Why would I want to cancel an animation?

ZOS_Ragnar

We have once again had to remove a several posts that were nonconstructive and inappropriate. You will not always agree with the opinions you encounter on the forums, and that’s okay. It’s perfectly acceptable to disagree, but please do not put other people down for their opinions, ideas, or suggestions. In most discussions, there is no right or wrong, just different angles, opinions, and interests. Please keep future posts civil.

The_Brosteen

ZOS_RyanM wrote: »

We have once again had to remove a several posts that were nonconstructive and inappropriate. You will not always agree with the opinions you encounter on the forums, and that’s okay. It’s perfectly acceptable to disagree, but please do not put other people down for their opinions, ideas, or suggestions. In most discussions, there is no right or wrong, just different angles, opinions, and interests. Please keep future posts civil.

Well there is a pretty definitive right and wrong in this conversation: Animation canceling, orignally being unintended, is NOT an exploit.

Can we close the thread now?

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

idk wrote: »

I do no think anyone has said it is a feature. Heck, not even sure what you mean by that.
It is, and has been, a completely acceptable part of the game and has been blessed by Zos.
If you are gong to make the wild claim that it is because Zos cannot "fix" it then please back it up since all I have seen is empty words trying to make that claim.

Maybe you did not understand.
Let me try to rephrase it: all the end game, including what is being developed as we speak, is doable if, and only if the group do cancel animations. But again, the game does not tell you at all what animation canceling is or how to do it.

Why you need to cancel the animation has been explained over and over.
Why ZOS can't remove it is plain simple: they can't. Simply because the end game requires it. Of course they accept it and don't ban people using it. They simply can't.

Now it would be nice to have some comments from ZOS. They are pretty aware of this thread as you can see from the cleaning up and icon. But still, silence.

To wrap it all up: it's ridiculous that the end game requires you to master something that is not described/explained at all.

starkerealm

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Why ZOS can't remove it is plain simple: they can't. Simply because the end game requires it.

That's not completely accurate. They could, but have chosen not to. This isn't some technical impossibility, it's simply a function of how action priorities are processed. As is, there are a few animations you can't cancel out of. So, no, it's not that they're mystically incapable, they could attach a hard CC to every animation in the game if they wanted to.

It's also not, "because endgame requires it." If you make a change that requires you to re-balance existing content, then that's a thing, and you can certainly do that, and then re-balance content. If ZOS chose, tomorrow, that there was now a hard DPS cap at 10k, that any damage beyond 10k was simply culled from the system, they could do that, and it would require reworking a lot of endgame content to be playable, but it is possible.

It is because without animation canceling, combat would feel unresponsive. There's be a long lag between when you tried to do a thing, and when it actually happened, because you were still in a previous animation. Ever tried to swing a sword as fast as you can click? Like that, but with EVERYTHING. Press 2, wait for your light attack to end, then use the ability on 2 half a second later.

Using uppercut, and need to block? Yeah, we'll get around to that, eventual... oh, you're dead, maybe you should have psychically known you'd need to block before you started an animation you couldn't cancel out of.

So, no. Animation canceling isn't going anywhere because it would make the experience feel worse in the moment. If you want to play a game without animation canceling, take a look at Secret World Legends, and realize just how laggy the skill usage in that game feels.

Royaji

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

all the end game, including what is being developed as we speak, is doable if, and only if the group do cancel animations.

Wrong. You can comfotably pull 25-30k DPS without any animation cancelling. It's enough to complete all content. Animation cancelling is not a magical wand that will increase your DPS from 10k to 40k.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

But again, the game does not tell you at all what animation canceling is or how to do it.

Wrong again.

Aurielle wrote: »

Are we done here?

ssorgatem

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do no think anyone has said it is a feature. Heck, not even sure what you mean by that.
It is, and has been, a completely acceptable part of the game and has been blessed by Zos.
If you are gong to make the wild claim that it is because Zos cannot "fix" it then please back it up since all I have seen is empty words trying to make that claim.

Maybe you did not understand.
Let me try to rephrase it: all the end game, including what is being developed as we speak, is doable if, and only if the group do cancel animations. But again, the game does not tell you at all what animation canceling is or how to do it.

Why you need to cancel the animation has been explained over and over.
Why ZOS can't remove it is plain simple: they can't. Simply because the end game requires it. Of course they accept it and don't ban people using it. They simply can't.

Now it would be nice to have some comments from ZOS. They are pretty aware of this thread as you can see from the cleaning up and icon. But still, silence.

To wrap it all up: it's ridiculous that the end game requires you to master something that is not described/explained at all.

It's a MMO.
That complain could make sense if it were a single player game... but that's not the case.
Even if you never go do research outside the game, there are tons of experienced players to ask.

You can either figure it out for yourself with trial and error... possibly with ots of "trial" and lots of "error"... or ask your friends/guildmates/etc.

Where do you think those who can animation cancel properly got that from?

The same thing goes for dungeon/boss mechanics and such.

Sabbathius

I'm one of those people that have a problem with animation canceling as a concept.

First, why take the time to make animations, only to then make it REQUIRED (if you want to be best of the best on leaderboards) for us to cancel and never see them? It's completely illogical and asinine.

Second, the way combat works in this game is with visual clues. You don't get a message "X is casting Fireball at you". You see him casting, you see the fireball. But if he animation cancels, you just see a fireball. Which completely destroys the whole action->reaction combat system. If I can't see the ability being cast, how am I to react to it? Granted, eventually you learn and predict with high degree of accuracy what's going to happen, and what the combo will be, BUT that's not action-packed, reactive gameplay the game is supposed to have. It makes combat too prescriptive. The corollary of this is also that we're seeing "permablock problem". Which makes total sense, actually. If you don't see animations of what's coming, because they're being canceled, then wholesale blocking is a perfectly reasonable counter to that.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, IT LOOKS RIDICULOUS! Yes. Have you tried selling this game by showing someone the gameplay on the high end, with heavy animation canceling? For someone not in the know it looks like the player character is having a massive stroke. He's just stuttering and jerking and flames and whatnot is coming out of everywhere, and suddenly there's something on the ground but you didn't see it appear, etc., etc. For a game in 2018 (and released in '14) this is completely and utterly ridiculous. It LOOKS CHEAP and sloppy. And perception is everything in advertising. Look at other MMOs, with their beautiful, smooth animations, and look at your cream of the crop ESO animation canceler. ESO looks absolutely broken and low budget, it's not a good selling point. Now, actually having spent time in ESO, I can appreciate the skill (and low ping!) that this kind of gameplay requires. But for an average player, especially one contemplating ESO as a possible time-waster? That could be a killer. Why are you shooting YOURSELVES in the foot, ZOS? Do you not like money? I know that's not true, I've seen the 5,000 Crown motif in the store, and 12,500 crown house.

