PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer Balance

Derra · April 2018

King_Thelon wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

all the info ive posted hasnt once been countered by any logical stuff other than people not wanting their krutch nerfed.

DuskMarine wrote: »

zaan is perfectly fine

With this post you truely earned your name. Praise King Thelon.

Qbiken · April 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Since bound armor isn´t a toogle anymore, does the increased magicka/stamina carry over to the overload bar?
(Let say you´ve it slotted on your frontbar but not on your overload bar)

It does not carry over. Overload does not carry over anything from your normal bars, only weapon traits like nirnhoned will carry over.

I’m pretty sure traits don’t carry over to overload bar, but that might have changed. I used to play an overload build in vMA when we could stack 1000 ult and I specifically tested that because I didn’t have enough gold for sharpened 1h swords...

Or was it the twin blade and blunt passive that didn’t transfer? I can’t remember, all I remember is that I was doing as much damage with one mace and one axe as someone with two swords iirc.

Traits, enchantments and poisons are carried over but not weapon-passives.

Feanor · April 2018

Back to topic please. It’s quite funny @DuskMarine telling @Derra to test the OPness of Shields out himself. But the topic was Sorc access to buffs and debuffs.

Everyone is going to tell you that the lack of buffs and debuffs doesn’t hurt because Sorc has damage passives and gets the buff fed through group members. Well, that doesn’t help in solo play, does it? I could accept the absolute desert that Sorc access to buff is if our passives made up for it. They do not. I’m going to shamelessly recycle a post of mine in another thread because I don’t feel like writing it all over again. It’s still true.

Feanor wrote: »

Ok. Let’s have a look on these best passives in the game.

Rebate - Restore 1452 Magicka if a pet is killed. Very situational and as the base cost of a pet summon is 3495, doesn’t even refund a significant amount of the cost.

Power Stone - Reduce Ultimate cost by 15%. Very strong.

Daedric Protection - Increases health and stam recovery with a Daedric Summoning ability slotted. Nice, but not very powerful (stamSorcs seldom have one of these slotted, and magSorcs mostly run base stamina Regen).

Expert Summoner - increase health by 8% with an active pet. Again, situational, it’s nice on pet builds.

Unholy Knowledge - reduces Magicka and stamina costs of all abilities by 5%. Very good passive considering Alteration gives 6% and is a 5 pc set.

Blood magic - Hitting an enemy with a Dark Magic ability heals for 8% max health. The heal is negligible. Even with 24k health it’s a 1.920 heal before Battle Spirit. It’s not really noticeable.

Persistence - increase the duration of Dark Magic abilities by 20%. Most notably it’s an extra 2 seconds on negate and an extra 6 on mines. Not really awesome.

Exploitation - grants minor prophecy upon activating a dark magic ability. Good for group play as it’s one of the few sources of minor prophecy. However in PvP the worth of extra Spell Crit is not great.

Capacitor - Increase mag recovery by 10%. Good passive.

Energized - increase physical and shock damage by 5%. Good passive.

Implosion - 6% chance when dealing shock or physical damage to disintegrate an opponent while he is under 15% HP, dealing 4372 shock/physical damage. The most hated passive in the game I guess. A random proc execute. It‘s bad design and should be changed to something else that helps the Sorc kit.

Expert Mage - increase weapon and spell damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted. While that may sound great Sorcs are so tight on bar space (even if you consider overload) that you don’t get that much out of it.

So we have 5 really good passives. Out of 12.

Master Assassin - Increase your weapon and spell damage by 10% while you are sneaking or invisible. Stuns from sneak have a 100% duration increase.

Executioner - restore 1876 Mag or Stam if an enemy dies within 2 seconds of being damaged by an Assassination ability.

Pressure Points - increase weapon and spell crit by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted

Hemorrhage - Increase critical damage done by 10%, dealing critical damage grants you and your group minor savagery.

Refreshing Shadows - increase all recovery by 15%.

Shadow Barrier - casting a shadow ability grants Major Resolve and Major Ward for 6 seconds, duration increased by 25% for every piece of Heavy Armor.

