Something Needs To Be Done About Defile

IAVITNI · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What would you people think about giving medium armor agility passive a second function that reduced healdebuffs by 30 to 50% in effectiveness?

I think defiles are too strong against all builds which don't have access to shields as a main defence or which don't spec everything into healing.

Just giving medium armor a strong counter is unfair towards magicka builds and would also make medium armor the choice for each and all builds.
Right now the decision for medium or heavy on a stamspec really depends on your playstyle and your class.
Heavy needs less reactive defence to survive but often forces you to have a more active sustain via heavy attacks.
Medium has more access to active defence which can be superior but also inferior to HA resistances while having less need for active sustain through regen passives.

The healing is pretty balanced between the two.
Medium can get a burst heal with rally as you have shuffle for snare removal while HA takes less damage and gives you more healing by default you are limited to FM on most builds however to fight snares.

Giving medium much better healing would make heavy inferior across the board imo.

I don´t think so to be honest.
You´re looking too much at medium + heavy stamina builds here and don´t take into account for heavy magica builds too much. Also magica atleast has always the option to combat defile via healing ward (i do think defile durations need to be looked at).
The only builds that get absolutely hardcountered by defile (imo) are stam builds - and buffing medium in that regard would atleast create the option to combat that.
Given how much heavy is still prefered for most builds i don´t think it would create too much issues but that´s just a gutfeeling.

Flatout weakening defile instead of helping the builds suffering the most from it is from my perspective undesireable for current group synergies and mechanics.
Healing without defile or without befoul cp can feel equally unbalanced as defile currently.

I think you mean Magplars here. MagDKs will also struggle against Major Defile. I'd argue just as much if not more than stam since Vigor/Rally+Dodge Roll is more efficient and easier to use than Burning Ember/Inhale+Coagulating+Block.

Ishammael · April 2018

The CP star for healing reduction should scale like the +healing ones. I.e. many points only gets you a few percent.

Also, LOL at all the people defending the current state of befoul. Defile is too easy to apply at 100% uptime -- snipe, reverb, DUROKs, weapon enchants, that AOE warden skill -- and the CP star way overtuned. Major + Minor + CP star is something like >50% heal redux. That's crazy

Vapirko · April 2018

Absolutely right. There’s honestly no reason for the CP star at all. If anything it should scale more like the siphoned star. Also that dragon bones set that spits out the defile AOE that’s like the size of an entire resource tower floor. It’s insane.

Murador178 · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What would you people think about giving medium armor agility passive a second function that reduced healdebuffs by 30 to 50% in effectiveness?

I think defiles are too strong against all builds which don't have access to shields as a main defence or which don't spec everything into healing.

Just giving medium armor a strong counter is unfair towards magicka builds and would also make medium armor the choice for each and all builds.
Right now the decision for medium or heavy on a stamspec really depends on your playstyle and your class.
Heavy needs less reactive defence to survive but often forces you to have a more active sustain via heavy attacks.
Medium has more access to active defence which can be superior but also inferior to HA resistances while having less need for active sustain through regen passives.

The healing is pretty balanced between the two.
Medium can get a burst heal with rally as you have shuffle for snare removal while HA takes less damage and gives you more healing by default you are limited to FM on most builds however to fight snares.

Giving medium much better healing would make heavy inferior across the board imo.

I don´t think so to be honest.
You´re looking too much at medium + heavy stamina builds here and don´t take into account for heavy magica builds too much. Also magica atleast has always the option to combat defile via healing ward (i do think defile durations need to be looked at).
The only builds that get absolutely hardcountered by defile (imo) are stam builds - and buffing medium in that regard would atleast create the option to combat that.
Given how much heavy is still prefered for most builds i don´t think it would create too much issues but that´s just a gutfeeling.

Flatout weakening defile instead of helping the builds suffering the most from it is from my perspective undesireable for current group synergies and mechanics.
Healing without defile or without befoul cp can feel equally unbalanced as defile currently.

medium armor is dead next patch - u will die instant to one runecage

And besides flipping nightblades it was even bad before

Joy_Division · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

What would you people think about giving medium armor agility passive a second function that reduced healdebuffs by 30 to 50% in effectiveness?

I think not all of us main a class that doesn't care about defile because they use shields.

technohic · April 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

If purge is meant to be the answer, they should really make efficient purge a little more efficient, although it really doesn't cost that much than templars extended ritual but for only 2 debuffs.

Still think efficient purge should be self only and about the cost of extended ritual so it becomes to templars ritual what silver leash is becoming to DK chains. Then cleanse stays the same cost but purges group mates.

