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PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Nightblade Balance
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BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Murador178 wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »@Daus
We get it. Buffs only or get out of the thread. If that's your definition of constructive feedback then the thread could as well just be closed as there is nothing to discuss other than the magnitude of buffs. If you perceive Nightbksde as being in need of buffs it could be a) the class does need it or b) you're not a good Nightblade. I guess with most people defending the class b) is more likely.
After all the buffs to magicka you really come in here to demand nerfs? They could give sorc an atomic bomb and you would still complain about nightblades.
Umm.. They actually DID give Sorc an atomic bomb.
Head to PTS, it’s hilarious.
You mean empowered overload?
That or the messed up 2H ultimate scaling with 50K Max Magicka.
Rune cage + ultimate that hits for 27K+ = Sorc nerf threads!
You know they’ll fix these though..
sorc got alot of 1 shot possibilities vs non full tanks - even ones requiring no ultimate.
" sorc is finally balanced" ~Forum sorcs2 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »@Daus
We get it. Buffs only or get out of the thread. If that's your definition of constructive feedback then the thread could as well just be closed as there is nothing to discuss other than the magnitude of buffs. If you perceive Nightbksde as being in need of buffs it could be a) the class does need it or b) you're not a good Nightblade. I guess with most people defending the class b) is more likely.
After all the buffs to magicka you really come in here to demand nerfs? They could give sorc an atomic bomb and you would still complain about nightblades.
Umm.. They actually DID give Sorc an atomic bomb.
Head to PTS, it’s hilarious.
You mean empowered overload?
That or the messed up 2H ultimate scaling with 50K Max Magicka.
Rune cage + ultimate that hits for 27K+ = Sorc nerf threads!
You know they’ll fix these though..
I bet they won't change anything about that 2h
And i guarantee that in those nerf mag sorc post sorcs will say it's balanced and nb gankers will say that no one should be able to do this much damage
The irony would be funny at least, even if they aren’t bright enough to see the humor.
Meanwhile, I’m off to craft myself a two-hander! Edited by Minalan on April 19, 2018 9:24PM0 -
akray21✭✭✭✭✭#1 Why do we have to evaluate class balance based on the top 5% of PvPers?
#2 I'm tired of everyone assuming all Stambaldes play medium and trying to balance around that without thinking about the impact on the heavy armor playstyle.Edited by akray21 on April 19, 2018 10:18PM3 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The most appropriate change you could make to Strife is to have it match the magicka to damage ratio that Force Pulse has. They each have their own merits but having strife match the cost of Force Pulse is not a balanced change unless you have the damage of Strife match that of Force Pulse. By making this change you are effectively killing a class's spammable, and removing its uniqueness.
Doesn't Strife offer a self-heal? Because I know Force Pulse doesn't... and for solo players, that self-heal can be very important to survival. So while Force Pulse may offer more damage, it doesn't offer the ability to help keep you alive... and that may be why they are upping the cost- because Strife gives damage AND healing whereas FP is only good for damage.CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~0 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Unlike Sorc, Dk and high sustain warden, magblade cannot change to heavy attack build ,the overall performance will huge drop after Zos increase strife cost 40%, the whole NB design will be broken.
Zos, u made a big mistake .
But I believe Zos will adjust the strife cost at the final,from 40 to 20, maybe half year when summerset launch, just like Malevolent Offering , when it came out, the HP cost was too high, Zos ignore our voices , adjust the cost about half year later. They run it even they know it was wrong lol.
No matter How, I will change to play my mag sorc most of the time , easy rotation with high surivibility and reasonable sustain.
What I learn in ESO, u work hard u get better result and u get nerf again.
But I won't step on other class thread and shout.4 -
Mannox✭✭✭I challenge anyone who hasn't played a Nightblade to play one and seriously compare them to their main or other characters. No class in the game is more difficult to play. It's not a small curve either.4 -
Mannox✭✭✭By the way I don't know if it has been mentioned already but Malevolent Offering cancels Shadow Cloak. It cancels SC on cast. It also cancels SC on tick if SC is cast after MO.
Pretty laughable. Oh and to add another note.: Malevolent Offering heals for less than it costs if it doesn't crit. Still testing to see if the DoT ticks can crit the caster because that would just add to the laugh track of this absolutely horrendous skill.Edited by Mannox on April 20, 2018 12:55AM1 -
Revokus✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_Wrobel Please consider adding snare removal and short snare immunity to double take.Ranged magicka nightblade really need this in open world..anything breaks you out of cloak these days.Playing since January 23, 20165 -
mr_wazzabi✭✭✭✭✭
✭The most appropriate change you could make to Strife is to have it match the magicka to damage ratio that Force Pulse has. They each have their own merits but having strife match the cost of Force Pulse is not a balanced change unless you have the damage of Strife match that of Force Pulse. By making this change you are effectively killing a class's spammable, and removing its uniqueness.
Doesn't Strife offer a self-heal? Because I know Force Pulse doesn't... and for solo players, that self-heal can be very important to survival. So while Force Pulse may offer more damage, it doesn't offer the ability to help keep you alive... and that may be why they are upping the cost- because Strife gives damage AND healing whereas FP is only good for damage.
Force pulse is unreflectable, benefits from Altmer and Dunmer elemental passives and is 3 hits each cast, tripling the chance of procs activating. It also gives status effects. It also benefits from destro staff passives.
Strife does less damage and heals. It might help with some class passives, but added cost makes FP a better overall skill.
Strife nerf is bad for build diversity. Period.
Edited by mr_wazzabi on April 20, 2018 1:13AMBosmer Stamina NB
Altmer Magicka TEMP
Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
Altmer Magicka NB
Breton Magicka Sorc
Redguard Stam Sorc
Max CP5 -
qwyksylver✭✭Rair.Kitani wrote: »My first approach would be to limit the proc of merciless resolve to 2 times per cast. Only those top players are able to reliable proc it three times per cast, and thats the true reason why they get so high parses.
