Why would I want to cancel an animation?

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

I would like animation cancelling to be changed so my friends across the world in Australia and New Zealand can play with me on a competitive level.

U do realise there are Australians in every trial guild that pushes score right. Higher ping doesn't affect your ability to weave packet loss does.

You keep looking to groups that you think are disenfranchised by ani canceling and use them to justify your arguements. This is nothing more then an attempt to plea to people emotions rather then there rational sence.

The biggest reason why some don't want to remove ani cacelling is due to how the current combat mechanics are built around it in this game. Everything is fast past and damage can come in an instant. Without ani cancelling it would have to be made slower. I'm sure your like great awesome. But with that combat style there is only a system that caters to slower players and that's pretty much it. As it stand now only a few trials would be to hard for some. Everything is slow enough on normal mode that anyone that can play this game should be able to manage through.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

@Knowledge I also don't think you understand what animation cancelling is. Seems you ignore everyone telling you attack weaving isn't ani canceling. Is this post targeted at pvping pve or both? If pve anicelling doesn't help very much at all. If PvP well I can understand but a person with a finished ability to react would still have that even after the removal. Do you suppose we should tailor the game to absolutely slowest possible person that's alive? Give everyone 10 or 15 seconds to react so ppl with cognitive disorders can play equally? There are games for slower ppl btw and some for faster this game has blend of both and I like it's combat system currently.

rustic_potato · March 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I would like animation cancelling to be changed so my friends across the world in Australia and New Zealand can play with me on a competitive level.

You don't seem like you play on a competitive level, so I wouldn't worry about that if I were you.

Also, I'd be more concerned what high latency does to your survivability rather than your DPS. Not being able to get out of red and such. No animation cancel removal will do anything about that.

How does someone "seem" to play on a competitive level?

If you play on a competitive level you wouldn't have made such a statement. I have friends playing from the oceanic regions and they are among the top tier PVP and PVE players in this game. As people have pointed out repeatedly AC is something that ZOS endorses and is being done effectively even by people from regions with high latency.

Dymence · March 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I would like animation cancelling to be changed so my friends across the world in Australia and New Zealand can play with me on a competitive level.

You don't seem like you play on a competitive level, so I wouldn't worry about that if I were you.

Also, I'd be more concerned what high latency does to your survivability rather than your DPS. Not being able to get out of red and such. No animation cancel removal will do anything about that.

How does someone "seem" to play on a competitive level?

You make too many ludicrous threads and suggestions and know too little about the actual game mechanics to be playing on a competitive level.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

Waiting for @Knowledge to stop cherry picking who they respond to and give a credible and rational arguement that doesn't play to people's sympathy or emotions.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · March 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

It's also not, "because endgame requires it." If you make a change that requires you to re-balance existing content, then that's a thing, and you can certainly do that, and then re-balance content. If ZOS chose, tomorrow, that there was now a hard DPS cap at 10k, that any damage beyond 10k was simply culled from the system, they could do that, and it would require reworking a lot of endgame content to be playable, but it is possible.

You've got to the point: if ZOS fixes animation canceling, they should re-balance a lot of end-game content.
A bug has costs. Fixing this would require huge changes, not only in the code, but also in the design. Plus all the QA this requires (do they have QA anyway?). Not to mention you should explain elite players that now anyone can do vMOL and get those skins because the end-game content can now be done by 12K dps DDs.

I am not a huge pvp fan but hey, if you use AC most people die without even understanding what happened.

Aurielle · March 2018

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

It's also not, "because endgame requires it." If you make a change that requires you to re-balance existing content, then that's a thing, and you can certainly do that, and then re-balance content. If ZOS chose, tomorrow, that there was now a hard DPS cap at 10k, that any damage beyond 10k was simply culled from the system, they could do that, and it would require reworking a lot of endgame content to be playable, but it is possible.

I am not a huge pvp fan but hey, if you use AC most people die without even understanding what happened.

@jaschacasadiob16_ESO

1. Animation cancelling cannot bypass the global skill cool down. You cannot use animation cancelling to fire off multiple skills in one second. Well-timed bursts and procs have nothing to do with animation cancelling. Lag has nothing to do with animation cancelling.

2. Most people who PVP seriously play with buff/debuff icons enabled. Most people who PVP seriously have advanced knowledge of ALL classes and know what skills are being used based on debuff icons and particle effects. They can usually also anticipate what skills will be used based on the current FOTM build.

3.

pieratsos · March 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

Why is this STILL a discussion? Let it go. Animation cancelling is an important part of the game's combat. It's not going anywhere. And it's not the bogeyman people seem to think it is. It doesn't really have any great effect on PVE DPS, and it's important to PVP, but only one of many things that you need to learn to PVP.

It's still a discussion because it's a problem.

The lead combat designer literally acknowledged it as a combat feature and encouraged people to do it. In other words, its not a problem.

Seri · March 2018

Dymence wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

thatlaurachick wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

This would make 99% of players angry. The point of this type of game *IS* to have a high/fast reaction time to be good at it. Players with slower reaction times should look more into single player games or perhaps getting a console CONTROLLER (I use one) either Xbox or PS ones for their PC. If you are already on console then I would suggest single player games.

