Something Needs To Be Done About Defile

Mystrius_Archaion

Anazasi wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with defile. It is a easily countered debuff. Players need to learn to purge.

1) Not guaranteed which debuff or DoT gets purged for the cost unless you are only spamming Purge.

2) Not everybody has Purge access, especially when first starting PVP on a character.

3) A skill bar slot is the only way to counter it? What about build diversity?

Just pigeon-hole everybody. Make all skills except the alliance war skills blocked in pvp and retune the alliance war lines to only have 10 non-ultimates and 2 ultimates max that everyone can fill their bars with and not miss anything.
That might, just might, balance PVP finally. Anything else is useless effort.

Teeba_Shei

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Checkmath

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

then also all sets applying defile needs a rework, especially duroks bane, since it allows permanent major defile on every enemy hitting you.

SshadowSscale

I play non cp sotha sil pvp stamina build in medium armor and I cant say that I have a problem with defiles....I can heal myself just fine so I dont know what your going on about....and I have ran into alot of the unkillable tanks on NA server so they do still exists....I can think of three from this weekend alone

Toc de Malsvi

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

FYI, we're talking about Major Defile.

Name another Major level buff or debuff that is so easy to apply and keep up 100% of the time without some caveat that cancels it if you do something else(like Rapid Maneuvers major expedition requiring a boatload of stamina and dropping if you do any other skill).

It's too easy to trigger and maintain Major Defile, and it's really only useful against players.

Major:
Brutality
Sorcery
Savagery
Ward
Resolve
Fracture+Breach

You can cancel out Major Defile. With either vitality or mending. Or you can build to brut force your way through it. I play with Major defile and against it all the time.

Funnily enough I find plenty of people who heal right through defile like I am not hitting them. And still hit me like a truck.

I myself deal with defile fine, it sucks because it hurts healing but I am just as likely to die because someone put Major Breach or Major Fracture on me and made me more susceptibile to burst.

Toc de Malsvi

The only reason people are so upset by defile is because it is actually somewhat effective against players utilizing S&B and block. You can weedle them down better where as Fracture or Breach is less effective versus block boys.

Toc de Malsvi

Checkmath wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

then also all sets applying defile needs a rework, especially duroks bane, since it allows permanent major defile on every enemy hitting you.

I can agree with this. This set is far to effective as you merely need to get in the center of action and you are bound to trigger it against virtually everyone. I took some of my newby guildies into BGs and found considerable success by just having one of them wear Durocks and another wear Riposte.

casparian

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

FYI, we're talking about Major Defile.

Name another Major level buff or debuff that is so easy to apply and keep up 100% of the time without some caveat that cancels it if you do something else(like Rapid Maneuvers major expedition requiring a boatload of stamina and dropping if you do any other skill).

It's too easy to trigger and maintain Major Defile, and it's really only useful against players.

Major:
Brutality
Sorcery
Savagery
Ward
Resolve
Fracture+Breach

You can cancel out Major Defile. With either vitality or mending. Or you can build to brut force your way through it. I play with Major defile and against it all the time.

Funnily enough I find plenty of people who heal right through defile like I am not hitting them. And still hit me like a truck.

I myself deal with defile fine, it sucks because it hurts healing but I am just as likely to die because someone put Major Breach or Major Fracture on me and made me more susceptibile to burst.

ZOS has repeatedly nerfed the available sources of Mending and Vitality, in some cases completely removing sources of them from the game. It's disingenuous to suggest parity between them and Defile. What's more, the other counter to Defile (which you don't mention), critical heals, is also getting a huge nerf this patch.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The only reason people are so upset by defile is because it is actually somewhat effective against players utilizing S&B and block. You can weedle them down better where as Fracture or Breach is less effective versus block boys.

I agree that Defile is a necessary counter to builds built around block-casting heals. That's not why it's a problem. The issue is that it's even more effective against those of us who don't run builds like that. You're going to Lethal Arrow my 2H/DW medium stamplar just as well as you will a healtank. It's bad design when the specific counter to one strong variety of build is detrimental to many other build types that don't need to be countered in that specific way.

Toc de Malsvi

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

Minalan

Speaking as someone who has little to no skin in this game. A magsorc can’t defile anyone, and we use shields and dodge instead of healing.

Defile needs to be looked at in light of healing no longer getting critical damage bonuses applied to it. The next patch is looking bad enough for healing without this.

Group healing isn’t the huge issue IMO. The problem is usually earthgore, when it can render a negate basically useless.

Toc de Malsvi

casparian wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

FYI, we're talking about Major Defile.