Please ZoS whatever you do NOT THIS. Those of us who have struggled and practiced and practiced some more to be able to reliably hit 3 bows per cast do so because of the challenge, that's part of what has always made magblades fun to play was the skill ceiling it provided (or general lack thereof)
Kazim Udar - CP 750 Nightblade PC/NA vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL - vHoF - vAS - vCR+20 -
Killset✭✭✭✭
LOL... Hitting Incap 9/10 times? This tells me everything I need to know about you. You are a tourist on the class. As I have stated before you rolled a Nightblade and immediately ran to the forums crying the class needs buffed. You dueled your buddy against his Nightblade then decided the class needed nerfed. Off to the forums you go. I’m not making this up. These were your own posts.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »People will complain about Incap. A low cost ulti which applies a ton of debuffs is a sound concept for the debuff class. It just can’t burst as hard as it does currently.Teleport Strike: Fixed an issue where casting this ability and its morphs would not remove you from invisibility.
I have a serious problem with this. Being able to cloak > Teleport Strike > Veiled Strike stun targets has been a core nightblades class mechanic since forever. Removing it is an unnecessary reduction of the class’s mechanical depth. It’s diluting class identity and pulling power out of the class to compensate for power creep from item sets and CP. It’s a slap in the face to nightblades honestly.
You already reduced Ambush > Incap stealth gank damage by reworking empower. Weaving to take advantage of the new empower would pull you out of stealth upon arrival anyways.
If it’s an issue with the extended cc duration passive layering with the stuns, then just get rid of the passive.
The combination of ambush + incap without breaking stealth was pretty devastating.
You got lots of buffs for your skills by using this.
Empower, both skills have access to 10% more weapon damage, both skills are guaranteed crits if you were stealthed which means another 10% extra crit damage.
And in the end it was a bug in the end.
On incap i stated numerous times that the stun has to go. For everyone who doesn't think the stun makes incap way more powerful than death stroke/ soul harvest. Create a magnb or a stamnb. Use Soul harvest for two weeks in pvp and then swap to incap afterwards.
Even with the small loss in damage when using incap on a magnb you'll notice how you can win lots of fights in less than 2 seconds after leaving cloak by simply hitting your enemy with incap + will.
The stun just opens a too big offensive window that makes a bursty class like NB way too powerful and in combination with their ability to disengage at will it's extremely unfair to play against.
I see you are still going strong on the nerf Nightblade campaign trail. Incap is a single target, dodgeable, and blockable ultimate. The defile is next to useless against shield users and the “low cost ultimate” often times translates into 140/210 ultimate after shuffles, blocks, and roll dodges are figured in. The defile only really hurts stamina (and not even Stamplar) and stamina has many tools to counter it. The stun and extra damage is on par with DBoS which is undodgeable, AOE, and has a DOT.
Nightblades have poor group utility (unlike every other class), no layered burst (unlike every other class aside from DK), and now you would see them have their single target effectiveness watered down even further.
If you were to have your way, why on earth would I ever play this class over a Stamplar, Stam Sorc, or Stam Warden, which offers so much more. Nightblades only claim to fame is strength in 1v1 and yet Stamblade is middle of the pack in this regard except against potatoes but who isn’t good against that.
if you fail to hit 9/10 incaps it's your fault. you ac it and no one will avoid it wiht block or dodge, that single miss is due to passive Evasion but a good nb will always hit you.
Summoning @Subversus to tell People which spec is currently dominating everything (small hint it's stamnb)
Stamnb is the only class with enough burst skills to don't care about delayed burst skills.
Incap into will is 20k damage without LA weaving who cares if i had another delayed burst skill that guy is dead as the following 5 seconds every SA will hit harder than that incap also he has defile on him.
i'm sure incap is on par with DBoS when every nb is running incap including magnbs why aren't they running dbos when it's just as good or even better as you say? Because it's not with incap you can kill an enemy in 2 gcds and that's what makes a class which can disengage at will too strong. A delayed skill wouldn't even be needed most of the time you end mayn of your fights in few gcds after you leave cloak there wouldn't even be time to wait for the delayed burst to happen.
Incap is better single target then DBoS. As it should be for SINGLE target. DBoS is better against groups and in a group. Period. I know every trick for landing Incap and I assure you with shuffle, random roll dodges, lag, and people block canceling skills lightning fast, you are not anywhere near 9/10 Incaps landing.
You invent scenarios to support your argument and exaggerate to promote your agenda.
Edited by Killset on April 20, 2018 1:40AM7 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭mr_wazzabi wrote: »The most appropriate change you could make to Strife is to have it match the magicka to damage ratio that Force Pulse has. They each have their own merits but having strife match the cost of Force Pulse is not a balanced change unless you have the damage of Strife match that of Force Pulse. By making this change you are effectively killing a class's spammable, and removing its uniqueness.
Doesn't Strife offer a self-heal? Because I know Force Pulse doesn't... and for solo players, that self-heal can be very important to survival. So while Force Pulse may offer more damage, it doesn't offer the ability to help keep you alive... and that may be why they are upping the cost- because Strife gives damage AND healing whereas FP is only good for damage.
Force pulse is unreflectable, benefits from Altmer and Dunmer elemental passives and is 3 hits each cast, tripling the chance of procs activating. It also gives status effects. It also benefits from destro staff passives.
Strife does less damage and heals. It might help with some class passives, but added cost makes FP a better overall skill.
Strife nerf is bad for build diversity. Period.
No not period. It is not a discussion how to equal dps between the skills. The diversity lies in thr simple fact of do you want to benefit from a heal to yourself (or others), have increased healing done passively and gain increased ultimate generation
Or
Increased single target damage, on top of added penetration for overall more dps for a 28m magicka spammable.
