Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

Nelson_Rebel · March 2018

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Decent numbers I guess. Just can't bring myself to rely on proc chance. That's on me though.

The difference here, is that the proc has a 10% to occur on any damage done to you. And it gives two separate, powerful effects with weapon damage and healing. Both in and out of werewolf the sets proc.

What's more is that if this set procs while you happen to be under 50% health I believe it will proc troll king as well. As it counts as a healing affect. I have to verify that but I'm work so I can't

Datolite · March 2018

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Decent numbers I guess. Just can't bring myself to rely on proc chance. That's on me though.

The difference here, is that the proc has a 10% to occur on any damage done to you. And it gives two separate, powerful effects with weapon damage and healing. Both in and out of werewolf the sets proc.

What's more is that if this set procs while you happen to be under 50% health I believe it will proc troll king as well. As it counts as a healing affect. I have to verify that but I'm work so I can't

Good point. Is there a visual effect for the proc? At least something to tell you that you have 5 seconds of burst?

Aznox · March 2018

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

What's more is that if this set procs while you happen to be under 50% health I believe it will proc troll king as well. As it counts as a healing affect. I have to verify that but I'm work so I can't

This is true, i'm already using lingering health potion for this reason. (also works with the CP bonus that heals on crit received)

Datolite · March 2018

Also was thinking of a "noob friendly" build for my friend who wants to try WW. No procs, no overkill, no re-casting rune focus for major ward/resolve, just something low maintenance and well-rounded that would also be effective in human form. What do you guys think of this?

Orc Stamplar
2x Chudan heavy
5x Pelinals 3 medium, weapons
5x Automaton 2 medium, 3 jewels
2H nirnhoned sword with weapon damage glyph
1 nirnhoned axe with weapon damage, 1 infused with magicka steal
All impen with prismatic glyphs
Warrior mundus and stam regen glyphs (or magicka for heals?)
Tri-stat food and stam/speed/immovable pots

Two-handed:
1 Biting Jabs
2 Stampede
3 Executioner
4 Binding Javelin
5 Forward Momentum
U Flawless Dawnbreaker

Dual-wield:
1 Ritual of Retribution
2 Resolving Vigor
3 Dark Flare
4 Power of the Light
5 Honor the Dead
U Werewolf Berserker

Alternatively, could easily make it 5 heavy/2 med if it turns out to be too squishy. Change those stat jewelry glyphs to weapon damage. It's not especially imaginative but I'm going for low skill level entry, not too unforgiving. I know how hard it was to memorize 3 bars the first time I went WW and my friend isn't quite as experienced.

Edit: I should mention this is for no-CP BGs. Though I could see it translating well into Cyrodiil.

Ritter · March 2018

@Aznox - You're probably right about Elegant, it's a gimmick but a fun idea. Strongest with Kvatch I think, but super weak in human form.

There's just always something I'd rather be trying than Shacklebreaker it seems, but I'll get around to running it one day.

We'll have to disagree on the meta issue... when everyone starts throwing rock, you can't keep throwing scissors! heh

Looking forward to your OP build, you are a good person for sharing it!

@Xvorg -- Air could be used with Senche to maximize a troll-dodge build of some sort, but the 2,3, and 5pc bonus aren't quite strong enough to justify not having a 4pc that is relevant to combat, IMO.

@Nelson_Rebel Mad respect to your O.G. setup, it's not a bad one. Most of us are trying to find a niche and be cheeky if we're honest, but that sounds like an old faithful. I'm of the opinion that Ravager is better than Seventh Legion on WW, especially after the nerf.

@datoliteb16_ESO - I like your build but it seems to be going in two different directions as Auto does not synergize at all with Pelinals, as the 400WD you get is not actually granted, but added to skills if that makes sense. If it gave you 400WD, it would be quite strong and might be decent anyways TBH. To answer your earlier question, my setup runs at near-capped physical and over-capped magic resistance so that + mediocre bounty heal + blocking + potions are my survival. Line of sight and smart play helps, of course! The way I see it, when you're at capped resists every bit of healing is twice as potent because even if you heal for 4k on a bounty, it takes at least 8k of incoming damage to remove that HP due to resistances. Elegant is so bad out of WW that I wouldn't really run it.