Problem is though; I run a stamplar and I can tell you even with 5 negative effects removed on 1 cast, you don't always get the one off you that you need. Plenty if you have a ton of magicka to cast it more than once, not so much for stam classes. Its why efficient purge works in groups with more than one person hitting it with plenty of magicka.

They could create priorities for purges. Majors > Poisons > Minors etc. than have Defile > Maim > Fracture etc.

Not ideal as I think the randomness is part of what balances purge but could be an option. Since it's a lazy balance option, sadly I see it being a possibility.

Yeah but what you want would depend on what you are running. If I am running my magplar with extended, I want defile gone first. If I am on my magblade, I would want mark gone first and that would be very specific to that class, followed by snares.

Murador178 · April 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What would you people think about giving medium armor agility passive a second function that reduced healdebuffs by 30 to 50% in effectiveness?

I think not all of us main a class that doesn't care about defile because they use shields.

just slot shieldbreaker+the new through dmg proc with defile and he may care too

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi

Let's not pretend you're not an avid fan of Snipe because you post in pretty much any post about it. You make valid arguments but you dance around the issues of the skill. Niche skills are ok, but Snipe either severely underperforms or severely over performs. It's a broken skill. And when I say broken, I don't mean overpowered.

Yes Snipe has issues but you can't simply use these issues to negate the poor gameplay that it promotes outside of your scenarios. Both ends need to be addressed. It would be perfectly fair to increase snipe performance in your described scenario and decrease its performance in xv1 scenarios. In fact, it would be a change that promotes balance.

Stating that builds exist that can out heal snipe spams is fairly moot since those builds are specced for block healing, which is going to negate most direct damage builds, not just snipe spam. Can't really use a build that counters your build to showcase its effectiveness and than argue that it shows the Defile doesn't need a nerf.

100% uptime on Defile is in no way different than 100% uptime on snares. It's overly debilitating and removes a players ability to actually play. Uptime on Defile needs to go down, and unfortunately that means Snipe is going to have to lose Major Defile as well.

@IAVITNI
I appreciate that you recognize that I try to be objective. However if you go look back you will find that I am in fact not a fan of Snipe nor Snipe mechanics. I have made it work because ZOS continues to push players using the Bow into Snipe.

I began with medium weaves using Molten Armaments and Venom Arrow. Which played quite well when they buffed MA to give 40% damage to heavies/medium weaves. That was nerfed into only buffing heavies, so I switched to using heavies with timed burst. That was further nerfed, so I swapped to using heavies and camping AoEs and Trap. Heavies were nerfed and Bow heavies were nerfed further, and Bow heavies lost the ability to sit and wait for Reflects to drop or dodge rolls to finish.

All that time despite years of feedback about Snipe sucking, Bows needing a spammable, Bows needing changes, still ZOS has stuck with and kept snipe. So my builds changed again and I started to try and use snipe in active combat(not ganking). This required building for sustain and self healing and attempting to essentially wear out my opponents more so than straight kill them. The Asylum Bow actually opened up the opportunity to have good burst from Snipes provided you can land them.

I don't want to use Snipe I have never wanted to use Snipe. ZoS wants me to use Snipe and I gave in.

You will find me on any bow topic not just Snipe. Playing as an archer competitively is something I have put quite a lot of work into and I am not ready to have players who would have bows all but removed from the game dictate the balance. Most address given to Snipe does not want to balance a broken skill or offer solutions, most address only wants to nerf Bows into the ground.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

@IAVITNI
As to defile I still find healing is massively out of control and players can still deal significant damage while having insane healing. I can and have done over 250k healing in No-CP BGs with only vigor and EarthGore. I could have done even more if my pug allies would actually stay in my EarthGore proc.

I do not find Defile to be out of balance given the state of the game and healing in general. I do not think nerfing defile because of shear uptime is a good argument for balance. Rather it appears as a good argument for standardization and cares little for balance. I find that having fewer unkillable players is more enjoyable for everyone.

I do not think defile changes benefit medium as much as they benefit heavy block builds or medium/light S&B block builds. I think a great number of players have become used to being able to roll over larger groups of players and care not for balance but rather are concerned they they feel they are weaker.

DuskMarine · April 2018

LeifErickson wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

defile needs to kindve stay where its at tbh right now. reason being a critical on bol is an instant heal back to full health almost. only thing to counter that is major defile. so it doesnt need nerfed cause it hard counters probly the best best heal in the game. and i dont know if anyone wants templar heal balls back right?

