I worry that Imbue Weapons and all of these light attack buffs will exclude melee magicka PvP builds

NightbladeMechanics · April 2018

The problem:
Light attacks with 2h, dw, and snb scale with weapon damage currently, and stamina and weapon damage on PTS. With significant light attack buffs coming, running one of these lines over a destro staff will equate to a significant damage loss from weaving.

I also recognize that stamina is stronger than magicka on live, and it appears that ZOS is addressing this in large part with the light attack buffs -- but these will only buff staff builds.

Where's ZOS going with it?
Does ZOS consider magicka builds using melee weapon lines to be a "stat stick," such as using dual wield for higher spell damage and raw stats alone rather than a functional magicka skill line? I could understand this, but I advise that many players choose melee weapons for the play style or appearance over raw stats.

But melee magicka is a distinct build archetype...
I enjoy the look and feel of melee magicka nightblade, magplar, and mDK. Holding two swords out to your sides as you brawl with enemies is fun for me. These classes are also partially designed to fight in melee range, with melee abilities.

Solutions?
Reduce the spell damage gained from dual wield if you don't want it to be a "stat stick."

Consider making all light attacks scale with and deal adaptive damage to your higher stats.

Or give us a true melee magicka skill line, as has been requested for years.

Thoughts?

@LeifErickson @Quantum_V

Jeezye · April 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

And consider making all light attacks scale with and deal adaptive damage to your higher stats.

This is what I think it should always have been. Play whatever you like, however you like. Also I'm a big fan of unique/diverse builds so running a staff on a stamden or running strong light attacks on my s/b magblade would be really fun to play.

Right now it really limits build effeciency and therefor diversity..

Aerem · April 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Or give us a true melee magicka skill line, as has been requested for years.

This

Ishammael · April 2018

Can I have a staff + shield?!

exeeter702 · April 2018

Ishammael wrote: »

Can I have a staff + shield?!

No. Now get back in your cage.

Dracane · April 2018

Not quite correct. Stamina has significantly higher weapon damage values than magicka, thus stamina light attacks scale much better at the moment. Magicka does not have that much spell damage, but more max stats. So while it's true that the changes results in magicka profitting the most from this, as they finally scale equally.... Stamina profits from it too. Your stamina pool still buffs your light attack more than it did so far.

So all this really achieves, is that it's more balanced between the 2 now and no longer in favor of stamina. The gap will be closed now, that's it.

LeifErickson · April 2018

I definitely agree and in addition am also worried about two hand weapons getting two set slots. This change will also hurt magicka builds who don't run staff.

sneakymitchell · April 2018

Dual wield you get two enchantments. Two handed gets one.
Trait same thing. Dual wield two. Two hander one.

Minno · April 2018

Aerem wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Or give us a true melee magicka skill line, as has been requested for years.

This

Also add an unarmed skilline. My "monk" needs a disarm skill

Vaoh · April 2018

They’ve been hammering away at my DW Mag Sorc nearly every patch for the last two years. Summerset finally kills off my favorite playstyle

I mean there’s not much that can be done. Just gotta accept it and move forward, or quit.

Stam builds run Bow, DW, 2H, 1H/S
Mag builds run Staves (and despite setbacks, the occasional 2H for OP asf Forward Momentum)

That’s how ZOS envisions their game atm. No room to do anything differently. DW Mag builds are gone.

Minno · April 2018

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Dual wield you get two enchantments. Two handed gets one.
Trait same thing. Dual wield two. Two hander one.

But attacks only proc the main enchant and you have to weave in light/heavy attacks with a 50% RNG to proc the offhand.

Granted dual weld gives you access to two 5pc sets at once, but it's clear DW mag builds are being excluded.

NBrookus · April 2018

Agreed. Staff on a PVP mDK just isn't feeling right to me. There's nothing in the class build that is ranged. You can go full staff build but then you don't have the mobility of a sorc or NB nor the ranged skills (such as they are) of a templar.

LeifErickson · April 2018

I also forgot to mention that this weakens block builds because you can't light attack while blocking and these builds are already highly disadvantaged from having no mobility.

Royaji · April 2018

I'm pretty sure ZOS pretty explicitly stated that they do not like DW on magicka builds. They were making them less and less viable every patch for like a year - year and a half. Now with staves counting as 2 pieces there is very little reason to run DW on a mag build. The last one being for "the looks". It sucks but they seem to be pretty dead set on eradicating magicka DW.

