PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance

Carbonised · April 2018

reiverx wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Earthen Heart
Ash Cloud: This ability now heals you and your allies in the area and snares enemies; note the Eruption morph remains unchanged.

Cinder Storm (Ash Cloud morph): This morph now increases the healing done.

This ability is a mess btw. There are already way too many heals in this game, that goes for all classes, but especially the magDK did not need another lackluster aoe heal over time.

First of all, let's just look at how many DK class skill already have a heal attached:
Obsidian Shard

Flame/Power Lash

Burning Ember

Cauterize

Dragon Blood

Inhale

And now also Cinder Storm

This class absolutely did not need a 7th healing skill. We also did not need more snares to become focus. The MagDK already has plenty of snares and roots, and slapping a lackluster, slow heal on an AoE snare doesn't make it any more appealing. What we did need, though, was an AoE DoT in your class kit that was at least somewhat unique and useful, like Liquid Lightning, Path of Darkness and Shards/Ritual. Those are class AoE DoTs with interesting secondary effects.

Eruption? Costs are higher than other, similar class AoEs, damage is much lower, and the only secondary effect is snare, of which we already have too many in this game, and especially as MagDKs. The only reason you use it on a magDK PvE rotation is because you have little else to put on your bar, it has somewhat long duration and is very much fire-and-forget, plus it procs for a bit of ult gain.

What you should have done was given Eruption more initial damage and slightly higher DoT ticks, lowering the costs to make cost/damage similar to other class AoE skills, while giving Cinder Storm no initial damage, less damage DoT ticks and a secondary effect such as major evasion to the DK and maybe minor evasion to allies while they are all standing in the AoE.

That would have made for some interesting choice between damage and utility/defense, and made this a strong class skill. Instead you slapped a useless HoT on a morph no one uses on a class that had 6 other class healing skills and called it a day.

This is a do-over.

You know, I was just thinking about the very same thing. DK is becoming too focused on healing mechanisms. Everything about DK has some sort of weird condition attached to it.

It seems to be Wrobel's go-to thing when he doesn't know what else to do, at least for DKs. He did it to Inferno, to obsidian shard and now also to cinder storm. "Hey just slap a heal on it and it will get popular". 3 times now, Wrobel, and 3 times it didn't work. Maybe try something else next time.

exeeter702 · April 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

Earthen Heart
Ash Cloud: This ability now heals you and your allies in the area and snares enemies; note the Eruption morph remains unchanged.

Cinder Storm (Ash Cloud morph): This morph now increases the healing done.

This ability is a mess btw. There are already way too many heals in this game, that goes for all classes, but especially the magDK did not need another lackluster aoe heal over time.

First of all, let's just look at how many DK class skill already have a heal attached:
Obsidian Shard

Flame/Power Lash

Burning Ember

Cauterize

Dragon Blood

Inhale

And now also Cinder Storm

This class absolutely did not need a 7th healing skill. We also did not need more snares to become focus. The MagDK already has plenty of snares and roots, and slapping a lackluster, slow heal on an AoE snare doesn't make it any more appealing. What we did need, though, was an AoE DoT in your class kit that was at least somewhat unique and useful, like Liquid Lightning, Path of Darkness and Shards/Ritual. Those are class AoE DoTs with interesting secondary effects.

Eruption? Costs are higher than other, similar class AoEs, damage is much lower, and the only secondary effect is snare, of which we already have too many in this game, and especially as MagDKs. The only reason you use it on a magDK PvE rotation is because you have little else to put on your bar, it has somewhat long duration and is very much fire-and-forget, plus it procs for a bit of ult gain.

What you should have done was given Eruption more initial damage and slightly higher DoT ticks, lowering the costs to make cost/damage similar to other class AoE skills, while giving Cinder Storm no initial damage, less damage DoT ticks and a secondary effect such as major evasion to the DK and maybe minor evasion to allies while they are all standing in the AoE.

That would have made for some interesting choice between damage and utility/defense, and made this a strong class skill. Instead you slapped a useless HoT on a morph no one uses on a class that had 6 other class healing skills and called it a day.

This is a do-over.

You are in the wrong mindset plain and simple. Stop lumping self survival tools like ember, lash and coagblood with healing tools meant to support groups.

MagDK has 3 specifically self healing abilities and 3 healing abilities for DK healers to potentially utilize. Aoe group heal (which is quite good atm on the pts), is not meant for your solo self magdk echoing chamber.

Change the other morph to provide more oomph for mag dks if need be, but your directed, misinformed rage at them improving DK healers is not the right angle to take.

BohnT · April 2018

exeeter702 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Earthen Heart
Ash Cloud: This ability now heals you and your allies in the area and snares enemies; note the Eruption morph remains unchanged.

Cinder Storm (Ash Cloud morph): This morph now increases the healing done.

This ability is a mess btw. There are already way too many heals in this game, that goes for all classes, but especially the magDK did not need another lackluster aoe heal over time.

First of all, let's just look at how many DK class skill already have a heal attached:
Obsidian Shard

Flame/Power Lash

Burning Ember

Cauterize

Dragon Blood

Inhale

And now also Cinder Storm

This class absolutely did not need a 7th healing skill. We also did not need more snares to become focus. The MagDK already has plenty of snares and roots, and slapping a lackluster, slow heal on an AoE snare doesn't make it any more appealing. What we did need, though, was an AoE DoT in your class kit that was at least somewhat unique and useful, like Liquid Lightning, Path of Darkness and Shards/Ritual. Those are class AoE DoTs with interesting secondary effects.

Eruption? Costs are higher than other, similar class AoEs, damage is much lower, and the only secondary effect is snare, of which we already have too many in this game, and especially as MagDKs. The only reason you use it on a magDK PvE rotation is because you have little else to put on your bar, it has somewhat long duration and is very much fire-and-forget, plus it procs for a bit of ult gain.

