Silver_Strider wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Doesn't ESO+ have enough benefits as is?
I mean, seriously.
Unlimited crafting storage
Double Bank and housing space
Crowns every month
Dyable Outfits
Free access to non-chapter DLC

When does it stop being a bonus and start becoming an entitlement badge?

Did you say "Free", please explain how paying a fee equates to free. At the end of the day we get the craft bag and double inventory slots. The crowns and the access to DLC are on par with the cost. At this point those "Free" crowns and DLC's have cost me $360.00. I am happy to pay, I enjoy the game, but that is far from "Free".

So 1500 crown AND access to the DLC without using said crowns is on par with the ~2k crowns a non subscribe would have to buy to get the same DLC? What about the 6 FREE crown crates ZOS just gave out to ESO+ members not even a week ago?

Your definition of par is clearly different than mine.

Just subscribe and get all that free stuff

Pastas wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Doesn't ESO+ have enough benefits as is?

I mean, seriously.
Unlimited crafting storage
Double Bank and housing space
Crowns every month
Dyable Outfits
Free access to non-chapter DLC

When does it stop being a bonus and start becoming an entitlement badge?

Did you say "Free", please explain how paying a fee equates to free. At the end of the day we get the craft bag and double inventory slots. The crowns and the access to DLC are on par with the cost. At this point those "Free" crowns and DLC's have cost me $360.00. I am happy to pay, I enjoy the game, but that is far from "Free".

So 1500 crown AND access to the DLC without using said crowns is on par with the ~2k crowns a non subscribe would have to buy to get the same DLC? What about the 6 FREE crown crates ZOS just gave out to ESO+ members not even a week ago?

Your definition of par is clearly different than mine.

Just subscribe and get all that free stuff

I'm already subscribed and feel the current bonuses for it are well enough as is but people will still feel entitled to every new thing that gets added to the game in 1 way or another.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Doesn't ESO+ have enough benefits as is?

I mean, seriously.
Unlimited crafting storage
Double Bank and housing space
Crowns every month
Dyable Outfits
Free access to non-chapter DLC

When does it stop being a bonus and start becoming an entitlement badge?

Did you say "Free", please explain how paying a fee equates to free. At the end of the day we get the craft bag and double inventory slots. The crowns and the access to DLC are on par with the cost. At this point those "Free" crowns and DLC's have cost me $360.00. I am happy to pay, I enjoy the game, but that is far from "Free".

So 1500 crown AND access to the DLC without using said crowns is on par with the ~2k crowns a non subscribe would have to buy to get the same DLC? What about the 6 FREE crown crates ZOS just gave out to ESO+ members not even a week ago?

Your definition of par is clearly different than mine.

Just subscribe and get all that free stuff

I'm already subscribed and feel the current bonuses for it are well enough as is but people will still feel entitled to every new thing that gets added to the game in 1 way or another.

@Silver_Strider

The consensus last year when they changed the ESO+ benefits was that more systems were needed to make up for the value lost. You might have been find with it, but the community reaction was overwhelmingly negative, to the point that ZOS made a stickied thread in the Crown Store subforum asking for input about how to add value to ESO+. Nobody cares that you're fine with paying more for less, the rest of us expect something to make up for what was lost.

Recremen wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Doesn't ESO+ have enough benefits as is?

I mean, seriously.
Unlimited crafting storage
Double Bank and housing space
Crowns every month
Dyable Outfits
Free access to non-chapter DLC

When does it stop being a bonus and start becoming an entitlement badge?

Did you say "Free", please explain how paying a fee equates to free. At the end of the day we get the craft bag and double inventory slots. The crowns and the access to DLC are on par with the cost. At this point those "Free" crowns and DLC's have cost me $360.00. I am happy to pay, I enjoy the game, but that is far from "Free".

So 1500 crown AND access to the DLC without using said crowns is on par with the ~2k crowns a non subscribe would have to buy to get the same DLC? What about the 6 FREE crown crates ZOS just gave out to ESO+ members not even a week ago?

Your definition of par is clearly different than mine.

Just subscribe and get all that free stuff

I'm already subscribed and feel the current bonuses for it are well enough as is but people will still feel entitled to every new thing that gets added to the game in 1 way or another.