Magnb willingly reduced there damage for the benefit of resource sustain, yet that trade was not balancing out. If you want to use the objectively hardest hitting 28m magicka spammable, FP is your choice, as has always been the case. Ask any dps role in a trial to purposefully reduce their damage for added utility and see what reaction you get. Either they will point to a healer and say "its not my job". Zos is telling you that you cant have your cake ans eat it. The choice is in what the 2 skills provide, since they are weighted the same, the choice has nothing to do with magicka cost.
Seriously, what kind of diversity do you want here? Magnb sustain was nearly a non factor. Post summerset all mag dps will run FP because it hits hardest. God forbid they take an equally weighted 28m spammable that adds more utiltiy for a damage trade off, no thats crossing the line.
And im sure someone with enough math can figure out that actual damage loss when factoring in how many more ultimates you can fire off over a longer fight due to the ultimate generation passive using strife.0 -
Maryal✭✭✭✭✭
✭
How is my post biased?@BohnT Although it would be nice to have a serious and honest discussion about NBs, posts like yours are very biased and derail meaningful discussions.
I Play stamnb since beta and it is overperforming right now.
Stamnb has been very strong, since incap was introduced it never was lackluster always strong, People thinking it's weak don't have the skill to Play the class at it's full strength.
right now there is one Encounter that you can't escape from and that is a magnb with mark and even the hardest Encounter for Stamnb isn't impossible to win. Also when i can win more than 60% of my Encounters before my enemy can react after i leave cloak something is wrong. I'm going from almost immortal to being a huge offensive threat in 1 gcd.
I don't think stamnb is totally broken like stamwarden, magdk pre 1.5 etc but incap is overperfoming and it pushes nb burst too much, also stamnb isn't remotly weak defensively they are really good with a proper build but most People just go for the full damage spec and then cry why they die in 2 seconds.
A stamnb can kill Players with 25k health in 3 gcds while running masters bow+shackle+bonepirate+1pc pirate Skeleton. Not one of the sets is a full damage set both provide only ~200 wpn dmg from their 5pc yet you can kill People with no effort and rather quickly.
Try using a Setup like this on any other class and get kills as easy as you can with stamnb while also having very good survivability.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps you have achieved an excellence in this game that few others have? Maybe you see the class through the eyes of someone who has achieved a very high level of skill and knowledge of the game/game mechanics and see the class through your eyes, rather than the eyes of the average NB. I'm not trying to criticize you, but I've noticed that it's easy for people who excel at something to assume that their functioning is the 'norm' because, for them, that IS the 'norm.' When other people don't agree with you, maybe they are being honest and speaking from their point of view .... how they see the class, their experience with the class. If a NB can't do what you do doesn't mean they aren't 'good' ... remember, as you said, you've been playing the class since beta, so you are way ahead of the majority of others when it comes to the class.
That being said, personally, I don't use incap in pvp (my preference is DB), but I do use it in pve and it certainly isn't over performing there. With all the changes coming up with Summerset, I really hope NBs don't get any more nerfs. I want to see how the meta shakes out.Edited by Maryal on April 20, 2018 2:21AM1 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_Wrobel Please consider adding snare removal and short snare immunity to double take.Ranged magicka nightblade really need this in open world..anything breaks you out of cloak these days.
And that’s why discussing NB in this forum is so ridiculous. You want snare removal. And snare immunity. And Major Evasion for 26 (!) seconds. And Major Expedition for 4 seconds. On a skill with 3510 magicka base cost.
While we’re at it, would you like Major Heroism on the skill too? I mean it’s not like it’s overloaded then yet. And I don’t even want to go to the topic of Heavy Armour stamBlades that can slot Rally if they get snare removal on Blur.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.4 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
How is my post biased?@BohnT Although it would be nice to have a serious and honest discussion about NBs, posts like yours are very biased and derail meaningful discussions.
I Play stamnb since beta and it is overperforming right now.
Stamnb has been very strong, since incap was introduced it never was lackluster always strong, People thinking it's weak don't have the skill to Play the class at it's full strength.
right now there is one Encounter that you can't escape from and that is a magnb with mark and even the hardest Encounter for Stamnb isn't impossible to win. Also when i can win more than 60% of my Encounters before my enemy can react after i leave cloak something is wrong. I'm going from almost immortal to being a huge offensive threat in 1 gcd.
I don't think stamnb is totally broken like stamwarden, magdk pre 1.5 etc but incap is overperfoming and it pushes nb burst too much, also stamnb isn't remotly weak defensively they are really good with a proper build but most People just go for the full damage spec and then cry why they die in 2 seconds.
A stamnb can kill Players with 25k health in 3 gcds while running masters bow+shackle+bonepirate+1pc pirate Skeleton. Not one of the sets is a full damage set both provide only ~200 wpn dmg from their 5pc yet you can kill People with no effort and rather quickly.
Try using a Setup like this on any other class and get kills as easy as you can with stamnb while also having very good survivability.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps you have achieved an excellence in this game that few others have? Maybe you see the class through the eyes of someone who has achieved a very high level of skill and knowledge of the game/game mechanics and see the class through your eyes, rather than the eyes of the average NB. I'm not trying to criticize you, but I've noticed that it's easy for people who excel at something to assume that their functioning is the 'norm' because, for them, that IS the 'norm.' When other people don't agree with you, maybe they are being honest and speaking from their point of view .... how they see the class, their experience with the class. If a NB can't do what you do doesn't mean they aren't 'good' ... remember, as you said, you've been playing the class since beta, so you are way ahead of the majority of others when it comes to the class.
That being said, personally, I don't use incap in pvp (my preference is DB), but I do use it in pve and it certainly isn't over performing there. With all the changes coming up with Summerset, I really hope NBs don't get any more nerfs. I want to see how the meta shakes out.
You have to balance a class around its peak performance. Also killing someone with a stamnb is as easy as it can be. The worst NB with no mechanical skill (getting Will procs, keeping buffs up, using the current shade to outplay enemies, etc.) are able to deal lots of frontloaded burst with no need to stay in combat while being harder to kill than they would playing any other class.