What I would like to see is something akin to what other MMOs do. The moment you activate an ability, the resource is expended (magicka, stamina or health). Then comes the animation. If you wish to cancel it, you should be able to. But you get no resource back, and no effect has taken place yet. It's only when the animation finishes, and the effect goes off, that you get the benefit (buff, shield, damage, heal, etc.) This is how it works in VAST majority of games, and it works really, really well. ESO's system is just absolutely nonsensical by comparison. This would also bring action->reaction and thought into the game, instead of just seeing which hairless ape can hammer out the combo fastest with lowest ping.

Also, in case it's not clear, this would solve a LOT of issues the game has. Not the least of which is PvE balance. If you balance the game around animation cancelers, then top tier content will be too difficult for average players, who may lack the time or even the physical capacity (we're all getting older and slower every day) or even just latency due to geographic location to animation cancel like that. And you risk alienating them and losing their money. If you balance it for average players, then animation cancelers will blow through that content in a day and leave bored, which is also something you don't want. BUT if you bring animation canceling to a sensible level, balancing will get a heck of a lot easier. Yes, this will bring the skill floor and ceiling a little closer together. But there's still ample room for skill with positioning, rotation correctness, direct counters (blocks, absorbs, dodges, etc). There's plenty you can capitalize on to keep skill a very meaningful factor in gameplay. Just not key-spamming like a spastic monkey. It's clearly not working. And this isn't just me, look at how often this subject comes up, year after year after year after year. Seriously, have we gone just a week, in the past 4 years, without people complaining about animation canceling? Why do you think that is?

Now, I understand that the developers may lack the chops to fix the issue. Given how many technical problems the game has, and how long they persist, it is my firm belief that they are either grossly undermanned, or not very good at what they do. But both of these are fixable, by hiring people who are capable, on technical level, of fixing this nonsense in a reasonable time frame. And I wish you'd do it sooner rather than later, because honestly that's one of the more embarrassing parts of the game, alongside with bugs and missing basic features (like the ability to batch-craft without having to look for an addon, IF your platform even supports them). The thing keeping this game from being truly great is you guys. Do not do what EVE Online developers did, and just slowly slide into obscurity because you're too chicken to tackle the issues with the core game. Be bold. Fix your stuff. The game will be better for it.

And look, we can be reasonable, you don't have to do a Full Monty. You can just take all the existing animations, speed them up, and make them impossible to cancel out. Yes, the combat will feel a teensy tiny bit unresponsive at first, compared to what we have now. But the visuals will improve immensely (no more spazzing out) and lag will be a lot less of an issue because fraction-of-a-second cancels won't be needed any more, if every ability runs on 700-800ms animations. You'll know exactly how much damage abilities do, without having to deal with the gigantic fork between what non-canceler gets and what canceler gets with the same abilities, and have to balance accordingly. Could be best of both worlds, and shouldn't be insanely hard to do even for your team. Of course you can't sell this in the crown store for 12,500 crowns, but think of it as an investment in game's future.

The_Brosteen

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

To wrap it all up: it's ridiculous that the end game requires you to master something that is not described/explained at all.

You could use that arguement about alot of things. Like dungeon mechanics. Or really any mechanics in general. Or if you get killed by another class you're unfamiliar with in pvp. Or what traits are best for pve/pvp.

Theres alot of stuff that's not explained at all by the game itself. Animation canceling is just one of many. It blows my mind that people still have problems with that.

It really is a "get good" "learn to play" issue. Not in a derogatory sense but legitimately, learn how to do it and you will be able to get good at it.

starkerealm

The_Brosteen wrote: »

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

To wrap it all up: it's ridiculous that the end game requires you to master something that is not described/explained at all.

You could use that arguement about alot of things. Like dungeon mechanics. Or really any mechanics in general. Or if you get killed by another class you're unfamiliar with in pvp. Or what traits are best for pve/pvp.

Theres alot of stuff that's not explained at all by the game itself. Animation canceling is just one of many. It blows my mind that people still have problems with that.

It really is a "get good" "learn to play" issue. Not in a derogatory sense but legitimately, learn how to do it and you will be able to get good at it.

So, what you're saying is, "this just became a nerf sorcs thread."

LadyNalcarya

Sabbathius wrote: »

I'm one of those people that have a problem with animation canceling as a concept.

First, why take the time to make animations, only to then make it REQUIRED (if you want to be best of the best on leaderboards) for us to cancel and never see them? It's completely illogical and asinine.

Second, the way combat works in this game is with visual clues. You don't get a message "X is casting Fireball at you". You see him casting, you see the fireball. But if he animation cancels, you just see a fireball. Which completely destroys the whole action->reaction combat system. If I can't see the ability being cast, how am I to react to it? Granted, eventually you learn and predict with high degree of accuracy what's going to happen, and what the combo will be, BUT that's not action-packed, reactive gameplay the game is supposed to have. It makes combat too prescriptive. The corollary of this is also that we're seeing "permablock problem". Which makes total sense, actually. If you don't see animations of what's coming, because they're being canceled, then wholesale blocking is a perfectly reasonable counter to that.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, IT LOOKS RIDICULOUS! Yes. Have you tried selling this game by showing someone the gameplay on the high end, with heavy animation canceling? For someone not in the know it looks like the player character is having a massive stroke. He's just stuttering and jerking and flames and whatnot is coming out of everywhere, and suddenly there's something on the ground but you didn't see it appear, etc., etc. For a game in 2018 (and released in '14) this is completely and utterly ridiculous. Look at other MMOs, with their beautiful, smooth animations, and look at your cream of the crop ESO animation canceler. ESO looks absolutely ridonculous. Now, actually having spent time in ESO, I can appreciate the skill (and low ping!) that this kind of gameplay requires. But for an average player, especially one contemplating ESO as a possible time-waster? That could be a killer. Why are you shooting YOURSELVES in the foot, ZOS? Do you not like money? I know that's not true, I've seen the 5,000 Crown motif in the store, and 12,500 crown house.