Name another Major level buff or debuff that is so easy to apply and keep up 100% of the time without some caveat that cancels it if you do something else(like Rapid Maneuvers major expedition requiring a boatload of stamina and dropping if you do any other skill).

It's too easy to trigger and maintain Major Defile, and it's really only useful against players.

Major:
Brutality
Sorcery
Savagery
Ward
Resolve
Fracture+Breach

You can cancel out Major Defile. With either vitality or mending. Or you can build to brut force your way through it. I play with Major defile and against it all the time.

Funnily enough I find plenty of people who heal right through defile like I am not hitting them. And still hit me like a truck.

I myself deal with defile fine, it sucks because it hurts healing but I am just as likely to die because someone put Major Breach or Major Fracture on me and made me more susceptibile to burst.

ZOS has repeatedly nerfed the available sources of Mending and Vitality, in some cases completely removing sources of them from the game. It's disingenuous to suggest parity between them and Defile. What's more, the other counter to Defile (which you don't mention), critical heals, is also getting a huge nerf this patch.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The only reason people are so upset by defile is because it is actually somewhat effective against players utilizing S&B and block. You can weedle them down better where as Fracture or Breach is less effective versus block boys.

I agree that Defile is a necessary counter to builds built around block-casting heals. That's not why it's a problem. The issue is that it's even more effective against those of us who don't run builds like that. You're going to Lethal Arrow my 2H/DW medium stamplar just as well as you will a healtank. It's bad design when the specific counter to one strong variety of build is detrimental to many other build types that don't need to be countered in that specific way.

But I really wont though as I detailed above. I will miss 3-4 out of 5 Snipes that are far to easily mitigated from dodge roll/Shuffle/Stun. I get kills usually because people underestimate my burst and go for a kill on me and let me hit them with Snipe.

Against light armor I will agree its stronger, but so are their heals and wards negating crits.

If I can get a defile on medium its great, however it takes a lot of work usually unless like I said they simply let me and decide not to mitigate.

Mystrius_Archaion

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

FYI, we're talking about Major Defile.

Name another Major level buff or debuff that is so easy to apply and keep up 100% of the time without some caveat that cancels it if you do something else(like Rapid Maneuvers major expedition requiring a boatload of stamina and dropping if you do any other skill).

It's too easy to trigger and maintain Major Defile, and it's really only useful against players.

Major:
Brutality
Sorcery
Savagery
Ward
Resolve
Fracture+Breach

You can cancel out Major Defile. With either vitality or mending. Or you can build to brut force your way through it. I play with Major defile and against it all the time.

Yeah, I posted without thinking about buffs, more debuffs.

BUT, you bring up the point of major vitality or major mending which are far harder to maintain than defile. They should be equal as counters to each other.
So if they don't want to nerf defile to be harder to maintain like they nerfed vitality and mending then they need to buff vitality and mending to be more permanent.

Vaoh

- Defile CP star goes up to 55%

- Major Defile goes from a 30% to a 46% healing reduction debuff.
- Minor Defile goes from a 15% to a 23% healing reduction debuff.

Not totally sure how the two would stack with each other, or furthermore how any of this stacks with Battle Spirit. Either way the CP star is far too strong.

Joy_Division

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Currently, defile is way too strong for how trivial it is to apply. I don;t mind strong debuffs, but there should be some sort of effort needed to tag a player with that debuff. Spamming Reverb Bash, which also puts an obnoxious stun that sometimes, for whatever reason, takes forever to break is not it.

I disagree. The biggest problem with defile at the moment is related to sets like duroks and cyrodiils crest where you can apply the defile to multiple targets with little to no effort and with little to no cooldown. Reverb bash is an active single target skill. While you can continuously apply the debuff to a player, it’s just that...a single player.

People getting Xv1ed would probably appreciate if defile wasn't so easy to apply.

BohnT

Vaoh wrote: »

- Defile CP star goes up to 55%

- Major Defile goes from a 30% to a 46% healing reduction debuff.
- Minor Defile goes from a 15% to a 23% healing reduction debuff.

Not totally sure how the two would stack with each other, or furthermore how any of this stacks with Battle Spirit. Either way the CP star is far too strong.

I linked a post above where some math is done about defiles and yes it's bad

NobleX35

Joy_Division wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Currently, defile is way too strong for how trivial it is to apply. I don;t mind strong debuffs, but there should be some sort of effort needed to tag a player with that debuff. Spamming Reverb Bash, which also puts an obnoxious stun that sometimes, for whatever reason, takes forever to break is not it.