If we start balancing about Cletus the Zergling then we can completely stop doing any balance changes because those players are not capable of doing good without massive training wheels and Stamnb is currently training wheels.
Also a removal of the CC on Incap doesn't make Stamnb magically unplayable it just makes it harder to get kills from cloak and forces players to stay longer in a fight if they want the kill. You don't have a big risk right now: you go in with your full burst and maybe get the kill in the first gcds or you see that the enemy can recover so you back up with cloak and keep repeating the engage/ disengage until you are successful or you die. However you have a huge advantage in this situation against most specs as all other classes have backloaded burst which takes time to setup meaning you will never face the full damage potential of your enemy while you unleash yours everytime you attack.
Incap needs it's stun removed.2 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭But if the stun and defile were removed from incap then would it still be incapacitating?0 -
aeowulf✭✭✭✭✭Areas NB need help is healing & tanking
StamNB DPS already only equips 3-4 class skills. In short, this means a significant number of non class skills are superior.
MagNB DPS fairs a little better, but strife change will probably mean force pulse is slotted (better passives)
You cannot balance these skills vs each other directly, without taking passives into consideration:
relevant strife passives:
Increases your healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted.
Casting a Siphoning ability generates 2 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.
relevant force pulse passives:
Gain bonus effects based on your staff type: Fully-charged Flame Heavy Attacks deal 12% additional damage. Shock Heavy Attacks damage nearby enemies for 100% of the damage done.
Your Destruction Staff abilities ignore 10% of the enemy's Spell Resistance.
Increases your chance to apply the Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects by 100% while you have a Destruction Staff equipped.
Gain bonus effects based on your staff type while you have a Destruction Staff ability slotted: Flame Staff increases your damage done with single target abilities by 8%. Lightning Staff increases your damage done with area of effect abilities by 8%.
When you kill an enemy with a Destruction Staff ability, you restore 3600 Magicka.
Add all that extra stuff into strife, remove the heal and match the damage, THEN you can justify making them cost the same.
Strife is in the healing line also, should be balanced against other skills in class heal lines, and certainly not balanced against a non class DPS skill.Edited by aeowulf on April 20, 2018 8:58AM4 -
mr_wazzabi✭✭✭✭✭
✭
How is my post biased?@BohnT Although it would be nice to have a serious and honest discussion about NBs, posts like yours are very biased and derail meaningful discussions.
I Play stamnb since beta and it is overperforming right now.
Stamnb has been very strong, since incap was introduced it never was lackluster always strong, People thinking it's weak don't have the skill to Play the class at it's full strength.
right now there is one Encounter that you can't escape from and that is a magnb with mark and even the hardest Encounter for Stamnb isn't impossible to win. Also when i can win more than 60% of my Encounters before my enemy can react after i leave cloak something is wrong. I'm going from almost immortal to being a huge offensive threat in 1 gcd.
I don't think stamnb is totally broken like stamwarden, magdk pre 1.5 etc but incap is overperfoming and it pushes nb burst too much, also stamnb isn't remotly weak defensively they are really good with a proper build but most People just go for the full damage spec and then cry why they die in 2 seconds.
A stamnb can kill Players with 25k health in 3 gcds while running masters bow+shackle+bonepirate+1pc pirate Skeleton. Not one of the sets is a full damage set both provide only ~200 wpn dmg from their 5pc yet you can kill People with no effort and rather quickly.
Try using a Setup like this on any other class and get kills as easy as you can with stamnb while also having very good survivability.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps you have achieved an excellence in this game that few others have? Maybe you see the class through the eyes of someone who has achieved a very high level of skill and knowledge of the game/game mechanics and see the class through your eyes, rather than the eyes of the average NB. I'm not trying to criticize you, but I've noticed that it's easy for people who excel at something to assume that their functioning is the 'norm' because, for them, that IS the 'norm.' When other people don't agree with you, maybe they are being honest and speaking from their point of view .... how they see the class, their experience with the class. If a NB can't do what you do doesn't mean they aren't 'good' ... remember, as you said, you've been playing the class since beta, so you are way ahead of the majority of others when it comes to the class.
That being said, personally, I don't use incap in pvp (my preference is DB), but I do use it in pve and it certainly isn't over performing there. With all the changes coming up with Summerset, I really hope NBs don't get any more nerfs. I want to see how the meta shakes out.
You have to balance a class around its peak performance. Also killing someone with a stamnb is as easy as it can be. The worst NB with no mechanical skill (getting Will procs, keeping buffs up, using the current shade to outplay enemies, etc.) are able to deal lots of frontloaded burst with no need to stay in combat while being harder to kill than they would playing any other class.
If we start balancing about Cletus the Zergling then we can completely stop doing any balance changes because those players are not capable of doing good without massive training wheels and Stamnb is currently training wheels.
Also a removal of the CC on Incap doesn't make Stamnb magically unplayable it just makes it harder to get kills from cloak and forces players to stay longer in a fight if they want the kill. You don't have a big risk right now: you go in with your full burst and maybe get the kill in the first gcds or you see that the enemy can recover so you back up with cloak and keep repeating the engage/ disengage until you are successful or you die. However you have a huge advantage in this situation against most specs as all other classes have backloaded burst which takes time to setup meaning you will never face the full damage potential of your enemy while you unleash yours everytime you attack.
Incap needs it's stun removed.
I'm ok with the stun being lost from incap, as long as they don't nerf the damage anymore or increase the cost. Maybe just make it the same as soul harvest, but a stam version. Or add a snare.