Malthorne · April 2018

I’d like to see a magicka melee skill line and passives using either 1 hand + rune or staff + shield

Lexxypwns · April 2018

I really don’t see a point to use DW on a magika build next patch with the way things are presently on PTS. 2h and SnB both have something interesting to offer.

There’s nothing saying that equipping a staff makes you a ranged build though...

NightbladeMechanics · April 2018

Dracane wrote: »

Not quite correct. Stamina has significantly higher weapon damage values than magicka, thus stamina light attacks scale much better at the moment. Magicka does not have that much spell damage, but more max stats. So while it's true that the changes results in magicka profitting the most from this, as they finally scale equally.... Stamina profits from it too. Your stamina pool still buffs your light attack more than it did so far.

So all this really achieves, is that it's more balanced between the 2 now and no longer in favor of stamina. The gap will be closed now, that's it.

You're restating what I already said.

It will be more balanced between the two post-patch, except you'll need to be using a staff build in order to benefit from the light attack buffs as magicka builds. Magicka builds who choose not to use staves will be left even further behind than they already are on live.

FirstNationJustice · April 2018

imbue weapons works well with melee weapons, if you know what you are doing

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2018

I think ZoS should consider coming up with a melee-based magic skill line if only so players can have that play style. I do believe there are a lot of ways they could go about this, and they could certainly base motifs off 'one handed' or such.

Joy_Division · April 2018

Well, DW light attacks for a mag build don't even hit like a wet noodle so that's not really changing.

I know people like DW, but it should actually make sense and I'd rather have ZOS do it right than nerf stuff just so magicka builds using stamina weapons that scale with stamina stats don;t feel left out in the cold.

I mean, why do only swords carry over their 5% damage? Why don't daggers give crit? The whole thing was inconsistent to begin with.

I always though there should be a Arcane trait that would make "stamina" weapons scale off magicka's stats, so this way the battlewizard archetype is actually a thing and the basic attacks would actually be an integral part of the build.

mr_wazzabi · April 2018

Royaji wrote: »

I'm pretty sure ZOS pretty explicitly stated that they do not like DW on magicka builds. They were making them less and less viable every patch for like a year - year and a half. Now with staves counting as 2 pieces there is very little reason to run DW on a mag build. The last one being for "the looks". It sucks but they seem to be pretty dead set on eradicating magicka DW.

Did they give a reason for that?

Aren't spellswords a staple of the Elder Scrolls universe?

Faulgor · April 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Or give us a true melee magicka skill line, as has been requested for years.

Thoughts?

@LeifErickson @Quantum_V

What I really want are new enchantments that change the element of your weapon, so you can have a sword that deals fire damage instead of physical, scales with spell damage/magicka and recovers magicka on heavy attacks. Likewise, poison staffs might be fun, too.

Enchantment didn't get an update since Imperial City over 2 years ago. Alchemy got new ingredients with Summerset, and the other professions get new stuff almost every patch.

But it seems ZOS is adamant to reserve stamina weapons for stamina builds and staffs for magicka builds.

Dracane · April 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Not quite correct. Stamina has significantly higher weapon damage values than magicka, thus stamina light attacks scale much better at the moment. Magicka does not have that much spell damage, but more max stats. So while it's true that the changes results in magicka profitting the most from this, as they finally scale equally.... Stamina profits from it too. Your stamina pool still buffs your light attack more than it did so far.

So all this really achieves, is that it's more balanced between the 2 now and no longer in favor of stamina. The gap will be closed now, that's it.

You're restating what I already said.

It will be more balanced between the two post-patch, except you'll need to be using a staff build in order to benefit from the light attack buffs as magicka builds. Magicka builds who choose not to use staves will be left even further behind than they already are on live.

This is unfortunately true.
Personally I'm happy though, that I am no longer forced to run dual wield if I want an optimal damage setup.

NightbladeMechanics · April 2018

Dracane wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Not quite correct. Stamina has significantly higher weapon damage values than magicka, thus stamina light attacks scale much better at the moment. Magicka does not have that much spell damage, but more max stats. So while it's true that the changes results in magicka profitting the most from this, as they finally scale equally.... Stamina profits from it too. Your stamina pool still buffs your light attack more than it did so far.