Also, you could just not animation cancel yourself. That works fine, you just wont be pulling >30k DPS - If you tank or heal you don't really *need* to animation cancel so there's that.

Hi, I have a disability in my hands that makes animation cancelling impossible for me. I have to play with a controller, and the *** gamepad UI on PC means I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. I tank because I don't have to animation cancel, but most trials guilds won't have me becuse:

1. I don't have a DPS with high enough numbers to use when I'm not tanking.

2. I miss some taunts and skills in my rotation because f'n gamepad UI will literally not process the commands. Especially if you go "too fast".

Removing animation cancelling as a gameplay mechanic would make the 10% of uber competitive *** like yourself angry. The rest of us would be fine with it because truly challening gameplay is about mechanics and team communication, not twitch.

All you need to do, is fire off a skill after every light attack as per:

Do this, and you will have top tier DPS. Granted you execute a perfect rotation and keep your DoTs up. You don't even need to barswap cancel. That's merely something to excel above the already top tier.

It sounds more like the game is just too fast paced for you due to your disability. But that doesn't mean it needs to be slowed down to make it all inclusive, as has been said before, games CANNOT be made all inclusive. There will always be people who fall outside the boat, no matter how slow you make the game.

The only thing the removal of animation cancel will really do, is make the game clunky, unresponsive and unreliable. You won't be able to block anymore in the middle of a fight to defend yourself from imminent danger. You won't be able to roll out of red AOE anymore in time because you cannot stop your attacks.

Honestly for giggles, ZOS should remove animation cancelling for a day and I guarantee you that all the people who were so strictly against it will suddenly change their minds. Because the people who are against animation cancelling, actually have no idea of the implications that come with the removal of animation cancelling.

The removal of animation cancelling would make the game fall to ruin within less than a week.

LOVE this post. Only thing I disagree with is the use of your original picture. It's good advice, but weaving and AC are NOT the same thing, and the two are often confused on the forums. We dont need posts like this to know the devs support weaving, but I am glad its there to put the idea into the minds of new players.

If you want to know the devs position on weaving, play NB for an hour. The class is designed around it.

I don't see it as animation cancelling, either. But it has been named as such many times by several people in this thread, so I merely adapted.?

One could argue that you're "cancelling" the animation of the light attack but that's getting picky. Conversely, if you light attack then block, are you weaving light attacks in-between a block, or block-cancelling the light attacks?

Aurielle · March 2018

I tested it out myself. Top parse of 27.5k DPS was completed with light attack weaving and occasional bar swap cancelling. Bottom parse of 22.6k DPS was completed with no light attack weaving or cancelling whatsoever.

When I'm max CP, have BIS gear, and have practiced some more, I know that I will easily crack 30-35k DPS self-buffed. That would translate to 25-30k DPS self-buffed without animation cancelling. Throw in healer buffs and tank debuffs, and we're looking at even better numbers.

Everyone who hates on weaving and animation cancelling because they're only pulling 10-15k DPS without it needs to take a hard look at their rotation and their gear. Stop blaming animation cancelling for the shortcomings of your build or your lack of mastery over your rotation.

Asardes · March 2018

Yep, light attacks on a magicka class with proper gear can only parse ~5K directly, assuming you are using Maelstrom blockade backbar that buffs those. On NB weaving those is far more important since it not doing them will make you miss Merciless Resolve, which is a much higher chunk of your DPS, and also miss the sustain from Siphoning Attacks. So unless you are a magicka NB "animeishun kanseling" will not magically double your DPS

VaranisArano · March 2018

Aurielle wrote: »

I tested it out myself. Top parse of 27.5k DPS was completed with light attack weaving and occasional bar swap cancelling. Bottom parse of 22.6k DPS was completed with no light attack weaving or cancelling whatsoever.

When I'm max CP, have BIS gear, and have practiced some more, I know that I will easily crack 30-35k DPS self-buffed. That would translate to 25-30k DPS self-buffed without animation cancelling. Throw in healer buffs and tank debuffs, and we're looking at even better numbers.

Everyone who hates on weaving and animation cancelling because they're only pulling 10-15k DPS without it needs to take a hard look at their rotation and their gear. Stop blaming animation cancelling for the shortcomings of your build or your lack of mastery over your rotation.

Also, light attack weaving is part of the Level Up Adviser tips, so its got official approval.

Aurielle · March 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Yep, light attacks on a magicka class with proper gear can only parse ~5K directly, assuming you are using Maelstrom blockade backbar that buffs those. On NB weaving those is far more important since it not doing them will make you miss Merciless Resolve, which is a much higher chunk of your DPS, and also miss the sustain from Siphoning Attacks. So unless you are a magicka NB "animeishun kanseling" will not magically double your DPS

I'm not using Maelstrom; just 5 MA/5 Necro/1 Kena. Not an optimal setup by any means, and that's the likeliest reason (besides needing more practice) why I'm not already over 30k on my sorc.

And yeah, weaving is super important on NBs. In fact, the class's combat is currently designed with weaving in mind! But, you know, light attack weaving is an "exploit" and all that jazz...

enzoisadog · March 2018

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

Animation canceling is an unnecessary impediment to those who play with 250ms+ latencies, such as p. much anyone in Oceania.