This will keep its viability in pveEdited by mr_wazzabi on April 20, 2018 9:08AMBosmer Stamina NB
Altmer Magicka TEMP
Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
Altmer Magicka NB
Breton Magicka Sorc
Redguard Stam Sorc
Max CP2 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
LOL... Hitting Incap 9/10 times? This tells me everything I need to know about you. You are a tourist on the class. As I have stated before you rolled a Nightblade and immediately ran to the forums crying the class needs buffed. You dueled your buddy against his Nightblade then decided the class needed nerfed. Off to the forums you go. I’m not making this up. These were your own posts.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »People will complain about Incap. A low cost ulti which applies a ton of debuffs is a sound concept for the debuff class. It just can’t burst as hard as it does currently.Teleport Strike: Fixed an issue where casting this ability and its morphs would not remove you from invisibility.
I have a serious problem with this. Being able to cloak > Teleport Strike > Veiled Strike stun targets has been a core nightblades class mechanic since forever. Removing it is an unnecessary reduction of the class’s mechanical depth. It’s diluting class identity and pulling power out of the class to compensate for power creep from item sets and CP. It’s a slap in the face to nightblades honestly.
You already reduced Ambush > Incap stealth gank damage by reworking empower. Weaving to take advantage of the new empower would pull you out of stealth upon arrival anyways.
If it’s an issue with the extended cc duration passive layering with the stuns, then just get rid of the passive.
The combination of ambush + incap without breaking stealth was pretty devastating.
You got lots of buffs for your skills by using this.
Empower, both skills have access to 10% more weapon damage, both skills are guaranteed crits if you were stealthed which means another 10% extra crit damage.
And in the end it was a bug in the end.
On incap i stated numerous times that the stun has to go. For everyone who doesn't think the stun makes incap way more powerful than death stroke/ soul harvest. Create a magnb or a stamnb. Use Soul harvest for two weeks in pvp and then swap to incap afterwards.
Even with the small loss in damage when using incap on a magnb you'll notice how you can win lots of fights in less than 2 seconds after leaving cloak by simply hitting your enemy with incap + will.
The stun just opens a too big offensive window that makes a bursty class like NB way too powerful and in combination with their ability to disengage at will it's extremely unfair to play against.
I see you are still going strong on the nerf Nightblade campaign trail. Incap is a single target, dodgeable, and blockable ultimate. The defile is next to useless against shield users and the “low cost ultimate” often times translates into 140/210 ultimate after shuffles, blocks, and roll dodges are figured in. The defile only really hurts stamina (and not even Stamplar) and stamina has many tools to counter it. The stun and extra damage is on par with DBoS which is undodgeable, AOE, and has a DOT.
Nightblades have poor group utility (unlike every other class), no layered burst (unlike every other class aside from DK), and now you would see them have their single target effectiveness watered down even further.
If you were to have your way, why on earth would I ever play this class over a Stamplar, Stam Sorc, or Stam Warden, which offers so much more. Nightblades only claim to fame is strength in 1v1 and yet Stamblade is middle of the pack in this regard except against potatoes but who isn’t good against that.
if you fail to hit 9/10 incaps it's your fault. you ac it and no one will avoid it wiht block or dodge, that single miss is due to passive Evasion but a good nb will always hit you.
Summoning @Subversus to tell People which spec is currently dominating everything (small hint it's stamnb)
Stamnb is the only class with enough burst skills to don't care about delayed burst skills.
Incap into will is 20k damage without LA weaving who cares if i had another delayed burst skill that guy is dead as the following 5 seconds every SA will hit harder than that incap also he has defile on him.
i'm sure incap is on par with DBoS when every nb is running incap including magnbs why aren't they running dbos when it's just as good or even better as you say? Because it's not with incap you can kill an enemy in 2 gcds and that's what makes a class which can disengage at will too strong. A delayed skill wouldn't even be needed most of the time you end mayn of your fights in few gcds after you leave cloak there wouldn't even be time to wait for the delayed burst to happen.
Incap is better single target then DBoS. As it should be for SINGLE target. DBoS is better against groups and in a group. Period. I know every trick for landing Incap and I assure you with shuffle, random roll dodges, lag, and people block canceling skills lightning fast, you are not anywhere near 9/10 Incaps landing.
You invent scenarios to support your argument and exaggerate to promote your agenda.
I'm not a tourist, i just like to see everything rather than others who just stick to NB and nothing else.
I rolled my nb in the pre beta and not later when NB got buffs.
I decided the class needs nerf in my eyes after playing every other spec in the class and then returning to stamnb. When i played stamnb only like you do i thought it was weak but it's not.
What does it help that Dbos is better against groups when a NB can fight groups much better with Incap one by one. If you go full Rambo i know why you think stamnb is weak you try to force something that will not work because you are in a disadvantage.
You don't know every Trick if you don't hit atleast 8/10 incaps. You react to your enemy because he can't react to your incap if you AC it. The only reason your incap should miss is if you get unlucky with shuffle every other miss is a L2p issue on your side.
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aeowulf✭✭✭✭✭
I decided the class needs nerf in my eyes after playing every other spec in the class and then returning to stamnb. When i played stamnb only like you do i thought it was weak but it's not.
Exactly which parts of NB tank & NB healer would you like to see nerfed? Patch is already bringing in a duration and 50% mitigation nerf to Bolstering Darkness and removing the self heal from MO
Edited by aeowulf on April 20, 2018 9:24AM0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Exactly which parts of NB tank & NB healer would you like to see nerfed? Patch is already bringing in a duration and 50% mitigation nerf to Bolstering Darkness and removing the self heal from MO[/quote]
I never said i want Nb tanks / healers nerfed. I want stamnbs frontloaded burst nerfed to balance its overall performance.
I don't want Stamnb to die or anything like the crybabies on the forums do all the time, i want the class to be balanced. And this can mean that the 2 niche specs healer and tank don't receive the buffs they need because the majority of NBs is offensive and maybe 5% play a NB tank/ healerEdited by BohnT on April 20, 2018 9:39AM0 -
aeowulf✭✭✭✭✭@BohnT - my apologies, I thought when you said "I decided the class needs nerf in my eyes after playing every other spec in the class" you meant you'd played every other spec in the class before deciding the class needed a nerf.
You can of course spec the class to perform towards the roles of tank or healer.
