Something Needs To Be Done About Defile

IAVITNI

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

dotme wrote: »

If defile is so strong, how come there are still unkillable tanks and other builds? The grass is always greener on the other side, but if I might make a suggestion, go make a defile build and see how you do. You might be surprised at how many players you still can't take down.

there are no unkillable tanks in PvP. You people LA+dizzy spam a permablocker and expect him to die.

Sometimes I heavy attack them just to switch up the LA+dissy spam monotony. They still don't die though.

Wish there was something I could do like run DoT or Bleed based builds or if CC skills existed that dropped block...

For real though, every spec has a counter, with Defile builds being the counter to extreme healing builds. If this was the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth then Defile would be fine. However, it's only a partial truth. Defile is an extremely debilitating counter (borderline hard counter) to pretty much any build that can't purge it or use shields.

It is ok to diminish heals, but never to the point where those heals are significantly inferior to incoming damage, in a truly balanced scenario, heals should always be greater than incoming damage (assuming similar damage/healing stats). Kills should come from resource pressure or player mistakes/outplays. Defile causes players to lose solely due to mathematics that are beyond their ability to overcome.

Imagine going into normal bloodroot forge and getting hit by the lava shulks or the second last minotaur mini boss but the DoT never wore off. You can outheal the damage for a bit but eventually you run out of resources not because you lack the skill/ability/gear but simply because its mathematically impossible to survive.

That's what fighting against 100% uptime Major Defile is like. Take Defile off of spammable skills, reduce its uptime and now it becomes a debuff that players have to tactically apply as opposed to it being free in every rotation. (same could be said for minor maim but really its only riposte that is a culprit).

Ocelot9x wrote: »

I think defile is really hard to balance,and the class who needs to be defiled the most can purge while medium armor specs are destroyed by it.
I run a medium stam dk and when I'm defiled (almost every time I have 3+ people on me since everyone joined the stam nb fotm) my vigor crits for 900 lol
But still defile is something needed (even tho I have no place on my bars for it) for those heavy armor pro players wannabe and healbots.
Removing it from spammables and from cheap ultis (I'm looking at you,incap) while leaving as it is on sets and glyphs could be a solution imho

Only thing that I disagree with would be leaving Durok's as is. Give Duroks an 8 second cooldown (per player), with Major Defile having a 5 second uptime and now you have viable counterplay. Change Fasalla into a debuff that reduces Healing Done and now you have a set that counters healers in ball groups. Stop punishing players that choose to not abuse mechanics while the targeted builds are less affected. Don't repeat block cost mistakes.

Animus-ESO

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's just the durations that need to be toned down. Most of the major defile sources last 10 seconds and are easy to reapply.

Applying defile using Snipe isn't quite "easy", outside of trying to gank players fighting other players. You open your self up to interrupts, long flight time, iconic sound.

If a NB spams Snipe from stealth there is a decent chance it will glitch out and the target wont hear or see animations until they are dead. This is a glitch though it is not how the skill is supposed to function and it is not how the skill functions in live interactive combat.

Lets pretend you get an initial Lethal Arrow on someone for the 10 second debuff. Now they are in your face attacking you, you fight for a bit without using Lethal Arrow. Now you want to reapply Major defile, so you try to Snipe again, they dodge roll, you try again, they interrupt/stun you. You break free and try again, they passively dodge from shuffle/Blur, you try again, they step behind a pillar/lampost and LoS you. This will continue until they let you snipe them because either they do not want to expend the resources to stop you, or they think they can kill you regardless. It is not so "easy" as applying say Reverberating Bash.

This made up situation is not the problem. The problem is when you are sniping someone from 30 meters away while they are dealing with other players right in front of them. If you are sniping people like you are saying in this post, you are not doing it right. You snipe people who will not be able to get to you. And that is when it is overpowered.

So you are saying you should only Snipe players when it is overpowered otherwise you shouldn't Snipe. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your own logic?

It isn't made up I have a lot of experience with it, ganking is not the only use or purpose of Snipe. Standing from range spamming Snipe is effective only when you out number a group or have the protection of walls. Spamming Snipe from range is actually the least effective method outside of getting a glitch. You will bring someones health down only for them to dodge roll heal and walk out of LoS, out of range, or charge you. You will have often expended lots of stamina in vain.

I would much rather have 3 people spamming Snipe at me than 3 people spamming curse as I can mitigate large numbers of Snipes with one dodge roll, I cannot mitigate Curses in the same way. This game is not balanced around Xv1 and shouldn't be.