Dark Vigor - Increase Max health by 3% for each shadow ability slotted

Dark Veil - Increase duration of shadow abilities by 15%

Catalyst - gain 20 ultimate after drinking a potion.

Magicka Flood - gain 8% Max Magicka while a siphoning ability is slotted

Soul Siphoner - Increase healing done by 3% for each siphoning ability slotted

Transfer - casting a siphoning ability generates 2 ultimate. 4 second cooldown.

I count at least 9 good ones. Out of 12. But yeah. Nerf Sorcs.

TL,DR: Sorc should have access to at least Major Breach through class skills. I don’t even ask for Major Defile (minor defile would be nice though). Improve our passives and rework Implosion. Everyone wins.

Derra · April 2018

Not really a fan of having breach as a debuff - if you really want access to breach destro staff allows for easy access with one of the strongest skills of the weaponline.

useful for the class would mostly be:
a dot
minor vulnerability
minor maim
minor protection
defile

In my opinion ofc.
I´d strongly be in favor of having cage dmg turned into 5s damage over time after effect ends and give one of the weaker debuffs on top.

I don´t think boundless storm is currently desireable for a magica sorcerer to slot. Especially with accelerate becoming available the skill seems absolutely lackluster in every regard.

Feanor · April 2018

@Derra

I understand what you’re saying, and Ele Drain is sure nice because of the sustain. I can’t find a bar slot for it though and applying it also costs a precious GCD. I agree on DoTs though. Having a DoT viable for PvP would be awesome.

Also, if you’re not running boundless, where do you get Major Expedition from? Speed pots?

Sun7dance · April 2018

Generally it shouldn't be too easy to get these debuffs on the target. Just pressing one button is just ridiculous.
Imagine all these snipers out there. They stay on range and press only one single button for huge damage and a major debuff, hallo?

Yes, i'm a stamblade and i don't mind if Incap wouldn't give major defile any longer.

To put such a huge debuff on your target, you should really work for it.
Maybe a special combo or 5 light attacks (just an example!). So you always have to decide, making damage or debuffing, but not both of them!

Derra · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Derra

I understand what you’re saying, and Ele Drain is sure nice because of the sustain. I can’t find a bar slot for it though and applying it also costs a precious GCD. I agree on DoTs though. Having a DoT viable for PvP would be awesome.

Also, if you’re not running boundless, where do you get Major Expedition from? Speed pots?

Speed pots - next patch accelerate from psijic.

Deep_01 · April 2018

Make all 3 morphs of crystal frag/blast have 35% proc chance ?

DDuke · April 2018

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

See, either the sorc one shot potential needs to go back to previous levels (imo Live server is fine, I can get back into sneak before sorcs can kill me if I play well), or their defenses need to be brought in line with other one shot builds. That's how balance works.

Feanor · April 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

See, either the sorc one shot potential needs to go back to previous levels (imo Live server is fine, I can get back into sneak before sorcs can kill me if I play well), or their defenses need to be brought in line with other one shot builds. That's how balance works.

Do you see anyone defend the proposed changes to Rune Cage? Nobody asked for it, nobody wanted it, and I certainly don’t want it in that form because we will have to pay with nerfs for 3 months of cheesy gameplay fun.

Edit: Also I’m sure you are not dying because RC has damage now. It’s the new OL in most cases. Besides, “playing well” getting into Invisibility again means hitting two buttons. “Balanced”.

Edit 2: Also landing your combo properly will kill the Sorc because he is CCed and his shield is down. Anything else is just asking for cheap(er) kills.

DDuke · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

See, either the sorc one shot potential needs to go back to previous levels (imo Live server is fine, I can get back into sneak before sorcs can kill me if I play well), or their defenses need to be brought in line with other one shot builds. That's how balance works.

Do you see anyone defend the proposed changes to Rune Cage? Nobody asked for it, nobody wanted it, and I certainly don’t want it in that form because we will have to pay with nerfs for 3 months of cheesy gameplay fun.