Please be very careful when asking for nerfs in the 1 role (there are only three 'roles' recognised by ZoS according to group finder) when the other two roles are niche/non-competitive/not fun (no clue why healer is unpopular tbh...) Should your time not be better spent seeking balance in roles where there are huge disparities, rather than comparatively minor ones?
Have you not thought that half the reason the majority of NB play offensively is because they have no choice whilst the other 'niche specs' are under-performing. Want to see less NB DPS? Fix the other roles. I for one would return to tanking, I dislike the DPS role.
I also want to see balance, particularly for any under represented class-role in vet dungeon finder. Without the stats ZoS has access to, I can only use my own judgement. Like never ever seeing DK healers, for example. Please in future be very specific when asking for blanket class nerfs, as these undoubtably channel down to the under performing roles. (and every class has those)
For example, does literally anyone think bolstering darkness should have it's mitigation reduced by 50% for NB tanks? That is probably statistically the biggest change to any skill this patch (strife is pretty close) and literally no one seems to care. NB tanks are all ready in a pretty bad place.Edited by aeowulf on April 20, 2018 11:05AM1 -
VaxtinTheWolf✭✭✭✭✭After another day of lurking, Perhaps Consuming Darkness and associated morphs should be changed to a Player based AOE like the Destruction ultimate "Eye of the Storm". The Snare is removed from the base skill and mitigation is applied to allies near the Nightblade using it and nearby Allies in the same radius can activate the Synergy. As for the duration, maybe cut by a third or half and maybe alter the ultimate cost.
Veil of Blades can still damage enemies as it does now and snare, but reduced to 40% since other snares seemed to be using that number, while Bolstering Darkness adds something small in addition to the base effect for additional group utility. Maybe Minor Vitality since it is "Bolstering allies survival", or a different minor tier buff. If not that, then return the additional 30% mitigation to the Nightblade using it.
Another option is to allow Bolstering Darkness continue to inherit the current change that lets the Major Protection buff stick to allies that receive it along with the Player Based AOE change described above.Edited by VaxtinTheWolf on April 20, 2018 12:38PM|| AD - Rah'Jiin Lv50 Khajiit Nightblade (Damage) || EP - Generic Argonian Lv50 Argonian Nightblade (Tank) || DC - Zinkotsu Lv50 Breton Nightblade (Healer) ||
|| DC - Ja'Kiro Feral-Heart Lv50 Khajiit Dragonknight (Damage) || EP - VaxtinTheWolf Lv50 Redguard Templar (Tank) || AD - Velik Iranis Lv50 Dark Elf Sorcerer (Tank ) ||
|| EP - Einvarg The Frozen Lv50 Nord Warden (Tank/Healer) || EP - Keem-Ja Lv4 Argonian Necromancer (Healer/Tank) ||PC - North American Server (Champion 1300+)0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭After testing on PTS:
Dark Shade - It really does "occasionally" spin for AoE damage, but this is very random. It usually does it 4-5 times in the 20.7 second duration.
First, that duration is just odd. This could use the same treatment for the passive duration increase as the Templars got to make it come to an even number like 21 seconds.
Second and more importantly, the minor maim debuff the pet applies does seem to apply on the spin attack, but it is too random so the debuff falls off.
This needs to trigger the spin within every 4 seconds, when in range of the target, so that the debuff is predictable and constant and is more likely to happen 5 times per cast of the skill rather than just 4 or less. This can't just be timed though. It needs to not waste it when no enemies are close which is easy enough if it does a target range check like any single target ability.
It's just too random right now.
I would not mind if the spin was his only attack, with a buff to make up for the lack of the single target attack, but I just want the spin to be more consistent timing.
Edit:
As for Strike/Swallow Soul cost, it has always overwritten itself when recast so I normally just refresh the HoT during my rotation for survival with the occasional spamming when an enemy is low health, since I don't use an execute. This cost change is not as bad that way, but this is still an odd choice for a spammable that follows the same mold as Puncturing Sweep, except healing for less. I believe the healing should get a buff or, better yet, the HoT should always smart target a player not yet affected by it, preferring the caster first with the other morph opposite Swallow Soul still giving 2 target HoTs per cast, so that the entire ability behaves like the "heal other" effect of the alternate morph that does smart target like Mutagen. Unique and useful.
As for Refreshing Path, this is the main heal for soloing/tanking as a Nightblade on live. It's more powerful than the HoT of Swallow Soul/Strife(unless you spam this for it every second but that's inefficient) and thus is our main survival tool.
The healing of Refreshing Path did not need a nerf and should be brought back to the value it was before, or possibly buffed because of the horrible width and range with highly mobile fights.
Honestly, Refreshing Path would seriously benefit from the same treatment as Bolstering Darkness buffs that continue after an affected player leaves the area, which is partially how Refreshing Path already works but only for 2 seconds after leaving the field. It's just far too common to need to move and far too easy to end up outside this very small field.
Edit 2:
The Resfreshing Path idea would make it behave similar to Templars' Rune Focus that provides them its buff so long as they run over it lasting 8 seconds until they run over it again to refresh it. This works perfectly for Templars so why can't this small Nightblade Refreshing Path get the same treatment? It would be easy copy/paste code.Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on April 20, 2018 12:46PM0 -
zammo✭✭✭But if the stun and defile were removed from incap then would it still be incapacitating?
Yes, in the same way that Mass Hysteria retained it's name; it makes no sense lol
On the subject of Incap being OP, why does it have a knockdown element? The description says stun, but it's a knockdown? I don't claim to know the game inside out, but a stun and knockdown are two different things right? Why not just have the knockdown actually be a stun as per skill description? I dare say that would be easier to CC break, and in addition to the empower change make it more balanced? Helps in PvP, doesn't hurt PvE.
