Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

Chrlynsch

Aznox wrote: »

I'm all for quality of life / bugfixes (Tormentor set taunt on ww leap plz ZoS !) but after months refining a werewolf build i feel i'm wrecking anyone that isn't outplaying me in duel/BG.

I think we got into a sweet spot with werewolf being a powerful enough tool for someone showing dedication to it, but not overly powerful so that all the stamina builds include it and it gets eventually nerfed.

Curious to know your thoughs on this though.

Truthfully werewolf is strong and rightfully so in 1v1 situations.

A good player with a decent connection will never take extra damage from a howl of agony, unless facing more then one werewolf.

The more werewolves you have the less optimal they become. They have no external healing factor, synergy, and have very one dementional gameplay.

Many of the morphs of abilites are just horrible or broken adding to their linear identity.

When it comes to needs @Qbiken basically nailed it on the head.

Aznox

A bit off-topic since unrelated to mechanics, but yesterday i ended up on blobeso twitch stream, and while it was a pubstomp with 0 skill involved, i managed to showcase the killing potential of werewolves
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/233661430?t=03h47m11s

Datolite

So while I am definitely enjoying the BoB build in Cyrodiil, I've also tried it in BGs and realized that it's really missing some sustain without CP. The heals are great but you can only get a couple of them off before you're dry. Also with jabs being broken and all the lag, the damage output is kinda sub-par in human form. I was considering two variants of this build for BGs, tell me what you think.

Damage and heals:
5/1/1 heavy
2x Molag Kena
5x Shacklebreaker
5x Senche's bite
With a higher focus on mobility

OR

Tanky with WW burst
5/1/1 heavy
2x Molag Kena
5x Shacklebreaker
5x Pariah
With SnB back bar

Aznox

Shacklebreaker is in my opinion the best werewolf set when not running Pelinal.

Molag Kena works very well on werewolf when you are playing in a group with a healer, also increases burst heal but check Troll King for unlimited life sustain in solo.

Pariah is a good set but i think it is only outperfoming Fortified Brass when you are in execute range, so for PVP might take a look at the later. -edit : already wearing one crafted set, so Pariah it is.

Senche's bite is good on paper but having to dodge even when not being focused makes you waste some damage opportunity.

If you were running Medium armor before you will find that constitution passive helps a lot with magicka sustain and that heavy attack is more than enough for stamina sustain when in werewolf.

Qbiken

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

So while I am definitely enjoying the BoB build in Cyrodiil, I've also tried it in BGs and realized that it's really missing some sustain without CP. The heals are great but you can only get a couple of them off before you're dry. Also with jabs being broken and all the lag, the damage output is kinda sub-par in human form. I was considering two variants of this build for BGs, tell me what you think.

Damage and heals:
5/1/1 heavy
2x Molag Kena
5x Shacklebreaker
5x Senche's bite
With a higher focus on mobility

OR

Tanky with WW burst
5/1/1 heavy
2x Molag Kena
5x Shacklebreaker
5x Pariah
With SnB back bar

Sounds like some decent setups. Only tried the BoB setup in BattleGrounds and got the same impression as you did. That build works best in CP-environment. But for no-CP Shackle is a great choice.

Think someone did some tests regarding Pariah vs Fortified brass a few months ago (might be able to find the thread again). IF (big if here) I remember correctly, Pariah will outperform Fortified Brass once you fall below 50-60% HP, which isn´t very favourable as a werewolf. But since both Shackle and Fortified are crafted sets, Pariah is a decent option.

Something you can do as well if you don´t want to run Pariah is to swap out Molag Kena for Mighty Chudan and run with a damage set as you 2nd 5 piece set. I personally like Blooddrinker as a damage set. In WW-form you already have a lot of burst and with Blooddrinker you can put some really nasty pressure on your enemies. Another great set for no-CP is Wyrd Tree.