It really is the responsibility of the developers of an MMO to make as sure as is reasonable that skill really is the limiting factor and not things entirely outside of players' control, like what country they live in.

It's one thing to say "hey, if you've got the skills, you can eke out a couple thousand more dps." It's another to say "oh, and also, if you live in Australia, you're screwed."

Enzo lives in Brazil and he can animation cancel better than me

I try really hard lol.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2018

Aurielle wrote: »

I tested it out myself. Top parse of 27.5k DPS was completed with light attack weaving and occasional bar swap cancelling. Bottom parse of 22.6k DPS was completed with no light attack weaving or cancelling whatsoever.

When I'm max CP, have BIS gear, and have practiced some more, I know that I will easily crack 30-35k DPS self-buffed. That would translate to 25-30k DPS self-buffed without animation cancelling. Throw in healer buffs and tank debuffs, and we're looking at even better numbers.

Everyone who hates on weaving and animation cancelling because they're only pulling 10-15k DPS without it needs to take a hard look at their rotation and their gear. Stop blaming animation cancelling for the shortcomings of your build or your lack of mastery over your rotation.

Shame you didnt post your light attack damage. Because the difference in DPS attributable to annimation canceling in that test is 27.5-22.6-LA damage. Weaving is NOT Annimation canceling, its simply a L2P issue, so you need to back that out of the formula as well.

I still agree with your conclusion of course.

Merlin13KAGL · March 2018

Seri wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

thatlaurachick wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

This would make 99% of players angry. The point of this type of game *IS* to have a high/fast reaction time to be good at it. Players with slower reaction times should look more into single player games or perhaps getting a console CONTROLLER (I use one) either Xbox or PS ones for their PC. If you are already on console then I would suggest single player games.

Also, you could just not animation cancel yourself. That works fine, you just wont be pulling >30k DPS - If you tank or heal you don't really *need* to animation cancel so there's that.

Hi, I have a disability in my hands that makes animation cancelling impossible for me. I have to play with a controller, and the *** gamepad UI on PC means I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. I tank because I don't have to animation cancel, but most trials guilds won't have me becuse:

1. I don't have a DPS with high enough numbers to use when I'm not tanking.

2. I miss some taunts and skills in my rotation because f'n gamepad UI will literally not process the commands. Especially if you go "too fast".

Removing animation cancelling as a gameplay mechanic would make the 10% of uber competitive *** like yourself angry. The rest of us would be fine with it because truly challening gameplay is about mechanics and team communication, not twitch.

All you need to do, is fire off a skill after every light attack as per:

Do this, and you will have top tier DPS. Granted you execute a perfect rotation and keep your DoTs up. You don't even need to barswap cancel. That's merely something to excel above the already top tier.

It sounds more like the game is just too fast paced for you due to your disability. But that doesn't mean it needs to be slowed down to make it all inclusive, as has been said before, games CANNOT be made all inclusive. There will always be people who fall outside the boat, no matter how slow you make the game.

The only thing the removal of animation cancel will really do, is make the game clunky, unresponsive and unreliable. You won't be able to block anymore in the middle of a fight to defend yourself from imminent danger. You won't be able to roll out of red AOE anymore in time because you cannot stop your attacks.

Honestly for giggles, ZOS should remove animation cancelling for a day and I guarantee you that all the people who were so strictly against it will suddenly change their minds. Because the people who are against animation cancelling, actually have no idea of the implications that come with the removal of animation cancelling.

The removal of animation cancelling would make the game fall to ruin within less than a week.

LOVE this post. Only thing I disagree with is the use of your original picture. It's good advice, but weaving and AC are NOT the same thing, and the two are often confused on the forums. We dont need posts like this to know the devs support weaving, but I am glad its there to put the idea into the minds of new players.

If you want to know the devs position on weaving, play NB for an hour. The class is designed around it.

I don't see it as animation cancelling, either. But it has been named as such many times by several people in this thread, so I merely adapted.?

One could argue that you're "cancelling" the animation of the light attack but that's getting picky. Conversely, if you light attack then block, are you weaving light attacks in-between a block, or block-cancelling the light attacks?

Except you're really not, because the projectile has already fired off at that point. You're simply cancelling the after animation - the return to neutral position, if you will.

If you cancel prior to the projectile firing, guess what? You fully cancel the light attack. This is a common mistake when people try to go too fast when learning a rotation.

Initially the realizing there is a GCD is far less intuitive than AC ever will be.

Aurielle · March 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I tested it out myself. Top parse of 27.5k DPS was completed with light attack weaving and occasional bar swap cancelling. Bottom parse of 22.6k DPS was completed with no light attack weaving or cancelling whatsoever.

When I'm max CP, have BIS gear, and have practiced some more, I know that I will easily crack 30-35k DPS self-buffed. That would translate to 25-30k DPS self-buffed without animation cancelling. Throw in healer buffs and tank debuffs, and we're looking at even better numbers.

Everyone who hates on weaving and animation cancelling because they're only pulling 10-15k DPS without it needs to take a hard look at their rotation and their gear. Stop blaming animation cancelling for the shortcomings of your build or your lack of mastery over your rotation.