Datolite · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@datoliteb16_ESO - I like your build but it seems to be going in two different directions as Auto does not synergize at all with Pelinals, as the 400WD you get is not actually granted, but added to skills if that makes sense. If it gave you 400WD, it would be quite strong and might be decent anyways TBH. To answer your earlier question, my setup runs at near-capped physical and over-capped magic resistance so that + mediocre bounty heal + blocking + potions are my survival. Line of sight and smart play helps, of course! The way I see it, when you're at capped resists every bit of healing is twice as potent because even if you heal for 4k on a bounty, it takes at least 8k of incoming damage to remove that HP due to resistances. Elegant is so bad out of WW that I wouldn't really run it.

Wow thanks for the heads up. Glad I didn't get him to farm Automaton haha. Is there a damage set that would work well with Pelinals?

Also makes sense. Too bad there is no stam/speed/health pot. Guess I'll have to get used to blocking more!

Ritter · March 2018

@datoliteb16_ESO - I always favor 5x Medium so my builds with Pelinal's aim to stack WD on all jewelry and use Nirn+Infused WD enchant, mostly relying on the +60% collective WD buff you get (20% major B, 10% bounty, 12% medium armor, 18% WW passive). That opens you up for a sustain set like Bone Pirate and you can run any Monster set you want, although I'm an outright Chudan loyalist I think...

Edit: for reference, your buffed WD in just Pelinal's is 4520 -- that's with 3x WD enchants, Nirn main+Infused WD offhand and 5x Medium and no other WD set bonuses at all. If you want to be greedy, go for Ravager, but I like Truth a lot. Seventh Legion may also be really strong, not sure how the heal is in practice right now.

Skander · March 2018

Please let this be a meta so ww can finally be balanced for the best of pvp

Aznox · March 2018

Skander wrote: »

Please let this be a meta so ww can finally be balanced for the best of pvp

Here comes Skander, Bringer of Nerf

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4918193

Waffennacht · March 2018

Any try Zaan yet?

Thinking the bleed + Zaan + the tool kit would be fierce

Pelinal + ?

I'm waiting for WW to be fixed on console before I use it again

Aznox · March 2018

Here's a quick recap of the build i use in deathmatch battleground.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=48969

Stats are from self-buffed werewolf form, without CP.
Trap and Shield bar ult are flex slots, but this doesn't matter much as one transform will often last the whole deathmatch.
Double dot poison are on shield bar of course (this is based of an old import, couldn't modify)

Will post the duel variant with cp but it's pretty much the same.

Secret sauce is [Invisibility + health (+20% health regen) + Lingering health] pots that are to be used when needed to counter the main weakness of this build : getting bursted.

Datolite · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@datoliteb16_ESO - I always favor 5x Medium so my builds with Pelinal's aim to stack WD on all jewelry and use Nirn+Infused WD enchant, mostly relying on the +60% collective WD buff you get (20% major B, 10% bounty, 12% medium armor, 18% WW passive). That opens you up for a sustain set like Bone Pirate and you can run any Monster set you want, although I'm an outright Chudan loyalist I think...

Edit: for reference, your buffed WD in just Pelinal's is 4520 -- that's with 3x WD enchants, Nirn main+Infused WD offhand and 5x Medium and no other WD set bonuses at all. If you want to be greedy, go for Ravager, but I like Truth a lot. Seventh Legion may also be really strong, not sure how the heal is in practice right now.

I have most of a set of truth, still farming, but in the meantime will go with senche. Works just as well in human form and has crit for heal.

BaylorCorvette · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Will post the duel variant with cp but it's pretty much the same.

Maybe a dumb question, but does bound armaments carry over into WW form? Also curious to see your CP allocation. I want to try WW in open world (I don't do many BG's).