A crit heal of bol does not heal back to full at all. It would take me two crit heals of bol on a 27k health argonian build to get to full if I was at 3k best case scenario.

your not min maxed at all then cause ive hit for 20k+ bols easy in pvp with a min maxed build. its not that hard to pull off at all.

LeifErickson · April 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

defile needs to kindve stay where its at tbh right now. reason being a critical on bol is an instant heal back to full health almost. only thing to counter that is major defile. so it doesnt need nerfed cause it hard counters probly the best best heal in the game. and i dont know if anyone wants templar heal balls back right?

A crit heal of bol does not heal back to full at all. It would take me two crit heals of bol on a 27k health argonian build to get to full if I was at 3k best case scenario.

your not min maxed at all then cause ive hit for 20k+ bols easy in pvp with a min maxed build. its not that hard to pull off at all.

Are you specced completely into healing in cp? I don't really believe you could sustain that at all. I don't think I have even ever seen a bol that high since the nerf. Not even close to that.

Derra · April 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What would you people think about giving medium armor agility passive a second function that reduced healdebuffs by 30 to 50% in effectiveness?

I think not all of us main a class that doesn't care about defile because they use shields.

not all of us main a class that can access defile easily aswell

i play both heavy stam and light without annulment. my argument is based on experience with those aswell.

DuskMarine · April 2018

LeifErickson wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

defile needs to kindve stay where its at tbh right now. reason being a critical on bol is an instant heal back to full health almost. only thing to counter that is major defile. so it doesnt need nerfed cause it hard counters probly the best best heal in the game. and i dont know if anyone wants templar heal balls back right?

A crit heal of bol does not heal back to full at all. It would take me two crit heals of bol on a 27k health argonian build to get to full if I was at 3k best case scenario.

your not min maxed at all then cause ive hit for 20k+ bols easy in pvp with a min maxed build. its not that hard to pull off at all.

Are you specced completely into healing in cp? I don't really believe you could sustain that at all. I don't think I have even ever seen a bol that high since the nerf. Not even close to that.

yea im 100% speced into healing as far as sustain goes its fine i really dont run out of resources unless i hit breath more than once cause the smart heal ai doesnt work worth a damn in targeting who i want targeted.

Feanor · April 2018

as far as sustain goes its fine i really dont run out of resources unless i hit breath more than once

That’s not really what “sustain” means. Sustain us about using your skills more than once...

DuskMarine · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

as far as sustain goes its fine i really dont run out of resources unless i hit breath more than once

That’s not really what “sustain” means. Sustain us about using your skills more than once...

sustain in this game tends to mean how your resources go thats your sustain. now battle ability yea i do fine no real problems in that department either.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

I would like to point out that while I play primarily in No-CP on live, I also play CP campaigns.

For the PTS I have not been able to test No-CP. I have waited an hour or so in que multiple times for BGs. But I cannot devote anymore time to ESO right now. My testing and experience with pvp on the PTS is exclusively in Cyrodill with CP. And there are not a ton of players to fight, its a dang ghost town.

Own · April 2018

It should come down to 25% major and 12% minor. The max durations should be lowered. Befoul cp down to 35%.

I mean 55% befoul from CP is kind of insane.

Animus-ESO · April 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

This game doesn't favor small groups at all though. And nerfing major defile doesn't buff small groups, it buffs everyone. Major defile is too good in every aspect of pvp - small, medium, large group.

I agree that given a perfect situation of small vs large this game doesn't favor small. However given the often ecountered situation of small group of great players vs large group of mediocre to bad players, it absolutely favors small coordinated groups. This game allows for an incredible amount of user control over combat variables, which in turn gives great advantage to those who know how to take advantage of those variables best.

I would agree that Defile is too good if we ignore healing. But I disagree when I take healing into account. Healing has been massively out of scale for a long time. Bad to mediocre players/groups have not known how to take advantage of it but I can assure you that good players/groups have.

I have run builds designed for powerful Snipes that would hit for 20k+ against most players and spammed blockplar/blockden healers with Lethal Arrow who didn't even bother LoSing, CC, interrupting me but killed my allies before turning on me. I do not run so one sided builds anymore and healing isn't what it has been. But it is still incredibly strong for those who invest in it.

Given the overall game balance I cannot agree that Defiles are over performing. They are great against builds that have invested minimally for self sustain and healing. And they are decently effective vs block builds, but only if you can sustain pressure on them.