Shame you didnt post your light attack damage. Because the difference in DPS attributable to annimation canceling in that test is 27.5-22.6-LA damage. Weaving is NOT Annimation canceling, its simply a L2P issue, so you need to back that out of the formula as well.

I still agree with your conclusion of course.

Oh, I agree with you @Oreyn_Bearclaw; the problem is that SO many people in these forums think that weaving is animation cancelling -- possibly because you can clip off the end of the light attack's animation if you time it right. These same people also often think that weaving is an exploit (I guess they've never seen the tool tip for Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve...) They lump their criticism of weaving into their criticism of bar swap cancelling and block cancelling. They also are under the misguided impression that most DPS who range from good to elite are bar swap/block cancelling every single skill. I know of a TINY number of people who bar swap cancel every skill (for relatively little DPS gain), and NO ONE who block cancels every skill.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2018

Aurielle wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I tested it out myself. Top parse of 27.5k DPS was completed with light attack weaving and occasional bar swap cancelling. Bottom parse of 22.6k DPS was completed with no light attack weaving or cancelling whatsoever.

When I'm max CP, have BIS gear, and have practiced some more, I know that I will easily crack 30-35k DPS self-buffed. That would translate to 25-30k DPS self-buffed without animation cancelling. Throw in healer buffs and tank debuffs, and we're looking at even better numbers.

Everyone who hates on weaving and animation cancelling because they're only pulling 10-15k DPS without it needs to take a hard look at their rotation and their gear. Stop blaming animation cancelling for the shortcomings of your build or your lack of mastery over your rotation.

Shame you didnt post your light attack damage. Because the difference in DPS attributable to annimation canceling in that test is 27.5-22.6-LA damage. Weaving is NOT Annimation canceling, its simply a L2P issue, so you need to back that out of the formula as well.

I still agree with your conclusion of course.

Oh, I agree with you @Oreyn_Bearclaw; the problem is that SO many people in these forums think that weaving is animation cancelling -- possibly because you can clip off the end of the light attack's animation if you time it right. These same people also often think that weaving is an exploit (I guess they've never seen the tool tip for Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve...) They lump their criticism of weaving into their criticism of bar swap cancelling and block cancelling. They also are under the misguided impression that most DPS who range from good to elite are bar swap/block cancelling every single skill. I know of a TINY number of people who bar swap cancel every skill (for relatively little DPS gain), and NO ONE who block cancels every skill.

Ha! I certainly dont know any good player the block cancels every skill in PVE. And even the swap cancel masters like LZH dont do it on every skill, they just do it on every bar swap, which they certainly do plenty of.

And yeah, I dont remember if I said it in this post or not, but if you removed weaving from the game, it would be the greatest class nerf we have ever seen. The two skills that make mageblade what it is, merciless (damage) and siphoning (sustain) are designed around weaving. Weaving is mentioned in the level up advisor. Weaving does not affect global cooldowns. Weaving is a skill barrier, nothing more. A competitive game needs skill barriers, and weaving certainly isnt going anywhere. Ultimately if weaving is something you cant get passed, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

Take it one step further and lets go full RP fanboy. Would a skilled swordsman not weave in light attacks between is more powerful ones? Removing weaving would break my immersion for sure, and we both know ZOS puts RP above all else.

But again, none of this is actually relevant to this thread because weaving is just not animation canceling when discussed in the context of skill priority and GCD.

Aurielle · March 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I tested it out myself. Top parse of 27.5k DPS was completed with light attack weaving and occasional bar swap cancelling. Bottom parse of 22.6k DPS was completed with no light attack weaving or cancelling whatsoever.

When I'm max CP, have BIS gear, and have practiced some more, I know that I will easily crack 30-35k DPS self-buffed. That would translate to 25-30k DPS self-buffed without animation cancelling. Throw in healer buffs and tank debuffs, and we're looking at even better numbers.

Everyone who hates on weaving and animation cancelling because they're only pulling 10-15k DPS without it needs to take a hard look at their rotation and their gear. Stop blaming animation cancelling for the shortcomings of your build or your lack of mastery over your rotation.

Shame you didnt post your light attack damage. Because the difference in DPS attributable to annimation canceling in that test is 27.5-22.6-LA damage. Weaving is NOT Annimation canceling, its simply a L2P issue, so you need to back that out of the formula as well.

I still agree with your conclusion of course.

Oh, I agree with you @Oreyn_Bearclaw; the problem is that SO many people in these forums think that weaving is animation cancelling -- possibly because you can clip off the end of the light attack's animation if you time it right. These same people also often think that weaving is an exploit (I guess they've never seen the tool tip for Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve...) They lump their criticism of weaving into their criticism of bar swap cancelling and block cancelling. They also are under the misguided impression that most DPS who range from good to elite are bar swap/block cancelling every single skill. I know of a TINY number of people who bar swap cancel every skill (for relatively little DPS gain), and NO ONE who block cancels every skill.

Ha! I certainly dont know any good player the block cancels every skill in PVE. And even the swap cancel masters like LZH dont do it on every skill, they just do it on every bar swap, which they certainly do plenty of.

