Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Need a stam whip ZOS. Stam dk is dead right now, and will remain dead even after the changes seen in patch notes unless you do more. Really would like to be able to deal dmg open world pvp.

ecru wrote: »

i like how we can't have any discussion about stamdk in pve because everything is drowned out by pvp discussion

oh well

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

i like how we can't have any discussion about stamdk in pve because everything is drowned out by pvp discussion

oh well

For the most part sDK is fine in PVE, the new bloodthirsty trait for jewelry might bring them down on the dps totem though.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

i like how we can't have any discussion about stamdk in pve because everything is drowned out by pvp discussion

oh well

For the most part sDK is fine in PVE, the new bloodthirsty trait for jewelry might bring them down on the dps totem though.

It will for sure bring them down to the bottom of the dps pool, only above Warden. Aside from Warden, it will be all stam/mag dps > StamDK. Frankly, this sucks. I main a StamDK, which I've put a lot of effort into, and I don't want to feel like I'm dead weight once a trial boss hits 25%, but that seems to be where Summerset is taking us.

I don't know if it's "fine", certainly viable, but not something people will be jumping at the chance to play. I have pvp'd a small amount on my StamDK, and while it's not enough to offer as much input as a lot here, I felt like it suffered from identity issues just as it does in pve. I see SDK as a pressure-based dps class, with pressure in the form of dots (claw, breath), but at the same time (correct me if I'm wrong) claw can just be purged off and breath is unreliable/can also be purged off.

StamDK could use a bit more in the pressure department while adding more class identity (more dot pressure, poison?) to flesh out the class a bit. I don't really have a great idea as to how this would be implemented though. For PVP, if I'm correct about claw/breath being purgeable, why not start with just making the dots unable to be removed?

Well Idk maybe the class is just meant to be a tank? In other games usually purge spamming dots was bad since they had a mechanic where purging the dot early would trigger the dot to burst for the full damage.

ak_pvp wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

i like how we can't have any discussion about stamdk in pve because everything is drowned out by pvp discussion

oh well

For the most part sDK is fine in PVE, the new bloodthirsty trait for jewelry might bring them down on the dps totem though.

It will for sure bring them down to the bottom of the dps pool, only above Warden. Aside from Warden, it will be all stam/mag dps > StamDK. Frankly, this sucks. I main a StamDK, which I've put a lot of effort into, and I don't want to feel like I'm dead weight once a trial boss hits 25%, but that seems to be where Summerset is taking us.

I don't know if it's "fine", certainly viable, but not something people will be jumping at the chance to play. I have pvp'd a small amount on my StamDK, and while it's not enough to offer as much input as a lot here, I felt like it suffered from identity issues just as it does in pve. I see SDK as a pressure-based dps class, with pressure in the form of dots (claw, breath), but at the same time (correct me if I'm wrong) claw can just be purged off and breath is unreliable/can also be purged off.

StamDK could use a bit more in the pressure department while adding more class identity (more dot pressure, poison?) to flesh out the class a bit. I don't really have a great idea as to how this would be implemented though. For PVP, if I'm correct about claw/breath being purgeable, why not start with just making the dots unable to be removed?

I doubt it'd be that bad. IIRC StamDK was parsing 70k on that test they did. (Where MDK was top with 73k) but they might not be top dog anymore, since you can't get super-optimized groups with NMG/Sunder/Morag. Stamplar and warden will still parse less. On the upside, StamDK has a really easy rotation, which will be better for certain mechanic heavy fights.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

MyKillv2.0 wrote: »

DK Skill Changes Thoughts... (just my thoughts, whatever)

Cauterize (Inferno morph): Nice for the increased range but the heal is still rather weak. I would much rather have the massive burst heal be from this skill or the heal be reduced to every three seconds. Either or I think would do the trick. However in it's current state the heal it too little and too long a wait.