No offense dude but you sound like a idiot. I main a magplar, pretty dang well known in pc NA for small man PvP. Defile is off the wall unbalanced right now. I have access to a cheap purge but normally i end up using 1/2 my magica pool trying to get defile off me being that 1 light attack from a Stan player can apply over 5 debuffs on you at a time. Most of the time in have some monkey weaving reverb on me every 2 seconds or some duroks bane cancer standing next to me light attacking me. There is no counter to it and it needs a befoul nerf to balance it out.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

This game doesn't favor small groups at all though. And nerfing major defile doesn't buff small groups, it buffs everyone. Major defile is too good in every aspect of pvp - small, medium, large group.

I agree that given a perfect situation of small vs large this game doesn't favor small. However given the often ecountered situation of small group of great players vs large group of mediocre to bad players, it absolutely favors small coordinated groups. This game allows for an incredible amount of user control over combat variables, which in turn gives great advantage to those who know how to take advantage of those variables best.

I would agree that Defile is too good if we ignore healing. But I disagree when I take healing into account. Healing has been massively out of scale for a long time. Bad to mediocre players/groups have not known how to take advantage of it but I can assure you that good players/groups have.

I have run builds designed for powerful Snipes that would hit for 20k+ against most players and spammed blockplar/blockden healers with Lethal Arrow who didn't even bother LoSing, CC, interrupting me but killed my allies before turning on me. I do not run so one sided builds anymore and healing isn't what it has been. But it is still incredibly strong for those who invest in it.

Given the overall game balance I cannot agree that Defiles are over performing. They are great against builds that have invested minimally for self sustain and healing. And they are decently effective vs block builds, but only if you can sustain pressure on them.

No offense dude but you sound like a idiot. I main a magplar, pretty dang well known in pc NA for small man PvP. Defile is off the wall unbalanced right now. I have access to a cheap purge but normally i end up using 1/2 my magica pool trying to get defile off me being that 1 light attack from a Stan player can apply over 5 debuffs on you at a time. Most of the time in have some monkey weaving reverb on me every 2 seconds or some duroks bane cancer standing next to me light attacking me. There is no counter to it and it needs a befoul nerf to balance it out.

No offense but you sound like you need to get gud. Or perhaps its only your expectations to be taking on so many players at once that is the problem. Although if you are spending 1/2 your mag pool trying to get rid of a debuff I'm pretty certain its an L2P issue. I cannot afford a purge, yet Vigor, Draining Shot, and Troll King does me just fine.

Animus-ESO · April 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

This game doesn't favor small groups at all though. And nerfing major defile doesn't buff small groups, it buffs everyone. Major defile is too good in every aspect of pvp - small, medium, large group.

I agree that given a perfect situation of small vs large this game doesn't favor small. However given the often ecountered situation of small group of great players vs large group of mediocre to bad players, it absolutely favors small coordinated groups. This game allows for an incredible amount of user control over combat variables, which in turn gives great advantage to those who know how to take advantage of those variables best.

I would agree that Defile is too good if we ignore healing. But I disagree when I take healing into account. Healing has been massively out of scale for a long time. Bad to mediocre players/groups have not known how to take advantage of it but I can assure you that good players/groups have.

I have run builds designed for powerful Snipes that would hit for 20k+ against most players and spammed blockplar/blockden healers with Lethal Arrow who didn't even bother LoSing, CC, interrupting me but killed my allies before turning on me. I do not run so one sided builds anymore and healing isn't what it has been. But it is still incredibly strong for those who invest in it.

Given the overall game balance I cannot agree that Defiles are over performing. They are great against builds that have invested minimally for self sustain and healing. And they are decently effective vs block builds, but only if you can sustain pressure on them.

No offense dude but you sound like a idiot. I main a magplar, pretty dang well known in pc NA for small man PvP. Defile is off the wall unbalanced right now. I have access to a cheap purge but normally i end up using 1/2 my magica pool trying to get defile off me being that 1 light attack from a Stan player can apply over 5 debuffs on you at a time. Most of the time in have some monkey weaving reverb on me every 2 seconds or some duroks bane cancer standing next to me light attacking me. There is no counter to it and it needs a befoul nerf to balance it out.

No offense but you sound like you need to get gud. Or perhaps its only your expectations to be taking on so many players at once that is the problem. Although if you are spending 1/2 your mag pool trying to get rid of a debuff I'm pretty certain its an L2P issue. I cannot afford a purge, yet Vigor, Draining Shot, and Troll King does me just fine.

Hit me up in game and ill show you who needs to get gud lmao. @battletoadz

Animus-ESO · April 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

This game doesn't favor small groups at all though. And nerfing major defile doesn't buff small groups, it buffs everyone. Major defile is too good in every aspect of pvp - small, medium, large group.