So all this really achieves, is that it's more balanced between the 2 now and no longer in favor of stamina. The gap will be closed now, that's it.

You're restating what I already said.

It will be more balanced between the two post-patch, except you'll need to be using a staff build in order to benefit from the light attack buffs as magicka builds. Magicka builds who choose not to use staves will be left even further behind than they already are on live.

This is unfortunately true.
Personally I'm happy though, that I am no longer forced to run dual wield if I want an optimal damage setup.

I'd prefer they balance the game and preserve build diversity. I prefer options and "play how you want" and having functional melee weapon lines with different functions and aesthetics than ranged ones.

Dracane · April 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Not quite correct. Stamina has significantly higher weapon damage values than magicka, thus stamina light attacks scale much better at the moment. Magicka does not have that much spell damage, but more max stats. So while it's true that the changes results in magicka profitting the most from this, as they finally scale equally.... Stamina profits from it too. Your stamina pool still buffs your light attack more than it did so far.

So all this really achieves, is that it's more balanced between the 2 now and no longer in favor of stamina. The gap will be closed now, that's it.

You're restating what I already said.

It will be more balanced between the two post-patch, except you'll need to be using a staff build in order to benefit from the light attack buffs as magicka builds. Magicka builds who choose not to use staves will be left even further behind than they already are on live.

This is unfortunately true.
Personally I'm happy though, that I am no longer forced to run dual wield if I want an optimal damage setup.

I'd prefer they balance the game and preserve build diversity. I prefer options and "play how you want" and having functional melee weapon lines with different functions and aesthetics than ranged ones.

Honestly though, the game has never been really balanced around options. There was always 1 thing being the best and all other options resulted in gimping yourself.

I'm not defending it, but I grew used to that and am happy that I can settle down with my prefered weapon type (staff) and don't need to worry about being in a disadvantage.

Baconlad · April 2018

All they need to do is what they did to the frost staff.
Add a passive that turns light attacks to scaling off of magic and spell damage and heavy attacks give magic back...easy. don't know why they havnt done it yet.

Minno · April 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Well, DW light attacks for a mag build don't even hit like a wet noodle so that's not really changing.

I know people like DW, but it should actually make sense and I'd rather have ZOS do it right than nerf stuff just so magicka builds using stamina weapons that scale with stamina stats don;t feel left out in the cold.

I mean, why do only swords carry over their 5% damage? Why don't daggers give crit? The whole thing was inconsistent to begin with.

I always though there should be a Arcane trait that would make "stamina" weapons scale off magicka's stats, so this way the battlewizard archetype is actually a thing and the basic attacks would actually be an integral part of the build.

I agree. Then my Templar whose skills have two damage types in the tooltip won't have to select which tooltip part to buff and which part to have hit like a wet noodle.

I mean, Unstable Core's AOE is only buffed by fire staff but the defensive mechanic DMG is buffed by lighting. So frustrating trying to deal DMG by picking a staff when swords boost both tooltip numbers higher than picking one staff.

Asardes · April 2018

Having 2 sets active on front bar was the only reason for running 2W. This will be gone with Summerset and I'm actually glad:
- lightning staff buffs AoE skills by 8% while inferno buffs ST ones by 8% 2W gives flat 5% increase if you run swords
- running 2W only results in getting slightly higher spell damage vs. staff you you're running nirnhoned main hand compared to a staff in other trait; nirnhoned main hand sword vs. nirnhoned staff the difference is very small
- 2W LA scales off weapon damage and maximum magicka, and it will scale even more with the latter
- 2W HA returns stamina instead of magicka, so a rotation is very hard to maintain if you actually need to do 1-2 HA in it
- If you plan on running a dropped set front bar, farming those swords is twice the hassle of farming a staff

Kilandros · April 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Or give us a true melee magicka skill line, as has been requested for years.

pls zos pls

exeeter702 · April 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

I always though there should be a Arcane trait that would make "stamina" weapons scale off magicka's stats, so this way the battlewizard archetype is actually a thing and the basic attacks would actually be an integral part of the build.

And i would finally be able to bring my Herald of Xotli back to life in a new mmo *wipes tear

Truthfully, i tried to suggest something like this in the beta as it made so much sense for this game (at the time).

NyassaV · April 2018

@ZOS_Wrobel Just make light attack damage do a scaled amount with whatever stat is higher