Idk about you but a heal that easilu crits for 7k in pvp and 16k in pve in trials, for under 2k magicka is not weak and that isnt even considering how easy it is for dks to augment on demand heals with major mending. The wait factor is also entirely redundant since you hit the ability at any point and it will immediately fire the heal. Remaining passively active to spot heal while you are doing other actions is the additional perk. Just for comparison....




Again there are way too many people putting this under the lense of how it effects certain dk specs that these skills arent even designed for. Cauterize is very good and the 28 meter buff along with the significant projectile speed buff it recently received will make this a very formidable healing ability.

i'm curoius, what were your stats and buffs for the cauterize tooltip?
because using the same stats on templar and magdk leaves me with a 11k tooltip on breath of life and a 6,2k tooltip on cauterize. either those two screenshots were taken with a totally different setup that is vastly biased or something else is going on.
would like to know whats the issue here.

Just for clarity...

Active buffs and effects that effect tool tip

SPC 5 piece
Major Sorcery
Minor Sorcery Templar in group
2% healing done monster set
2% healing done Jorvuld's
9% healing done Powered Resto staff
Ritual Mundus
5% healing done Argonian passive
14% healing done 75 pts in blessed
Major mending for the cauterize tool tip
Minor mending for the BOL tool tip




ah, thank you.
minor mending for BOL and major mending for Cauterize.
so when both have the same buffs, BOL is leagues ahead in raw healing power.
really was wondering why my own tooltips were so different from yours.
so the first tooltips you posted were extremely biased.

MyKillv2.0 wrote: »

DK Skill Changes Thoughts... (just my thoughts, whatever)

Cauterize (Inferno morph): Nice for the increased range but the heal is still rather weak. I would much rather have the massive burst heal be from this skill or the heal be reduced to every three seconds. Either or I think would do the trick. However in it's current state the heal it too little and too long of wait.
Combustion: Nice addition, even though I chuckled at the fact that you gave one of the best sustain classes in the game even more sustain. No complaints for the extra sugar...
Empowering Chains: Since it is a skill I rarely ever use, I really honesty don't know about this. I will have to try it out in PvP, the gap closer plus whip/la spam will help I would imagine. Could be useful, I just do not know how much since it is not my playground.
Shifting Standard: The decrease is ok but I think it should have been reverted back to its original cost of 200. Maybe even 175. At 225 cost, I believe that the cost is still too close to destro/standard ulti, which are just better. I am not saying that you even need to buff the damage but I do think it you want it to be a valid second option, it needs more uptime for magDPS. 225 is still too much. I would go for 175 myself.
Reflective Plate (Reflective Scale morph): Similar to shifting standard, I agree with the idea of the change but I believe the dev team just simply stopped too short to make the change effective. I like the removal of snares but I think they should also add a 4/6sec speed boost/snare immune. In its current form, I do not believe it is strong enough to move a lot of people over to this morph.
Cinder Storm (Ash Cloud morph): I would like to see the amount this heals for but if the amount is close to grand healing, the move is awesome! It will not be BiS for all cases but in instances where the boss is in one spot... this long term heal is nice in combination with healing springs.
Obsidian Shard (Stonefist morph): This is where they put the burst DK heal, which I don't mind. In solo play, this is quite nice. No complaints.
Obsidian Shield: This is the best example of how a skill should work. Once is clearly a pvp morph, the other a healer morph. Great move all around.
Shattering Rocks (Petrify morph): Another solid choice. I could defiantly see pvp dks torn between these two morphs. Awesome job, I cannot wait to try out this morph.

Overall some great changes for mDKs and even better, no nerfs for either tank and stam/mDKs! I feel they stopped too short on the Shifting Standard & Reflective Plate changes but the Earthen Heart changes are top notch. Cinder Storm could put DK healers as respectable off healer roles in craglorn trials and any dungeon that is not moble in nature (so like most all non DLC stuff). I hope over the next few weeks, they look at Standard and Reflective and add a little more to these skills. I made my suggestions but the team may have their own ideas in mind that could make these two skills more appealing.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Earthen Heart

• Ash Cloud: This ability now heals you and your allies in the area and snares enemies; note the Eruption morph remains unchanged.
• Cinder Storm (Ash Cloud morph): This morph now increases the healing done.