What you should have done was given Eruption more initial damage and slightly higher DoT ticks, lowering the costs to make cost/damage similar to other class AoE skills, while giving Cinder Storm no initial damage, less damage DoT ticks and a secondary effect such as major evasion to the DK and maybe minor evasion to allies while they are all standing in the AoE.

That would have made for some interesting choice between damage and utility/defense, and made this a strong class skill. Instead you slapped a useless HoT on a morph no one uses on a class that had 6 other class healing skills and called it a day.

This is a do-over.

You are in the wrong mindset plain and simple. Stop lumping self survival tools like ember, lash and coagblood with healing tools meant to support groups.

MagDK has 3 specifically self healing abilities and 3 healing abilities for DK healers to potentially utilize. Aoe group heal (which is quite good atm on the pts), is not meant for your solo self magdk echoing chamber.

Change the other morph to provide more oomph for mag dks if need be, but your directed, misinformed rage at them improving DK healers is not the right angle to take.

Thank you, i didn't want to bother with writing this down but Thank you for doing it

Aerem · April 2018

I am actually pretty optimistic about next patch. While Cinder storm is a weaker Rapid Regen, I think it will be fairly useful.

Think of it like a Nightblade's path, the hot is decent and I think the snare will actually be more useful than people give it credit for.

Especially for resource fights I can see it being used as a mobility tool+hot.

Destro HA with deep breath, leap and powerlash is going to be massive amounts of burst.

ak_pvp · April 2018

exeeter702 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Earthen Heart
Ash Cloud: This ability now heals you and your allies in the area and snares enemies; note the Eruption morph remains unchanged.

Cinder Storm (Ash Cloud morph): This morph now increases the healing done.

This ability is a mess btw. There are already way too many heals in this game, that goes for all classes, but especially the magDK did not need another lackluster aoe heal over time.

First of all, let's just look at how many DK class skill already have a heal attached:
Obsidian Shard

Flame/Power Lash

Burning Ember

Cauterize

Dragon Blood

Inhale

And now also Cinder Storm

This class absolutely did not need a 7th healing skill. We also did not need more snares to become focus. The MagDK already has plenty of snares and roots, and slapping a lackluster, slow heal on an AoE snare doesn't make it any more appealing. What we did need, though, was an AoE DoT in your class kit that was at least somewhat unique and useful, like Liquid Lightning, Path of Darkness and Shards/Ritual. Those are class AoE DoTs with interesting secondary effects.

Eruption? Costs are higher than other, similar class AoEs, damage is much lower, and the only secondary effect is snare, of which we already have too many in this game, and especially as MagDKs. The only reason you use it on a magDK PvE rotation is because you have little else to put on your bar, it has somewhat long duration and is very much fire-and-forget, plus it procs for a bit of ult gain.

What you should have done was given Eruption more initial damage and slightly higher DoT ticks, lowering the costs to make cost/damage similar to other class AoE skills, while giving Cinder Storm no initial damage, less damage DoT ticks and a secondary effect such as major evasion to the DK and maybe minor evasion to allies while they are all standing in the AoE.

That would have made for some interesting choice between damage and utility/defense, and made this a strong class skill. Instead you slapped a useless HoT on a morph no one uses on a class that had 6 other class healing skills and called it a day.

This is a do-over.

You are in the wrong mindset plain and simple. Stop lumping self survival tools like ember, lash and coagblood with healing tools meant to support groups.

MagDK has 3 specifically self healing abilities and 3 healing abilities for DK healers to potentially utilize. Aoe group heal (which is quite good atm on the pts), is not meant for your solo self magdk echoing chamber.

Change the other morph to provide more oomph for mag dks if need be, but your directed, misinformed rage at them improving DK healers is not the right angle to take.

That pretty much is the point. Slapping a lackluster group heal that has no useful affects on another ability does nothing.

Cauterize and obsidian shard are useless. No one wants a clunky single target heal that you either get every 5s, or have to hit a mob with first. Both of these are bad in a 12 man situation. Cauterize is useful as a solo pseudoHoT. Cinderstorm could be good, but why pick a DK over a templar/warden? No reason. Both do better healing AND give unique group buffs.

They could have made cauterize AoE on target moving heal. And matching the fire theme, it could purge 1 effect every 5s to those near by, nothing OP, but it then instantly becomes unique and useful. Cinderstorm could give evasion again, then it'd be a unique and useful buff to a group, helping them evade 1shot.. Etc etc.

These *** changes are hopeless and won't make DK a worth while healer beyond 4 man.

Carbonised · April 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Earthen Heart
Ash Cloud: This ability now heals you and your allies in the area and snares enemies; note the Eruption morph remains unchanged.

Cinder Storm (Ash Cloud morph): This morph now increases the healing done.

This ability is a mess btw. There are already way too many heals in this game, that goes for all classes, but especially the magDK did not need another lackluster aoe heal over time.

First of all, let's just look at how many DK class skill already have a heal attached:
Obsidian Shard

Flame/Power Lash

Burning Ember

Cauterize

Dragon Blood

Inhale

And now also Cinder Storm

This class absolutely did not need a 7th healing skill. We also did not need more snares to become focus. The MagDK already has plenty of snares and roots, and slapping a lackluster, slow heal on an AoE snare doesn't make it any more appealing. What we did need, though, was an AoE DoT in your class kit that was at least somewhat unique and useful, like Liquid Lightning, Path of Darkness and Shards/Ritual. Those are class AoE DoTs with interesting secondary effects.

Eruption? Costs are higher than other, similar class AoEs, damage is much lower, and the only secondary effect is snare, of which we already have too many in this game, and especially as MagDKs. The only reason you use it on a magDK PvE rotation is because you have little else to put on your bar, it has somewhat long duration and is very much fire-and-forget, plus it procs for a bit of ult gain.

