MagDK is not strong for PvP outside of 1v1 duels and being a rootspammer (sorcs can do the same, being CC'd negated then rooted when I broke free was a very annoying Xv1). The last patches have been massive nerfs, with limited buffs, the only reason MDK seems better, is because stamDK was deleted and other classes like magsorc were nerfed:

Since morrowind the massive meta changing nerfs have been: Block cost increase, block ticks every 0.25s. Wrath removal, whip nerf, constitution nerf, battle roar nerf, igneous nerf. Every useful aspect of DK strength, lockdown and tankiness nerfed to ***, anything that made a DK unique, or better than other classes, RIP.

All the meta changing buffs have been: Block reduced by 20% later. Burning/choking talons damage buff, cauterize buff, shifting standards buff, helping hands/battle roar buff.
Block buff not even near to what it was, shifting is nearly NU solo in open areas, burning/talons are useful extra damage, but not having to spec so high into sustain and having better base damage would be better. Cauterize is cool actually. And again, helping hands/BR regen doesn't hold a candle to old block costs and constitution and come at the cost of mag sustain loss.

(Not including things that don't really have an effect either way, i.e. wings duration since it goes down as fast, petrify buff/nerf mix since I'd take either and both are used and perform in the same way)

And if someone says "but destro resto builds are OK" Imaging having to hinge your entire build around a resto defense open to every class and that doesn't synergise with your class at all because the DK class/main tanky defenses are so poor. Every other class does destro resto better.

If someone offered me the option to go to pre morrow, (much cheaper block and better tankiness, better damage lockdown and finisher and much better sustain) or next patch slightly better sustain DK and kind of healy DK, I'd take the first in a heart beat. Even if they keep the CP changes and subsequent cost changes.

BohnT wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

MagDK is not strong for PvP outside of 1v1 duels and being a rootspammer (sorcs can do the same, being CC'd negated then rooted when I broke free was a very annoying Xv1). The last patches have been massive nerfs, with limited buffs, the only reason MDK seems better, is because stamDK was deleted and other classes like magsorc were nerfed:

Since morrowind the massive meta changing nerfs have been: Block cost increase, block ticks every 0.25s. Wrath removal, whip nerf, constitution nerf, battle roar nerf, igneous nerf. Every useful aspect of DK strength, lockdown and tankiness nerfed to ***, anything that made a DK unique, or better than other classes, RIP.

All the meta changing buffs have been: Block reduced by 20% later. Burning/choking talons damage buff, cauterize buff, shifting standards buff, helping hands/battle roar buff.
Block buff not even near to what it was, shifting is nearly NU solo in open areas, burning/talons are useful extra damage, but not having to spec so high into sustain and having better base damage would be better. Cauterize is cool actually. And again, helping hands/BR regen doesn't hold a candle to old block costs and constitution and come at the cost of mag sustain loss.

(Not including things that don't really have an effect either way, i.e. wings duration since it goes down as fast, petrify buff/nerf mix since I'd take either and both are used and perform in the same way)

And if someone says "but destro resto builds are OK" Imaging having to hinge your entire build around a resto defense open to every class and that doesn't synergise with your class at all because the DK class/main tanky defenses are so poor. Every other class does destro resto better.

If someone offered me the option to go to pre morrow, (much cheaper block and better tankiness, better damage lockdown and finisher and much better sustain) or next patch slightly better sustain DK and kind of healy DK, I'd take the first in a heart beat. Even if they keep the CP changes and subsequent cost changes.

Magdk is strong in pvp. It's one of the best specs to fight in towers due to high AoE damage, healing that scales with number of enemies.
Old block cost was ridiculous as well as the undodgeable embers and whips.
You had multiple encounters you won by default. Other block builds lost because magdk has great pressure with dots a cc that goes through block and better stam sustain than other classes. Magdk made every medium armor dodge build unplayable as you didn't stand any chance vs a decent magdk.

Watch Malcoms video about sorc 1vX.
Magdk is a beast in battle you just have bad kiting so you have to chose where to fight. But most Magdks just run around OW with no LoS options around or don't fight inside of towers. These DKs nerf the class much more than anything before because they fail to adapt to magdk.

Magdk doesn't work bad with resto. The shield is actually good as you have good healing on top of the shield. There is one passive that caters towards blocking and that thing is really bad. Magdk works great with destro restro, you get 40% heavy boost which is huge combined with flame staves that get further boosted by engulfing flames.
If the shoe fits you may aswell use it. Why crying about a build that works. If you want to win a duel you play pet sorc or bleedblade, if you want to be good with magdk you better use a good build and then magdk is really strong in pvp.