This ability is a mess btw. There are already way too many heals in this game, that goes for all classes, but especially the magDK did not need another lackluster aoe heal over time.

First of all, let's just look at how many DK class skill already have a heal attached:

1. Obsidian Shard
2. Flame/Power Lash
3. Burning Ember
4. Cauterize
5. Dragon Blood
6. Inhale
7. And now also Cinder Storm

This class absolutely did not need a 7th healing skill. We also did not need more snares to become focus. The MagDK already has plenty of snares and roots, and slapping a lackluster, slow heal on an AoE snare doesn't make it any more appealing. What we did need, though, was an AoE DoT in your class kit that was at least somewhat unique and useful, like Liquid Lightning, Path of Darkness and Shards/Ritual. Those are class AoE DoTs with interesting secondary effects.

Eruption? Costs are higher than other, similar class AoEs, damage is much lower, and the only secondary effect is snare, of which we already have too many in this game, and especially as MagDKs. The only reason you use it on a magDK PvE rotation is because you have little else to put on your bar, it has somewhat long duration and is very much fire-and-forget, plus it procs for a bit of ult gain.

What you should have done was given Eruption more initial damage and slightly higher DoT ticks, lowering the costs to make cost/damage similar to other class AoE skills, while giving Cinder Storm no initial damage, less damage DoT ticks and a secondary effect such as major evasion to the DK and maybe minor evasion to allies while they are all standing in the AoE.

That would have made for some interesting choice between damage and utility/defense, and made this a strong class skill. Instead you slapped a useless HoT on a morph no one uses on a class that had 6 other class healing skills and called it a day.

This is a do-over.

You are in the wrong mindset plain and simple. Stop lumping self survival tools like ember, lash and coagblood with healing tools meant to support groups.

MagDK has 3 specifically self healing abilities and 3 healing abilities for DK healers to potentially utilize. Aoe group heal (which is quite good atm on the pts), is not meant for your solo self magdk echoing chamber.

Change the other morph to provide more oomph for mag dks if need be, but your directed, misinformed rage at them improving DK healers is not the right angle to take.

ak_pvp wrote: »

OK, with that out of the way. Can we give DK some useful functions for PvP. Sustain is good now, mainly a PvE change, but still useful for PvP.

As I have stated. "Tank class" is outdated and wrong. Warden and templar do tanking as good or better, with worthwhile class defenses, and nb/sorc have better class defenses and mobility.

Block is needed to unsustainability against two or more people. The defense passives are weak, and all together worse than minor protection, since one is while block is up only, (only the blocked attacks) and the other is spell resistance only.

Both DKs need more defense. Wings. They have been snipped. They need some glue and a bandaid. 4 attacks is 1s against two ranged targets, for 4k mag, and so much doesn't get reflected. (bird now should, its like a normal projectile)

Base morph. 3 reflects per person, 4s uptime. Worse 1v1, better for openworld. (possible change. Base morph and plate work only like deflects/absorbs, so less offensive, but then are 4 projectiles per person. )

Fire scale: Guarantees burning on targets the projectile reflects to. (no matter the race/shields) this becomes the offensive morph. If base is turned to a deflect, then this one stays a reflect.


Plate: The latest snare removal change was completely unusable, unlike something like mist>cloak, or purging dots, DK has nothing to prevent snares post removal. If you have a DK dot on you, prepare for snare. 4s snare immunity, worse than FM, and less tank than mist.

At that point MagDK would be good for OW. (maybe revert the dodge nerf, was way too painful)

StamDK needs heavy thematic buffs. Volatile or hardened armour poison damage and scale of highest state, but maintain mag cost for stam convenience. Burning talons becomes poisonous talons and stam. Tanks need other for PvE. Deep breath becomes stamina/poison, and sets targets hit with the explode off-balance. I don't think poison whip is needed, because with poison talons, dizzy can land better. (deep, talons and dizzy +leap seems cool) But if any better StamDKs want to comment.