I disagree. The biggest problem with defile at the moment is related to sets like duroks and cyrodiils crest where you can apply the defile to multiple targets with little to no effort and with little to no cooldown. Reverb bash is an active single target skill. While you can continuously apply the debuff to a player, it’s just that...a single player.

People getting Xv1ed would probably appreciate if defile wasn't so easy to apply.

You don’t balance the game around xv1 scenarios. And if you’re getting Xv1’d, you’re either going to die anyway in which case it doesn’t matter...or you’re fighting scrubs in which it still doesn’t matter.

BohnT

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Currently, defile is way too strong for how trivial it is to apply. I don;t mind strong debuffs, but there should be some sort of effort needed to tag a player with that debuff. Spamming Reverb Bash, which also puts an obnoxious stun that sometimes, for whatever reason, takes forever to break is not it.

I disagree. The biggest problem with defile at the moment is related to sets like duroks and cyrodiils crest where you can apply the defile to multiple targets with little to no effort and with little to no cooldown. Reverb bash is an active single target skill. While you can continuously apply the debuff to a player, it’s just that...a single player.

People getting Xv1ed would probably appreciate if defile wasn't so easy to apply.

You don’t balance the game around xv1 scenarios. And if you’re getting Xv1’d, you’re either going to die anyway in which case it doesn’t matter...or you’re fighting scrubs in which it still doesn’t matter.

Scrubs with access to 70% defiles are absolutely devastating if you can't purge it.
Defiles make Xv1 even easier for scrubs like so many other things in this game.

LeifErickson

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Currently, defile is way too strong for how trivial it is to apply. I don;t mind strong debuffs, but there should be some sort of effort needed to tag a player with that debuff. Spamming Reverb Bash, which also puts an obnoxious stun that sometimes, for whatever reason, takes forever to break is not it.

I disagree. The biggest problem with defile at the moment is related to sets like duroks and cyrodiils crest where you can apply the defile to multiple targets with little to no effort and with little to no cooldown. Reverb bash is an active single target skill. While you can continuously apply the debuff to a player, it’s just that...a single player.

People getting Xv1ed would probably appreciate if defile wasn't so easy to apply.

You don’t balance the game around xv1 scenarios. And if you’re getting Xv1’d, you’re either going to die anyway in which case it doesn’t matter...or you’re fighting scrubs in which it still doesn’t matter.

So you are basically saying the ones who outnumber the others should always win.

LeifErickson

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

LeifErickson

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I play non cp sotha sil pvp stamina build in medium armor and I cant say that I have a problem with defiles....I can heal myself just fine so I dont know what your going on about....and I have ran into alot of the unkillable tanks on NA server so they do still exists....I can think of three from this weekend alone

The difference is you play on no cp. One of the biggest problems with defile is the befoul cp star.

NobleX35

BohnT wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Currently, defile is way too strong for how trivial it is to apply. I don;t mind strong debuffs, but there should be some sort of effort needed to tag a player with that debuff. Spamming Reverb Bash, which also puts an obnoxious stun that sometimes, for whatever reason, takes forever to break is not it.

I disagree. The biggest problem with defile at the moment is related to sets like duroks and cyrodiils crest where you can apply the defile to multiple targets with little to no effort and with little to no cooldown. Reverb bash is an active single target skill. While you can continuously apply the debuff to a player, it’s just that...a single player.

People getting Xv1ed would probably appreciate if defile wasn't so easy to apply.

You don’t balance the game around xv1 scenarios. And if you’re getting Xv1’d, you’re either going to die anyway in which case it doesn’t matter...or you’re fighting scrubs in which it still doesn’t matter.

Scrubs with access to 70% defiles are absolutely devastating if you can't purge it.
Defiles make Xv1 even easier for scrubs like so many other things in this game.

Most people do not invest 100 points into befoul and have both major and minor befoul to proc on cooldown, so please be more realistic. On average you will likely only face between 40-50% decrease healing, which is fairly easy to deal with/counter...especially against scrubs.

NobleX35

LeifErickson wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Currently, defile is way too strong for how trivial it is to apply. I don;t mind strong debuffs, but there should be some sort of effort needed to tag a player with that debuff. Spamming Reverb Bash, which also puts an obnoxious stun that sometimes, for whatever reason, takes forever to break is not it.

I disagree. The biggest problem with defile at the moment is related to sets like duroks and cyrodiils crest where you can apply the defile to multiple targets with little to no effort and with little to no cooldown. Reverb bash is an active single target skill. While you can continuously apply the debuff to a player, it’s just that...a single player.

People getting Xv1ed would probably appreciate if defile wasn't so easy to apply.