@Silver_Strider

The consensus last year when they changed the ESO+ benefits was that more systems were needed to make up for the value lost. You might have been find with it, but the community reaction was overwhelmingly negative, to the point that ZOS made a stickied thread in the Crown Store subforum asking for input about how to add value to ESO+. Nobody cares that you're fine with paying more for less, the rest of us expect something to make up for what was lost.

Where's your data to back up this "consensus"?

People on the forums were upset, sure but the forums only show a minority group and without actual physical data to back up your statement, it's little more than your opinion.

I deal with facts and figures and unless ZOS releases their Sub number before and after that announcement, we have neither of those and every statement to sway the argument based on such is otherwise hearsay.

Even though I have very limited gold, and don't buy crowns other than via my sub, I'm fine with it costing gold to apply new looks and crowns to get more options per alt. I admit that I've somewhat settled into each alt having a particular look these days, so I personally don't feel the need to change things up a few times a day.

It's the dyeing that should be free to subs (if not to everyone, but I think the marketing folks might be more sold on it if it only goes to already-paying customers). It seems a good compromise. If you want to actually swap out shapes, pay the cost. But to just repaint what you have, thus giving it some flexibility depending on what you're doing while wearing it -- why does that have to cost gold when no other dyeing does?

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Doesn't ESO+ have enough benefits as is?

I mean, seriously.
Unlimited crafting storage
Double Bank and housing space
Crowns every month
Dyable Outfits
Free access to non-chapter DLC

When does it stop being a bonus and start becoming an entitlement badge?

Did you say "Free", please explain how paying a fee equates to free. At the end of the day we get the craft bag and double inventory slots. The crowns and the access to DLC are on par with the cost. At this point those "Free" crowns and DLC's have cost me $360.00. I am happy to pay, I enjoy the game, but that is far from "Free".

So 1500 crown AND access to the DLC without using said crowns is on par with the ~2k crowns a non subscribe would have to buy to get the same DLC? What about the 6 FREE crown crates ZOS just gave out to ESO+ members not even a week ago?

Your definition of par is clearly different than mine.

Just subscribe and get all that free stuff

I'm already subscribed and feel the current bonuses for it are well enough as is but people will still feel entitled to every new thing that gets added to the game in 1 way or another.

@Silver_Strider

The consensus last year when they changed the ESO+ benefits was that more systems were needed to make up for the value lost. You might have been find with it, but the community reaction was overwhelmingly negative, to the point that ZOS made a stickied thread in the Crown Store subforum asking for input about how to add value to ESO+. Nobody cares that you're fine with paying more for less, the rest of us expect something to make up for what was lost.

Where's your data to back up this "consensus"?

People on the forums were upset, sure but the forums only show a minority group and without actual physical data to back up your statement, it's little more than your opinion.

I deal with facts and figures and unless ZOS releases their Sub number before and after that announcement, we have neither of those and every statement to sway the argument based on such is otherwise hearsay.

@Silver_Strider

Looking at sub numbers wouldn't even be beneficial, though, as those change regularly for a variety of reasons. Instead, we can look at qualitative data like the public outcry and resulting adding of value to ESO+. For example, the double bank space was not added until well after the public outcry resulting in ZOS' Official Thread looking for ideas on how to up the value of ESO+. And as Rich Lambert said on the last ESO Live (in the chat box) they're always looking for ways to improve ESO+. Honestly I don't know how you can get more cause and effect than that, though I understand you may not have yourself seen the threads or put the pieces together. It's easy to compartmentalize on the forums and only see a little piece of what's going on.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Doesn't ESO+ have enough benefits as is?

I mean, seriously.
Unlimited crafting storage
Double Bank and housing space
Crowns every month
Dyable Outfits
Free access to non-chapter DLC

When does it stop being a bonus and start becoming an entitlement badge?

Did you say "Free", please explain how paying a fee equates to free. At the end of the day we get the craft bag and double inventory slots. The crowns and the access to DLC are on par with the cost. At this point those "Free" crowns and DLC's have cost me $360.00. I am happy to pay, I enjoy the game, but that is far from "Free".