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Integral1900
That 73k number is indeed mythical as I believe it came from the streamers who visited ZOS and they stated it was during a dev server where they had 100% raid buff up-time. So I'm sure they went with Max magicka/max magicka regen food (another unrealistic thing to do in end game content) along with 100% raid buffs I could see that.

This is also ignoring the setup because if they used infused on jewelry... well there's a glitch with infused giving unrealistic numbers e.g. the video showing one guy literally bash and had a parse of 37k.

Dragath wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

MyKillv2.0 wrote: »

DK Skill Changes Thoughts... (just my thoughts, whatever)

Cauterize (Inferno morph): Nice for the increased range but the heal is still rather weak. I would much rather have the massive burst heal be from this skill or the heal be reduced to every three seconds. Either or I think would do the trick. However in it's current state the heal it too little and too long a wait.

Idk about you but a heal that easilu crits for 7k in pvp and 16k in pve in trials, for under 2k magicka is not weak and that isnt even considering how easy it is for dks to augment on demand heals with major mending. The wait factor is also entirely redundant since you hit the ability at any point and it will immediately fire the heal. Remaining passively active to spot heal while you are doing other actions is the additional perk. Just for comparison....




Again there are way too many people putting this under the lense of how it effects certain dk specs that these skills arent even designed for. Cauterize is very good and the 28 meter buff along with the significant projectile speed buff it recently received will make this a very formidable healing ability.

i'm curoius, what were your stats and buffs for the cauterize tooltip?
because using the same stats on templar and magdk leaves me with a 11k tooltip on breath of life and a 6,2k tooltip on cauterize. either those two screenshots were taken with a totally different setup that is vastly biased or something else is going on.
would like to know whats the issue here.

Just for clarity...

Active buffs and effects that effect tool tip

SPC 5 piece
Major Sorcery
Minor Sorcery Templar in group
2% healing done monster set
2% healing done Jorvuld's
9% healing done Powered Resto staff
Ritual Mundus
5% healing done Argonian passive
14% healing done 75 pts in blessed
Major mending for the cauterize tool tip
Minor mending for the BOL tool tip




ah, thank you.
minor mending for BOL and major mending for Cauterize.
so when both have the same buffs, BOL is leagues ahead in raw healing power.
really was wondering why my own tooltips were so different from yours.
so the first tooltips you posted were extremely biased.

Carbonised wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Another bit of constructive feedback, @ZOS_GinaBruno

While testing on the PTS this morning- I began to realize that DK healer skills like Obsidian Shard, Ash Cloud, and Cauterize don't proc the Burning Status. Therefore, DK healers are not benefiting from the new Combustion Passive whatsoever.

I'd suggest adding a small amount of flame damage to these abilities just to assist with Combustion. Perhaps an initial hit or a small DOT.

Cheers.

It's pretty much exactly what I said 4 pages back (before all the off topic sidetracking and bickering) - DK healing skills do not proc any of the class passives, so perhaps they should stop this current fad about converting more and more damage skills into healing. The only thing proc'ing from Shard and Cinder are the ult gain and stam return simply for being Earthern Heart, and as you say, the mag return isn't being proc'ed by a single healing DK skill. I play a MagDK tank, so I will be proc'ing it now and then, but most DK tanks are more stam oriented, and won't run any fire or poison based skills, apart from Engulfing if you're in a min/max trial group. Most tanks build won't benefit from it either.

Cauterize has the dubious honour of being the only Ardent Flame skill that doesn't proc a single passive in the skill tree, because Ardent Flame was designed in the beginning as a fire damage tree.

With all the converting damage skills into healing skills, as well as removing several DoTs such as the old Inferno, the DK passives are extremely out of date, and really need to be updated eventually.

ecru wrote: »

i like how we can't have any discussion about stamdk in pve because everything is drowned out by pvp discussion

oh well

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I see no problem with changing Molten Whip to Poisoned Lash or something like that.