I agree that given a perfect situation of small vs large this game doesn't favor small. However given the often ecountered situation of small group of great players vs large group of mediocre to bad players, it absolutely favors small coordinated groups. This game allows for an incredible amount of user control over combat variables, which in turn gives great advantage to those who know how to take advantage of those variables best.

I would agree that Defile is too good if we ignore healing. But I disagree when I take healing into account. Healing has been massively out of scale for a long time. Bad to mediocre players/groups have not known how to take advantage of it but I can assure you that good players/groups have.

I have run builds designed for powerful Snipes that would hit for 20k+ against most players and spammed blockplar/blockden healers with Lethal Arrow who didn't even bother LoSing, CC, interrupting me but killed my allies before turning on me. I do not run so one sided builds anymore and healing isn't what it has been. But it is still incredibly strong for those who invest in it.

Given the overall game balance I cannot agree that Defiles are over performing. They are great against builds that have invested minimally for self sustain and healing. And they are decently effective vs block builds, but only if you can sustain pressure on them.

No offense dude but you sound like a idiot. I main a magplar, pretty dang well known in pc NA for small man PvP. Defile is off the wall unbalanced right now. I have access to a cheap purge but normally i end up using 1/2 my magica pool trying to get defile off me being that 1 light attack from a Stan player can apply over 5 debuffs on you at a time. Most of the time in have some monkey weaving reverb on me every 2 seconds or some duroks bane cancer standing next to me light attacking me. There is no counter to it and it needs a befoul nerf to balance it out.

No offense but you sound like you need to get gud. Or perhaps its only your expectations to be taking on so many players at once that is the problem. Although if you are spending 1/2 your mag pool trying to get rid of a debuff I'm pretty certain its an L2P issue. I cannot afford a purge, yet Vigor, Draining Shot, and Troll King does me just fine.

Ps. Assuming you are using draining shot and trollking you must be a stamblade with truth/bonepirates tatters and forward momentum. Your build 100% relys on defile so I can see why you vigourly defend it because your build depends on it.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

This game doesn't favor small groups at all though. And nerfing major defile doesn't buff small groups, it buffs everyone. Major defile is too good in every aspect of pvp - small, medium, large group.

I agree that given a perfect situation of small vs large this game doesn't favor small. However given the often ecountered situation of small group of great players vs large group of mediocre to bad players, it absolutely favors small coordinated groups. This game allows for an incredible amount of user control over combat variables, which in turn gives great advantage to those who know how to take advantage of those variables best.

I would agree that Defile is too good if we ignore healing. But I disagree when I take healing into account. Healing has been massively out of scale for a long time. Bad to mediocre players/groups have not known how to take advantage of it but I can assure you that good players/groups have.

I have run builds designed for powerful Snipes that would hit for 20k+ against most players and spammed blockplar/blockden healers with Lethal Arrow who didn't even bother LoSing, CC, interrupting me but killed my allies before turning on me. I do not run so one sided builds anymore and healing isn't what it has been. But it is still incredibly strong for those who invest in it.

Given the overall game balance I cannot agree that Defiles are over performing. They are great against builds that have invested minimally for self sustain and healing. And they are decently effective vs block builds, but only if you can sustain pressure on them.

No offense dude but you sound like a idiot. I main a magplar, pretty dang well known in pc NA for small man PvP. Defile is off the wall unbalanced right now. I have access to a cheap purge but normally i end up using 1/2 my magica pool trying to get defile off me being that 1 light attack from a Stan player can apply over 5 debuffs on you at a time. Most of the time in have some monkey weaving reverb on me every 2 seconds or some duroks bane cancer standing next to me light attacking me. There is no counter to it and it needs a befoul nerf to balance it out.

No offense but you sound like you need to get gud. Or perhaps its only your expectations to be taking on so many players at once that is the problem. Although if you are spending 1/2 your mag pool trying to get rid of a debuff I'm pretty certain its an L2P issue. I cannot afford a purge, yet Vigor, Draining Shot, and Troll King does me just fine.

Ps. Assuming you are using draining shot and trollking you must be a stamblade with truth/bonepirates tatters and forward momentum. Your build 100% relys on defile so I can see why you vigourly defend it because your build depends on it.

You know nothing John Snow.