To quote a certain person in another thread (not gonna name & shame tho):

Eat the new cage, because I’m going to shove it so far down every nightblade throat I hope you all choke on it.

Feanor wrote: »

Edit: Also I’m sure you are not dying because RC has damage now. It’s the new OL in most cases. Besides, “playing well” getting into Invisibility again means hitting two buttons. “Balanced”.

Overload is insane burst, but all of it is dodgeable (you can't really land it with Rune Cage). What kills non-tank builds is Rune Cage+Frags (or Rune Cage+Force Pulse even), or just Rune Cage+Curse which now pulls you to Implosion/Fury range and results in an instant, unavoidable death if you're not on a high health tank build.
Tested on PTS dozens of different variations.

"Playing well" btw means avoiding streaks/det pots with good movement, spacing out your cloaks/dodge rolls properly (high damage=not infinite sustain) & actually knowing how stealth works and when you're able to go back into sneak (and not get stuck in combat). It is far from easy and most "gank builds" I meet fail at it.

Feanor wrote: »

Edit 2: Also landing your combo properly will kill the Sorc because he is CCed and his shield is down. Anything else is just asking for cheap(er) kills.

Nope, landing my full combo gets through one shield & deals maybe 2-3k damage, after which I need to get through 18k'ish health pool with Bombard & Light Attacks before Sorcerer CC breaks & recasts shield(s).

Two shields stacked & the whole combo (that can instagib 25k health 7 impen heavy armor builds on PTS btw) doesn't even reach the health bar of a sorcerer.

Feanor · April 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

See, either the sorc one shot potential needs to go back to previous levels (imo Live server is fine, I can get back into sneak before sorcs can kill me if I play well), or their defenses need to be brought in line with other one shot builds. That's how balance works.

Do you see anyone defend the proposed changes to Rune Cage? Nobody asked for it, nobody wanted it, and I certainly don’t want it in that form because we will have to pay with nerfs for 3 months of cheesy gameplay fun.

To quote a certain person in another thread (not gonna name & shame tho):

Eat the new cage, because I’m going to shove it so far down every nightblade throat I hope you all choke on it.

Feanor wrote: »

Edit: Also I’m sure you are not dying because RC has damage now. It’s the new OL in most cases. Besides, “playing well” getting into Invisibility again means hitting two buttons. “Balanced”.

Overload is insane burst, but all of it is dodgeable (you can't really land it with Rune Cage). What kills non-tank builds is Rune Cage+Frags (or Rune Cage+Force Pulse even), or just Rune Cage+Curse which now pulls you to Implosion/Fury range and results in an instant, unavoidable death if you're not on a high health tank build.
Tested on PTS dozens of different variations.

"Playing well" btw means avoiding streaks/det pots with good movement, spacing out your cloaks/dodge rolls properly (high damage=not infinite sustain) & actually knowing how stealth works and when you're able to go back into sneak (and not get stuck in combat). It is far from easy and most "gank builds" I meet fail at it.

Feanor wrote: »

Edit 2: Also landing your combo properly will kill the Sorc because he is CCed and his shield is down. Anything else is just asking for cheap(er) kills.

Nope, landing my full combo gets through one shield & deals maybe 2-3k damage, after which I need to get through 18k'ish health pool with Bombard & Light Attacks before Sorcerer CC breaks & recasts shield(s).

Two shields stacked & the whole combo (that can instagib 25k health 7 impen heavy armor builds on PTS btw) doesn't even reach the health bar of a sorcerer.

If you don’t time your burst then it’s not landing your combo properly. That’s like hitting a block casting Templar without using CC and complaining that all the damage is soaked up. StamBlades complaining about Sorcs in 2018. Wow.

DDuke · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

See, either the sorc one shot potential needs to go back to previous levels (imo Live server is fine, I can get back into sneak before sorcs can kill me if I play well), or their defenses need to be brought in line with other one shot builds. That's how balance works.

Do you see anyone defend the proposed changes to Rune Cage? Nobody asked for it, nobody wanted it, and I certainly don’t want it in that form because we will have to pay with nerfs for 3 months of cheesy gameplay fun.