What I would like to see is something akin to what other MMOs do. The moment you activate an ability, the resource is expended (magicka, stamina or health). Then comes the animation. If you wish to cancel it, you should be able to. But you get no resource back, and no effect has taken place yet. It's only when the animation finishes, and the effect goes off, that you get the benefit (buff, shield, damage, heal, etc.) This is how it works in VAST majority of games, and it works really, really well. ESO's system is just absolutely nonsensical by comparison. This would also bring action->reaction and thought into the game, instead of just seeing which hairless ape can hammer out the combo fastest with lowest ping.

Now, I understand that the developers may lack the chops to fix the issue. Given how many technical problems the game has, and how long they persist, it is my firm belief that they are either grossly undermanned, or not very good at what they do. But both of these are fixable, by hiring people who are capable, on technical level, of fixing this nonsense in a reasonable time frame.

First, as a dd you shouldnt fully cancel animations (with block or whatever). It only happens when you swap bars.
I used to know a guy who tried to block cancel everything on a stamina char... Lets say it didnt go well for him. Not only his dps wasnt top notch, he also was constantly out of stamina.
Weaving force pulse, for example, doesnt cancel force pulse animation, its an INSTANT CAST ABILITY. If you dont believe me, check the tooltip.

Secondly, it doesnt work like this for at least 2 years. They changed animation prioritization and crazy macro stuff from 2014-2015 doesnt work anymore.
In pvp, its more about latency than anything. Also, you still have audio clues.

Finally, and most importantly, a lot of ESO animations look wonky, especially if youre using more than one skill. Its not an animation cancelling problem.

Nifty2g

Okay first of all light attacks sharing a GCD as normal is about the dumbest thing I've heard with how important light attacks have been made over the years.

Circuitous

Animation canceling is what lets you block or swap weapons or shield bash even while using a skill so that you can quickly respond to things happening in combat. It's what lets you use a skill immediately following a normal attack so you can keep up the offense.

It isn't a glitch. It isn't used exclusively by PvP players or high-tier endgame players. Everyone uses it, and everyone benefits from it.

If high ping prevents you from taking advantage of optimal animation canceling, remember that plenty of Oceanic trials guilds get by just fine even with that handicap, because it's actually extremely minor. Don't worry about it so much.

Sabbathius wrote: »

First, why take the time to make animations, only to then make it REQUIRED (if you want to be best of the best on leaderboards) for us to cancel and never see them? It's completely illogical and asinine.

For a smoother and more responsive gameplay experience.

Sabbathius wrote: »

Second, the way combat works in this game is with visual clues. You don't get a message "X is casting Fireball at you". You see him casting, you see the fireball. But if he animation cancels, you just see a fireball. Which completely destroys the whole action->reaction combat system. If I can't see the ability being cast, how am I to react to it? Granted, eventually you learn and predict with high degree of accuracy what's going to happen, and what the combo will be, BUT that's not action-packed, reactive gameplay the game is supposed to have. It makes combat too prescriptive. The corollary of this is also that we're seeing "permablock problem". Which makes total sense, actually. If you don't see animations of what's coming, because they're being canceled, then wholesale blocking is a perfectly reasonable counter to that.

It's important to note that you don't need a unique response to every possible skill that could be cast at you. For most skills you'll simply block. For AOEs, which have indicators, you'll move/roll away. Channeled skills have special visual cues that stand out regardless of the animation. So the situation you're describing doesn't actually exist in this game.

Furthermore, even if you could see the animation for someone casting a fireball, if it's an Instant skill, as most are, there's no chance you'd be able to "react" to it any better than without the animation.

Also, the "permablock problem" is that some builds were able to block permanently without losing Stamina. Just holding block to deal with incoming attacks isn't permablock, nor is it a problem.

Sabbathius wrote: »

What I would like to see is something akin to what other MMOs do. The moment you activate an ability, the resource is expended (magicka, stamina or health). Then comes the animation. If you wish to cancel it, you should be able to. But you get no resource back, and no effect has taken place yet. It's only when the animation finishes, and the effect goes off, that you get the benefit (buff, shield, damage, heal, etc.) This is how it works in VAST majority of games, and it works really, really well. ESO's system is just absolutely nonsensical by comparison. This would also bring action->reaction and thought into the game, instead of just seeing which hairless ape can hammer out the combo fastest with lowest ping.

ESO already has skills like this; they're the ones with a noted Cast Time. If you were to animation cancel before the cast time finished, you'd get no result. Most skills, however, are "Instant" and don't have this requirement, which is done by choice.

Sabbathius wrote: »

Also, in case it's not clear, this would solve a LOT of issues the game has. Not the least of which is PvE balance. If you balance the game around animation cancelers, then top tier content will be too difficult for average players, who may lack the time or even the physical capacity (we're all getting older and slower every day) or even just latency due to geographic location to animation cancel like that. And you risk alienating them and losing their money. If you balance it for average players, then animation cancelers will blow through that content in a day and leave bored, which is also something you don't want. BUT if you bring animation canceling to a sensible level, balancing will get a heck of a lot easier. Yes, this will bring the skill floor and ceiling a little closer together. But there's still ample room for skill with positioning, rotation correctness, direct counters (blocks, absorbs, dodges, etc). There's plenty you can capitalize on to keep skill a very meaningful factor in gameplay. Just not key-spamming like a spastic monkey. It's clearly not working. And this isn't just me, look at how often this subject comes up, year after year after year after year. Seriously, have we gone just a week, in the past 4 years, without people complaining about animation canceling? Why do you think that is?