What you should have done was given Eruption more initial damage and slightly higher DoT ticks, lowering the costs to make cost/damage similar to other class AoE skills, while giving Cinder Storm no initial damage, less damage DoT ticks and a secondary effect such as major evasion to the DK and maybe minor evasion to allies while they are all standing in the AoE.

That would have made for some interesting choice between damage and utility/defense, and made this a strong class skill. Instead you slapped a useless HoT on a morph no one uses on a class that had 6 other class healing skills and called it a day.

This is a do-over.

You are in the wrong mindset plain and simple. Stop lumping self survival tools like ember, lash and coagblood with healing tools meant to support groups.

MagDK has 3 specifically self healing abilities and 3 healing abilities for DK healers to potentially utilize. Aoe group heal (which is quite good atm on the pts), is not meant for your solo self magdk echoing chamber.

Change the other morph to provide more oomph for mag dks if need be, but your directed, misinformed rage at them improving DK healers is not the right angle to take.

That pretty much is the point. Slapping a lackluster group heal that has no useful affects on another ability does nothing.

Cauterize and obsidian shard are useless. No one wants a clunky single target heal that you either get every 5s, or have to hit a mob with first. Both of these are bad in a 12 man situation. Cauterize is useful as a solo pseudoHoT. Cinderstorm could be good, but why pick a DK over a templar/warden? No reason. Both do better healing AND give unique group buffs.

They could have made cauterize AoE on target moving heal. And matching the fire theme, it could purge 1 effect every 5s to those near by, nothing OP, but it then instantly becomes unique and useful. Cinderstorm could give evasion again, then it'd be a unique and useful buff to a group, helping them evade 1shot.. Etc etc.

These *** changes are hopeless and won't make DK a worth while healer beyond 4 man.

Exactly. "Healing" as a role in 4-12 man content today isn't about healing, it's about utility and buffs. Cauterize having the added ability of purging effects, and Cinder Storm having the added ability of Evasion, or a similar useful buff, would at least make DK supporters viable. Having them as simple heals with nothing else is useless.

They're not even good heals compared to burst heals like Warden and Templar skills or HoTs like Springs and Rapid/Mutagen.

I dare anyone to find a progressive raid team who will be asking for DK healers because of these changes ..

Kilandros · April 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Earthen Heart
Ash Cloud: This ability now heals you and your allies in the area and snares enemies; note the Eruption morph remains unchanged.

Cinder Storm (Ash Cloud morph): This morph now increases the healing done.

This ability is a mess btw. There are already way too many heals in this game, that goes for all classes, but especially the magDK did not need another lackluster aoe heal over time.

First of all, let's just look at how many DK class skill already have a heal attached:
Obsidian Shard

Flame/Power Lash

Burning Ember

Cauterize

Dragon Blood

Inhale

And now also Cinder Storm

This class absolutely did not need a 7th healing skill. We also did not need more snares to become focus. The MagDK already has plenty of snares and roots, and slapping a lackluster, slow heal on an AoE snare doesn't make it any more appealing. What we did need, though, was an AoE DoT in your class kit that was at least somewhat unique and useful, like Liquid Lightning, Path of Darkness and Shards/Ritual. Those are class AoE DoTs with interesting secondary effects.

Eruption? Costs are higher than other, similar class AoEs, damage is much lower, and the only secondary effect is snare, of which we already have too many in this game, and especially as MagDKs. The only reason you use it on a magDK PvE rotation is because you have little else to put on your bar, it has somewhat long duration and is very much fire-and-forget, plus it procs for a bit of ult gain.

What you should have done was given Eruption more initial damage and slightly higher DoT ticks, lowering the costs to make cost/damage similar to other class AoE skills, while giving Cinder Storm no initial damage, less damage DoT ticks and a secondary effect such as major evasion to the DK and maybe minor evasion to allies while they are all standing in the AoE.

That would have made for some interesting choice between damage and utility/defense, and made this a strong class skill. Instead you slapped a useless HoT on a morph no one uses on a class that had 6 other class healing skills and called it a day.

This is a do-over.

You are in the wrong mindset plain and simple. Stop lumping self survival tools like ember, lash and coagblood with healing tools meant to support groups.

MagDK has 3 specifically self healing abilities and 3 healing abilities for DK healers to potentially utilize. Aoe group heal (which is quite good atm on the pts), is not meant for your solo self magdk echoing chamber.

Change the other morph to provide more oomph for mag dks if need be, but your directed, misinformed rage at them improving DK healers is not the right angle to take.

That pretty much is the point. Slapping a lackluster group heal that has no useful affects on another ability does nothing.

Cauterize and obsidian shard are useless. No one wants a clunky single target heal that you either get every 5s, or have to hit a mob with first. Both of these are bad in a 12 man situation. Cauterize is useful as a solo pseudoHoT. Cinderstorm could be good, but why pick a DK over a templar/warden? No reason. Both do better healing AND give unique group buffs.

They could have made cauterize AoE on target moving heal. And matching the fire theme, it could purge 1 effect every 5s to those near by, nothing OP, but it then instantly becomes unique and useful. Cinderstorm could give evasion again, then it'd be a unique and useful buff to a group, helping them evade 1shot.. Etc etc.

These *** changes are hopeless and won't make DK a worth while healer beyond 4 man.

Exactly. "Healing" as a role in 4-12 man content today isn't about healing, it's about utility and buffs. Cauterize having the added ability of purging effects, and Cinder Storm having the added ability of Evasion, or a similar useful buff, would at least make DK supporters viable. Having them as simple heals with nothing else is useless.

I dare anyone to find a progressive raid team who will be asking for DK healers because of these changes ..

Yeah, anyone who thinks end-game trials groups are going to take DKs as healers now because of Obsidian Shard (lol) and Cinder Storm (tbf I actually like the new cinder storm, but it needs a bigger radius and utility other than a snare) are delusional.