To quote a certain person in another thread (not gonna name & shame tho):

Eat the new cage, because I’m going to shove it so far down every nightblade throat I hope you all choke on it.

Feanor wrote: »

Edit: Also I’m sure you are not dying because RC has damage now. It’s the new OL in most cases. Besides, “playing well” getting into Invisibility again means hitting two buttons. “Balanced”.

Overload is insane burst, but all of it is dodgeable (you can't really land it with Rune Cage). What kills non-tank builds is Rune Cage+Frags (or Rune Cage+Force Pulse even), or just Rune Cage+Curse which now pulls you to Implosion/Fury range and results in an instant, unavoidable death if you're not on a high health tank build.
Tested on PTS dozens of different variations.

"Playing well" btw means avoiding streaks/det pots with good movement, spacing out your cloaks/dodge rolls properly (high damage=not infinite sustain) & actually knowing how stealth works and when you're able to go back into sneak (and not get stuck in combat). It is far from easy and most "gank builds" I meet fail at it.

Feanor wrote: »

Edit 2: Also landing your combo properly will kill the Sorc because he is CCed and his shield is down. Anything else is just asking for cheap(er) kills.

Nope, landing my full combo gets through one shield & deals maybe 2-3k damage, after which I need to get through 18k'ish health pool with Bombard & Light Attacks before Sorcerer CC breaks & recasts shield(s).

Two shields stacked & the whole combo (that can instagib 25k health 7 impen heavy armor builds on PTS btw) doesn't even reach the health bar of a sorcerer.

If you don’t time your burst then it’s not landing your combo properly. That’s like hitting a block casting Templar without using CC and complaining that all the damage is soaked up. StamBlades complaining about Sorcs in 2018. Wow.

I'm not complaining about that.

In fact, what I'm complaining about is that while I have to stalk a sorcerer in stealth and wait until they forget to stack shields again, i.e. wait for an opportune moment (nothing wrong with that tbh), the sorcerer on PTS doesn't have to do the same.

They can simply Rune Cage+Frags & it's over, nothing I can do about that.

I can be running away from a zerg after several successful kills and then... Rune Cage, Frag - dead.

That is not fun gameplay for me.

If you don't have to time the burst (since you can just disable block/dodge roll at any time with Rune Cage), then why should I have to? Where's the balance in that?

Beardimus · April 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

no actually thats not the issue ive tested it. your "ONE DEFENSE" is not a whining topic its tested to be overperforming. if you can tank a mechanic that is meant to kill you in one shot if your not speced to be a tank there is an issue with it. there was even one point where i tested it against a buddy of mines nightblade i had a 9k shield that ate a 14k lethal arrow like it was dirt. whether that was a bug or what i dont know. but they need to be nerfed alot more than 10% a whole lot more than 10% they need taken down about 50%. wards are litterally to powerful.

Seriously? Anyone that can't counter a Sorcs ward or Sorc in.general these days is not qualified to feedback on a Sorc thread. Sorry but a 50% ward reduction suggestion is ridiculous.

How's about 50% medium.armour resistant, and 50% heavy? And 50% cloak cost increase and 50 decrease in.time. Oh nd Templars can.have a 50% heal reduction too.

Biro123 · April 2018

Not having played on the pts, but lookin gat the changes, I'm of the view that sorc got quite a big buff(especially my playstyle).

I'm not gonna argue their pro's/cons vs other classes - I'm just gonna enjoy it while it lasts.

Feanor · April 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Not having played on the pts, but lookin gat the changes, I'm of the view that sorc got quite a big buff(especially my playstyle).

I'm not gonna argue their pro's/cons vs other classes - I'm just gonna enjoy it while it lasts.

That’s shortsighted. You know what’s going to happen if it goes live that way.

Biro123 · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Not having played on the pts, but lookin gat the changes, I'm of the view that sorc got quite a big buff(especially my playstyle).

I'm not gonna argue their pro's/cons vs other classes - I'm just gonna enjoy it while it lasts.