Aznox · March 2018

Bound armaments do not carry over into WW. Will post CP version tonight.

Veo · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Here's a quick recap of the build i use in deathmatch battleground.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=48969

Stats are from self-buffed werewolf form, without CP.
Trap and Shield bar ult are flex slots, but this doesn't matter much as one transform will often last the whole deathmatch.
Double dot poison are on shield bar of course (this is based of an old import, couldn't modify)

Will post the duel variant with cp but it's pretty much the same.

Secret sauce is [Invisibility + health (+20% health regen) + Lingering health] pots that are to be used when needed to counter the main weakness of this build : getting bursted.

Trying out your build this week, thanks for sharing Aznox!
As a beginner should i maybe chose claws of life over agony?
Also i think i really want that vigor on my backbar, just to feel safe.

Nelson_Rebel · March 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

Any try Zaan yet?

Thinking the bleed + Zaan + the tool kit would be fierce

Pelinal + ?

I'm waiting for WW to be fixed on console before I use it again

I've been using my werewolf and thus far I haven't seen what's bugged yet.

What is broken on console?

Chrlynsch · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Bound armaments do not carry over into WW. Will post CP version tonight.

How do you like that weakening glyph? I really haven't played around with it.

Aznox · March 2018

Veo wrote: »

As a beginner should i maybe chose claws of life over agony?

Claws of life is going to heal you for something like 15k (damage) /2 (pvp) /2 (enemy armor) /2 (50%heal) = around 2k health over 10sec

Claws of Anguish, even in no-CP (30% debuff) will negate thousands (possibily around 8-10k if the enemy is under vigor for the whole 10sec)

+2k for you vs -8k for your prey, do i need to say more ?

Also i think i really want that vigor on my backbar, just to feel safe.

Always a good idea to start more tanky when trying a new build/playstyle, trade for damage when confidence rise.

Aznox · March 2018

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

What is broken on console?

Using a synergy while in WW form will get you stuck in a half un-transformed state. was fixed on PC one week ago.

Aznox · March 2018

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Bound armaments do not carry over into WW. Will post CP version tonight.

How do you like that weakening glyph? I really haven't played around with it.

I didn't take the time to do hard math yet, but whats great with this glyph is that its useful both offensively and defensively :
- You are pressuring the enemy who is in full panic mode : his healing are reduced
- The enemy is trying to burst you down : his damage are reduced

Chrlynsch · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Veo wrote: »

As a beginner should i maybe chose claws of life over agony?

Claws of life is going to heal you for something like 15k (damage) /2 (pvp) /2 (enemy armor) /2 (50%heal) = around 2k health over 10sec

Claws of Anguish, even in no-CP (30% debuff) will negate thousands (possibily around 8-10k if the enemy is under vigor for the whole 10sec)

+2k for you vs -8k for your prey, do i need to say more ?

Also i think i really want that vigor on my backbar, just to feel safe.

Always a good idea to start more tanky when trying a new build/playstyle, trade for damage when confidence rise.

Good points with on claws morphs, remember that claws is disease damage so there is a chance to proc Major Defile. Not a large one, but still a chance.

Werewolf claws of anguish still does not affect Health Regen as of dragon bones.

Claws of life does not start healing you until the dot damage ticks in. I think they could really help this ability out by giving it the light attack bleed treatment. Applying the first dot of damage on the initial hit and thus the heal. This ability is currently very effective in Pve and PVP situations with lots of enemy npcs like in keeps and imperial city.

Sharee · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Veo wrote: »

As a beginner should i maybe chose claws of life over agony?

Claws of life is going to heal you for something like 15k (damage) /2 (pvp) /2 (enemy armor) /2 (50%heal) = around 2k health over 10sec

Claws of Anguish, even in no-CP (30% debuff) will negate thousands (possibily around 8-10k if the enemy is under vigor for the whole 10sec)

+2k for you vs -8k for your prey, do i need to say more ?