The only place where magdk is lackluster is in bomb groups. They are great in 1v1, 1vX, small scale, keep defences and Xv1.

So you want an unnerfed magdk vs the current game?
Everyone would choose that because it's much better to have no block cost, old sustain mechanics etc.
But that's the same for all classes that's not related to class changes but to complete game changes

(Prenote: Undodgable embers was broken because of the instant, decent damage dot/heal it gave, powerlash wasn't, since it took 3gcd's to setup, and in that time the setup could be cloaked, dodged, streaked, or dealt with via immunity. You would only die to it if you made a mistake. Now it gets dodged easily 75% of the time if even set up.)

The thing is, the strongest defense, cloak, didn't get a nerf, nor did shields, (but sustain sorted that problem) and whilst NB siphoning did, it was still top tier for sustain. Wheras DK got the harshest nerfs, (a pretty eh class pre morrow where immortal tankplars, and proc sets ran rife, though was FOTM with desert rose for about 1 month before they nerfed it) Everything pertaining to stand your ground was nerfed, not just permablock tanks, but wrath, any sustain etc, because of bad balancing.

Destro resto you say combines with good healing, but then templar/warden have better in that department, whilst having a better class defense. (I do think on a DK the healing is very strong offensively, but not warden/temp level) Its not that it doesn't work, its just that why run it when any other mag class does it better? Even with destro resto I wouldn't rate molten higher that entropy personally, but that is just a side note, I don't heavy attack enough for it to be near worth.

DK isn't a bad class for pure sealclubbing 1vXs. (Honestly I find it better than my stamsorc) Bad players cannot manage their stam, and can't dent my health. But for actual true openworld, they suck. Any class bar Templar and stamDK does better, because mobility and disengagement, whilst mitigating, is key. Hence stamblade, magsorc (even in their nerfed state) and stamden are the more common classes, and in places where mobility and disengagement and good dynamic/scaling defense isn't needed, like 1v1/Xv1/BGs. DK is great.

TL;DR: DK is OK in the grand scheme of things, but they have continuously gotten worse with marginal, and just because some other classes got nerfed, and DK looks better in comparison, it doesn't magically fix DKs openworld issues that have persisted since 1.6. I can, and do play well with mine, but as someone who has played for too damn long, I know they are nothing to a top tier class like NB/warden.

BohnT wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

MagDK is not strong for PvP outside of 1v1 duels and being a rootspammer (sorcs can do the same, being CC'd negated then rooted when I broke free was a very annoying Xv1). The last patches have been massive nerfs, with limited buffs, the only reason MDK seems better, is because stamDK was deleted and other classes like magsorc were nerfed:

Since morrowind the massive meta changing nerfs have been: Block cost increase, block ticks every 0.25s. Wrath removal, whip nerf, constitution nerf, battle roar nerf, igneous nerf. Every useful aspect of DK strength, lockdown and tankiness nerfed to ***, anything that made a DK unique, or better than other classes, RIP.

All the meta changing buffs have been: Block reduced by 20% later. Burning/choking talons damage buff, cauterize buff, shifting standards buff, helping hands/battle roar buff.
Block buff not even near to what it was, shifting is nearly NU solo in open areas, burning/talons are useful extra damage, but not having to spec so high into sustain and having better base damage would be better. Cauterize is cool actually. And again, helping hands/BR regen doesn't hold a candle to old block costs and constitution and come at the cost of mag sustain loss.

(Not including things that don't really have an effect either way, i.e. wings duration since it goes down as fast, petrify buff/nerf mix since I'd take either and both are used and perform in the same way)

And if someone says "but destro resto builds are OK" Imaging having to hinge your entire build around a resto defense open to every class and that doesn't synergise with your class at all because the DK class/main tanky defenses are so poor. Every other class does destro resto better.

If someone offered me the option to go to pre morrow, (much cheaper block and better tankiness, better damage lockdown and finisher and much better sustain) or next patch slightly better sustain DK and kind of healy DK, I'd take the first in a heart beat. Even if they keep the CP changes and subsequent cost changes.

Magdk is strong in pvp. It's one of the best specs to fight in towers due to high AoE damage, healing that scales with number of enemies.
Old block cost was ridiculous as well as the undodgeable embers and whips.
You had multiple encounters you won by default. Other block builds lost because magdk has great pressure with dots a cc that goes through block and better stam sustain than other classes. Magdk made every medium armor dodge build unplayable as you didn't stand any chance vs a decent magdk.