Force Pulse > Funnel Health / Swallow Soul. I get the whole pros and cons thing, and strife offering utility vs the raw DPS of Force Pulse, but all that said, force pulse is the better skill. Force Pulse simply offers more. Funnel Health / Swallow Soul should be cheaper than Force Pulse. Out of interest, what's the cost of the magicka morph of Imbue Weapon?
And while i'm thinking about it, make Mass Hysteria fear three targets again.0 -
Killset✭✭✭✭
LOL... Hitting Incap 9/10 times? This tells me everything I need to know about you. You are a tourist on the class. As I have stated before you rolled a Nightblade and immediately ran to the forums crying the class needs buffed. You dueled your buddy against his Nightblade then decided the class needed nerfed. Off to the forums you go. I’m not making this up. These were your own posts.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »People will complain about Incap. A low cost ulti which applies a ton of debuffs is a sound concept for the debuff class. It just can’t burst as hard as it does currently.Teleport Strike: Fixed an issue where casting this ability and its morphs would not remove you from invisibility.
I have a serious problem with this. Being able to cloak > Teleport Strike > Veiled Strike stun targets has been a core nightblades class mechanic since forever. Removing it is an unnecessary reduction of the class’s mechanical depth. It’s diluting class identity and pulling power out of the class to compensate for power creep from item sets and CP. It’s a slap in the face to nightblades honestly.
You already reduced Ambush > Incap stealth gank damage by reworking empower. Weaving to take advantage of the new empower would pull you out of stealth upon arrival anyways.
If it’s an issue with the extended cc duration passive layering with the stuns, then just get rid of the passive.
The combination of ambush + incap without breaking stealth was pretty devastating.
You got lots of buffs for your skills by using this.
Empower, both skills have access to 10% more weapon damage, both skills are guaranteed crits if you were stealthed which means another 10% extra crit damage.
And in the end it was a bug in the end.
On incap i stated numerous times that the stun has to go. For everyone who doesn't think the stun makes incap way more powerful than death stroke/ soul harvest. Create a magnb or a stamnb. Use Soul harvest for two weeks in pvp and then swap to incap afterwards.
Even with the small loss in damage when using incap on a magnb you'll notice how you can win lots of fights in less than 2 seconds after leaving cloak by simply hitting your enemy with incap + will.
The stun just opens a too big offensive window that makes a bursty class like NB way too powerful and in combination with their ability to disengage at will it's extremely unfair to play against.
I see you are still going strong on the nerf Nightblade campaign trail. Incap is a single target, dodgeable, and blockable ultimate. The defile is next to useless against shield users and the “low cost ultimate” often times translates into 140/210 ultimate after shuffles, blocks, and roll dodges are figured in. The defile only really hurts stamina (and not even Stamplar) and stamina has many tools to counter it. The stun and extra damage is on par with DBoS which is undodgeable, AOE, and has a DOT.
Nightblades have poor group utility (unlike every other class), no layered burst (unlike every other class aside from DK), and now you would see them have their single target effectiveness watered down even further.
If you were to have your way, why on earth would I ever play this class over a Stamplar, Stam Sorc, or Stam Warden, which offers so much more. Nightblades only claim to fame is strength in 1v1 and yet Stamblade is middle of the pack in this regard except against potatoes but who isn’t good against that.
if you fail to hit 9/10 incaps it's your fault. you ac it and no one will avoid it wiht block or dodge, that single miss is due to passive Evasion but a good nb will always hit you.
Summoning @Subversus to tell People which spec is currently dominating everything (small hint it's stamnb)
Stamnb is the only class with enough burst skills to don't care about delayed burst skills.
Incap into will is 20k damage without LA weaving who cares if i had another delayed burst skill that guy is dead as the following 5 seconds every SA will hit harder than that incap also he has defile on him.
i'm sure incap is on par with DBoS when every nb is running incap including magnbs why aren't they running dbos when it's just as good or even better as you say? Because it's not with incap you can kill an enemy in 2 gcds and that's what makes a class which can disengage at will too strong. A delayed skill wouldn't even be needed most of the time you end mayn of your fights in few gcds after you leave cloak there wouldn't even be time to wait for the delayed burst to happen.
Incap is better single target then DBoS. As it should be for SINGLE target. DBoS is better against groups and in a group. Period. I know every trick for landing Incap and I assure you with shuffle, random roll dodges, lag, and people block canceling skills lightning fast, you are not anywhere near 9/10 Incaps landing.
You invent scenarios to support your argument and exaggerate to promote your agenda.
I'm not a tourist, i just like to see everything rather than others who just stick to NB and nothing else.
I rolled my nb in the pre beta and not later when NB got buffs.
I decided the class needs nerf in my eyes after playing every other spec in the class and then returning to stamnb. When i played stamnb only like you do i thought it was weak but it's not.
What does it help that Dbos is better against groups when a NB can fight groups much better with Incap one by one. If you go full Rambo i know why you think stamnb is weak you try to force something that will not work because you are in a disadvantage.
You don't know every Trick if you don't hit atleast 8/10 incaps. You react to your enemy because he can't react to your incap if you AC it. The only reason your incap should miss is if you get unlucky with shuffle every other miss is a L2p issue on your side.
Ahhh. We are down to 8/10 now. Progress. Or maybe this is another completely fabricated number. Much like the time you claimed you killed 3 people in 10 seconds, with your Incap showing on every one of their recaps. I’ll clue you in on some things . If someone block cancels a skill at the same time I am Incapping. Blocked. If someone roll dodges the same time I AC cancel Incap. Dodged. Hell, I inadvertently block Incap all the time on my MagDK and Magplar, just from block canceling skills. This is the reality of it. And it happens with frustrating regularity. The only way to somewhat reliably land Incap is to Fear first, which renders the CC from Incap null and void.
I honestly don’t know what your getting at here. You say NB has too much burst? You obviously haven’t played against a good Stam Warden. If you are complaining about getting ganked then channel your uninformed and completely biased energy towards Focus Aim.