IAVITNI · April 2018

To your first point regarding Bow and its reliance on snipe being competitive, you really do have my sympathy. My first character was a stam sorc that used pets and a bow. I mostly stuck to light attacks since they're wasn't really a good spammable at the time (I started at console launch). I agree with your position, personally would still like to see a buff to bow builds overall so that it works on any class, not just NB and the power of snipe to be distributed more evenly throughout the skill line. That said, I'm going to assume the fact that you main a gimped spec skews your perception of actual PvP combat.
Those high mitigation block heal bots are build-counters to bow builds at the moment.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@IAVITNI
As to defile I still find healing is massively out of control and players can still deal significant damage while having insane healing. I can and have done over 250k healing in No-CP BGs with only vigor and EarthGore. I could have done even more if my pug allies would actually stay in my EarthGore proc.

I do not find Defile to be out of balance given the state of the game and healing in general. I do not think nerfing defile because of shear uptime is a good argument for balance. Rather it appears as a good argument for standardization and cares little for balance. I find that having fewer unkillable players is more enjoyable for everyone.

I do not think defile changes benefit medium as much as they benefit heavy block builds or medium/light S&B block builds. I think a great number of players have become used to being able to roll over larger groups of players and care not for balance but rather are concerned they they feel they are weaker.

Healing can be overpowered in the same way that permablocking was overpowered (less so in its current state, but still strong) but those charachters build for it. In the same line that block cost changes (prior to block calculation changes) hurt non-perma blockers more, increasing the potency of Defile has punished the non-extreme healing builds more than those high mitigation healing builds. I think crit healing going away is a step in the right direction but it also requires Defile to be tuned. Defile is strong now with crit heals, without them, healing is going to be nearly non-existent

Playing as a mDK without shields or any stam toon besides stamplar becomes needlessly taxing from a single debuff that can be kept up 100% of the time. The only way to counter is to run Defile yourself in order to apply counter pressure.

I fought a DW/1h+Shield spec that spammed Reverb.

I run 2 sustain sets in heavy and I was spec'd moderately into healing at the time (still learning mDK so I built more forgiving) and the player I was fairly average with a simple rotation. I got destroyed in a matter of seconds. A full Burning Embers, Coagulating spam and Cauterize were barely enough to keep my health from dropping to 0 as a vampire within 10 seconds. While I'm new to mDK I know how to survive and am still above the average mDK.

it's slightly easier to deal with Defile on stam builds because you can roll dodge the heavy hits reliably. For any non-shield specs its absurd how Major Defile can close a large skill gap.

BohnT · April 2018

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

This game doesn't favor small groups at all though. And nerfing major defile doesn't buff small groups, it buffs everyone. Major defile is too good in every aspect of pvp - small, medium, large group.

I agree that given a perfect situation of small vs large this game doesn't favor small. However given the often ecountered situation of small group of great players vs large group of mediocre to bad players, it absolutely favors small coordinated groups. This game allows for an incredible amount of user control over combat variables, which in turn gives great advantage to those who know how to take advantage of those variables best.

I would agree that Defile is too good if we ignore healing. But I disagree when I take healing into account. Healing has been massively out of scale for a long time. Bad to mediocre players/groups have not known how to take advantage of it but I can assure you that good players/groups have.

I have run builds designed for powerful Snipes that would hit for 20k+ against most players and spammed blockplar/blockden healers with Lethal Arrow who didn't even bother LoSing, CC, interrupting me but killed my allies before turning on me. I do not run so one sided builds anymore and healing isn't what it has been. But it is still incredibly strong for those who invest in it.

Given the overall game balance I cannot agree that Defiles are over performing. They are great against builds that have invested minimally for self sustain and healing. And they are decently effective vs block builds, but only if you can sustain pressure on them.

No offense dude but you sound like a idiot. I main a magplar, pretty dang well known in pc NA for small man PvP. Defile is off the wall unbalanced right now. I have access to a cheap purge but normally i end up using 1/2 my magica pool trying to get defile off me being that 1 light attack from a Stan player can apply over 5 debuffs on you at a time. Most of the time in have some monkey weaving reverb on me every 2 seconds or some duroks bane cancer standing next to me light attacking me. There is no counter to it and it needs a befoul nerf to balance it out.

No offense but you sound like you need to get gud. Or perhaps its only your expectations to be taking on so many players at once that is the problem. Although if you are spending 1/2 your mag pool trying to get rid of a debuff I'm pretty certain its an L2P issue. I cannot afford a purge, yet Vigor, Draining Shot, and Troll King does me just fine.

Ps. Assuming you are using draining shot and trollking you must be a stamblade with truth/bonepirates tatters and forward momentum. Your build 100% relys on defile so I can see why you vigourly defend it because your build depends on it.