Datolite

Qbiken wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

So while I am definitely enjoying the BoB build in Cyrodiil, I've also tried it in BGs and realized that it's really missing some sustain without CP. The heals are great but you can only get a couple of them off before you're dry. Also with jabs being broken and all the lag, the damage output is kinda sub-par in human form. I was considering two variants of this build for BGs, tell me what you think.

Damage and heals:
5/1/1 heavy
2x Molag Kena
5x Shacklebreaker
5x Senche's bite
With a higher focus on mobility

OR

Tanky with WW burst
5/1/1 heavy
2x Molag Kena
5x Shacklebreaker
5x Pariah
With SnB back bar

Sounds like some decent setups. Only tried the BoB setup in BattleGrounds and got the same impression as you did. That build works best in CP-environment. But for no-CP Shackle is a great choice.

Think someone did some tests regarding Pariah vs Fortified brass a few months ago (might be able to find the thread again). IF (big if here) I remember correctly, Pariah will outperform Fortified Brass once you fall below 50-60% HP, which isn´t very favourable as a werewolf. But since both Shackle and Fortified are crafted sets, Pariah is a decent option.

Something you can do as well if you don´t want to run Pariah is to swap out Molag Kena for Mighty Chudan and run with a damage set as you 2nd 5 piece set. I personally like Blooddrinker as a damage set. In WW-form you already have a lot of burst and with Blooddrinker you can put some really nasty pressure on your enemies. Another great set for no-CP is Wyrd Tree.

I think I know the thread you were taling about. I've been using Pariah on my magplar for a while and can at least vouch for its effectiveness against executes. And yeah it sort of becomes necessary due to the crafting thing.

Blood drinker I have a feeling would be very effective in WW form, but I feel like I need something that would work outside of it equally well. I like the idea of Senche because dodging would be your best for of defense if you went Shackle/Damage set. Though with Mighty Chudan this might change... something I'll consider for sure.

KharnTheUndying

Which morph of werewolf do you guys prefer for bgs and open world,berserker or pack leader?

Qbiken

KharnTheUndying wrote: »

Which morph of werewolf do you guys prefer for bgs and open world,berserker or pack leader?

At the moment I believe the Pack Leader Morph is bugged (the dogs doesn´t respawn after they die unless you go out of werewolf form and then transform again). It can never go wrong with the berserk morph in my opinion.

eXnihilO

Pack Leader moprh is really weak. Best part of it is the potential for enemies to mistakenly target the wolves, saving you some resources. Used to be better since the wolves counted as bodies for AOE cap damage reduction, but that is gone as of this patch. You could use that morph with the Hunt Leader and Morkuldin sets, but I'm not sure how viable it is! Sounds fun though. Also, "Mark of the Pariah: Outperforms all other [defensive] sets when less than ~68% HP."

Datolite

Trying to figure out if SnB is worth having on my WW ult bar. This raises some questions:

Are dual axes preferred because of their own bleed chance outside of WW?
Or is it cause they increase WW bleed?
Does weapon damage on the axes affect WW damage?
If so, wouldn't it be best to have 2 nirn axes?
Do weapon enchantments transfer to WW form?

I wish I could have the time to research and test all this myself but the only time I have to theorycraft is during downtime at work so any answers are always appreciated.

Chrlynsch

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

So while I am definitely enjoying the BoB build in Cyrodiil, I've also tried it in BGs and realized that it's really missing some sustain without CP. The heals are great but you can only get a couple of them off before you're dry. Also with jabs being broken and all the lag, the damage output is kinda sub-par in human form. I was considering two variants of this build for BGs, tell me what you think.

Damage and heals:
5/1/1 heavy
2x Molag Kena
5x Shacklebreaker
5x Senche's bite
With a higher focus on mobility

OR

Tanky with WW burst
5/1/1 heavy
2x Molag Kena
5x Shacklebreaker
5x Pariah
With SnB back bar

I jumped into a BG this morning after seeing this and recorded. Now I am not saying that these opponents were the best or the worst. As far as I could tell no one in there was a premade team. I just wanted to showcase some of the sustain tricks like light attack oriented dps and heavy attacking off balance opponents.