Carbonised · April 2018

@exeeter702

Since you speak of education, I'm sure you don't need to be educated on the fact that this is a random heal hitting a random target and can't be targeted at anyone in particular. So while a Templar can direct his BoL at the player he wants to heal (plus someone else), the DK will heal the DD while the tank dies next to him. The BoL and other burst heals are also instant, while the fireball needs traveling time.

The resto staff heals and Templar heals and Warden heals also get augmented by their passives, since they have strong, healing passives that give secondary effects. The fireball is from a skill tree focused on damage, and gains exactly nothing from its passives.

So while you can screenshot a high number and think everything is fine and dandy, you forget that this is is a delayed, non-targeted heal with no secondary effects that get augmented by no skill passives.

It also takes up a slot for Inner Light, which means 7 % less magicka for you, and no mage guild passives - unless you slot the Cauterize on top of inner light, which is just wasted double buff solely for the benefit of being able to cast this awkward, random targeted heal.

But good luck keeping your group alive and buffed with a single targeted random burst heal and a small AoE HoT with low value ticks and snare as the only secondary effect.

BohnT · April 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

@exeeter702

Since you speak of education, I'm sure you don't need to be educated on the fact that this is a random heal hitting a random target and can't be targeted at anyone in particular. So while a Templar can direct his BoL at the player he wants to heal (plus someone else), the DK will heal the DD while the tank dies next to him. The BoL and other burst heals are also instant, while the fireball needs traveling time.

The resto staff heals and Templar heals and Warden heals also get augmented by their passives, since they have strong, healing passives that give secondary effects. The fireball is from a skill tree focused on damage, and gains exactly nothing from its passives.

So while you can screenshot a high number and think everything is fine and dandy, you forget that this is is a delayed, non-targeted heal with no secondary effects that get augmented by no skill passives.

It also takes up a slot for Inner Light, which means 7 % less magicka for you, and no mage guild passives - unless you slot the Cauterize on top of inner light, which is just wasted double buff solely for the benefit of being able to cast this awkward, random targeted heal.

But good luck keeping your group alive and buffed with a single targeted random burst heal and a small AoE HoT with low value ticks and snare as the only secondary effect.

do you know the term smart heal?
Do you know that templar can't Choose the target, he always heals himself + the target with the lowest health but not a target selected by him.

Kilandros · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@exeeter702

Since you speak of education, I'm sure you don't need to be educated on the fact that this is a random heal hitting a random target and can't be targeted at anyone in particular. So while a Templar can direct his BoL at the player he wants to heal (plus someone else), the DK will heal the DD while the tank dies next to him. The BoL and other burst heals are also instant, while the fireball needs traveling time.

The resto staff heals and Templar heals and Warden heals also get augmented by their passives, since they have strong, healing passives that give secondary effects. The fireball is from a skill tree focused on damage, and gains exactly nothing from its passives.

So while you can screenshot a high number and think everything is fine and dandy, you forget that this is is a delayed, non-targeted heal with no secondary effects that get augmented by no skill passives.

It also takes up a slot for Inner Light, which means 7 % less magicka for you, and no mage guild passives - unless you slot the Cauterize on top of inner light, which is just wasted double buff solely for the benefit of being able to cast this awkward, random targeted heal.

But good luck keeping your group alive and buffed with a single targeted random burst heal and a small AoE HoT with low value ticks and snare as the only secondary effect.

do you know the term smart heal?
Do you know that templar can't Choose the target, he always heals himself + the target with the lowest health but not a target selected by him.

This is wrong. BoL was changed a couple of patches ago to always heal a target in a conal radius in front of where the Templar is facing. Look it up. Also, Templar does not always heal himself with BoL. That's kind of a ridiculous claim.

exeeter702 · April 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

@exeeter702

Since you speak of education, I'm sure you don't need to be educated on the fact that this is a random heal hitting a random target and can't be targeted at anyone in particular. So while a Templar can direct his BoL at the player he wants to heal (plus someone else), the DK will heal the DD while the tank dies next to him. The BoL and other burst heals are also instant, while the fireball needs traveling time.

The resto staff heals and Templar heals and Warden heals also get augmented by their passives, since they have strong, healing passives that give secondary effects. The fireball is from a skill tree focused on damage, and gains exactly nothing from its passives.

So while you can screenshot a high number and think everything is fine and dandy, you forget that this is is a delayed, non-targeted heal with no secondary effects that get augmented by no skill passives.

It also takes up a slot for Inner Light, which means 7 % less magicka for you, and no mage guild passives - unless you slot the Cauterize on top of inner light, which is just wasted double buff solely for the benefit of being able to cast this awkward, random targeted heal.

But good luck keeping your group alive and buffed with a single targeted random burst heal and a small AoE HoT with low value ticks and snare as the only secondary effect.

Enough with the hyperbolic selective reasoning. The heals provided here are meant to augment the class in the healing role not have them be solely relied on, dont be ridiculous. Between springs, cauterize, ash cloud combat prayer all of which augmented by on demand major mending, orbs, ele drain etc, the discrepancy here is far smaller than you are trying to make a case for. Cauterize just got a projectile speed buff as well, it fires as fast as it needs to, i have yet to encounter in actual use, a scenario where the heal does not reach a target who needs it in time. 360 degree smart heal is fine, when it costs as little as it does and has the application range that it has. It does compete with inner light, these are the decisons the devs want players to make, you can make a case for slotting both, and having inner light on primary heal bar and cauterize on back but that is besides the point.

Either way i will continue to reinforce the stance that zos has been taking and demonstrate in game the practical uses of such changes. These are good changes overall and defintely help one of the 5 healers in this game was in need of a small boost in the hps department.

BohnT · April 2018

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@exeeter702

Since you speak of education, I'm sure you don't need to be educated on the fact that this is a random heal hitting a random target and can't be targeted at anyone in particular. So while a Templar can direct his BoL at the player he wants to heal (plus someone else), the DK will heal the DD while the tank dies next to him. The BoL and other burst heals are also instant, while the fireball needs traveling time.