Watch Malcoms video about sorc 1vX.
Magdk is a beast in battle you just have bad kiting so you have to chose where to fight. But most Magdks just run around OW with no LoS options around or don't fight inside of towers. These DKs nerf the class much more than anything before because they fail to adapt to magdk.

Magdk doesn't work bad with resto. The shield is actually good as you have good healing on top of the shield. There is one passive that caters towards blocking and that thing is really bad. Magdk works great with destro restro, you get 40% heavy boost which is huge combined with flame staves that get further boosted by engulfing flames.
If the shoe fits you may aswell use it. Why crying about a build that works. If you want to win a duel you play pet sorc or bleedblade, if you want to be good with magdk you better use a good build and then magdk is really strong in pvp.

The only place where magdk is lackluster is in bomb groups. They are great in 1v1, 1vX, small scale, keep defences and Xv1.

So you want an unnerfed magdk vs the current game?
Everyone would choose that because it's much better to have no block cost, old sustain mechanics etc.
But that's the same for all classes that's not related to class changes but to complete game changes

(Prenote: Undodgable embers was broken because of the instant, decent damage dot/heal it gave, powerlash wasn't, since it took 3gcd's to setup, and in that time the setup could be cloaked, dodged, streaked, or dealt with via immunity. You would only die to it if you made a mistake. Now it gets dodged easily 75% of the time if even set up.)

The thing is, the strongest defense, cloak, didn't get a nerf, nor did shields, (but sustain sorted that problem) and whilst NB siphoning did, it was still top tier for sustain. Wheras DK got the harshest nerfs, (a pretty eh class pre morrow where immortal tankplars, and proc sets ran rife, though was FOTM with desert rose for about 1 month before they nerfed it) Everything pertaining to stand your ground was nerfed, not just permablock tanks, but wrath, any sustain etc, because of bad balancing.

Destro resto you say combines with good healing, but then templar/warden have better in that department, whilst having a better class defense. (I do think on a DK the healing is very strong offensively, but not warden/temp level) Its not that it doesn't work, its just that why run it when any other mag class does it better? Even with destro resto I wouldn't rate molten higher that entropy personally, but that is just a side note, I don't heavy attack enough for it to be near worth.

DK isn't a bad class for pure sealclubbing 1vXs. (Honestly I find it better than my stamsorc) Bad players cannot manage their stam, and can't dent my health. But for actual true openworld, they suck. Any class bar Templar and stamDK does better, because mobility and disengagement, whilst mitigating, is key. Hence stamblade, magsorc (even in their nerfed state) and stamden are the more common classes, and in places where mobility and disengagement and good dynamic/scaling defense isn't needed, like 1v1/Xv1/BGs. DK is great.

TL;DR: DK is OK in the grand scheme of things, but they have continuously gotten worse with marginal, and just because some other classes got nerfed, and DK looks better in comparison, it doesn't magically fix DKs openworld issues that have persisted since 1.6. I can, and do play well with mine, but as someone who has played for too damn long, I know they are nothing to a top tier class like NB/warden.

That's the issue you compare magdk to stamwarden and stamnb the two specs which are currently overperfoming. And Magdk should never ever be compared to what it was capable of back in 1.6 it was more broken than anything that has ever plagued this game.

Nothing forces you to use the power whip right after you proc it, that's the worst time to use it, you have rooted or stunned the enemy before so almost everyone you fight will dodge right after this still people do the same mistake over and over again and then say that the skill doesn't hit often although they use it in a situation where 95% of all players will dodge. If you wait one gcd you can pull a much better burst rota.
You use FoO then embers---> talons ----> whip----> deep breath(will hit through dodge)---> leap into power lash + deep breath explosion.
That's what works vs almost anyone and i waste maybe 10% of my power lash procs because i stopped using it like i did when it was undodgeable.

Magdk got much better when you look what they were after 1.6 and their current state. They got better with every patch, the number of magdks on Pc EU was maybe 5-7 and one of them was our Khajiit overlord.
Now we have countless of players who came back to the class and they enjoy it. Some of them still think 1.5 magdk was balanced and want it to be like this but those who didn't play it back then alone or not at all realise that magdk is a great spec that doesn't need many buffs. The only thing magdk needs is snare removal + immunity on reflective plate and people are fighting for it

Agreed.

Snare removal and Immunity on Wings and MagDK is superb.

If you want:

#stamspammableDK

Then I want:

#magexecuteDK

Win/win, right?