Players who refuse to/can't animation cancel can just do Normal modes or find a build and rotation that doesn't make such heavy use of it. ZOS is not obligated to give them a spot on the leaderboards just for buying the game - those are for people who want to put in the time and effort to be competitive. Personally, I'm a terrible DPS, so I tend to stick with Normal mode for the harder content. I still get to experience it and get unique rewards, and ZOS can continue to balance the hardest modes around the people who want that challenge.

[The rest of your post is just a jab at ZOS and not worth acknowledging.]

CaffeinatedMayhem

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

This would make 99% of players angry. The point of this type of game *IS* to have a high/fast reaction time to be good at it. Players with slower reaction times should look more into single player games or perhaps getting a console CONTROLLER (I use one) either Xbox or PS ones for their PC. If you are already on console then I would suggest single player games.

Also, you could just not animation cancel yourself. That works fine, you just wont be pulling >30k DPS - If you tank or heal you don't really *need* to animation cancel so there's that.

Hi, I have a disability in my hands that makes animation cancelling impossible for me. I have to play with a controller, and the *** gamepad UI on PC means I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. I tank because I don't have to animation cancel, but most trials guilds won't have me becuse:

1. I don't have a DPS with high enough numbers to use when I'm not tanking.

2. I miss some taunts and skills in my rotation because f'n gamepad UI will literally not process the commands. Especially if you go "too fast".

Removing animation cancelling as a gameplay mechanic would make the 10% of uber competitive *** like yourself angry. The rest of us would be fine with it because truly challening gameplay is about mechanics and team communication, not twitch.

Joy_Division

People are way overestimating how powerful and "necessary" animation cancelling is to ESO. You aren't going to have the same DPS as Alcast if ZoS got rid of "animation cancelling tomorrow." You aren't going to be all of a sudden invited to guilds like Mechanically Challenged. If vMA is beyond your reach now, it's still going to be beyond your reach.

And it isn't even that hard to learn. I am probably the least coordinated person I know, my ring finger is incapable of functioning on its own, I use a $9.99 mouse, I am old enough to know my eyes and reflexes are not what they once were, and utterly incapable of keeping a steady beat or rhythm. It took me about two weeks to get animation canceling down so that it's natural and I do it without even thinking about it.

Dymence

thatlaurachick wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

This would make 99% of players angry. The point of this type of game *IS* to have a high/fast reaction time to be good at it. Players with slower reaction times should look more into single player games or perhaps getting a console CONTROLLER (I use one) either Xbox or PS ones for their PC. If you are already on console then I would suggest single player games.

Also, you could just not animation cancel yourself. That works fine, you just wont be pulling >30k DPS - If you tank or heal you don't really *need* to animation cancel so there's that.

Hi, I have a disability in my hands that makes animation cancelling impossible for me. I have to play with a controller, and the *** gamepad UI on PC means I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. I tank because I don't have to animation cancel, but most trials guilds won't have me becuse:

1. I don't have a DPS with high enough numbers to use when I'm not tanking.

2. I miss some taunts and skills in my rotation because f'n gamepad UI will literally not process the commands. Especially if you go "too fast".

Removing animation cancelling as a gameplay mechanic would make the 10% of uber competitive *** like yourself angry. The rest of us would be fine with it because truly challening gameplay is about mechanics and team communication, not twitch.

All you need to do, is fire off a skill after every light attack as per:



Do this, and you will have top tier DPS. Granted you execute a perfect rotation and keep your DoTs up. You don't even need to barswap cancel. That's merely something to excel above the already top tier.

It sounds more like the game is just too fast paced for you due to your disability. But that doesn't mean it needs to be slowed down to make it all inclusive, as has been said before, games CANNOT be made all inclusive. There will always be people who fall outside the boat, no matter how slow you make the game.

The only thing the removal of animation cancel will really do, is make the game clunky, unresponsive and unreliable. You won't be able to block anymore in the middle of a fight to defend yourself from imminent danger. You won't be able to roll out of red AOE anymore in time because you cannot stop your attacks.

Honestly for giggles, ZOS should remove animation cancelling for a day and I guarantee you that all the people who were so strictly against it will suddenly change their minds. Because the people who are against animation cancelling, actually have no idea of the implications that come with the removal of animation cancelling.

The removal of animation cancelling would make the game fall to ruin within less than a week.

Aznox

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

But again, the game does not tell you at all what animation canceling is or how to do it.

Aurielle wrote: »

Are we done here?

Thank you so much for this screenshot ! This is the ultimate /thread to all these pointless discussions.

And to the people asking for a change, if you have a good reason for not being able to "activate abilities immediately after using a light/heavy attack" just use some macro software to do it for you and everyone will be happy.

idk

Knowledge wrote: »

This game needs to be watered down a bit as it ages just like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XIV. The more accessible the game is the more casual players will come and enjoy it. By watered down, I mean to make older content easier with time, more catch up mechanics, and of course, an easier combat system to perform well in.

This would require the dumbing down or out right removal of animation cancelling.

Besides your comment being out of touch with the topic of this thread is also seems to be out of touch with how this game has been managed.

Zos has done a great job haveinf content for everyone and began this proceeds in earnest almost 2 years ago.

Every trial now has 3 difficulties. Every end game content including arenas and Dunedin’s has a normal version which is considerably easier than the vet version. Open world offers very easy mobs with slightly more challenging bosses in the base game while having a higher challenge with open world bosses in dlc areas.

There is someydod everyone and Zos has wisely chosen to cater to newer and more casual players while not alienating the rest of the game in a WoWification.

Edit: BTW much has been watered down wind launch 4 years ago.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Knowledge wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

No, git gud

I'm failing to understand why cancelling an animation makes someone good.

Simply put, animation canceling is what makes combat dynamic in this game. It allows you to adapt to changing circumstances and react to your opponent in real time. It takes skill to pull it off.