So 1500 crown AND access to the DLC without using said crowns is on par with the ~2k crowns a non subscribe would have to buy to get the same DLC? What about the 6 FREE crown crates ZOS just gave out to ESO+ members not even a week ago?

Your definition of par is clearly different than mine.

Just subscribe and get all that free stuff

I'm already subscribed and feel the current bonuses for it are well enough as is but people will still feel entitled to every new thing that gets added to the game in 1 way or another.

@Silver_Strider

The consensus last year when they changed the ESO+ benefits was that more systems were needed to make up for the value lost. You might have been find with it, but the community reaction was overwhelmingly negative, to the point that ZOS made a stickied thread in the Crown Store subforum asking for input about how to add value to ESO+. Nobody cares that you're fine with paying more for less, the rest of us expect something to make up for what was lost.

Where's your data to back up this "consensus"?

People on the forums were upset, sure but the forums only show a minority group and without actual physical data to back up your statement, it's little more than your opinion.

I deal with facts and figures and unless ZOS releases their Sub number before and after that announcement, we have neither of those and every statement to sway the argument based on such is otherwise hearsay.

@Silver_Strider

Looking at sub numbers wouldn't even be beneficial, though, as those change regularly for a variety of reasons. Instead, we can look at qualitative data like the public outcry and resulting adding of value to ESO+. For example, the double bank space was not added until well after the public outcry resulting in ZOS' Official Thread looking for ideas on how to up the value of ESO+. And as Rich Lambert said on the last ESO Live (in the chat box) they're always looking for ways to improve ESO+. Honestly I don't know how you can get more cause and effect than that, though I understand you may not have yourself seen the threads or put the pieces together. It's easy to compartmentalize on the forums and only see a little piece of what's going on.

It's not so much that I haven't seen them but rather that I feel that, currently, ESO+ provides plenty of great incentives that people try to undervalue just to justify asking for more benefits. Sure, when optional subbing was first established ESO+ was a crock with very superficial benefits that had limited use once everything was said and done but as of today, the benefits, at least IMO, are well worth the subscription.

And you're free to feel that way, but losing out on a DLC every year for most of us means needing new systems every year to make up for it. Plus we'd already lost DLC in previous years from stuff like One Tamriel rebranding, which while they were fantastic weren't actually tied to ESO+ at all.

I'm going to chime in again - while I, personally, could live with a gold fee, I'm also one of those players who is in multiple trade guilds and has several million gold in the bank. A new player? Or maybe someone who hasn't focused on Motif collection because it hasn't been all that useful up to now?

I'm going to walk through this as if I were a player without easy access to a trade guild (and by extension gold) who doesn't craft much and thus doesn't have any Motifs learned. My hypothetical self obviously cares about appearances, but prior to this has gotten by with guildie-crafted armor, costumes, and disguises. So very little personal Motif knowledge. But the armor means I have to pay for mats, and the costumes mean I have to spend real money, and the Outfit system looks like it'll be cheaper.

IF my hypothetical self is happy to stick with the base race motifs, plus Daedric, Ancient Elf, Primal, and Barbaric, then my expenses will be minor. The four purples run about 500* gold each, and they're all in book (not page) format, so that's 500 gold for each entire Motif. Then about 150 gold each for the base race Motifs. So (500*4) + (150*8) (remember that you get your character's race's Motif automatically) = 3,200 gold for the lot. If I'm happy with just those, great! I'm probably set for gold.

But say my hypothetical self is not happy with the original game Motifs. I've played for long enough that I find them boring, I've seen them on NPCs too much and I want to look unique, or I'm bothered by the fact that they are by and large painted on. Or maybe I have a movie hero I want to mimic, whose outfit doesn't match any of the base races. Whatever the reason, the base game Motifs won't cut it.

Off the top of my head, the absolute cheapest of the non-original-base-game Motifs is Mercenary, which runs about 500 - but that's per page. Now recall that there are 14 pages in a Motif. So 7,000 gold for the entire thing. Celestial? About 2k per page, so 28,000 for the entire thing. I want something else? Something rarer so I stand out more? Something with light armor that doesn't look exactly like a dress?