That isn't to say that smaller groups shouldn't be able to win, that is to say the game should not be nuetered to favor small groups of elite players. Being in an organized group is already advantageous. Being better than your opponents is already advantageous.

Good groups already largely run S&B on one bar because of how strong it is to be able to bar swap and hold block through burst. They do not need anymore help with it.

I run a medium build and I can assure you Major Defile is fine, it sucks but it is not anywhere close to a guaranteed death. From my own experience of surviving it, as well as from my experience of facing a few good players that shrugged it off with little regard. If you are having trouble with Major Defile you are likely either expecting to win fights that you shouldn't, or you do not have a balanced build and lack healing power.

This game doesn't favor small groups at all though. And nerfing major defile doesn't buff small groups, it buffs everyone. Major defile is too good in every aspect of pvp - small, medium, large group.

I agree that given a perfect situation of small vs large this game doesn't favor small. However given the often ecountered situation of small group of great players vs large group of mediocre to bad players, it absolutely favors small coordinated groups. This game allows for an incredible amount of user control over combat variables, which in turn gives great advantage to those who know how to take advantage of those variables best.

I would agree that Defile is too good if we ignore healing. But I disagree when I take healing into account. Healing has been massively out of scale for a long time. Bad to mediocre players/groups have not known how to take advantage of it but I can assure you that good players/groups have.

I have run builds designed for powerful Snipes that would hit for 20k+ against most players and spammed blockplar/blockden healers with Lethal Arrow who didn't even bother LoSing, CC, interrupting me but killed my allies before turning on me. I do not run so one sided builds anymore and healing isn't what it has been. But it is still incredibly strong for those who invest in it.

Given the overall game balance I cannot agree that Defiles are over performing. They are great against builds that have invested minimally for self sustain and healing. And they are decently effective vs block builds, but only if you can sustain pressure on them.

No offense dude but you sound like a idiot. I main a magplar, pretty dang well known in pc NA for small man PvP. Defile is off the wall unbalanced right now. I have access to a cheap purge but normally i end up using 1/2 my magica pool trying to get defile off me being that 1 light attack from a Stan player can apply over 5 debuffs on you at a time. Most of the time in have some monkey weaving reverb on me every 2 seconds or some duroks bane cancer standing next to me light attacking me. There is no counter to it and it needs a befoul nerf to balance it out.

No offense but you sound like you need to get gud. Or perhaps its only your expectations to be taking on so many players at once that is the problem. Although if you are spending 1/2 your mag pool trying to get rid of a debuff I'm pretty certain its an L2P issue. I cannot afford a purge, yet Vigor, Draining Shot, and Troll King does me just fine.

Ps. Assuming you are using draining shot and trollking you must be a stamblade with truth/bonepirates tatters and forward momentum. Your build 100% relys on defile so I can see why you vigourly defend it because your build depends on it.

Please tell us the Outcome of that fight

Only if he gets at me. I doubt it though

You are going to have to get on the PTS or console for that fight to happen, my PC characters are not leveled. I'm usually on the PTS in Cyrodill a few times a week. @khourschet

Ugh console peasant. Disgusting

GrumpyDuckling

I disagree with the statement that defiling needs to be toned down.

Healing is absurd on high damage builds. It just doesn't make sense that stacking damage also increases healing, and defiling is one way to combat that absurdity.

CatchMeTrolling

Defile is too strong and this is mainly because of all the complaints about tanks & healers. I also feel like it’s too accessible and easy to apply.

Feanor

I still don’t understand why everyone has to be killable. If someone builds to be tanky he should be hard to take down. The issue is that these builds also can do decent damage still (hello proc sets). I guess a lot less people would build so tanky if they couldn’t kill anything any longer. Simply because it’s not that much fun (and gives you less AP) being a meat bag. So:

- Get rid of proc sets in PvP
- Adjust the heavy Armour sets that give damage
- Reduce defile
- Reduce healing power (that would also be good for PvE)
- Adjust high burst combinations to a more moderate level

Kelces

Imagine, how many healers you would see in trains, if this was changed. Currently it looks like about 2 healers for 1 (or at least one full and the second one would be at least spamming purge). I think that is enough.

itscompton

This has been coming for awhile. I posted this in a thread I started last August:

I recently came back after 7 months off so I was looking through the ESO fextralife wiki at sets and abilities to catch up and it really struck me how common the Major Defile debuff is in the game. Considering it's opposite buff Major Mending is now incredibly hard to get/keep up for most classes, with only a fully charged resto attack granting it for a mere 3 seconds on Temp, Sorcs and NB's, I think they should either make Major Mending easier to get and/or maintain again or reduce the number of abilities and sets that apply Major Defile. I'll freely admit I'm saying this from the point of view of a MagTemp in PvP. Not only do I have to contend with my survivability being tied to reacting by healing after taking huge damage bursts (on a laggy server to boot) I'm constantly having my healing debuffed by 30-40% from gear set bonuses, poisons, heavy attacks, class abilities and weapon abilities. Sure I can spam cleanse constantly to remove the healing Debuffs but there are so many sources and no period of immunity so I'm debuffed again almost as soon as I've hit the button which leaves me no time to do anything else and drains magic pretty quickly. It just seems to me the prevalence of healing debuffs, most specifically Major Defile, was a necessary counter from a time when Templars had Major Mending as a passive but as that's not the case anymore it really hurts us in PvP.

Some of my info was off since as I said, I had just come back to the game, but I could instantly tell when I was fighting a defile build and just a bit of research showed me how incredibly easy that type of build was to make.

Qbiken

Feanor wrote: »

I still don’t understand why everyone has to be killable. If someone builds to be tanky he should be hard to take down. The issue is that these builds also can do decent damage still (hello proc sets). I guess a lot less people would not build so tanky if they couldn’t kill anything any longer. Simply because it’s not that much fun (and gives you less AP) being a meat bag. So:

- Get rid of proc sets in PvP
- Adjust the heavy Armour sets that give damage
- Reduce defile
- Reduce healing power (that would also be good for PvE)
- Adjust high burst combinations to a more moderate level

Agree on all points but your first. Simply because it´s not going to happen. There´s around 100+ sets in the game that goes under the label as "proc-set" (both defensive and offensive ones). It´s not realistic to ban a huge majority of the sets the game has to offer. And only being allowed to use sets that stack stats would be incredibly boring if you ask me

Feanor

@Qbiken

I meant damage proc sets (like Zaan, not damage proc sets like Scathing Mage). Should have made that clearer.

BohnT

Feanor wrote: »

@Qbiken

I meant damage proc sets (like Zaan, not damage proc sets like Scathing Mage). Should have made that clearer.

They could easily fix all of them by changing them to scale properly with your stats this way tanks get the shaft and can't have good damage on top of being hard to kill.
Some other things would have to be adjusted aswell like shieldbreaker, oblivion damage infused torugs etc

IZZEFlameLash

Say, if we nerf defiles now. Wouldn't we be back to crying for healing nerfs? Sure, befoul does need some adjustments but when the nerf comes, I fear "these heals man. They are too strong" as said by someone streaming and claiming himself to be a lord will be the thing again. Poor Templars will get wrecked after defile is "balanced".

LeifErickson

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Say, if we nerf defiles now. Wouldn't we be back to crying for healing nerfs? Sure, befoul does need some adjustments but when the nerf comes, I fear "these heals man. They are too strong" as said by someone streaming and claiming himself to be a lord will be the thing again. Poor Templars will get wrecked after defile is "balanced".

Honestly Templars are already wrecked.

LeifErickson

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I disagree with the statement that defiling needs to be toned down.

Healing is absurd on high damage builds. It just doesn't make sense that stacking damage also increases healing, and defiling is one way to combat that absurdity.

Healing on high damage builds is not the problem at all. High damage builds are literally the easiest builds to kill in cyro. You don't even need defiles for them.

Murador178

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What would you people think about giving medium armor agility passive a second function that reduced healdebuffs by 30 to 50% in effectiveness?

I think not all of us main a class that doesn't care about defile because they use shields.

not all of us main a class that can access defile easily aswell

i play both heavy stam and light without annulment. my argument is based on experience with those aswell.

No worries - sorc will oneshot every openworld build next patch anyways. And the next patch sorc shields will be removed .

IAVITNI

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I disagree with the statement that defiling needs to be toned down.

Healing is absurd on high damage builds. It just doesn't make sense that stacking damage also increases healing, and defiling is one way to combat that absurdity.

So let me ask you what the counter to 100% uptime on Major Defile is on a class that doesn't have viable access to purge or class shields? 100% uptime on Major Mending? 100% uptime on Major Vitality?

And don't say Support skill line Purge. If Purge cost the same as Reverb Bash or Wyrd Tree was a generic set that cleansed you every time you were hit with a 1 second cooldown than sure. But it doesn't work that way.

Murador178

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I disagree with the statement that defiling needs to be toned down.

Healing is absurd on high damage builds. It just doesn't make sense that stacking damage also increases healing, and defiling is one way to combat that absurdity.

U may be right here - but damage will be alot higher next patch. And ALL defenses not only healing scales well with high dmg(e.g. damage shields).