Beast of Bruma build in no CP BG. Enjoy!


https://youtu.be/2jZcJ332Gx4

Datolite

Chrlynsch wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

So while I am definitely enjoying the BoB build in Cyrodiil, I've also tried it in BGs and realized that it's really missing some sustain without CP. The heals are great but you can only get a couple of them off before you're dry. Also with jabs being broken and all the lag, the damage output is kinda sub-par in human form. I was considering two variants of this build for BGs, tell me what you think.

Damage and heals:
5/1/1 heavy
2x Molag Kena
5x Shacklebreaker
5x Senche's bite
With a higher focus on mobility

OR

Tanky with WW burst
5/1/1 heavy
2x Molag Kena
5x Shacklebreaker
5x Pariah
With SnB back bar

I jumped into a BG this morning after seeing this and recorded. Now I am not saying that these opponents were the best or the worst. As far as I could tell no one in there was a premade team. I just wanted to showcase some of the sustain tricks like light attack oriented dps and heavy attacking off balance opponents.

Beast of Bruma build in no CP BG. Enjoy!

That's pretty impressive, and I definitely am starting to see the pattern in your rotation/attacks. The problem is not WW form however. It's the human form that is underperforming in BGs. Or maybe I just suck.

Aznox

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Trying to figure out if SnB is worth having on my WW ult bar. This raises some questions:

Are dual axes preferred because of their own bleed chance outside of WW?
Or is it cause they increase WW bleed?
Does weapon damage on the axes affect WW damage?
If so, wouldn't it be best to have 2 nirn axes?
Do weapon enchantments transfer to WW form?

I wish I could have the time to research and test all this myself but the only time I have to theorycraft is during downtime at work so any answers are always appreciated.

You can put WW on dual wield bar for more damage, or on shield bar for more durability.

Pro for shield bar :
- Shield armor stays in WW
- Shield enchant stays in WW (sweet tri-stat)
- Shield trait stays in WW (impen all the way!)
Con for shield bar :
- Only one weapon enchant so need infused berserker on main hand

Pro for dual wield bar :
- Can run infused berserker off hand
- Can run nirn with another enchant main hand

Weapon passives do not carry over to Werewolf form.
I used to slot WW on my shield bar, but now i slot it on my dual wield bar.

Aznox

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Beast of Bruma build in no CP BG. Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/2jZcJ332Gx4

Nice footage ! We should team up for some BG sometimes.

On a similar note, the streamer i was watching today made a stop to a well known dueling ground today, so i started my game and went to perform some werewolf promotion.

Here you can see my duel build from his perspective
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/234006397?t=03h05m30s

Chrlynsch

Aznox wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Beast of Bruma build in no CP BG. Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/2jZcJ332Gx4

Nice footage ! We should team up for some BG sometimes.

On a similar note, the streamer i was watching today made a stop to a well known dueling ground today, so i started my game and went to perform some werewolf promotion.

Here you can see my duel build from his perspective
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/234006397?t=03h05m30s

I am on NA. Looks like the werewolf promo went very well. Lol

Datolite

Aznox wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Trying to figure out if SnB is worth having on my WW ult bar. This raises some questions:

Are dual axes preferred because of their own bleed chance outside of WW?
Or is it cause they increase WW bleed?
Does weapon damage on the axes affect WW damage?
If so, wouldn't it be best to have 2 nirn axes?
Do weapon enchantments transfer to WW form?

I wish I could have the time to research and test all this myself but the only time I have to theorycraft is during downtime at work so any answers are always appreciated.

You can put WW on dual wield bar for more damage, or on shield bar for more durability.