Keep in mind the ability is AOE. So the final heal you get from claws of life is multiplied by the number of people you hit. It can be very effective at keeping you alive in a highly clustered scenario.

Also, i am not quite sure the heal suffers from the battle spirit reduction twice (first halving the damage you do, then halving the healing you receive which is already based on the reduced damage you do). I vaguely remember ZOS patched out this "double dipping" (not for claws of life specifically, but in general) out a long time ago. However i did not test this recently.

Aznox · March 2018

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Good points with on claws morphs, remember that claws is disease damage so there is a chance to proc Major Defile. Not a large one, but still a chance.

That would be 1 or 3% (not sure of the category applied) to apply Major Defile for 4 seconds, every time disease damage is applied.

4x10/33 or 4x10/100 (not taking overlap into account but that's negligible)

so statistically you would have 1.2sec or 0.4sec of Major Defile per 10sec of Claws of Life.
so 12% or 4% (i think it's 4%) uptime versus 100% uptime for Claws of Anguish.

Don't count on it

Aznox · March 2018

Sharee wrote: »

Keep in mind the ability is AOE. So the final heal you get from claws of life is multiplied by the number of people you hit. It can be very effective at keeping you alive in a highly clustered scenario.

Linear scaling with the number of targets works with Anguish too, if it's better against one target it's better against 10.

Also, i am not quite sure the heal suffers from the battle spirit reduction twice (first halving the damage you do, then halving the healing you receive which is already based on the reduced damage you do). I vaguely remember ZOS patched out this "double dipping" (not for claws of life specifically, but in general) out a long time ago. However i did not test this recently.

That would not surprise me, but even then, i would never consider dropping Claws of Anguish.

Major Defile is among the most powerful effects in the game, and passing an opportunity to get 100% uptime of it would be a big mistake.

It's even worse in Duel/CP environment were the Befoul passive gets this status to 45% healing reduction.
That's maybe the single most impacting morph choice of all Werewolf abilities.

Aznox · March 2018

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Werewolf claws of anguish still does not affect Health Regen as of dragon bones.

That is true but i would argue pressure/sustain builds running Troll King are among our easiest matchup anyway.

Sharee · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Keep in mind the ability is AOE. So the final heal you get from claws of life is multiplied by the number of people you hit. It can be very effective at keeping you alive in a highly clustered scenario.

Linear scaling with the number of targets works with Anguish too, if it's better against one target it's better against 10.

Sure, you will debuff 10 targets, but since werewolves are primarily single-target damage dealers, the fact other targets besides the one you are trying to kill are debuffed too doesn't really help.

That does not apply for group play of course(mass aoe debuff is great when others are dealing damage to those you debuffed), but then for group play claws of life are useless to begin with since you are getting healed by your groups healer so i assume we are talking about a solo WW fighting multiple targets.

Don't get me wrong, i agree with you that claws of anguish are generally more useful, and that's what i am using, too, just that you maybe portrayed the other morph a bit worse than it actually is. It can be situationally useful.

Nelson_Rebel · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

What is broken on console?

Using a synergy while in WW form will get you stuck in a half un-transformed state. was fixed on PC one week ago.

Did ZoS say when they were releasing a fix for console werewolves?

Aznox · March 2018

I havent read anything specific but we got it around 10 days after big patch. Should come soon for you.

Ritter · March 2018

@Chrlynsch - Busy day at the office, love the chatter here!

For the record, 'The Diseased status can be applied by dealing Disease Damage to a character. A diseased enemy suffers from Minor defile debuff for 4 seconds, decreasing their healing received by 15%.'

Claw is not redundant, but gives us a chance to debuff with both Major and Minor defile!

^---Corrected below, apologies.

Aznox · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

For the record, 'The Diseased status can be applied by dealing Disease Damage to a character. A diseased enemy suffers from Minor defile debuff for 4 seconds, decreasing their healing received by 15%.'

Claw is not redundant, but gives us a chance to debuff with both Major and Minor defile!

this is outdated information, Disease now apply Major Defile