That’s shortsighted. You know what’s going to happen if it goes live that way.

It is - but I know things rarely change based on feedback from PTS to live.

Also acknowledging the buff is probably more likely to see change than playing it down.

Emma_Overload · April 2018

I can't believe what I'm hearing!

You guys know that if they re-nerf Rune Cage before Summerset goes live, there's no guarantee whatsoever that they'll give us anything in exchange? People are going to complain about Sorcs and beg for nerfs no matter what goes live. I say we "let it ride" and see where the meta takes us.

"A bird (or buff) in the hand is worth two in the bush"

Feanor · April 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I can't believe what I'm hearing!

You guys know that if they re-nerf Rune Cage before Summerset goes live, there's no guarantee whatsoever that they'll give us anything in exchange? People are going to complain about Sorcs and beg for nerfs no matter what goes live. I say we "let it ride" and see where the meta takes us.

"A bird (or buff) in the hand is worth two in the bush"

I don’t want a buff like that because I’d lose all credibility when I want balance changes for other classes. People will complain hard if it goes live like that. And rightfully so. Or would you enjoy playing against Mass Hysteria giving 5k damage you can’t avoid?

Derra · April 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

The sorc dies in one shot if you land your combo properly.

The issue you take is that the sorc does not die while they actively defend against it - yet you do because your defense gets countered.

The problem with that approach is that your high dmg build combos from invisibility in which you can spend infinite amounts of time - contrary to sorc burst which is highly telegraphed and the sorc is visibible from beginning for a period of atleast 5s for the whole combo (countercc works here and you will not die).

DDuke · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I can't believe what I'm hearing!

You guys know that if they re-nerf Rune Cage before Summerset goes live, there's no guarantee whatsoever that they'll give us anything in exchange? People are going to complain about Sorcs and beg for nerfs no matter what goes live. I say we "let it ride" and see where the meta takes us.

"A bird (or buff) in the hand is worth two in the bush"

I don’t want a buff like that because I’d lose all credibility when I want balance changes for other classes. People will complain hard if it goes live like that. And rightfully so. Or would you enjoy playing against Mass Hysteria giving 5k damage you can’t avoid?

Atleast you can (try to) kite in order to stay out of range vs Mass Hysteria... I don't think many people will be running gap closers next patch given how much nerfs they've gotten (Ambush breaking invisibility was the last straw for me, it's gone from my stamblade's bar atleast).

Imagine a 28m targeted Mass Hysteria that deals 5k+ dmg, with a delay that allows you to land Assassin's Will with it.

That's basically what Rune Cage is at the moment.

Pre-patch it was deadly already (without the extra damage) in Meteor combos especially, now it's a guaranteed kill.

Derra · April 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I can't believe what I'm hearing!

You guys know that if they re-nerf Rune Cage before Summerset goes live, there's no guarantee whatsoever that they'll give us anything in exchange? People are going to complain about Sorcs and beg for nerfs no matter what goes live. I say we "let it ride" and see where the meta takes us.

"A bird (or buff) in the hand is worth two in the bush"

Runecage in it´s current form on live (patch 3.whatever) is too weak and not used enough.

ZOS agreed with that notion of sorc players as they buffed it because it saw very little use compared to alternatives.

The way they buffed it is controversial.

Nobody has flatout asked for cage to be brought back to its previous state. Absolutely nobody - it´s not good enough that way. It was merely pointed out that the way the skill was buffed could lead to undesireable playing experience for the victim (which would then lead to nerfs down the road again).
Having the dmg as a dot + and added snare/vunerability/breach/reduced cost would still keep the skill desireable - but not as unbalanced as it currently is.

Cage and stormarmor were my top 2 skills needing buffs for magica sorc - but the buff to cage is simply not balanced. It needs a different buff imo.

Maulkin · April 2018

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

Derra · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

Runecage in it´s current form on live isn´t good enough. The skill needs something or it won´t get used. It just doesn´t need unavoidable direct dmg.

DDuke · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

The sorc dies in one shot if you land your combo properly.