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BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
LOL... Hitting Incap 9/10 times? This tells me everything I need to know about you. You are a tourist on the class. As I have stated before you rolled a Nightblade and immediately ran to the forums crying the class needs buffed. You dueled your buddy against his Nightblade then decided the class needed nerfed. Off to the forums you go. I’m not making this up. These were your own posts.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »People will complain about Incap. A low cost ulti which applies a ton of debuffs is a sound concept for the debuff class. It just can’t burst as hard as it does currently.Teleport Strike: Fixed an issue where casting this ability and its morphs would not remove you from invisibility.
I have a serious problem with this. Being able to cloak > Teleport Strike > Veiled Strike stun targets has been a core nightblades class mechanic since forever. Removing it is an unnecessary reduction of the class’s mechanical depth. It’s diluting class identity and pulling power out of the class to compensate for power creep from item sets and CP. It’s a slap in the face to nightblades honestly.
You already reduced Ambush > Incap stealth gank damage by reworking empower. Weaving to take advantage of the new empower would pull you out of stealth upon arrival anyways.
If it’s an issue with the extended cc duration passive layering with the stuns, then just get rid of the passive.
The combination of ambush + incap without breaking stealth was pretty devastating.
You got lots of buffs for your skills by using this.
Empower, both skills have access to 10% more weapon damage, both skills are guaranteed crits if you were stealthed which means another 10% extra crit damage.
And in the end it was a bug in the end.
On incap i stated numerous times that the stun has to go. For everyone who doesn't think the stun makes incap way more powerful than death stroke/ soul harvest. Create a magnb or a stamnb. Use Soul harvest for two weeks in pvp and then swap to incap afterwards.
Even with the small loss in damage when using incap on a magnb you'll notice how you can win lots of fights in less than 2 seconds after leaving cloak by simply hitting your enemy with incap + will.
The stun just opens a too big offensive window that makes a bursty class like NB way too powerful and in combination with their ability to disengage at will it's extremely unfair to play against.
I see you are still going strong on the nerf Nightblade campaign trail. Incap is a single target, dodgeable, and blockable ultimate. The defile is next to useless against shield users and the “low cost ultimate” often times translates into 140/210 ultimate after shuffles, blocks, and roll dodges are figured in. The defile only really hurts stamina (and not even Stamplar) and stamina has many tools to counter it. The stun and extra damage is on par with DBoS which is undodgeable, AOE, and has a DOT.
Nightblades have poor group utility (unlike every other class), no layered burst (unlike every other class aside from DK), and now you would see them have their single target effectiveness watered down even further.
If you were to have your way, why on earth would I ever play this class over a Stamplar, Stam Sorc, or Stam Warden, which offers so much more. Nightblades only claim to fame is strength in 1v1 and yet Stamblade is middle of the pack in this regard except against potatoes but who isn’t good against that.
if you fail to hit 9/10 incaps it's your fault. you ac it and no one will avoid it wiht block or dodge, that single miss is due to passive Evasion but a good nb will always hit you.
Summoning @Subversus to tell People which spec is currently dominating everything (small hint it's stamnb)
Stamnb is the only class with enough burst skills to don't care about delayed burst skills.
Incap into will is 20k damage without LA weaving who cares if i had another delayed burst skill that guy is dead as the following 5 seconds every SA will hit harder than that incap also he has defile on him.
i'm sure incap is on par with DBoS when every nb is running incap including magnbs why aren't they running dbos when it's just as good or even better as you say? Because it's not with incap you can kill an enemy in 2 gcds and that's what makes a class which can disengage at will too strong. A delayed skill wouldn't even be needed most of the time you end mayn of your fights in few gcds after you leave cloak there wouldn't even be time to wait for the delayed burst to happen.
Incap is better single target then DBoS. As it should be for SINGLE target. DBoS is better against groups and in a group. Period. I know every trick for landing Incap and I assure you with shuffle, random roll dodges, lag, and people block canceling skills lightning fast, you are not anywhere near 9/10 Incaps landing.
You invent scenarios to support your argument and exaggerate to promote your agenda.
I'm not a tourist, i just like to see everything rather than others who just stick to NB and nothing else.
I rolled my nb in the pre beta and not later when NB got buffs.
I decided the class needs nerf in my eyes after playing every other spec in the class and then returning to stamnb. When i played stamnb only like you do i thought it was weak but it's not.
What does it help that Dbos is better against groups when a NB can fight groups much better with Incap one by one. If you go full Rambo i know why you think stamnb is weak you try to force something that will not work because you are in a disadvantage.
You don't know every Trick if you don't hit atleast 8/10 incaps. You react to your enemy because he can't react to your incap if you AC it. The only reason your incap should miss is if you get unlucky with shuffle every other miss is a L2p issue on your side.
Ahhh. We are down to 8/10 now. Progress. Or maybe this is another completely fabricated number. Much like the time you claimed you killed 3 people in 10 seconds, with your Incap showing on every one of their recaps. I’ll clue you in on some things . If someone block cancels a skill at the same time I am Incapping. Blocked. If someone roll dodges the same time I AC cancel Incap. Dodged. Hell, I inadvertently block Incap all the time on my MagDK and Magplar, just from block canceling skills. This is the reality of it. And it happens with frustrating regularity. The only way to somewhat reliably land Incap is to Fear first, which renders the CC from Incap null and void.
I honestly don’t know what your getting at here. You say NB has too much burst? You obviously haven’t played against a good Stam Warden. If you are complaining about getting ganked then channel your uninformed and completely biased energy towards Focus Aim.
Stamwarden has backloaded burst =/= frontloaded burst
also i do say stamwarden is a Problem even more than stamnb but this doesn't mean that Stamnb get's a free pass.
the 8/10 was a number for you as you clearly aren't good with adapting to the Things an enemy does. also have a look at that great post about incap and dodge it may help you understand why 9/10 is really easy also Players with block cancel still have the gcd after their cancel where they aren't blocking you just wait for them to finish their last block cancel to use incap and it won't be blocked.
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