Pro for shield bar :
- Shield armor stays in WW
- Shield enchant stays in WW (sweet tri-stat)
- Shield trait stays in WW (impen all the way!)
Con for shield bar :
- Only one weapon enchant so need infused berserker on main hand

Pro for dual wield bar :
- Can run infused berserker off hand
- Can run nirn with another enchant main hand

Weapon passives do not carry over to Werewolf form.
I used to slot WW on my shield bar, but now i slot it on my dual wield bar.

Thanks that really clears things up. I might consider the SnB if I went Chudan/Senche/Shackle to give it more tankiness but I think I'll stick with DW for now.

Waffennacht

Was using

Impregnable
Medium brass
TK

Then I found a WW bug

Not exactly what happens but you get kicked out of WW form but it says you're in form, so it won't let you barswap until you do an ult dump

Aznox

Waffennacht wrote: »

Not exactly what happens but you get kicked out of WW form but it says you're in form, so it won't let you barswap until you do an ult dump

They fixed this bug on monday for PC

Waffennacht

Aznox wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Not exactly what happens but you get kicked out of WW form but it says you're in form, so it won't let you barswap until you do an ult dump

They fixed this bug on monday for PC

Ah, still live and well for console

Ritter

I saw Leki's mentioned and I like that set a lot, but has anyone tried it? It's hard to justify in my mind since it impacts Vigor and Claws of X... but It has much better 1-4 bonuses than Bastion of the Heartland, which I also like for WW. Leki's is Medium with Robust rings whereas BoE is Heavy with only Healthy rings. I could see some builds featuring either, I'm just not sure we can afford a 25% damage reduction on Claws, but maybe it's not as bad as it seems on paper. I'm currently using a 5 medium/2 heavy build for BG:

2x Chudan
5x Truth
5x Automaton

The burst potential with this setup is insane and Auto buffs everything other than the disease Claw DOT... it's very strong. I use blue stam/HP food to keep my HP high enough to take advantage of the nearly capped resistances in WW form. The build feels really strong.

Datolite

Ritter wrote: »

I'm currently using a 5 medium/2 heavy build for BG:

2x Chudan
5x Truth
5x Automaton

The burst potential with this setup is insane and Auto buffs everything other than the disease Claw DOT... it's very strong. I use blue stam/HP food to keep my HP high enough to take advantage of the nearly capped resistances in WW form. The build feels really strong.

How do you stay alive?

Waffennacht

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Ritter wrote: »

I'm currently using a 5 medium/2 heavy build for BG:

2x Chudan
5x Truth
5x Automaton

The burst potential with this setup is insane and Auto buffs everything other than the disease Claw DOT... it's very strong. I use blue stam/HP food to keep my HP high enough to take advantage of the nearly capped resistances in WW form. The build feels really strong.

How do you stay alive?

That's the exact issue I have running these sets on a WW, the moment you get 2 or 3 players on you, you're dead.

Much rather play with defensive sets and use the WW buffs to get to decent stats

KharnTheUndying

Need some advice from fellow wolfs i have orc stam sorc werewolf,im level 37 and running dw because of deadly cloak and blood craze and 2h with shacklebreaker and salvation but i seem to die really quickly in under 50 bgs,should i use other sets for better heals or switch dw for sword and board,any tips would be appreciated?

Waffennacht

KharnTheUndying wrote: »

Need some advice from fellow wolfs i have orc stam sorc werewolf,im level 37 and running dw because of deadly cloak and blood craze and 2h with shacklebreaker and salvation but i seem to die really quickly in under 50 bgs,should i use other sets for better heals or switch dw for sword and board,any tips would be appreciated?

If you're medium you have to utilize roll dodge and hots to live (i.e. vigor) imo medium is the less forgiving playstyle.

In CP WW (cuz gotta adjust for non CP) I run Impregnable + medium brass + TK so essentially heavy armor with medium Passives

I'm getting 70% crit damage Reduction and then have maxish resistance, in WW getting over max to deal with penetration. Running health + lingering health pot, TK, and steal health poisons

In WW form I have 3.6-3.9kish wpn DMG and 39k Stam so I don't hit as hard as other WW but still hit as hard as any normal DMG spec.