Please tell us the Outcome of that fight

LeifErickson · April 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

To your first point regarding Bow and its reliance on snipe being competitive, you really do have my sympathy. My first character was a stam sorc that used pets and a bow. I mostly stuck to light attacks since they're wasn't really a good spammable at the time (I started at console launch). I agree with your position, personally would still like to see a buff to bow builds overall so that it works on any class, not just NB and the power of snipe to be distributed more evenly throughout the skill line. That said, I'm going to assume the fact that you main a gimped spec skews your perception of actual PvP combat.
Those high mitigation block heal bots are build-counters to bow builds at the moment.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@IAVITNI
As to defile I still find healing is massively out of control and players can still deal significant damage while having insane healing. I can and have done over 250k healing in No-CP BGs with only vigor and EarthGore. I could have done even more if my pug allies would actually stay in my EarthGore proc.

I do not find Defile to be out of balance given the state of the game and healing in general. I do not think nerfing defile because of shear uptime is a good argument for balance. Rather it appears as a good argument for standardization and cares little for balance. I find that having fewer unkillable players is more enjoyable for everyone.

I do not think defile changes benefit medium as much as they benefit heavy block builds or medium/light S&B block builds. I think a great number of players have become used to being able to roll over larger groups of players and care not for balance but rather are concerned they they feel they are weaker.

Healing can be overpowered in the same way that permablocking was overpowered (less so in its current state, but still strong) but those charachters build for it. In the same line that block cost changes (prior to block calculation changes) hurt non-perma blockers more, increasing the potency of Defile has punished the non-extreme healing builds more than those high mitigation healing builds. I think crit healing going away is a step in the right direction but it also requires Defile to be tuned. Defile is strong now with crit heals, without them, healing is going to be nearly non-existent

Playing as a mDK without shields or any stam toon besides stamplar becomes needlessly taxing from a single debuff that can be kept up 100% of the time. The only way to counter is to run Defile yourself in order to apply counter pressure.

I fought a DW/1h+Shield spec that spammed Reverb.

I run 2 sustain sets in heavy and I was spec'd moderately into healing at the time (still learning mDK so I built more forgiving) and the player I was fairly average with a simple rotation. I got destroyed in a matter of seconds. A full Burning Embers, Coagulating spam and Cauterize were barely enough to keep my health from dropping to 0 as a vampire within 10 seconds. While I'm new to mDK I know how to survive and am still above the average mDK.

it's slightly easier to deal with Defile on stam builds because you can roll dodge the heavy hits reliably. For any non-shield specs its absurd how Major Defile can close a large skill gap.

Your scenario perfectly outlines why defile is too strong. Mdk without shields against defile slowly dies with nothing they can do.

itscompton · April 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

defile needs to kindve stay where its at tbh right now. reason being a critical on bol is an instant heal back to full health almost. only thing to counter that is major defile. so it doesnt need nerfed cause it hard counters probly the best best heal in the game. and i dont know if anyone wants templar heal balls back right?

A crit heal of bol does not heal back to full at all. It would take me two crit heals of bol on a 27k health argonian build to get to full if I was at 3k best case scenario.

your not min maxed at all then cause ive hit for 20k+ bols easy in pvp with a min maxed build. its not that hard to pull off at all.

If you're getting those numbers then you have to be fully specced into healing done and received and probably running around as a healbot for groups. I doubt you're killing anybody one on one. Try running your build solo for a while and see how effective your min maxed light armor high critical heal build is when your healing's been debuffed by 50% forcing you into spamming a high-cost heal every second just to stay ahead of incoming damage. You will likely stay alive just long enough to run out of Magicka or stamina and then whether its lack of resources to cast another heal or break a 4 second long stun you instantly die.

Ocelot9x · April 2018

I think defile is really hard to balance,and the class who needs to be defiled the most can purge while medium armor specs are destroyed by it.
I run a medium stam dk and when I'm defiled (almost every time I have 3+ people on me since everyone joined the stam nb fotm) my vigor crits for 900 lol
But still defile is something needed (even tho I have no place on my bars for it) for those heavy armor pro players wannabe and healbots.
Removing it from spammables and from cheap ultis (I'm looking at you,incap) while leaving as it is on sets and glyphs could be a solution imho

Animus-ESO · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

This game doesn't favor small groups at all though. And nerfing major defile doesn't buff small groups, it buffs everyone. Major defile is too good in every aspect of pvp - small, medium, large group.

I agree that given a perfect situation of small vs large this game doesn't favor small. However given the often ecountered situation of small group of great players vs large group of mediocre to bad players, it absolutely favors small coordinated groups. This game allows for an incredible amount of user control over combat variables, which in turn gives great advantage to those who know how to take advantage of those variables best.

