the increased damage element added a slight value to this.

The issues

Eternal Guardian This is a big one, my greatest complaint after having been playing Warden for a year. In all content the Eternal Guardian has the capability to perform well on its own but the same issues with this skill have persisted since Vvardenfells launch.
The respawn effect - this interrupts rotations and plummets the Wardens DPS.
The heavy swipe - great damage, great AOE damage even however I need my target to be utterly comatose when he stands up to be hit by this attack, I am moving around all the time in combat and my targets move with me as a result getting this attack to land (Which takes THREE SECONDS) is impossible unless my target is heavily crowd controlled. Again a massive issue causing my DPS to sink and sink some more while the bear catches back up to my target resulting in this ultimate skill to not be contributing to my DPS at all for that period.

You lost at liking the deep fissure change. Didn't even bother reading the rest because it shows how disconnected you are from what warden needs. Mag Warden has to have a stun of some sort beyond permafrost....

Nethelius

You lost at liking the deep fissure change. Didn't even bother reading the rest because it shows how disconnected you are from what warden needs. Mag Warden has to have a stun of some sort beyond permafrost....

I personally like this change, it allows for more penetration to be setup and clears the way for high damage burst, I dislike that there is now no class stun outside of ultimate (Bear heavy attack or Winter's embrace ultimate morph) but viewing the skill like Proximity detonation that requires proper setup for a big pay off I feel like this has more potential than just a stun.

They do have a stun beyond permafrost, had you read the rest you would know that. Are either reliable or strong choices? No. But I stand by saying having more DPS added to one of the Wardens highest burst skills is not a negative. I support the argument for needing a class stun.

Maura_Neysa

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

You know... most things written here are mostly bout 'dem pvp-ers'
but as said before... there is not much screaming about this. And that aint because there is no reason for it... Ots because you lot made even trying to use wardens so hard, unrewarding and downright obsolete, that noone wants to even play them.
So here is my piece... what could one change. And am PvE person...
So, one thing needs to be done before we approach what could change. And that is what mag wardens run around that other classes similar to them hold, which are Sorcs and DKs from perspective of being element specific and unique in the matter

• DKs run around fire damage.
• Fire staff bonus is 8% more single target damage.
• Heavy attacks with fire staff also deal more damage on single target
• Blockade deals more damage on burning targets
• They have fire damage bonuses and burning effect extensions
• Engulfing flames provide further 10% fire damage
• Multiple powerful dots based on heavily buffed fire damage.
• Sorcs Run around lightning.
• Lightning staff bonus is 8% more Aoe DMG
• Heavy attacks with lightning deal 108% or so aoe dmg around the main target
• Blockade sets off-balance giving a chance for a great damage boost
• They also have dual execution ability from both passive and mage's fury
• There are at least 4 Abilities that sorc's bonus lightning damage passive benefit from
• Their lightning based skills deal much higher damage
• Very powerful cheap ultimates
• Wardens run around ice damage
• Ice staff has 0 damage bonus passives
• Their class ice damage buff of 6% is only ever so useful on 2 abilities they hold. one of them ultimate
• Blockade Immobilizes. No damage potential from it
• Mediocre damage ultimates

MagWardens are not bad only because of their abilities alone
they are also bad because they run around an elemental damage that reaps little to 0 bonuses from being used.
Ice staves have very little dps utility. And as destruction staves of an element a class is heavily affected by, they should also have some efficient damage bonus
For instance, from a fancy perspective of what ice magic is...

• Give Heavy ice attacks 6% more crit damage.
• Give ice staff ancient knowledge bonus for all single traget abilities to deal 6% more crit damage
• Make Ice staff cause blocking cost magicka, a default thing without need of using a passive for it.
• Perhaps even make destructive ice touch have the same passive as ancient knowledge has, for being slotted but a bit less effective, removing it from Ancient knowledge

And then the class abilities

• Make Impaling shards scale from magicka and spell damage by default and make the winter's revenge deal say 80% (Changeable number)more damage to chars under 25% as a similar story to steel tornado
• Make Crystalized slab scale from max magicka and spell damage and increase the base damage of it at least a bit

This is what I think anyways. People might get some better ideas how to and where to correct me.
But I firmly believe that ice staff is much to blame for warden's mediocrity along its lack of proper ice skills

OMG No, your basic premise that, like DK and Sorc, Wardens are built around Elemental Damage is wrong. Wardens are built around Magic damage, just like Templars. Fissure, Screaming, Swarm, 3 of 4 damage skills deal Magic damage. And just like Templar, they have 1 skill thats Elemental damage. I would love to be able to make a Frost Damage build, but Frost Damage definitely can not have damage on par with Fire and Lighting and keep its CC. That would be disastrous in Cryodiil

Impaling Shards (Gripping Shards) is a Tanking skill, it should definitely continue to scale off of max Health. Winter's Revenge morph, really an execute on a ground placed AoE? While that would work in PvE thats just a middle finger to PvP players.