It has been said ad nauseam, but this was not intended originally. However, the devs quickly got behind it because they realized that it made combat better. Just because it wasnt on purpose, doesnt mean it was a bad thing (thanks penicillin).

The obvious downside to animation canceling is that it favors skilled players, and therefore, we get posts like this with people screaming about AC a few times a week pretty much since launch. Not saying this is necessarily the OP, because he seemed to be asking a legitimate question. This might make me sound like an elitiest, but I have NEVER met someone that I know to be a skilled player who was against AC. Ultimately, it's a L2P issue, because it is NOT going anywhere.

Knowledge

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

No, git gud

I'm failing to understand why cancelling an animation makes someone good.

Simply put, animation canceling is what makes combat dynamic in this game. It allows you to adapt to changing circumstances and react to your opponent in real time. It takes skill to pull it off.

It has been said ad nauseam, but this was not intended originally. However, the devs quickly got behind it because they realized that it made combat better. Just because it wasnt on purpose, doesnt mean it was a bad thing (thanks penicillin).

The obvious downside to animation canceling is that it favors skilled players, and therefore, we get posts like this with people screaming about AC a few times a week pretty much since launch. Not saying this is necessarily the OP, because he seemed to be asking a legitimate question. This might make me sound like an elitiest, but I have NEVER met someone that I know to be a skilled player who was against AC. Ultimately, it's a L2P issue, because it is NOT going anywhere.

It could be modified or changed.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Dymence wrote: »

thatlaurachick wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

This would make 99% of players angry. The point of this type of game *IS* to have a high/fast reaction time to be good at it. Players with slower reaction times should look more into single player games or perhaps getting a console CONTROLLER (I use one) either Xbox or PS ones for their PC. If you are already on console then I would suggest single player games.

Also, you could just not animation cancel yourself. That works fine, you just wont be pulling >30k DPS - If you tank or heal you don't really *need* to animation cancel so there's that.

Hi, I have a disability in my hands that makes animation cancelling impossible for me. I have to play with a controller, and the *** gamepad UI on PC means I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. I tank because I don't have to animation cancel, but most trials guilds won't have me becuse:

1. I don't have a DPS with high enough numbers to use when I'm not tanking.

2. I miss some taunts and skills in my rotation because f'n gamepad UI will literally not process the commands. Especially if you go "too fast".

Removing animation cancelling as a gameplay mechanic would make the 10% of uber competitive *** like yourself angry. The rest of us would be fine with it because truly challening gameplay is about mechanics and team communication, not twitch.

All you need to do, is fire off a skill after every light attack as per:



Do this, and you will have top tier DPS. Granted you execute a perfect rotation and keep your DoTs up. You don't even need to barswap cancel. That's merely something to excel above the already top tier.

It sounds more like the game is just too fast paced for you due to your disability. But that doesn't mean it needs to be slowed down to make it all inclusive, as has been said before, games CANNOT be made all inclusive. There will always be people who fall outside the boat, no matter how slow you make the game.

The only thing the removal of animation cancel will really do, is make the game clunky, unresponsive and unreliable. You won't be able to block anymore in the middle of a fight to defend yourself from imminent danger. You won't be able to roll out of red AOE anymore in time because you cannot stop your attacks.

Honestly for giggles, ZOS should remove animation cancelling for a day and I guarantee you that all the people who were so strictly against it will suddenly change their minds. Because the people who are against animation cancelling, actually have no idea of the implications that come with the removal of animation cancelling.

The removal of animation cancelling would make the game fall to ruin within less than a week.

LOVE this post. Only thing I disagree with is the use of your original picture. It's good advice, but weaving and AC are NOT the same thing, and the two are often confused on the forums. We dont need posts like this to know the devs support weaving, but I am glad its there to put the idea into the minds of new players.

If you want to know the devs position on weaving, play NB for an hour. The class is designed around it.

exeeter702

Jade1986 wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

No, git gud

I'm failing to understand why cancelling an animation makes someone good.

Because, you know, this is also a competitive game, and one of the (few) instances that the game rewards, skill and dedication is with consistant and proper laid down of animation cancels.

Same reason why, for example, fighting games are build around the idea of trying to maximize combos.

False equivelancy. Your comparison would mean that in fighting games certain parts of combos would be removed entirely , but the damage would stay, so the combo would be sped up.

That is the proper comparison. This game is supposed to be reactive. That is where the skill is suppposed to be. You cannot react to something you cannot see. So there is no skill there, only muscle memory.

What the hell are you talking about? Seriously statements like this demonstrate how much you dont understand about this subject. Ffs

There is NO ability in this game that can have its animation masked to the end result of it becoming unreactable outside of pure latency / server issues.

Instant cast abilities are instant, full stop, period, end of discussion. If you are in range and you meet the criteria for connecting a skill on a target, the ability will resolve instantly, regardless of what animation you see on your screen. There is nothing for you to react to. If a nb is in applicable range for suprise attack on a target and fires off the skill, thats the end of it, the commitment from either player ends and thw game calculates the results, regardless of wether or not the NB cancels the recovery animation of the skill since that is well after the fact. This applies to ANY instant cast ability in the game, ultimates included. Cast time abilites do not even resolve until the cast bar completes, if the caster cancels the cast at any point before it completes, they are rewarded with nothing. And channeled abilites only yield as much as you channel for.

You can NOT mask an animation to make it invisible and unreactable by virtue of the very nature of instant cast abilities and how they function in eso. Animations canceling only effects the recovery animations of abilities which occur after abilities resolve, which again plays out during the GCD refresh anyways.

You dont know what your talking about.

Dymence

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

thatlaurachick wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

This would make 99% of players angry. The point of this type of game *IS* to have a high/fast reaction time to be good at it. Players with slower reaction times should look more into single player games or perhaps getting a console CONTROLLER (I use one) either Xbox or PS ones for their PC. If you are already on console then I would suggest single player games.

Also, you could just not animation cancel yourself. That works fine, you just wont be pulling >30k DPS - If you tank or heal you don't really *need* to animation cancel so there's that.