And yeah, I dont remember if I said it in this post or not, but if you removed weaving from the game, it would be the greatest class nerf we have ever seen. The two skills that make mageblade what it is, merciless (damage) and siphoning (sustain) are designed around weaving. Weaving is mentioned in the level up advisor. Weaving does not affect global cooldowns. Weaving is a skill barrier, nothing more. A competitive game needs skill barriers, and weaving certainly isnt going anywhere. Ultimately if weaving is something you cant get passed, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

Take it one step further and lets go full RP fanboy. Would a skilled swordsman not weave in light attacks between is more powerful ones? Removing weaving would break my immersion for sure, and we both know ZOS puts RP above all else.

But again, none of this is actually relevant to this thread because weaving is just not animation canceling when discussed in the context of skill priority and GCD.

It is really frustrating how weaving always gets lumped into these discussions.

I tried to make a post a while back that explained precisely why light attack weaving exists and why it's not an exploit, and the anti-animation cancelling brigade took over (getting the thread shut down in the process). What people still fail to understand is that light attack weaving is our active equivalent of the passive auto-attacks you see in older MMORPGs.

Eliminating our ability to weave would, like you say, be a huge nerf to magblades. It would also slightly decrease the amount of damage done by every competitive damage dealer. You don't HAVE to cancel the end of your light attack animations to be competitive, but it often happens unintentionally when making sure that you're getting in one light attack per GCD.

When people whine about "animation cancelling button mashing" and how they can't do it with their arthritis and other such nonsense, they're more often than not whining about weaving, because NO ONE is button mashing non-stop to block cancel or bar swap cancel (with the exception of a tiny number of very misinformed players who think that's how you animation cancel).

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2018

Aurielle wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I tested it out myself. Top parse of 27.5k DPS was completed with light attack weaving and occasional bar swap cancelling. Bottom parse of 22.6k DPS was completed with no light attack weaving or cancelling whatsoever.

When I'm max CP, have BIS gear, and have practiced some more, I know that I will easily crack 30-35k DPS self-buffed. That would translate to 25-30k DPS self-buffed without animation cancelling. Throw in healer buffs and tank debuffs, and we're looking at even better numbers.

Everyone who hates on weaving and animation cancelling because they're only pulling 10-15k DPS without it needs to take a hard look at their rotation and their gear. Stop blaming animation cancelling for the shortcomings of your build or your lack of mastery over your rotation.

Shame you didnt post your light attack damage. Because the difference in DPS attributable to annimation canceling in that test is 27.5-22.6-LA damage. Weaving is NOT Annimation canceling, its simply a L2P issue, so you need to back that out of the formula as well.

I still agree with your conclusion of course.

Oh, I agree with you @Oreyn_Bearclaw; the problem is that SO many people in these forums think that weaving is animation cancelling -- possibly because you can clip off the end of the light attack's animation if you time it right. These same people also often think that weaving is an exploit (I guess they've never seen the tool tip for Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve...) They lump their criticism of weaving into their criticism of bar swap cancelling and block cancelling. They also are under the misguided impression that most DPS who range from good to elite are bar swap/block cancelling every single skill. I know of a TINY number of people who bar swap cancel every skill (for relatively little DPS gain), and NO ONE who block cancels every skill.

Ha! I certainly dont know any good player the block cancels every skill in PVE. And even the swap cancel masters like LZH dont do it on every skill, they just do it on every bar swap, which they certainly do plenty of.

And yeah, I dont remember if I said it in this post or not, but if you removed weaving from the game, it would be the greatest class nerf we have ever seen. The two skills that make mageblade what it is, merciless (damage) and siphoning (sustain) are designed around weaving. Weaving is mentioned in the level up advisor. Weaving does not affect global cooldowns. Weaving is a skill barrier, nothing more. A competitive game needs skill barriers, and weaving certainly isnt going anywhere. Ultimately if weaving is something you cant get passed, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

Take it one step further and lets go full RP fanboy. Would a skilled swordsman not weave in light attacks between is more powerful ones? Removing weaving would break my immersion for sure, and we both know ZOS puts RP above all else.

But again, none of this is actually relevant to this thread because weaving is just not animation canceling when discussed in the context of skill priority and GCD.

It is really frustrating how weaving always gets lumped into these discussions. I tried to make a post a while back that explained precisely why light attack weaving exists and why it's not an exploit, and the anti-animation cancelling brigade took over (getting the thread shut down in the process). What people still fail to understand is that light attack weaving is our active equivalent of the passive auto-attacks you see in older MMORPGs.

Eliminating our ability to weave would, like you say, be a huge nerf to magblades. It would also slightly decrease the amount of damage done by every competitive damage dealer. You don't HAVE to cancel the end of your light attack animations to be competitive, but it often happens unintentionally when making sure that you're getting in one light attack per GCD.

When people whine about "animation cancelling button mashing" and how they can't do it with their arthritis and other such nonsense, they're more often than not whining about weaving, because NO ONE is button mashing non-stop to block cancel or bar swap cancel (with the exception of a tiny number of very misinformed players who think that's how you animation cancel).

Never really thought about that, but it's pretty spot on.

Aurielle · March 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I tested it out myself. Top parse of 27.5k DPS was completed with light attack weaving and occasional bar swap cancelling. Bottom parse of 22.6k DPS was completed with no light attack weaving or cancelling whatsoever.