The resto staff heals and Templar heals and Warden heals also get augmented by their passives, since they have strong, healing passives that give secondary effects. The fireball is from a skill tree focused on damage, and gains exactly nothing from its passives.

So while you can screenshot a high number and think everything is fine and dandy, you forget that this is is a delayed, non-targeted heal with no secondary effects that get augmented by no skill passives.

It also takes up a slot for Inner Light, which means 7 % less magicka for you, and no mage guild passives - unless you slot the Cauterize on top of inner light, which is just wasted double buff solely for the benefit of being able to cast this awkward, random targeted heal.

But good luck keeping your group alive and buffed with a single targeted random burst heal and a small AoE HoT with low value ticks and snare as the only secondary effect.

do you know the term smart heal?
Do you know that templar can't Choose the target, he always heals himself + the target with the lowest health but not a target selected by him.

This is wrong. BoL was changed a couple of patches ago to always heal a target in a conal radius in front of where the Templar is facing. Look it up. Also, Templar does not always heal himself with BoL. That's kind of a ridiculous claim.

yeah and which target in front of the templar is Chosen? right the one with the lowest health.

BoL was my bad there was a wrong skill description a while ago with the german Client

exeeter702 · April 2018

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@exeeter702

Since you speak of education, I'm sure you don't need to be educated on the fact that this is a random heal hitting a random target and can't be targeted at anyone in particular. So while a Templar can direct his BoL at the player he wants to heal (plus someone else), the DK will heal the DD while the tank dies next to him. The BoL and other burst heals are also instant, while the fireball needs traveling time.

The resto staff heals and Templar heals and Warden heals also get augmented by their passives, since they have strong, healing passives that give secondary effects. The fireball is from a skill tree focused on damage, and gains exactly nothing from its passives.

So while you can screenshot a high number and think everything is fine and dandy, you forget that this is is a delayed, non-targeted heal with no secondary effects that get augmented by no skill passives.

It also takes up a slot for Inner Light, which means 7 % less magicka for you, and no mage guild passives - unless you slot the Cauterize on top of inner light, which is just wasted double buff solely for the benefit of being able to cast this awkward, random targeted heal.

But good luck keeping your group alive and buffed with a single targeted random burst heal and a small AoE HoT with low value ticks and snare as the only secondary effect.

do you know the term smart heal?
Do you know that templar can't Choose the target, he always heals himself + the target with the lowest health but not a target selected by him.

This is wrong. BoL was changed a couple of patches ago to always heal a target in a conal radius in front of where the Templar is facing. Look it up. Also, Templar does not always heal himself with BoL. That's kind of a ridiculous claim.

Correct, however it is still a smart heal as it will decide for you, who it will heal based on applicable targets in range. There is a benefit to not needing to face a target to heal them in an emergency scenario.

Kilandros · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@exeeter702

Since you speak of education, I'm sure you don't need to be educated on the fact that this is a random heal hitting a random target and can't be targeted at anyone in particular. So while a Templar can direct his BoL at the player he wants to heal (plus someone else), the DK will heal the DD while the tank dies next to him. The BoL and other burst heals are also instant, while the fireball needs traveling time.

The resto staff heals and Templar heals and Warden heals also get augmented by their passives, since they have strong, healing passives that give secondary effects. The fireball is from a skill tree focused on damage, and gains exactly nothing from its passives.

So while you can screenshot a high number and think everything is fine and dandy, you forget that this is is a delayed, non-targeted heal with no secondary effects that get augmented by no skill passives.

It also takes up a slot for Inner Light, which means 7 % less magicka for you, and no mage guild passives - unless you slot the Cauterize on top of inner light, which is just wasted double buff solely for the benefit of being able to cast this awkward, random targeted heal.

But good luck keeping your group alive and buffed with a single targeted random burst heal and a small AoE HoT with low value ticks and snare as the only secondary effect.

do you know the term smart heal?
Do you know that templar can't Choose the target, he always heals himself + the target with the lowest health but not a target selected by him.

This is wrong. BoL was changed a couple of patches ago to always heal a target in a conal radius in front of where the Templar is facing. Look it up. Also, Templar does not always heal himself with BoL. That's kind of a ridiculous claim.

yeah and which target in front of the templar is Chosen? right the one with the lowest health.

BoL was my bad there was a wrong skill description a while ago with the german Client

You said Templar can't choose the target, the ability was literally changed a couple of patches ago so that Templars have more control choosing targets. You were wrong on both counts.

BohnT · April 2018

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@exeeter702

Since you speak of education, I'm sure you don't need to be educated on the fact that this is a random heal hitting a random target and can't be targeted at anyone in particular. So while a Templar can direct his BoL at the player he wants to heal (plus someone else), the DK will heal the DD while the tank dies next to him. The BoL and other burst heals are also instant, while the fireball needs traveling time.

The resto staff heals and Templar heals and Warden heals also get augmented by their passives, since they have strong, healing passives that give secondary effects. The fireball is from a skill tree focused on damage, and gains exactly nothing from its passives.

So while you can screenshot a high number and think everything is fine and dandy, you forget that this is is a delayed, non-targeted heal with no secondary effects that get augmented by no skill passives.

It also takes up a slot for Inner Light, which means 7 % less magicka for you, and no mage guild passives - unless you slot the Cauterize on top of inner light, which is just wasted double buff solely for the benefit of being able to cast this awkward, random targeted heal.

But good luck keeping your group alive and buffed with a single targeted random burst heal and a small AoE HoT with low value ticks and snare as the only secondary effect.

do you know the term smart heal?
Do you know that templar can't Choose the target, he always heals himself + the target with the lowest health but not a target selected by him.

This is wrong. BoL was changed a couple of patches ago to always heal a target in a conal radius in front of where the Templar is facing. Look it up. Also, Templar does not always heal himself with BoL. That's kind of a ridiculous claim.

yeah and which target in front of the templar is Chosen? right the one with the lowest health.