In normal form I'm a paperweight that can kill glass cannons only. I just build ult and go WW asap

Lexxypwns

eXnihilO wrote: »

Pack Leader moprh is really weak. Best part of it is the potential for enemies to mistakenly target the wolves, saving you some resources. Used to be better since the wolves counted as bodies for AOE cap damage reduction, but that is gone as of this patch. You could use that morph with the Hunt Leader and Morkuldin sets, but I'm not sure how viable it is! Sounds fun though. Also, "Mark of the Pariah: Outperforms all other [defensive] sets when less than ~68% HP."

What about pirate/iron blood?

Waffennacht wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Ritter wrote: »

I'm currently using a 5 medium/2 heavy build for BG:

2x Chudan
5x Truth
5x Automaton

The burst potential with this setup is insane and Auto buffs everything other than the disease Claw DOT... it's very strong. I use blue stam/HP food to keep my HP high enough to take advantage of the nearly capped resistances in WW form. The build feels really strong.

How do you stay alive?

That's the exact issue I have running these sets on a WW, the moment you get 2 or 3 players on you, you're dead.

Much rather play with defensive sets and use the WW buffs to get to decent stats

Oh buddy, can I duel your WW?

Waffennacht

Lexxypwns wrote: »

eXnihilO wrote: »

Pack Leader moprh is really weak. Best part of it is the potential for enemies to mistakenly target the wolves, saving you some resources. Used to be better since the wolves counted as bodies for AOE cap damage reduction, but that is gone as of this patch. You could use that morph with the Hunt Leader and Morkuldin sets, but I'm not sure how viable it is! Sounds fun though. Also, "Mark of the Pariah: Outperforms all other [defensive] sets when less than ~68% HP."

What about pirate/iron blood?

Waffennacht wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Ritter wrote: »

I'm currently using a 5 medium/2 heavy build for BG:

2x Chudan
5x Truth
5x Automaton

The burst potential with this setup is insane and Auto buffs everything other than the disease Claw DOT... it's very strong. I use blue stam/HP food to keep my HP high enough to take advantage of the nearly capped resistances in WW form. The build feels really strong.

How do you stay alive?

That's the exact issue I have running these sets on a WW, the moment you get 2 or 3 players on you, you're dead.

Much rather play with defensive sets and use the WW buffs to get to decent stats

Oh buddy, can I duel your WW?

@Lexxypwns I suppose, lol, I don't really duel unless I'm testing stuff anymore. But absolutely, I don't mind letting you beat me up a few times

Qbiken

Waffennacht wrote: »

KharnTheUndying wrote: »

Need some advice from fellow wolfs i have orc stam sorc werewolf,im level 37 and running dw because of deadly cloak and blood craze and 2h with shacklebreaker and salvation but i seem to die really quickly in under 50 bgs,should i use other sets for better heals or switch dw for sword and board,any tips would be appreciated?

If you're medium you have to utilize roll dodge and hots to live (i.e. vigor) imo medium is the less forgiving playstyle.

In CP WW (cuz gotta adjust for non CP) I run Impregnable + medium brass + TK so essentially heavy armor with medium Passives

I'm getting 70% crit damage Reduction and then have maxish resistance, in WW getting over max to deal with penetration. Running health + lingering health pot, TK, and steal health poisons

In WW form I have 3.6-3.9kish wpn DMG and 39k Stam so I don't hit as hard as other WW but still hit as hard as any normal DMG spec.

In normal form I'm a paperweight that can kill glass cannons only. I just build ult and go WW asap

@Waffennacht

Your setup with Brass + Impregnable is really viable this patch. Pre-DB that setup would´ve lacked a lot of sustain. But since heavy-attack on off-balanced enemies + Pursuit Passive synergies so well you can build more defensively (or offensively for that matter).