You don’t balance the game around xv1 scenarios. And if you’re getting Xv1’d, you’re either going to die anyway in which case it doesn’t matter...or you’re fighting scrubs in which it still doesn’t matter.

So you are basically saying the ones who outnumber the others should always win.

Where did I say that? Please point it out...maybe next time try actually reading instead of putting words in my mouth.

LeifErickson

NobleX35 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Currently, defile is way too strong for how trivial it is to apply. I don;t mind strong debuffs, but there should be some sort of effort needed to tag a player with that debuff. Spamming Reverb Bash, which also puts an obnoxious stun that sometimes, for whatever reason, takes forever to break is not it.

I disagree. The biggest problem with defile at the moment is related to sets like duroks and cyrodiils crest where you can apply the defile to multiple targets with little to no effort and with little to no cooldown. Reverb bash is an active single target skill. While you can continuously apply the debuff to a player, it’s just that...a single player.

People getting Xv1ed would probably appreciate if defile wasn't so easy to apply.

You don’t balance the game around xv1 scenarios. And if you’re getting Xv1’d, you’re either going to die anyway in which case it doesn’t matter...or you’re fighting scrubs in which it still doesn’t matter.

Scrubs with access to 70% defiles are absolutely devastating if you can't purge it.
Defiles make Xv1 even easier for scrubs like so many other things in this game.

If you’re dieing to scrubs then maybe you are a scrub? Also most people do not invest 100 points into befoul and have both major and minor befoul to proc on cooldown, so please be more realistic. On average you will likely only face between 40-50% decrease healing, which is fairly easy to deal with/counter...especially against scrubs.

Since when is fighting multiple people solo with 40-50% decrease healing "fairly easy to deal with/counter?"

WTB your build

BohnT

NobleX35 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Currently, defile is way too strong for how trivial it is to apply. I don;t mind strong debuffs, but there should be some sort of effort needed to tag a player with that debuff. Spamming Reverb Bash, which also puts an obnoxious stun that sometimes, for whatever reason, takes forever to break is not it.

I disagree. The biggest problem with defile at the moment is related to sets like duroks and cyrodiils crest where you can apply the defile to multiple targets with little to no effort and with little to no cooldown. Reverb bash is an active single target skill. While you can continuously apply the debuff to a player, it’s just that...a single player.

People getting Xv1ed would probably appreciate if defile wasn't so easy to apply.

You don’t balance the game around xv1 scenarios. And if you’re getting Xv1’d, you’re either going to die anyway in which case it doesn’t matter...or you’re fighting scrubs in which it still doesn’t matter.

Scrubs with access to 70% defiles are absolutely devastating if you can't purge it.
Defiles make Xv1 even easier for scrubs like so many other things in this game.

If you’re dieing to scrubs then maybe you are a scrub? Also most people do not invest 100 points into befoul and have both major and minor befoul to proc on cooldown, so please be more realistic. On average you will likely only face between 40-50% decrease healing, which is fairly easy to deal with/counter...especially against scrubs.

Oh i wish i could get those PC NA pugs for a week all those easy kills, while PC NA gets EU pugs for one week oh the outrage of the "good" NA players would be so juciy.
Also i didn't say i die to the scrubs they are easy to deal with but one scrub with 70% heal debuff will make you an easy target for any mediocre player

NobleX35

LeifErickson wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Currently, defile is way too strong for how trivial it is to apply. I don;t mind strong debuffs, but there should be some sort of effort needed to tag a player with that debuff. Spamming Reverb Bash, which also puts an obnoxious stun that sometimes, for whatever reason, takes forever to break is not it.

I disagree. The biggest problem with defile at the moment is related to sets like duroks and cyrodiils crest where you can apply the defile to multiple targets with little to no effort and with little to no cooldown. Reverb bash is an active single target skill. While you can continuously apply the debuff to a player, it’s just that...a single player.

People getting Xv1ed would probably appreciate if defile wasn't so easy to apply.

You don’t balance the game around xv1 scenarios. And if you’re getting Xv1’d, you’re either going to die anyway in which case it doesn’t matter...or you’re fighting scrubs in which it still doesn’t matter.

Scrubs with access to 70% defiles are absolutely devastating if you can't purge it.
Defiles make Xv1 even easier for scrubs like so many other things in this game.

If you’re dieing to scrubs then maybe you are a scrub? Also most people do not invest 100 points into befoul and have both major and minor befoul to proc on cooldown, so please be more realistic. On average you will likely only face between 40-50% decrease healing, which is fairly easy to deal with/counter...especially against scrubs.