BoL was my bad there was a wrong skill description a while ago with the german Client

You said Templar can't choose the target, the ability was literally changed a couple of patches ago so that Templars have more control choosing targets. You were wrong on both counts.

you can't Control the direct target you simply can't you can only reduce the are to a 180 cone where the target can be in but you can't target a specific target

MaxwellC · April 2018

@exeeter702
In all seriousness the developers already take PTS forums with a grain of salt and a prime example would be people (including myself) providing constructive feedback about terrible changes to the DK class 2-4 PTS(s) ago regarding the changes to earthen heart and how to improve the DK passives as a whole.

A few PTS forums ago people argued about how Stamina DK still needs something for PvP as it's weak and here we are still with the same predicament while Mag DK still looks to suffer in PvE. The players who talked about "Well the streamer said this so obviously its true" completely ignored those who warned about the issue not being addressed correctly. We now have more healing abilities attached to the DK class rather than improvements in cost for skills, stronger initial damage skills, slightly stronger DoTs, Stamina AoE (more so player based i.e FoO), etc.

Anti_Virus · April 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@exeeter702
In all seriousness the developers already take PTS forums with a grain of salt and a prime example would be people (including myself) providing constructive feedback about terrible changes to the DK class 2-4 PTS(s) ago regarding the changes to earthen heart and how to improve the DK passives as a whole.

A few PTS forums ago people argued about how Stamina DK still needs something for PvP as it's weak and here we are still with the same predicament while Mag DK still looks to suffer in PvE. The players who talked about "Well the streamer said this so obviously its true" completely ignored those who warned about the issue not being addressed correctly. We now have more healing abilities attached to the DK class rather than improvements in cost for skills, stronger initial damage skills, slightly stronger DoTs, Stamina AoE (more so player based i.e FoO), etc.

Don't the devs read the Reddit posts instead for the most part?

MaxwellC · April 2018

@Anti_Virus
I've got no clue but i just realized something too; With this patch doesn't Stamina DK lose empower buff from wrecking blow and by that I mean we lose the old Wrecking blow into take flight. If that's true then we just got nerfed again lol.

Anti_Virus · April 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Anti_Virus
I've got no clue but i just realized something too; With this patch doesn't Stamina DK lose empower buff from wrecking blow and by that I mean we lose the old Wrecking blow into take flight. If that's true then we just got nerfed again lol.

Yeah holy crap I forgot about that. It now buffs Light Attack damge now.

Rip Take flight.

I keep hearing that imbue weapons would be a good spammable for Dks and sorcs but Idk how it would work in practicality.

exeeter702 · April 2018

@Carbonised just a note on passives for dk healers. Lets elaborate on templar passives and how they directly effect healing in an objectively superior way to a dk for example, just some food for thought.

Templars have mending first off, this passive benefits none of the resto staff healing, strictly boosting restoring light spells, generally speaking, in most trial environments this mainly only effects BOL and the paltry hot value of cleansing ritual. Outside of these 2 skills, most templars, as with all healers, utilize combat prayer and springs both of which only get augmented by resto staff passives. Then we look at sacred ground, minor mending is defintely a nice perk, unfortunate it is no longer major mending, but seeing how much raw healing they had access to, this nerf has hardly changed their game. Then you have the nice quality of life perk of resurrecting faster, granted ive yet to heal a trial were the healers themselves are preffered to rez.

Dks have major mending tied to mountians blessing, putting them in a position to have superior ult generation as a healer compared to a templar even with consideration to templars small reduced cost passive. Major mending changes to 6 seconds with morph lines up direcrly with mountians blessing passive c/d which is easy for dk healers to maintain.

MaxwellC · April 2018

@Anti_Virus
Yeah I honestly do not know where to begin with imbue weapons as I don't really know of an example to make an opinion about it.
If it is something like Dragon age inquisition/skyrim then that would be an interesting change but I'd have to test the practicality of it before giving a opinion against it. When it comes to the DK class I don't want my class to be too OP but I want it to be just right and as I stated before; Stamina DK performs well in PvE but in PvP there's major issues with its performance, while Magicka DK performs well in PvP (almost too good) while Magicka DK in PvE just blows.

Anti_Virus · April 2018

@exeeter702

Dk healers should absolutely be a thing but at the same time stamina Dk needs needs some more stam morphs.

Thread after thread has been made giving suggestions and patch after patch nothing, not even a word.

I just want them to give a statement saying they will not make changes so I can stop wasting my time posting comments about stam dk on the forums. Constructive or not our feedback really means nothing for the most part and this is proven by the fact that they had to go out there way and 'elect' a singular person to represent a class shows they think the community is too incompetent to give good feedback.

These feedback threads seem to be a Pr fluff per pts patch one of the best changes from community feed back to actually go through is snare removal on reflective plate and even that went through half arsed.

pieratsos · April 2018

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@exeeter702

Since you speak of education, I'm sure you don't need to be educated on the fact that this is a random heal hitting a random target and can't be targeted at anyone in particular. So while a Templar can direct his BoL at the player he wants to heal (plus someone else), the DK will heal the DD while the tank dies next to him. The BoL and other burst heals are also instant, while the fireball needs traveling time.

The resto staff heals and Templar heals and Warden heals also get augmented by their passives, since they have strong, healing passives that give secondary effects. The fireball is from a skill tree focused on damage, and gains exactly nothing from its passives.

So while you can screenshot a high number and think everything is fine and dandy, you forget that this is is a delayed, non-targeted heal with no secondary effects that get augmented by no skill passives.

It also takes up a slot for Inner Light, which means 7 % less magicka for you, and no mage guild passives - unless you slot the Cauterize on top of inner light, which is just wasted double buff solely for the benefit of being able to cast this awkward, random targeted heal.