When I'm max CP, have BIS gear, and have practiced some more, I know that I will easily crack 30-35k DPS self-buffed. That would translate to 25-30k DPS self-buffed without animation cancelling. Throw in healer buffs and tank debuffs, and we're looking at even better numbers.

Everyone who hates on weaving and animation cancelling because they're only pulling 10-15k DPS without it needs to take a hard look at their rotation and their gear. Stop blaming animation cancelling for the shortcomings of your build or your lack of mastery over your rotation.

Shame you didnt post your light attack damage. Because the difference in DPS attributable to annimation canceling in that test is 27.5-22.6-LA damage. Weaving is NOT Annimation canceling, its simply a L2P issue, so you need to back that out of the formula as well.

I still agree with your conclusion of course.

Oh, I agree with you @Oreyn_Bearclaw; the problem is that SO many people in these forums think that weaving is animation cancelling -- possibly because you can clip off the end of the light attack's animation if you time it right. These same people also often think that weaving is an exploit (I guess they've never seen the tool tip for Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve...) They lump their criticism of weaving into their criticism of bar swap cancelling and block cancelling. They also are under the misguided impression that most DPS who range from good to elite are bar swap/block cancelling every single skill. I know of a TINY number of people who bar swap cancel every skill (for relatively little DPS gain), and NO ONE who block cancels every skill.

Ha! I certainly dont know any good player the block cancels every skill in PVE. And even the swap cancel masters like LZH dont do it on every skill, they just do it on every bar swap, which they certainly do plenty of.

And yeah, I dont remember if I said it in this post or not, but if you removed weaving from the game, it would be the greatest class nerf we have ever seen. The two skills that make mageblade what it is, merciless (damage) and siphoning (sustain) are designed around weaving. Weaving is mentioned in the level up advisor. Weaving does not affect global cooldowns. Weaving is a skill barrier, nothing more. A competitive game needs skill barriers, and weaving certainly isnt going anywhere. Ultimately if weaving is something you cant get passed, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

Take it one step further and lets go full RP fanboy. Would a skilled swordsman not weave in light attacks between is more powerful ones? Removing weaving would break my immersion for sure, and we both know ZOS puts RP above all else.

But again, none of this is actually relevant to this thread because weaving is just not animation canceling when discussed in the context of skill priority and GCD.

It is really frustrating how weaving always gets lumped into these discussions. I tried to make a post a while back that explained precisely why light attack weaving exists and why it's not an exploit, and the anti-animation cancelling brigade took over (getting the thread shut down in the process). What people still fail to understand is that light attack weaving is our active equivalent of the passive auto-attacks you see in older MMORPGs.

Eliminating our ability to weave would, like you say, be a huge nerf to magblades. It would also slightly decrease the amount of damage done by every competitive damage dealer. You don't HAVE to cancel the end of your light attack animations to be competitive, but it often happens unintentionally when making sure that you're getting in one light attack per GCD.

When people whine about "animation cancelling button mashing" and how they can't do it with their arthritis and other such nonsense, they're more often than not whining about weaving, because NO ONE is button mashing non-stop to block cancel or bar swap cancel (with the exception of a tiny number of very misinformed players who think that's how you animation cancel).

Never really thought about that, but it's pretty spot on.

Yup! One of the original combat design goals was specifically to move away from passive auto-attacks. See Brian Wheeler's quote in this old article: https://segmentnext.com/2013/12/23/many-details-elder-scrolls-online-pvp-revealed-developer/

For anyone else who's not familiar with old school MMOs: traditional passive auto attacks and the active light attacks in ESO are functionally the same. They both provide small amounts of melee or ranged damage that are different from class skills. In old school MMOs, auto attacks are automatically woven into each GCD and add a small amount of damage overall. They provide the visual image of your character swinging at an enemy. Here, we weave those small attacks in ourselves, because this is an active combat MMORPG. If weaving is too hard for you, World of Warcraft might be better suited to you.

DemonDruaga · March 2018

The slower players do need AC even more, since they are slower they need to dodge or block to defend themself when the red is all over them(slow players aren't expected to get out in time right) soo they need that block or dodge roll to cancel out their attack animation, or they will just die looking at their toon stuck in some fancy animation.
Almost everybody is taking advantage of this system, even the ultra casual while 1v1 a mudcrab.
And if it is too much to click with one hand a keyboard key and with the other hand in the same second on the mouse, then maybe real life fishing is a better hobby.
This isn't good old mine sweeper here..

Yamenstein · March 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I'm not really sure I understand why someone would want to cancel an animation that they started. Why start the animation if you have no intention of finishing said animation? I personally think animation cancelling should be removed from the game to aid players with a slower reaction time making the game more accessible.

I can guarantee that you already do it. When the big nasty thing paints a big red telegraph of death on the ground or charges up a big attack that you have to either block or dodge in the middle of your own attack, you have used animation canceling.

The difference between you and others, is they have figured out how to use that more consistently and chain more attacks together even faster to boost their dps.

And that makes thread number 2 on this topic in the last 10 minutes...

There's other ways to fix this problem such as creating a greater delay on the telegraph or simply making your attack animation an invulnerability frame so that you don't die while in the animation. Following the ending of it you may then block or roll away.