I would agree that Defile is too good if we ignore healing. But I disagree when I take healing into account. Healing has been massively out of scale for a long time. Bad to mediocre players/groups have not known how to take advantage of it but I can assure you that good players/groups have.

I have run builds designed for powerful Snipes that would hit for 20k+ against most players and spammed blockplar/blockden healers with Lethal Arrow who didn't even bother LoSing, CC, interrupting me but killed my allies before turning on me. I do not run so one sided builds anymore and healing isn't what it has been. But it is still incredibly strong for those who invest in it.

Given the overall game balance I cannot agree that Defiles are over performing. They are great against builds that have invested minimally for self sustain and healing. And they are decently effective vs block builds, but only if you can sustain pressure on them.

No offense dude but you sound like a idiot. I main a magplar, pretty dang well known in pc NA for small man PvP. Defile is off the wall unbalanced right now. I have access to a cheap purge but normally i end up using 1/2 my magica pool trying to get defile off me being that 1 light attack from a Stan player can apply over 5 debuffs on you at a time. Most of the time in have some monkey weaving reverb on me every 2 seconds or some duroks bane cancer standing next to me light attacking me. There is no counter to it and it needs a befoul nerf to balance it out.

No offense but you sound like you need to get gud. Or perhaps its only your expectations to be taking on so many players at once that is the problem. Although if you are spending 1/2 your mag pool trying to get rid of a debuff I'm pretty certain its an L2P issue. I cannot afford a purge, yet Vigor, Draining Shot, and Troll King does me just fine.

Ps. Assuming you are using draining shot and trollking you must be a stamblade with truth/bonepirates tatters and forward momentum. Your build 100% relys on defile so I can see why you vigourly defend it because your build depends on it.

Please tell us the Outcome of that fight

Only if he gets at me. I doubt it though

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

This game doesn't favor small groups at all though. And nerfing major defile doesn't buff small groups, it buffs everyone. Major defile is too good in every aspect of pvp - small, medium, large group.

I agree that given a perfect situation of small vs large this game doesn't favor small. However given the often ecountered situation of small group of great players vs large group of mediocre to bad players, it absolutely favors small coordinated groups. This game allows for an incredible amount of user control over combat variables, which in turn gives great advantage to those who know how to take advantage of those variables best.

I would agree that Defile is too good if we ignore healing. But I disagree when I take healing into account. Healing has been massively out of scale for a long time. Bad to mediocre players/groups have not known how to take advantage of it but I can assure you that good players/groups have.

I have run builds designed for powerful Snipes that would hit for 20k+ against most players and spammed blockplar/blockden healers with Lethal Arrow who didn't even bother LoSing, CC, interrupting me but killed my allies before turning on me. I do not run so one sided builds anymore and healing isn't what it has been. But it is still incredibly strong for those who invest in it.

Given the overall game balance I cannot agree that Defiles are over performing. They are great against builds that have invested minimally for self sustain and healing. And they are decently effective vs block builds, but only if you can sustain pressure on them.

No offense dude but you sound like a idiot. I main a magplar, pretty dang well known in pc NA for small man PvP. Defile is off the wall unbalanced right now. I have access to a cheap purge but normally i end up using 1/2 my magica pool trying to get defile off me being that 1 light attack from a Stan player can apply over 5 debuffs on you at a time. Most of the time in have some monkey weaving reverb on me every 2 seconds or some duroks bane cancer standing next to me light attacking me. There is no counter to it and it needs a befoul nerf to balance it out.

No offense but you sound like you need to get gud. Or perhaps its only your expectations to be taking on so many players at once that is the problem. Although if you are spending 1/2 your mag pool trying to get rid of a debuff I'm pretty certain its an L2P issue. I cannot afford a purge, yet Vigor, Draining Shot, and Troll King does me just fine.

Ps. Assuming you are using draining shot and trollking you must be a stamblade with truth/bonepirates tatters and forward momentum. Your build 100% relys on defile so I can see why you vigourly defend it because your build depends on it.

Please tell us the Outcome of that fight

Only if he gets at me. I doubt it though

You are going to have to get on the PTS or console for that fight to happen, my PC characters are not leveled. I'm usually on the PTS in Cyrodill a few times a week. @khourschet

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

dotme wrote: »

If defile is so strong, how come there are still unkillable tanks and other builds? The grass is always greener on the other side, but if I might make a suggestion, go make a defile build and see how you do. You might be surprised at how many players you still can't take down.

there are no unkillable tanks in PvP. You people LA+dizzy spam a permablocker and expect him to die.