The issue you take is that the sorc does not die while they actively defend against it - yet you do because your defense gets countered.

Yes, nailed it.

It's the same as undodgeable Power Lashes were, they'd get a guaranteed kill on non-tank builds & the mDK using them wouldn't die to those non-tank builds while playing defensively.

I.e. you have one build overperforming compared to the other.

Derra wrote: »

The problem with that approach is that your high dmg build combos from invisibility in which you can spend infinite amounts of time - contrary to sorc burst which is highly telegraphed and the sorc is visibible from beginning for a period of atleast 5s for the whole combo (countercc works here and you will not die).

Stealth really doesn't matter, that sorc could just as well be sneaking & drop a Curse->Rune Cage+Frag on a non-tank build to the same effect. The difference is that most sorc players don't choose to play that way, nor do they have to (like high damage medium builds do).

That bit about CC before sorc drops combo sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work out in practice, i.e. 1vX & when you can't see the sorc, or when you're out of range to CC as not everyone has the luxury of having 28m undodgeable unblockable CCs.

Also things like CC immunity pots (or just CC immunity from a pug trying to kill that sorc) kinda screw up those plans.

It's not possible to survive vs a magicka sorc as a non-tank medium build on PTS, period.

SorataArisugawa · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I can't believe what I'm hearing!

You guys know that if they re-nerf Rune Cage before Summerset goes live, there's no guarantee whatsoever that they'll give us anything in exchange? People are going to complain about Sorcs and beg for nerfs no matter what goes live. I say we "let it ride" and see where the meta takes us.

"A bird (or buff) in the hand is worth two in the bush"

I don’t want a buff like that because I’d lose all credibility when I want balance changes for other classes. People will complain hard if it goes live like that. And rightfully so. Or would you enjoy playing against Mass Hysteria giving 5k damage you can’t avoid?

Well, I didn't thought that would happen, but I have to agree with you here. We can't just go with the flow, if it suits us but causes the same problems on a other field which we complained about before. If it really hits for such an high amount of DMG, it sould be nerved. Even 5k hits would be a little bit harsh, but 10k?... Not acceptable. We should ask for a reasonable buff instead!

DDuke · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

Well, the thing with Frags is (was) that they're also part of the burst combo & definitely were hitting too hard before.

By moving the burst from Rune Cage to Frags you don't fix the problem, you only move the burst from one part of the combo to the other (i.e. the guaranteed Frag landing that Rune Cage provides).

ToRelax · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

I don't think a small damage buff on fragments and major breach on the following skills is worth as much as the damage on rune cage.
If we had a powerful DoT in dark magic, either on Rune Cage or Shattering Prison (on one target), that would help with pressure and survivability (blood magic + surge) without buffing burst or shields.

Better access to buffs/debuffs should just be a given, tbh.

Maulkin · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

Runecage in it´s current form on live isn´t good enough. The skill needs something or it won´t get used. It just doesn´t need unavoidable direct dmg.

I definitely agree on the first sentence. I don't use it at all and I hardly know a competent Sorc that does, everyone uses masterreach.

I don't have disk space for PTS sadly, so I have no experience of how the new version performs. I still have my doubts that it'll be used to be honest. Even with this big buff.

I'm pretty sure it won't in no-CP content. Power Surge (can't use spell pots, need tripots), Dark Conversion (lack of sustain) and Light's Champion (over Overload) are all very essential to both your damage and your survival in that content. If you plan to drop Frags your damage output outside of ultie combo goes down by quite a lot, especially against CC immune targets that you can't Cage (and therefore damage).

I'm just not sure how they buff that skill so that it's not too much, while also making sure it's not useless at the same time. If you take the damage away and give it a buff/debuff, would you use it? I don't think I would.

Joy_Division · April 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

See, either the sorc one shot potential needs to go back to previous levels (imo Live server is fine, I can get back into sneak before sorcs can kill me if I play well), or their defenses need to be brought in line with other one shot builds. That's how balance works.

I don't think it would be balanced if your stam NB and sorc could one-shot each other.