This is the worst suggestion. Stop acting like you have so much knowledge because making someone immune to damage when an animation is occurring would make the game worse than right now with the animation cancelling.

Biro123 · March 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

thatlaurachick wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

This would make 99% of players angry. The point of this type of game *IS* to have a high/fast reaction time to be good at it. Players with slower reaction times should look more into single player games or perhaps getting a console CONTROLLER (I use one) either Xbox or PS ones for their PC. If you are already on console then I would suggest single player games.

Also, you could just not animation cancel yourself. That works fine, you just wont be pulling >30k DPS - If you tank or heal you don't really *need* to animation cancel so there's that.

Hi, I have a disability in my hands that makes animation cancelling impossible for me. I have to play with a controller, and the *** gamepad UI on PC means I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. I tank because I don't have to animation cancel, but most trials guilds won't have me becuse:

1. I don't have a DPS with high enough numbers to use when I'm not tanking.

2. I miss some taunts and skills in my rotation because f'n gamepad UI will literally not process the commands. Especially if you go "too fast".

Removing animation cancelling as a gameplay mechanic would make the 10% of uber competitive *** like yourself angry. The rest of us would be fine with it because truly challening gameplay is about mechanics and team communication, not twitch.

All you need to do, is fire off a skill after every light attack as per:

Do this, and you will have top tier DPS. Granted you execute a perfect rotation and keep your DoTs up. You don't even need to barswap cancel. That's merely something to excel above the already top tier.

It sounds more like the game is just too fast paced for you due to your disability. But that doesn't mean it needs to be slowed down to make it all inclusive, as has been said before, games CANNOT be made all inclusive. There will always be people who fall outside the boat, no matter how slow you make the game.

The only thing the removal of animation cancel will really do, is make the game clunky, unresponsive and unreliable. You won't be able to block anymore in the middle of a fight to defend yourself from imminent danger. You won't be able to roll out of red AOE anymore in time because you cannot stop your attacks.

Honestly for giggles, ZOS should remove animation cancelling for a day and I guarantee you that all the people who were so strictly against it will suddenly change their minds. Because the people who are against animation cancelling, actually have no idea of the implications that come with the removal of animation cancelling.

The removal of animation cancelling would make the game fall to ruin within less than a week.

LOVE this post. Only thing I disagree with is the use of your original picture. It's good advice, but weaving and AC are NOT the same thing, and the two are often confused on the forums. We dont need posts like this to know the devs support weaving, but I am glad its there to put the idea into the minds of new players.

If you want to know the devs position on weaving, play NB for an hour. The class is designed around it.

I don't see it as animation cancelling, either. But it has been named as such many times by several people in this thread, so I merely adapted.?

One could argue that you're "cancelling" the animation of the light attack but that's getting picky. Conversely, if you light attack then block, are you weaving light attacks in-between a block, or block-cancelling the light attacks?

Except you're really not, because the projectile has already fired off at that point. You're simply cancelling the after animation - the return to neutral position, if you will.

If you cancel prior to the projectile firing, guess what? You fully cancel the light attack. This is a common mistake when people try to go too fast when learning a rotation.

Initially the realizing there is a GCD is far less intuitive than AC ever will be.

But that's exactly what animation-cancelling is!

When you block or swap cancel, you also do it after the ability fires and only cancel the 'after animation' as you call it.

Weaving is a type of animals cancelling (and yes it needs to be in game along with the other types)

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

Op is a huge troll let this nonsence post die please.

Prospero_ESO · March 2018

Why is pretty simple. The more interesting question is, should it be possible and should the dps increase i get from it be mandatory to clear some of the content. For me animation cancelling is a borderline exploit, a core combat mechanic is intentionally skipped to gain a benefit. In PvE this is somewhat tolerable but in PvP counterplay is made impossible for certain things if you can´t see the animation of the skill. One reason why PvP in this game was never and will never be competitive. This is incredible bad and short sighted combat design on ZOS end. Each animation should serve a purpose and if the purpose is not there, then there should'nt be any nor a need to cancel it.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

Prospero_ESO wrote: »

Why is pretty simple. The more interesting question is, should it be possible and should the dps increase i get from it be mandatory to clear some of the content. For me animation cancelling is a borderline exploit, a core combat mechanic is intentionally skipped to gain a benefit. In PvE this is somewhat tolerable but in PvP counterplay is made impossible for certain things if you can´t see the animation of the skill. One reason why PvP in this game was never and will never be competitive. This is incredible bad and short sighted combat design on ZOS end. Each animation should serve a purpose and if the purpose is not there, then there should'nt be any nor a need to cancel it.

1 it's not up to you it's zosand they say it's working as intended and two the purpose of the skill still exists beyond it's animationbeing cancelled. Third you clearly have a poor understanding of what ani cancelingis and shouldn't compell any to make changes based on ignorance. And lastly the op is a huge troll and you fell right for it.

Merlin13KAGL · March 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

thatlaurachick wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

This would make 99% of players angry. The point of this type of game *IS* to have a high/fast reaction time to be good at it. Players with slower reaction times should look more into single player games or perhaps getting a console CONTROLLER (I use one) either Xbox or PS ones for their PC. If you are already on console then I would suggest single player games.