But good luck keeping your group alive and buffed with a single targeted random burst heal and a small AoE HoT with low value ticks and snare as the only secondary effect.

do you know the term smart heal?
Do you know that templar can't Choose the target, he always heals himself + the target with the lowest health but not a target selected by him.

This is wrong. BoL was changed a couple of patches ago to always heal a target in a conal radius in front of where the Templar is facing. Look it up. Also, Templar does not always heal himself with BoL. That's kind of a ridiculous claim.

yeah and which target in front of the templar is Chosen? right the one with the lowest health.

BoL was my bad there was a wrong skill description a while ago with the german Client

You said Templar can't choose the target, the ability was literally changed a couple of patches ago so that Templars have more control choosing targets. You were wrong on both counts.

you can't Control the direct target you simply can't you can only reduce the are to a 180 cone where the target can be in but you can't target a specific target

Why are you belaboring this point? A "smart" heal that has no control is different from a "smart" heal with directional control. You're acting like it's the same thing in a thinly veiled attempt to save face and it isn't working. Why can't people on these forums own up to the dumb things they say and move on with their lives?

Yes they are different. But they are in different in favour of cauterize cause you dont even need to target it. Why would anyone consider a 180 degree smart heal better than a 360 degree smart heal?

ak_pvp · April 2018

OK, with that out of the way. Can we give DK some useful functions for PvP. Sustain is good now, mainly a PvE change, but still useful for PvP.

As I have stated. "Tank class" is outdated and wrong. Warden and templar do tanking as good or better, with worthwhile class defenses, and nb/sorc have better class defenses and mobility.

Block is needed to unsustainability against two or more people. The defense passives are weak, and all together worse than minor protection, since one is while block is up only, (only the blocked attacks) and the other is spell resistance only.

Both DKs need more defense. Wings. They have been snipped. They need some glue and a bandaid. 4 attacks is 1s against two ranged targets, for 4k mag, and so much doesn't get reflected. (bird now should, its like a normal projectile)

Base morph. 3 reflects per person, 4s uptime. Worse 1v1, better for openworld. (possible change. Base morph and plate work only like deflects/absorbs, so less offensive, but then are 4 projectiles per person. )

Fire scale: Guarantees burning on targets the projectile reflects to. (no matter the race/shields) this becomes the offensive morph. If base is turned to a deflect, then this one stays a reflect.

Plate: The latest snare removal change was completely unusable, unlike something like mist>cloak, or purging dots, DK has nothing to prevent snares post removal. If you have a DK dot on you, prepare for snare. 4s snare immunity, worse than FM, and less tank than mist.

At that point MagDK would be good for OW. (maybe revert the dodge nerf, was way too painful)

StamDK needs heavy thematic buffs. Volatile or hardened armour poison damage and scale of highest state, but maintain mag cost for stam convenience. Burning talons becomes poisonous talons and stam. Tanks need other for PvE. Deep breath becomes stamina/poison, and sets targets hit with the explode off-balance. I don't think poison whip is needed, because with poison talons, dizzy can land better. (deep, talons and dizzy +leap seems cool) But if any better StamDKs want to comment.

ak_pvp · April 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@exeeter702

Since you speak of education, I'm sure you don't need to be educated on the fact that this is a random heal hitting a random target and can't be targeted at anyone in particular. So while a Templar can direct his BoL at the player he wants to heal (plus someone else), the DK will heal the DD while the tank dies next to him. The BoL and other burst heals are also instant, while the fireball needs traveling time.

The resto staff heals and Templar heals and Warden heals also get augmented by their passives, since they have strong, healing passives that give secondary effects. The fireball is from a skill tree focused on damage, and gains exactly nothing from its passives.

So while you can screenshot a high number and think everything is fine and dandy, you forget that this is is a delayed, non-targeted heal with no secondary effects that get augmented by no skill passives.

It also takes up a slot for Inner Light, which means 7 % less magicka for you, and no mage guild passives - unless you slot the Cauterize on top of inner light, which is just wasted double buff solely for the benefit of being able to cast this awkward, random targeted heal.

But good luck keeping your group alive and buffed with a single targeted random burst heal and a small AoE HoT with low value ticks and snare as the only secondary effect.

do you know the term smart heal?
Do you know that templar can't Choose the target, he always heals himself + the target with the lowest health but not a target selected by him.

This is wrong. BoL was changed a couple of patches ago to always heal a target in a conal radius in front of where the Templar is facing. Look it up. Also, Templar does not always heal himself with BoL. That's kind of a ridiculous claim.

yeah and which target in front of the templar is Chosen? right the one with the lowest health.

BoL was my bad there was a wrong skill description a while ago with the german Client

You said Templar can't choose the target, the ability was literally changed a couple of patches ago so that Templars have more control choosing targets. You were wrong on both counts.

you can't Control the direct target you simply can't you can only reduce the are to a 180 cone where the target can be in but you can't target a specific target

Why are you belaboring this point? A "smart" heal that has no control is different from a "smart" heal with directional control. You're acting like it's the same thing in a thinly veiled attempt to save face and it isn't working. Why can't people on these forums own up to the dumb things they say and move on with their lives?

Yes they are different. But they are in different in favour of cauterize cause you dont even need to target it. Why would anyone consider a 180 degree smart heal better than a 360 degree smart heal?

I think that whole exchange about smart healing was a bit pointless, since healers stand a bit on the outside facing the whole group anyway, and they kind of were saying the same thing differently. But BoL in that practical a little better because its an instant 3 person smart heal, vs a clunker, single person one. (and as stated has less synergies with passives)

Cauterize works well as basically a pseudohot in PvP, where the cheap bursty top up and crit help back bar for me solo.

ZOS_Mika · April 2018

We have recently removed several insulting comments from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. It is fine to disagree, but insults are inappropriate. Please keep this in mind as the thread continues.

Xvorg · April 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I'm glad noxious is not dodgeable. However its still a very weak dot and I found I didn't notice the benefits of the debuff all that much.