Crystallized Slab, PvP world already cries nerf on this skill, in large part because its so effective at shutting down Ranged DPS. Making it a 70K Shield for DPS, yes 60K is what its worth on my Tank, would absolutely not go over well in the PvP world. Its also isn't a very useful skill on PvE at all. Harness Magic is much better defensively, and Heroism is the only reason to run it. If there are any changes to this shield, it should be to convert Crystallized Slab into an offensive weapon. Something like Flames of Oblivion. You could also add Engulfing's buff here, to boost the Frost Damage.

Nethelius

If there are any changes to this sill it should be to convert Crystallized Slab into an offensive weapon. Something like Flames of Oblivion. You could also add Engulfing's buff here, to boost the Frost Damage.

I know it would make it dangerously close to mimicking the offensive psijic orb passive, but I think it would be nice to see something along the lines of "Any shields that remain at the end of the duration turn into an icy bolt and fires at a nearby enemy dealing X% more damage per remaining shield"

Maura_Neysa

Nethelius wrote: »

If there are any changes to this sill it should be to convert Crystallized Slab into an offensive weapon. Something like Flames of Oblivion. You could also add Engulfing's buff here, to boost the Frost Damage.

I know it would make it dangerously close to mimicking the offensive psijic orb passive, but I think it would be nice to see something along the lines of "Any shields that remain at the end of the duration turn into an icy bolt and fires at a nearby enemy dealing X% more damage per remaining shield"

I very much like this idea. Offensively it cost the full amount, defensively its cheaper, its nice counter. I feel like thats fairly unique from the Psijic as well as from Flames of Oblivion, because its duel role. It would also (with testing) be something to compete with Shimmering Shield too, I think. Also very interesting thought, to run Harness for the full shield, or Crystallized for more damage and limited shield
Alternatively, have it guarantee to apply the Chilled Status effect, though I like the damage idea more.

mb10

LOL wow this thread was on page FOUR of the PTS forums...

No one cares about Warden lmao let alone a Magicka one.


There's only a few of us left guys/gals
We all seem to agree on the same things pretty much so hopefully see some changes in PTS for Monday...

Vaoh

mb10 wrote: »

LOL wow this thread was on page FOUR of the PTS forums...

No one cares about Warden lmao let alone a Magicka one.


There's only a few of us left guys/gals
We all seem to agree on the same things pretty much so hopefully see some changes in PTS for Monday...

@mb10

Dragonknight balance thread:
• 5.0K views
• 333 comments

Nightblade balance thread:
• 4.8K views
• 332 comments

Sorcerer balance thread:
• 4.5K views
• 217 comments

Templar balance thread:
• 4.9K views
• 276 comments

Warden balance thread:
• 3.1K views
• 167 comments

Tbh, not even surprised. Legit no one cares about Warden. Everyone just gave up.

Earrindo

After a year of reading Warden threads, I wish I could say I am surprised.

Warden threads have two flavors; Wardens need a buff, or Wardens are P2W or some garbage like that.

I cannot understand why Zenimax is having such a difficult time with this. They are clearly choosing to pursue a more traditional MMO business model of releasing an expansion, then with the next expansion wrapping the previous expansions into the base game.
They may be doing a bit of a clunky job of it at the moment, but that's what this is.

All the big MMOs release classes with expansions occasionally. Now that we are transitioning to a more traditional model, I just cannot fathom why Wardens are being so thoroughly left behind.
After reading all the aforementioned Warden threads, nobody is asking for the moon here. They just want Wardens to be on par with other classes and even, heaven forbid, provide some unique functionality or offer some unique gameplay and build options.

I can only hope Zenimax, or really @ZOS_Wrobel will tend to the Warden class and at the very least share their plans with us regarding the future of Wardens.