Also, you could just not animation cancel yourself. That works fine, you just wont be pulling >30k DPS - If you tank or heal you don't really *need* to animation cancel so there's that.

Hi, I have a disability in my hands that makes animation cancelling impossible for me. I have to play with a controller, and the *** gamepad UI on PC means I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. I tank because I don't have to animation cancel, but most trials guilds won't have me becuse:

1. I don't have a DPS with high enough numbers to use when I'm not tanking.

2. I miss some taunts and skills in my rotation because f'n gamepad UI will literally not process the commands. Especially if you go "too fast".

Removing animation cancelling as a gameplay mechanic would make the 10% of uber competitive *** like yourself angry. The rest of us would be fine with it because truly challening gameplay is about mechanics and team communication, not twitch.

All you need to do, is fire off a skill after every light attack as per:

Do this, and you will have top tier DPS. Granted you execute a perfect rotation and keep your DoTs up. You don't even need to barswap cancel. That's merely something to excel above the already top tier.

It sounds more like the game is just too fast paced for you due to your disability. But that doesn't mean it needs to be slowed down to make it all inclusive, as has been said before, games CANNOT be made all inclusive. There will always be people who fall outside the boat, no matter how slow you make the game.

The only thing the removal of animation cancel will really do, is make the game clunky, unresponsive and unreliable. You won't be able to block anymore in the middle of a fight to defend yourself from imminent danger. You won't be able to roll out of red AOE anymore in time because you cannot stop your attacks.

Honestly for giggles, ZOS should remove animation cancelling for a day and I guarantee you that all the people who were so strictly against it will suddenly change their minds. Because the people who are against animation cancelling, actually have no idea of the implications that come with the removal of animation cancelling.

The removal of animation cancelling would make the game fall to ruin within less than a week.

LOVE this post. Only thing I disagree with is the use of your original picture. It's good advice, but weaving and AC are NOT the same thing, and the two are often confused on the forums. We dont need posts like this to know the devs support weaving, but I am glad its there to put the idea into the minds of new players.

If you want to know the devs position on weaving, play NB for an hour. The class is designed around it.

I don't see it as animation cancelling, either. But it has been named as such many times by several people in this thread, so I merely adapted.?

One could argue that you're "cancelling" the animation of the light attack but that's getting picky. Conversely, if you light attack then block, are you weaving light attacks in-between a block, or block-cancelling the light attacks?

Except you're really not, because the projectile has already fired off at that point. You're simply cancelling the after animation - the return to neutral position, if you will.

If you cancel prior to the projectile firing, guess what? You fully cancel the light attack. This is a common mistake when people try to go too fast when learning a rotation.

Initially the realizing there is a GCD is far less intuitive than AC ever will be.

But that's exactly what animation-cancelling is!

When you block or swap cancel, you also do it after the ability fires and only cancel the 'after animation' as you call it.

Weaving is a type of animals cancelling (and yes it needs to be in game along with the other types)

Two things: One, you can still weave without AC, your rotation just won't be as fast or as fluid.

Two, my statement was more in reference to some of the assumptions that the entire animation gets cancelled ("I can't see what someone is doing") when it's not true in this case. If you cancel the animation too early, you, in fact, cancel the light attack. Most other skills can at least be swap cancelled almost in their entirety.

I'm far from anti-AC. I just wish they'd add a proper in game tutorial for those still unfamiliar.

JinMori · March 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

Why is this STILL a discussion? Let it go. Animation cancelling is an important part of the game's combat. It's not going anywhere. And it's not the bogeyman people seem to think it is. It doesn't really have any great effect on PVE DPS, and it's important to PVP, but only one of many things that you need to learn to PVP.

It's still a discussion because it's a problem.

It's a problem for you because you get destroyed in pvp or pve content i bet, because you don't wanna put the time and small effort to learn ac, so instead you wanna ruin the fun of everyone else, i bet that most of these people who ask for the removal of ac, don't even understand the complications of doing so, first off, by removing ac, you will be forced to stand still in dangerous stuff, because you can no longer block or dodge during an animation, meaning that reaction will be completely removed from the game, and pvp will become a race to who gets the first hit, second it will make the combat very stale and boring, third it cannot be removed, because it would require a complete rework of the combat system, meaning that they will not do it, and why should they?

For the slower reaction time player, well, sorry for you, but honestly that seems more like and excuse then anything else, most people have a reaction time of about 0.25 sec, it's not that common to find people with reaction times of 0.2, and anyway, it can be trained, you can improve your reaction time, all i see are lots of excuses to not put 1 hour of effort to learn the basics of ac, any anyway after you learned the basics, you can just improve on it as you play, so wtf is the problem? Jesus Christ.

And for the guys who have low ping, well sorry for you, but when you bought this game, you knew, you knew that you would be at a disadvantage because you are far from the servers or you have bad internet, so take some responsibility for your actions, instead you could ask for a server closer to you.

Vahrokh · March 2018

JinMori wrote: »

And for the guys who have low ping, well sorry for you, but when you bought this game, you knew, you knew that you would be at a disadvantage because you are far from the servers or you have bad internet, so take some responsibility for your actions, instead you could ask for a server closer to you.

I am going to demand ZOS to install servers on my small island!