Hi, I have a disability in my hands that makes animation cancelling impossible for me. I have to play with a controller, and the *** gamepad UI on PC means I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. I tank because I don't have to animation cancel, but most trials guilds won't have me becuse:

1. I don't have a DPS with high enough numbers to use when I'm not tanking.

2. I miss some taunts and skills in my rotation because f'n gamepad UI will literally not process the commands. Especially if you go "too fast".

Removing animation cancelling as a gameplay mechanic would make the 10% of uber competitive *** like yourself angry. The rest of us would be fine with it because truly challening gameplay is about mechanics and team communication, not twitch.

All you need to do, is fire off a skill after every light attack as per:



Do this, and you will have top tier DPS. Granted you execute a perfect rotation and keep your DoTs up. You don't even need to barswap cancel. That's merely something to excel above the already top tier.

It sounds more like the game is just too fast paced for you due to your disability. But that doesn't mean it needs to be slowed down to make it all inclusive, as has been said before, games CANNOT be made all inclusive. There will always be people who fall outside the boat, no matter how slow you make the game.

The only thing the removal of animation cancel will really do, is make the game clunky, unresponsive and unreliable. You won't be able to block anymore in the middle of a fight to defend yourself from imminent danger. You won't be able to roll out of red AOE anymore in time because you cannot stop your attacks.

Honestly for giggles, ZOS should remove animation cancelling for a day and I guarantee you that all the people who were so strictly against it will suddenly change their minds. Because the people who are against animation cancelling, actually have no idea of the implications that come with the removal of animation cancelling.

The removal of animation cancelling would make the game fall to ruin within less than a week.

LOVE this post. Only thing I disagree with is the use of your original picture. It's good advice, but weaving and AC are NOT the same thing, and the two are often confused on the forums. We dont need posts like this to know the devs support weaving, but I am glad its there to put the idea into the minds of new players.

If you want to know the devs position on weaving, play NB for an hour. The class is designed around it.

I don't see it as animation cancelling, either. But it has been named as such many times by several people in this thread, so I merely adapted.

I have said this once before, but if people here do not consider weaving animation cancelling, then they are seriously out of touch with the actual gains of animation cancelling.

In a PVE scenario the only real animation cancels you will be doing in order to improve DPS, is barswap cancelling abilities when you need to go to the other bar to continue your rotation. And realistically speaking, barswap cancelling will give you less than 1K DPS on a parse. Doesn't seem all that mighty considering people are pulling over 40K on a dummy.

So where's the problem?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

exeeter702 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

No, git gud

I'm failing to understand why cancelling an animation makes someone good.

Because, you know, this is also a competitive game, and one of the (few) instances that the game rewards, skill and dedication is with consistant and proper laid down of animation cancels.

Same reason why, for example, fighting games are build around the idea of trying to maximize combos.

False equivelancy. Your comparison would mean that in fighting games certain parts of combos would be removed entirely , but the damage would stay, so the combo would be sped up.

That is the proper comparison. This game is supposed to be reactive. That is where the skill is suppposed to be. You cannot react to something you cannot see. So there is no skill there, only muscle memory.

What the hell are you talking about? Seriously statements like this demonstrate how much you dont understand about this subject. Ffs

There is NO ability in this game that can have its animation masked to the end result of it becoming unreactable outside of pure latency / server issues.

Instant cast abilities are instant, full stop, period, end of discussion. If you are in range and you meet the criteria for connecting a skill on a target, the ability will resolve instantly, regardless of what animation you see on your screen. There is nothing for you to react to. If a nb is in applicable range for suprise attack on a target and fires off the skill, thats the end of it, the commitment from either player ends and thw game calculates the results, regardless of wether or not the NB cancels the recovery animation of the skill since that is well after the fact. This applies to ANY instant cast ability in the game, ultimates included. Cast time abilites do not even resolve until the cast bar completes, if the caster cancels the cast at any point before it completes, they are rewarded with nothing. And channeled abilites only yield as much as you channel for.

You can NOT mask an animation to make it invisible and unreactable by virtue of the very nature of instant cast abilities and how they function in eso. Animations canceling only effects the recovery animations of abilities which occur after abilities resolve, which again plays out during the GCD refresh anyways.

You dont know what your talking about.

And you obviously do. Good explanation

Micah_Bayer

mesmerizedish wrote: »

Animation canceling is an unnecessary impediment to those who play with 250ms+ latencies, such as p. much anyone in Oceania.

It really is the responsibility of the developers of an MMO to make as sure as is reasonable that skill really is the limiting factor and not things entirely outside of players' control, like what country they live in.

It's one thing to say "hey, if you've got the skills, you can eke out a couple thousand more dps." It's another to say "oh, and also, if you live in Australia, you're screwed."

Enzo lives in Brazil and he can animation cancel better than me

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Dymence wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

thatlaurachick wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

This would make 99% of players angry. The point of this type of game *IS* to have a high/fast reaction time to be good at it. Players with slower reaction times should look more into single player games or perhaps getting a console CONTROLLER (I use one) either Xbox or PS ones for their PC. If you are already on console then I would suggest single player games.

Also, you could just not animation cancel yourself. That works fine, you just wont be pulling >30k DPS - If you tank or heal you don't really *need* to animation cancel so there's that.

Hi, I have a disability in my hands that makes animation cancelling impossible for me. I have to play with a controller, and the *** gamepad UI on PC means I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. I tank because I don't have to animation cancel, but most trials guilds won't have me becuse:

1. I don't have a DPS with high enough numbers to use when I'm not tanking.

2. I miss some taunts and skills in my rotation because f'n gamepad UI will literally not process the commands. Especially if you go "too fast".

Removing animation cancelling as a gameplay mechanic would make the 10% of uber competitive *** like yourself angry. The rest of us would be fine with it because truly challening gameplay is about mechanics and team communication, not twitch.

All you need to do, is fire off a skill after every light attack as per:



Do this, and you will have top tier DPS. Granted you execute a perfect rotation and keep your DoTs up. You don't even need to barswap cancel. That's merely something to excel above the already top tier.