LeHarrt91

Had to go to page 12 of recent discussion to find this -_-

Skander

Well, warden can use more ice dmg passives that's for scure. Like, for exemple, even getting a 10% (from the 6 of the passive) on ice dmg woudn't even get them close to shock and fire damage


Fire has just dmg (burning) and melts vampire (magicka dk do 25% more dmg to them)
Shock grants minor vulnerability (8% more dmg on target)
Ice grants Minor maim (chilled) but that as you can't see won't help you much on dealing dmg to someone.


They could give something called like:

"piercing cold" that works like mauls and maces, penetrating enemy resintances

MinarasLaure

Magden dps wise is a dead horse, while is a good healer and a good tank, which means they won't do anything about it.
Stamden dps is acceptable in pve and op in pvp, it's a good tank....which means they won't do anything about it.
Im surprised they even bothered opening this thread tbh.

Seraphayel

Vaoh wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

LOL wow this thread was on page FOUR of the PTS forums...

No one cares about Warden lmao let alone a Magicka one.


There's only a few of us left guys/gals
We all seem to agree on the same things pretty much so hopefully see some changes in PTS for Monday...

@mb10

Dragonknight balance thread:
• 5.0K views
• 333 comments

Nightblade balance thread:
• 4.8K views
• 332 comments

Sorcerer balance thread:
• 4.5K views
• 217 comments

Templar balance thread:
• 4.9K views
• 276 comments

Warden balance thread:
• 3.1K views
• 167 comments

Tbh, not even surprised. Legit no one cares about Warden. Everyone just gave up.

Well with zero ZOS feedback or the acknowledgement that Magicka Wardens are fairly weak I am not surprised. In the end it just looks like ZOS doesn't care at all. It's rather like they mock Warden players with things like the from 10% to 12% "buff" on Arctic Wind.

Joy_Division

Vaoh wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

LOL wow this thread was on page FOUR of the PTS forums...

No one cares about Warden lmao let alone a Magicka one.


There's only a few of us left guys/gals
We all seem to agree on the same things pretty much so hopefully see some changes in PTS for Monday...

@mb10

Dragonknight balance thread:
• 5.0K views
• 333 comments

Nightblade balance thread:
• 4.8K views
• 332 comments

Sorcerer balance thread:
• 4.5K views
• 217 comments

Templar balance thread:
• 4.9K views
• 276 comments

Warden balance thread:
• 3.1K views
• 167 comments

Tbh, not even surprised. Legit no one cares about Warden. Everyone just gave up.

Pretty much.

ZOS built it conceptually, with a tanking, healing, and DPS line, but how much testing went into see how these three lines worked together in competitive environments, particularly in PvP? So we've had a stam warden that has always been too strong in PvP and magicka Warden that has always been too weak in PvP and DPS lacking in PvE, and while I think Warden healers are good for PvP, Templars are still better and can do more things for PVE raids.

After one year, I think it's pretty clear to people who play wardens a lot what needs to be tweaked, reformed, and changed. It's very discouraging to see nothing of the sort.

Tannus15

At this point I'm hoping that the first set of patch notes was just to lay the foundation for the next set of changes, but I despair that the worst PvE dps in the game literally only got nerfs.

That's sad.

I wish there was more communication around whatever plan ZoS have for addressing these issues.

FThisIWantALongerNam

I also feel that's been Zenimax's biggest failing. Not the state Warden is in or how it performs, but their lack of communication for the direction they wish to take with it.

Whether they want them to perform on par with other classes in future patches, or whether they want them to be nothing more than PvE healers/tanks, and PvP stamDDs as it is now, then they need to communicate this. The lack of communication has caused most players to simply give up on the class and play something more reliable.

Hutch679

Anyone wanna make a wager there will be no changes to warden this week on the PTS?

JobooAGS

Hutch679 wrote: »

Anyone wanna make a wager there will be no changes to warden this week on the PTS?

Id wager as the 2nd pts week has no balance changes usually, 3rd week may be different

JobooAGS

JobooAGS wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Anyone wanna make a wager there will be no changes to warden this week on the PTS?

Id wager as the 2nd pts week has no balance changes usually, 3rd week may be different

Just bug fixes

Hutch679

Surprise, surprise. No changes to warden this week. Highly doubt ZOS even reads this thread.