There's a Yokudan page sitting in the non-hypothetical bank waiting for the patch to drop. Its light armor variant looks awesome! It MM's at about 20k right now. For one page. Ditto for the Trinimac page. And an Ashlander page that's a little better from the buyer's perspective - about 9k. And Stars help you if you want a character decked out in Bloodforge! 32k for a page there.

Now, IF my hypothetical self just wants to hide an ugly monster set and maybe remove the red from both weapon slots, maybe I'm willing to pay 40k for two pages of Yokudan. And if I only want this one Motif and only have one character I want to Outfit - or I want them all to use the same Motif in the same slots, because all the rest are wearing ugly monster sets too - it would probably be worth my time to spend a few real-life days robbing Daggerfall. (Assuming one character, but with maxed out Trafficker, and only turning in Green or better items = about 14k/day. One could aim higher, but going for all blues and above will bring with it an increase in time spent stealing.) But then my hypothetical self is only getting the very minimal amount of use out of the system; even counting the dye I'm putting on my weapons I'm using less than half the slots. I might as well be using a costume or disguise in that case; it would be cheaper and more time efficient to put an existing costume on and just dye the weapons. If I actually want to make full use of the outfit system and use every slot?

20k * 14 = 280k for the whole of Yokudan, or 140k if I just buy the armor pieces. There are medium sized houses in that price range. And that's one Motif. Not the most expensive either! And since I'm dropping it on a Motif, it's not going towards potions, or better gear, or repair kits.

Now, you could do like my non-hypothetical self did and collect most of the pages you want personally. But I hope you enjoy the content that drops it in that case; you'll be doing it a lot. The more expensive ones tend to be harder to get; Celestial is cheapish because there are three Trials that drop it, and lots of people run them, so you can get three pages per character per week fairly easy. But most of the Motif-content doesn't have a guaranteed drop. Trinimac doesn't. Ashlander doesn't. And a lot of these are dailies, so you can't just dump a weekend of farming into it and be done. You're going to be spending multiple real-life days doing this even if you have more than one character doing the content. And again, Stars help you if you want the pages from Bloodforge, Mazzatun, Silken Ring, or Falkreath.

And if you're like @Recremen and you already have most of these Motifs, then you already spent 140-280k for your Yokudan or killed a man-eating troll every day for several weeks straight.

And you haven't even paid for your Outfit yet.

Now, as mentioned, there are cases where you can use the system and not break the bank. But it is naive to think that those cases make up the majority of the player base. Character customization is a big part of this game and that means it should be accessible. Dumping extra fees on top of a 140-280k price tag does not make it more accessible, and if it became a little more accessible to people who are consistently pumping ~$15/month into this game, that's a step in the right direction.


*Prices are for PC NA.

I’d pay 2 million gold for the craftbag and it would probably pay for itself within a month. It would take longer for some to get that back, but others would get it back much quicker. Plus members can continue farming and fighting instead of going to the bank. You can go to the bank instead of like logging in to mules. There are too many food mats to auto-loot dungeons. So with plus, I grab anything and everything and eventually an expensive recipe pops up. Without plus, I just don’t loot crates and bags. The direct 10% extra gold is a trinket compared to the actual gold advantage of being a member. I’ll never be against other people getting things and I can’t begin to wrap my head around how rampant that is on this board. So if plus members get this, I’ll be happy for you and enjoy the fact that it will encourage less people to use the free in game costumes. I just want there to be a clear understanding of the gold advantage available to plus members. It’s huge.

There needs to be a barrier that makes us consider cost/benefit when creating an outfit, or everyone and his dog will be wearing one. Then there's little point left in costumes/motifs/crafting/etc. A not-outrageous gold cost is a reasonable way of making us decide between costume, outfit, and crafted armour. I think they pitched the costs at about the right point to achieve that.

I totally agree!

Outfitting pretty much replaces dying armour. Why dye armour when you can go the outfit route?

If Outitting replaces the dye armour situation, then that kinda mutes the whole bonus for ESO+ members.

Make outfitting free for ESO+, now THAT's a good incentive to attract more members!