Since when is fighting multiple people solo with 40-50% decrease healing "fairly easy to deal with/counter?"

WTB your build

Im pretty sure I already put my gear sets in this topic...as for the rest of it, just make intelligent choices like having more than 1 healing skill, putting points into vigor, using pots, using los, etc...you know basic l2p things.

I rarely have serious issues with defile...healing in this game is rather insane and some players can even still heal through all that healing reduction.

LeifErickson

NobleX35 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Currently, defile is way too strong for how trivial it is to apply. I don;t mind strong debuffs, but there should be some sort of effort needed to tag a player with that debuff. Spamming Reverb Bash, which also puts an obnoxious stun that sometimes, for whatever reason, takes forever to break is not it.

I disagree. The biggest problem with defile at the moment is related to sets like duroks and cyrodiils crest where you can apply the defile to multiple targets with little to no effort and with little to no cooldown. Reverb bash is an active single target skill. While you can continuously apply the debuff to a player, it’s just that...a single player.

People getting Xv1ed would probably appreciate if defile wasn't so easy to apply.

You don’t balance the game around xv1 scenarios. And if you’re getting Xv1’d, you’re either going to die anyway in which case it doesn’t matter...or you’re fighting scrubs in which it still doesn’t matter.

Scrubs with access to 70% defiles are absolutely devastating if you can't purge it.
Defiles make Xv1 even easier for scrubs like so many other things in this game.

If you’re dieing to scrubs then maybe you are a scrub? Also most people do not invest 100 points into befoul and have both major and minor befoul to proc on cooldown, so please be more realistic. On average you will likely only face between 40-50% decrease healing, which is fairly easy to deal with/counter...especially against scrubs.

Since when is fighting multiple people solo with 40-50% decrease healing "fairly easy to deal with/counter?"

WTB your build

Im pretty sure I already put my gear sets in this topic...as for the rest of it, just make intelligent choices like having more than 1 healing skill, putting points into vigor, using pots, using los, etc...you know basic l2p things.

I rarely have serious issues with defile...healing in this game is rather insane and some players can even still heal through all that healing reduction.

My point is that out of all the debuffs in this game, there is no debuff as easily applyable and as strong as defile is. It's not balanced. It's counter is Major Vitality which is super hard to get. The builds defile is meant to be devastating to are the same builds that will never kill you ever because they have no damage and hardly give anything to a fight other than an on demand ulti generator. So instead they hurt the less extremes. I just don't understand how you can't agree to that.

Toc de Malsvi

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

LeifErickson

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

This game doesn't favor small groups at all though. And nerfing major defile doesn't buff small groups, it buffs everyone. Major defile is too good in every aspect of pvp - small, medium, large group.

Toc de Malsvi

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

This game doesn't favor small groups at all though. And nerfing major defile doesn't buff small groups, it buffs everyone. Major defile is too good in every aspect of pvp - small, medium, large group.

I agree that given a perfect situation of small vs large this game doesn't favor small. However given the often ecountered situation of small group of great players vs large group of mediocre to bad players, it absolutely favors small coordinated groups. This game allows for an incredible amount of user control over combat variables, which in turn gives great advantage to those who know how to take advantage of those variables best.

I would agree that Defile is too good if we ignore healing. But I disagree when I take healing into account. Healing has been massively out of scale for a long time. Bad to mediocre players/groups have not known how to take advantage of it but I can assure you that good players/groups have.

I have run builds designed for powerful Snipes that would hit for 20k+ against most players and spammed blockplar/blockden healers with Lethal Arrow who didn't even bother LoSing, CC, interrupting me but killed my allies before turning on me. I do not run so one sided builds anymore and healing isn't what it has been. But it is still incredibly strong for those who invest in it.

Given the overall game balance I cannot agree that Defiles are over performing. They are great against builds that have invested minimally for self sustain and healing. And they are decently effective vs block builds, but only if you can sustain pressure on them.

umagon

When healing output scales separately from damage output (however zos wants to handle it); only then can defile be changed. As it stands now you have players with high amounts of defense given to them by having high amounts of healing output who at the same time have high amounts of damage output.

Without defile + champions there is no counter to those builds other than having an insane burst build and basically defeating them before the player can react. With builds that utilize armor and related sets for defense there is a trade off which is damage and healing output values are lower. In contrast to the “go all in” max one resource pool and stack spell/weapon damage as high as possible builds.

I know this will not change any time soon because it requires them to re-itemize the game by creating another stat. Or drastically change the way skills function by making everything run off of one resource and giving an option to allocate how much of the potential output percentage should directed to healing or damage.