Not sure what else to talk about since no one from ZOS has actively engaged in this thread to show that they're listening to our feedback.
Imagine sending in reports to your job about a particular issue and you don't hear back for days, you'll start to imagine that what you've been doing is a waste of time.

I'm not asking for much but at-least someone from ZOS could just give us a lurk or a response to ones feedback is all I'm asking for right now. These forums just feel like a place where others will vent our their frustration or praise the changes (ZOS actively responds to those comments) until the changes are inevitably shoved down our throats.

Lastly for a prime example take a look at dev tracker, no developer has commented on any feedback post since the release of the PTS. Not even @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom . We're suppose to give feedback but then get not even a single response showing that our feedback is taken seriously so how can I remain positive and keep on wasting my time typing up a storm on the thread when I know all is for naught @Toc de Malsvi

StamDK not having an execute will basically put it behind everything else that doesn't have an execute. Did some group parses and executes are doing so much damage that sub 25 burns are over before any considerable amount of damage from Poison Injection can bring the parse up.

Basically all dps without an execute is going to fall way, way behind.

I'm getting the feeling that my StamDK may not be my main anymore during Summersett. I was a good 10-15k behind everyone else as the last 25% of the 50m dummy melted off.

I know this thread has been mostly about PvP, but bloodthirsty may force StamDK in pve to the bottom of the heap.

I feel like poorman's bloodthorn passive needs to be better without any strings like burning/poisoned status effect attached. It is really going to difficult for it to be any good when it only works against those that are not shield/cloak/purge/certain race builds. Guaranteed every 5 seconds with both stam AND magicka would be a lot better. Because this class is really super reliant on block if you want to truly pvp in openworld solo or small man.

Destro or DW/resto is nice and all but any competent builds will tear through the healing ward within a sec and destro weaving is so clunky with whip when it gets stuck in the full charge heavy attack motion. If those resource regen proc becomes guaranteed, I guess we can keep the high skill costs. Because DK skills are basically the most expensive on average in the game. Also, increasing Cauterize heal range is a hit to the solo DKs because it could always go heal that 16k health stealthblade within 28m of you instead of you. I do not like this change. Also, please stop trying to make people use things like obsidian shard for real. It's just... unreliable. Too unreliable imo. If it healed the caster AND a target, it might see some use but like healing ward, I hate how caster can just basically die a second later trying to heal themselves only for the heal to go to some stealthblade. Please make skills reliable and relevant to dot or defense.

My personal experience prior to PTS:

The statement made by so many that any player could perform better on another class than on a stam DK is purely anecdotal. It would be virtually impossible to remove the many sources of bias and error in testing a players performance between classes. Much of a players performance has more to do with their gaming style and preference in relation to specific class composition rather than a classes benefits or deficiencies, and that is completely beside the fact that their performance is also dependent upon their opponents. There are far too many dependencies to make that claim and retain a shred of reasoned respect. Individual players may feel that way about a specific class but attempting to state personal experiences and feelings as universal facts is ludicrous.

Since the PTS has dropped for Summerset I have spent the majority of my time in PVP, fights are few and far between. I have tried out 7-8 different setups and dualed somewhere between 20-30 people. I have taken keeps and resources and played around with guards just to see how they changed. In those duals I only encountered 2 people I did not beat at all, of those two only one did I dual more than twice and on more than two setups. Not surprisingly that player was a mag DK with wings, the other player was a stam DK. Of the rest of the duals I won as many or more of my fights between players, some I traded 2-2 others I won 4-1 or more.

So I do not think that stam DK's are on the verge of irrelevance, nor do I think they are in some kind of ridiculous dilemma. They are very probably not on top of the meta based on so many players opinions. However my experience is that they are doing just fine.

Is there any chance that Fiery Grip and its morphs will ever be fixed? It's one of my absolute favorite abilites in terms of design/impact and i would love to run it. It just has so many bugs. A gapcloser with fire damage, major expedition and empower looked so good on paper.

It would be possible to change Fiery Grip and its morphs in a certain way: Make both morphs a gapcloser (the whole pull thingy will never be balanced or work as intended) and make one a stamina version. The magicka version stays as of now, but make the stamina version do poison damage, give minor expedition and snare immunity for its duration. And then let reflective scales be as it is now on the PTS.

And when you're at it, fix the whole thing with the z-axis. This affects abilities like dragon leap too for example.

Carbonised wrote: »

Some people could perhaps benefit from a re-read of this topic's description, which goes "This is the official feedback thread for the Dragonknight combat balance and ability changes." It doesn't say "official feedback thread for the Stamina Dragonknight combat balance and ability changes as it pertains to PvP".