And your weapon-damage is a little low (that I can agree with), but only time I feel crazy high weapon-damage is useful is when you run with Pelinial´s (because who doesn´t like 15k crit-heals am I right ^^). Your light attacks (which should be your main DPS tool as a werewolf), bleed-damage and heal-debuff from Claws of Anguish is surprisingly often enough to kill the majority of the players in this game when it comes to 1v1 encounters. But as you said in your earlier comment, once you 1v2-3 against people who knows what they´re doing, you'll be free AP.

@Lexxypwns
Ironblood is a fund set to play around with. Combine it with some Essence of Speed (Expedition + HP-regen) pots and you basically neglect the movement speed-reduction from Ironblood. And you look really cool in WW-form when Ironblood procs ^^

RGvolterra

Afternoon mates ,

How are you all ? Guys like most of you I’m that passionate about WW and therefore I’ve been playing eso since day one though most of us agree to the fact that the WW skill tree needs a overhaul in order to meet all the improvements brought towards all the other classes in the game. When one considers playing as a WW ones finds very hard to adapt and address all the challenges that they constantly face in the battlefield. Vampirism has proved to be the most seek world class due to its useful and powerful passives ... yet , I love playing as a WW and will carry on playing
Mates after all that discussion about finding the right balance to make the WW more playable in PvP scenario , I’d like to know if any of you have already tried Dreugh king slayer paired with Pelinals... I’ve just thought of adjusting one of my wolf characters to these 2 sets. Any hint ?

Aznox

RGvolterra wrote: »

Afternoon mates ,

How are you all ? Guys like most of you I’m that passionate about WW and therefore I’ve been playing eso since day one though most of us agree to the fact that the WW skill tree needs a overhaul in order to meet all the improvements brought towards all the other classes in the game. When one considers playing as a WW ones finds very hard to adapt and address all the challenges that they constantly face in the battlefield. Vampirism has proved to be the most seek world class due to its useful and powerful passives ... yet , I love playing as a WW and will carry on playing
Mates after all that discussion about finding the right balance to make the WW more playable in PvP scenario , I’d like to know if any of you have already tried Dreugh king slayer paired with Pelinals... I’ve just thought of adjusting one of my wolf characters to these 2 sets. Any hint ?

I'm sorry, i'm going to be a bit harsh, forgive me.

You are asking for werewolf buff in PVP, modifications to the skill line, etc...

and yet you didn't even read the skills description, otherwise you would have surely noticed Dreugh King is useless for Werewolf because we have easy 100% uptime of Major Brutality

Werewolf is in a very good place for PVP at the moment, and many people in this topic will be happy to help you enjoy it to its fullest.

Chrlynsch

RGvolterra wrote: »

Afternoon mates ,

How are you all ? Guys like most of you I’m that passionate about WW and therefore I’ve been playing eso since day one though most of us agree to the fact that the WW skill tree needs a overhaul in order to meet all the improvements brought towards all the other classes in the game. When one considers playing as a WW ones finds very hard to adapt and address all the challenges that they constantly face in the battlefield. Vampirism has proved to be the most seek world class due to its useful and powerful passives ... yet , I love playing as a WW and will carry on playing
Mates after all that discussion about finding the right balance to make the WW more playable in PvP scenario , I’d like to know if any of you have already tried Dreugh king slayer paired with Pelinals... I’ve just thought of adjusting one of my wolf characters to these 2 sets. Any hint ?

When werewolves first got their extra skills Dreugh king was useful because Rousing Roar granted major brutality for 5 seconds... it was since buffed to grant 23 seconds fully buffed. In my opinion, a werewolf that uses Pelinal's is better off stacking prismatic glyphs, if you do this with Dreugh King you find yourself with a very dissapointing stamina pool as DK only comes in healthy. Now if the speed buff was permanent you might find it slightly more viable.