It sounds more like the game is just too fast paced for you due to your disability. But that doesn't mean it needs to be slowed down to make it all inclusive, as has been said before, games CANNOT be made all inclusive. There will always be people who fall outside the boat, no matter how slow you make the game.

The only thing the removal of animation cancel will really do, is make the game clunky, unresponsive and unreliable. You won't be able to block anymore in the middle of a fight to defend yourself from imminent danger. You won't be able to roll out of red AOE anymore in time because you cannot stop your attacks.

Honestly for giggles, ZOS should remove animation cancelling for a day and I guarantee you that all the people who were so strictly against it will suddenly change their minds. Because the people who are against animation cancelling, actually have no idea of the implications that come with the removal of animation cancelling.

The removal of animation cancelling would make the game fall to ruin within less than a week.

LOVE this post. Only thing I disagree with is the use of your original picture. It's good advice, but weaving and AC are NOT the same thing, and the two are often confused on the forums. We dont need posts like this to know the devs support weaving, but I am glad its there to put the idea into the minds of new players.

If you want to know the devs position on weaving, play NB for an hour. The class is designed around it.

I don't see it as animation cancelling, either. But it has been named as such many times by several people in this thread, so I merely adapted.

I have said this once before, but if people here do not consider weaving animation cancelling, then they are seriously out of touch with the actual gains of animation cancelling.

In a PVE scenario the only real animation cancels you will be doing in order to improve DPS, is barswap cancelling abilities when you need to go to the other bar to continue your rotation. And realistically speaking, barswap cancelling will give you less than 1K DPS on a parse. Doesn't seem all that mighty considering people are pulling over 40K on a dummy.

So where's the problem?

I think we agree, but that part confuses me. Haha. Weaving does not equal AC, but they do require a similar skill set. If ZOS did decide to remove AC, which admittedly would be funny for an afternoon, you would presumably still be able to weave light attcks.

Also, you are absolutely correct. The only relevant animation canceling to maximize PVE DPS is bar swap canceling. It's hard to quantify how much it adds. In a classic circular rotation, not very much. In a rotation like mageblade, its going to be more. Block and Dodgeroll canceling are relevant to end game DPS in terms of reacting to damage, but not to perfecting their rotation. And of course as you stated, remove the ability to AC, and you will see a lot of dead potatoes in red circles.

Knowledge

I would like animation cancelling to be changed so my friends across the world in Australia and New Zealand can play with me on a competitive level.

Dymence

Knowledge wrote: »

I would like animation cancelling to be changed so my friends across the world in Australia and New Zealand can play with me on a competitive level.

You don't seem like you play on a competitive level, so I wouldn't worry about that if I were you.

Also, I'd be more concerned what high latency does to your survivability rather than your DPS. Not being able to get out of red and such. No animation cancel removal will do anything about that.

Knowledge

Dymence wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I would like animation cancelling to be changed so my friends across the world in Australia and New Zealand can play with me on a competitive level.

You don't seem like you play on a competitive level, so I wouldn't worry about that if I were you.

Also, I'd be more concerned what high latency does to your survivability rather than your DPS. Not being able to get out of red and such. No animation cancel removal will do anything about that.

How does someone "seem" to play on a competitive level?

Aurielle

Dymence wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

thatlaurachick wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

This would make 99% of players angry. The point of this type of game *IS* to have a high/fast reaction time to be good at it. Players with slower reaction times should look more into single player games or perhaps getting a console CONTROLLER (I use one) either Xbox or PS ones for their PC. If you are already on console then I would suggest single player games.

Also, you could just not animation cancel yourself. That works fine, you just wont be pulling >30k DPS - If you tank or heal you don't really *need* to animation cancel so there's that.

Hi, I have a disability in my hands that makes animation cancelling impossible for me. I have to play with a controller, and the *** gamepad UI on PC means I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. I tank because I don't have to animation cancel, but most trials guilds won't have me becuse:

1. I don't have a DPS with high enough numbers to use when I'm not tanking.

2. I miss some taunts and skills in my rotation because f'n gamepad UI will literally not process the commands. Especially if you go "too fast".

Removing animation cancelling as a gameplay mechanic would make the 10% of uber competitive *** like yourself angry. The rest of us would be fine with it because truly challening gameplay is about mechanics and team communication, not twitch.

All you need to do, is fire off a skill after every light attack as per:



Do this, and you will have top tier DPS. Granted you execute a perfect rotation and keep your DoTs up. You don't even need to barswap cancel. That's merely something to excel above the already top tier.

It sounds more like the game is just too fast paced for you due to your disability. But that doesn't mean it needs to be slowed down to make it all inclusive, as has been said before, games CANNOT be made all inclusive. There will always be people who fall outside the boat, no matter how slow you make the game.

The only thing the removal of animation cancel will really do, is make the game clunky, unresponsive and unreliable. You won't be able to block anymore in the middle of a fight to defend yourself from imminent danger. You won't be able to roll out of red AOE anymore in time because you cannot stop your attacks.

Honestly for giggles, ZOS should remove animation cancelling for a day and I guarantee you that all the people who were so strictly against it will suddenly change their minds. Because the people who are against animation cancelling, actually have no idea of the implications that come with the removal of animation cancelling.

The removal of animation cancelling would make the game fall to ruin within less than a week.

LOVE this post. Only thing I disagree with is the use of your original picture. It's good advice, but weaving and AC are NOT the same thing, and the two are often confused on the forums. We dont need posts like this to know the devs support weaving, but I am glad its there to put the idea into the minds of new players.

If you want to know the devs position on weaving, play NB for an hour. The class is designed around it.

I don't see it as animation cancelling, either. But it has been named as such many times by several people in this thread, so I merely adapted.

I have said this once before, but if people here do not consider weaving animation cancelling, then they are seriously out of touch with the actual gains of animation cancelling.