Considering that you have now filled the majority of the last 8 pages with circular discussions and arguments about stamDK in PvP, some people would consider it polite to let others have their say as well.

While I'm fully aware that stamDK PvP is the be-all and end-all for some people here, that doesn't mean you get to take complete ownership of this thread.

In general, this feedback thread would benefit vastly if people sticked to leaving their own feedback on changes and balance instead of seeing it as their mission to scream and yell at anyone they happen to not agree with.

This is how you get things done on these forums. Want to know why selene and tremorscale got nerfed? Because people spammed the posts that they have to be nerfed.

This post is about Balance Not imbalance because that's what most Magdks here want.
They want to go back to pre 1.6 Magdks and everyone who played back then knows that it was absolutely ridiculous and the most op thing that ever plagued pvp.

When people propose unbalanced changes then they should face reality and not cry that people don't like their ideas. Discussions work better than just ignoring people because people don't have the same opinion and can base it on facts.

Bodycounter wrote: »

I mean, yeah, i would love to use the chains to pull people to me. I loved this ability since beta, but it is plain broken most of the times. Zenimax was pretty clear, that the old version of Fiery Grip was used in a way very unhealthy for the game.

At this point i would be happy if anything would happen to the chains, because it was such an iconic ability and probably still is.

To the second statement: Im not really sure, if mDK needs a 6 seconds snare immunity.

No one needs a 6 seconds snare immunity without huge opportunity cost (rally and FM) but i always said that a 2-3 seconds snare immunity is needed on the classes with bad mobility (templar and DK) perferably on all classes.

I still think that they should change Stone Giant into a physical damage skill (and cost stamina). Our medium armor stamDK brethren could use the resistances.

Then, change Obsidian Shard to fire damage and raise the damage value up. That way, healers and mag DPS could both benefit from the skills.

It's another win/win for stam and mag DKs and it'll make Stone Fist more appealing to use in general.

Kilandros wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I still think that they should change Stone Giant into a physical damage skill (and cost stamina). Our medium armor stamDK brethren could use the resistances.

Then, change Obsidian Shard to fire damage and raise the damage value up. That way, healers and mag DPS could both benefit from the skills.

It's another win/win for stam and mag DKs and it'll make Stone Fist more appealing to use in general.

The ability just needs a total redesign. No class needs two single-target stuns. What ZOS should do is make Stone Fist into something like Assassin's Will: a 10-second buff with a proc effect. One morph is stamina, one is magicka or healing. The beauty of a proc is you don't run into issues with having a stamina spammable in the same line as Helping Hands.

@Kilandros

What buff would you suggest? As for having a stamina spammable in the same lines as Helping Hands- remember, if the skill costs stamina- they're not going to spam it.

I still think my suggestion would be helpful as a quick fix before Summerset. A complete redesign may take some time.

Side note: I was running Maelstrom Arena last night while using Obsidian Shard... its "smart heal" heals NPC in the crowd.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I still think that they should change Stone Giant into a physical damage skill (and cost stamina). Our medium armor stamDK brethren could use the resistances.

Then, change Obsidian Shard to fire damage and raise the damage value up. That way, healers and mag DPS could both benefit from the skills.

It's another win/win for stam and mag DKs and it'll make Stone Fist more appealing to use in general.

The ability just needs a total redesign. No class needs two single-target stuns. What ZOS should do is make Stone Fist into something like Assassin's Will: a 10-second buff with a proc effect. One morph is stamina, one is magicka or healing. The beauty of a proc is you don't run into issues with having a stamina spammable in the same line as Helping Hands.

@Kilandros

What buff would you suggest? As for having a stamina spammable in the same lines as Helping Hands- remember, if the skill costs stamina- they're not going to spam it.

I still think my suggestion would be helpful as a quick fix before Summerset. A complete redesign may take some time.

Side note: I was running Maelstrom Arena last night while using Obsidian Shard... its "smart heal" heals NPC in the crowd.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Here's some more constructive feedback for ZOS:

After testing Empowering Chains- I still suggest changing the skill to give minor vulnerability to the target for 2 seconds instead of Empowering the next two light attacks.

Reason: mDKs will often slot DW, SnB, or any combination thereof. Two light attacks using stamina based weapons on a magicka-based character isn't worthwhile. However, ALL DKs (stamina and magicka) both could benefit with minor vunerability on the target.

Why would u use dual wield over a fire staff next patch ?