Noxious should be line Necromancer's poison nova from Diablo II

And you know what was good about poison nova? It was spammable

pieratsos · April 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@exeeter702

Since you speak of education, I'm sure you don't need to be educated on the fact that this is a random heal hitting a random target and can't be targeted at anyone in particular. So while a Templar can direct his BoL at the player he wants to heal (plus someone else), the DK will heal the DD while the tank dies next to him. The BoL and other burst heals are also instant, while the fireball needs traveling time.

The resto staff heals and Templar heals and Warden heals also get augmented by their passives, since they have strong, healing passives that give secondary effects. The fireball is from a skill tree focused on damage, and gains exactly nothing from its passives.

So while you can screenshot a high number and think everything is fine and dandy, you forget that this is is a delayed, non-targeted heal with no secondary effects that get augmented by no skill passives.

It also takes up a slot for Inner Light, which means 7 % less magicka for you, and no mage guild passives - unless you slot the Cauterize on top of inner light, which is just wasted double buff solely for the benefit of being able to cast this awkward, random targeted heal.

But good luck keeping your group alive and buffed with a single targeted random burst heal and a small AoE HoT with low value ticks and snare as the only secondary effect.

do you know the term smart heal?
Do you know that templar can't Choose the target, he always heals himself + the target with the lowest health but not a target selected by him.

This is wrong. BoL was changed a couple of patches ago to always heal a target in a conal radius in front of where the Templar is facing. Look it up. Also, Templar does not always heal himself with BoL. That's kind of a ridiculous claim.

yeah and which target in front of the templar is Chosen? right the one with the lowest health.

BoL was my bad there was a wrong skill description a while ago with the german Client

You said Templar can't choose the target, the ability was literally changed a couple of patches ago so that Templars have more control choosing targets. You were wrong on both counts.

you can't Control the direct target you simply can't you can only reduce the are to a 180 cone where the target can be in but you can't target a specific target

Why are you belaboring this point? A "smart" heal that has no control is different from a "smart" heal with directional control. You're acting like it's the same thing in a thinly veiled attempt to save face and it isn't working. Why can't people on these forums own up to the dumb things they say and move on with their lives?

Yes they are different. But they are in different in favour of cauterize cause you dont even need to target it. Why would anyone consider a 180 degree smart heal better than a 360 degree smart heal?

I think that whole exchange about smart healing was a bit pointless, since healers stand a bit on the outside facing the whole group anyway, and they kind of were saying the same thing differently. But BoL in that practical a little better because its an instant 3 person smart heal, vs a clunker, single person one. (and as stated has less synergies with passives)

Cauterize works well as basically a pseudohot in PvP, where the cheap bursty top up and crit help back bar for me solo.

180 degree heals are "worse" (in terms of targeting) cause you actually need to target them urself in some sort of way.

That's really not true. With burst heals you generally want to heal someone specific, cause someone f'ed up and was standing in red or forgot to blok or whatever. With a directed heal such as Fungus from Warden or BoL from Templars, or even Combat Prayer, You can direct it directly at the one who needs it, usually the tank, since the DDs are less important and can be rez'ed.

If you want to heal your tank at a critical moment, but a DD with low health happens to be standing inside your large radius of Cauterize, guess who gets the fireball and who doesn't. This isn't "smart" healing at all. With a cone or a directed heal, you can at least aim it at the tank and away from the DD, which you cannot do in the case of cauterize. So you save the low health DD, your tank dies, and your group wipes. GG.

So no, a directed heal is not "worse", and in many cases it can actually be "better".

Exactly you need to heal someone specific. The one who screwed up and stepped in red. Aka the one who is at low hp and is going to get targeted by the heal. The difference is that one of them will heal that someone no matter where he is and the other one will only heal him if he is in front of you. In practice they will be the same crap cause u will face the one u want to heal anw but Its still kinda obvious which one is better.

Trying to create very specific scenarios like multiple people being low hp scattered all over the place just to try to say that a 180 degree heal can be better is a very very poor argument. In that scenario directed vs not directed isnt even the issue. Its the fact its an AOE heal is preferable in a situation like that. Its like comparing a ferrari with a jeep in terms of speed and you are telling me that its not really true that the ferrari is faster because in this off road uphill the jeep is faster therefore the jeep can actually be faster car. Yes it can be faster in that scenario but its not because its actually a faster car. Its because the freaking ferrari isnt built for off road up hill.

And if you are so hell bent on using a directed heal there are other options as well that actually heal more than a couple of people.

Dyride · April 2018

I'm not a DK main, but like most of the changes.

I think Reflective Plate should have 1-2 sec immunity. No more than 2 secs really since you need to recast every few secs anyways and you shouldn't be hanging out in caltrops. I also think the number of reflected projectiles should be increased considering the number of Empowered Light Attacks that are going to be flying around come Summerset.

NyassaV · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel is there anything planned to make stamdk a viable pvp spec again?
During the last pts you asked us to say what stamdk needs to be viable and we made lots of proposals, ideas for changes and balance discussions and for all of them it mostly comes down to these points:

- a strong instant stamina class spammable
- atleast 2 seconds snare immunity along with the snare removal on reflective plate
- more stamina class skills
- reworking the useless passives: elder Dragon, world in ruins
- worst ulti regen of all classes although DK sustain is build around using ultimates.

Please come to this post and tell us if you plan to change anything about stamdk or if we can simply spare our breath because it doesn't help anyway

Don't stamdk pull some of the highest numbers?

Good dueling and PvE DPS but in most forms of PvP they aren't very good

They lose to any stamnb bleed, stamsorc bleed or stamplar bleed build or any defile focused build for that matter.
They aren't really good in PvE anymore aswell. Stamsorcs and nbs pull equal or more ST while having either more cleave or bring better utility to the group.

Tell that to Highpolicy and Joarden (Think I got that right). Joarden won the legend competition 2 or 3 times and legend is full of bleedblades