In a PVE scenario the only real animation cancels you will be doing in order to improve DPS, is barswap cancelling abilities when you need to go to the other bar to continue your rotation. And realistically speaking, barswap cancelling will give you less than 1K DPS on a parse. Doesn't seem all that mighty considering people are pulling over 40K on a dummy.

So where's the problem?

Yep, that's why I originally posted the image. Just about everyone who's against "animation cancelling" is technically against rapid light attack weaving, and possibly bar-swap cancelling. I personally don't know ANY top-tier damage dealers who block cancel the animations of their actual skills, resulting in the mythical "stuttering, jerky" gameplay that people like Sabbathius are whining about. Most damage dealers just light attack weave, and some bar-swap cancel. I bar-swap cancel precisely two skills: my sorc's scamp, and my Warden's betty. Otherwise, I'm just weaving, and animation cancelling when I need to dodge-roll out of AOE, or block.

Effective light attack weaving does take some practice and benefits from muscle memory. If anyone on PS4 NA can't do it and is particularly angry about it, I'll give you access to my home so you can practice on my target dummy. I didn't just magically "get good" -- I had to practice, and practice, and practice. I still haven't hit 30k without healer buffs, so I'm continuing to practice, and practice, and practice.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Aurielle wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

thatlaurachick wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

This would make 99% of players angry. The point of this type of game *IS* to have a high/fast reaction time to be good at it. Players with slower reaction times should look more into single player games or perhaps getting a console CONTROLLER (I use one) either Xbox or PS ones for their PC. If you are already on console then I would suggest single player games.

Also, you could just not animation cancel yourself. That works fine, you just wont be pulling >30k DPS - If you tank or heal you don't really *need* to animation cancel so there's that.

Hi, I have a disability in my hands that makes animation cancelling impossible for me. I have to play with a controller, and the *** gamepad UI on PC means I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. I tank because I don't have to animation cancel, but most trials guilds won't have me becuse:

1. I don't have a DPS with high enough numbers to use when I'm not tanking.

2. I miss some taunts and skills in my rotation because f'n gamepad UI will literally not process the commands. Especially if you go "too fast".

Removing animation cancelling as a gameplay mechanic would make the 10% of uber competitive *** like yourself angry. The rest of us would be fine with it because truly challening gameplay is about mechanics and team communication, not twitch.

All you need to do, is fire off a skill after every light attack as per:



Do this, and you will have top tier DPS. Granted you execute a perfect rotation and keep your DoTs up. You don't even need to barswap cancel. That's merely something to excel above the already top tier.

It sounds more like the game is just too fast paced for you due to your disability. But that doesn't mean it needs to be slowed down to make it all inclusive, as has been said before, games CANNOT be made all inclusive. There will always be people who fall outside the boat, no matter how slow you make the game.

The only thing the removal of animation cancel will really do, is make the game clunky, unresponsive and unreliable. You won't be able to block anymore in the middle of a fight to defend yourself from imminent danger. You won't be able to roll out of red AOE anymore in time because you cannot stop your attacks.

Honestly for giggles, ZOS should remove animation cancelling for a day and I guarantee you that all the people who were so strictly against it will suddenly change their minds. Because the people who are against animation cancelling, actually have no idea of the implications that come with the removal of animation cancelling.

The removal of animation cancelling would make the game fall to ruin within less than a week.

LOVE this post. Only thing I disagree with is the use of your original picture. It's good advice, but weaving and AC are NOT the same thing, and the two are often confused on the forums. We dont need posts like this to know the devs support weaving, but I am glad its there to put the idea into the minds of new players.

If you want to know the devs position on weaving, play NB for an hour. The class is designed around it.

I don't see it as animation cancelling, either. But it has been named as such many times by several people in this thread, so I merely adapted.

I have said this once before, but if people here do not consider weaving animation cancelling, then they are seriously out of touch with the actual gains of animation cancelling.

In a PVE scenario the only real animation cancels you will be doing in order to improve DPS, is barswap cancelling abilities when you need to go to the other bar to continue your rotation. And realistically speaking, barswap cancelling will give you less than 1K DPS on a parse. Doesn't seem all that mighty considering people are pulling over 40K on a dummy.

So where's the problem?

Yep, that's why I originally posted the image. Just about everyone who's against "animation cancelling" is technically against rapid light attack weaving, and possibly bar-swap cancelling. I personally don't know ANY top-tier damage dealers who block cancel the animations of their actual skills, resulting in the mythical "stuttering, jerky" gameplay that people like Sabbathius are whining about. Most damage dealers just light attack weave, and some bar-swap cancel. I bar-swap cancel precisely two skills: my sorc's scamp, and my Warden's betty. Otherwise, I'm just weaving, and animation cancelling when I need to dodge-roll out of AOE, or block.

Effective light attack weaving does take some practice and benefits from muscle memory. If anyone on PS4 NA can't do it and is particularly angry about it, I'll give you access to my home so you can practice on my target dummy. I didn't just magically "get good" -- I had to practice, and practice, and practice. I still haven't hit 30k without healer buffs, so I'm continuing to practice, and practice, and practice.

This is very true as far as I can tell. People that say you need to AC for competitive DPS are confusing it with a good weave. The only practical way I see to remove weaving, would be to put light attacks on the same GCD as skills, which would drastically alter the way this game plays, and that's an understatement. It would also be the single greatest class nerf (Nightblade) that we have ever seen, sure some people would love that.

Bar swap cancelling does affect DPS, but not more than a few K at most. Even when you look at someone like LZH (arguably the best animation canceler in the game from a PVE DPS perspective) who swap cancels darn near every skill on his nightblade, his DPS is only 2-3k (on a dummy) ahead of the rest of us that cant do it nearly as effectively. No class benefits from it more than magic nightblade, because they have the least circular rotation of any class, and nobody playes mageblade better than LZH. On a 6million dummy parse, he usually swap cancels around 75 times (yes I have counted). I typically do about 60% of that, and the swaps arent nearly as tight. Our DPS on a 6 million dummy is less than 3k apart. It matters, and there is a reason he is the best, but to act like it AC is going to take you from 20k-40k is just plain false.