Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

Ritter

@Aznox I've fallen prey to the Fake News. Sorry.

Chrlynsch

Aznox wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Good points with on claws morphs, remember that claws is disease damage so there is a chance to proc Major Defile. Not a large one, but still a chance.

That would be 1 or 3% (not sure of the category applied) to apply Major Defile for 4 seconds, every time disease damage is applied.

4x10/33 or 4x10/100 (not taking overlap into account but that's negligible)

so statistically you would have 1.2sec or 0.4sec of Major Defile per 10sec of Claws of Life.
so 12% or 4% (i think it's 4%) uptime versus 100% uptime for Claws of Anguish.

Don't count on it

5% for initial hit as it is an aoe, and then 3% for the dot afterward. Still don't count on it It is nice as when it does proc as you finally affect troll king users.

Aznox

Initial hit is physical damage so no chance to proc defile, but then yes if it's considered as a single-target DoT it's 3% (1% is for AoE DoT)

Datolite

Just curious but how does imperial templar rank for a BoB type WW build? Max health and stam. How useful is the Red Diamond passive?

Qbiken

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Just curious but how does imperial templar rank for a BoB type WW build? Max health and stam. How useful is the Red Diamond passive?

My main-werewolf is and Imperial Stamplar (using the BoB build on that one as well). The extra HP + Stamina is really nice. The Red Diamond passive is reduced by Battle-spirit, so the HP gain isn´t much useful. The extra HP is useful however and makes it possible to use Dubious drink or even the Lava-Foot Stomp food, which will give me more stamina regen compared to someone using Tri-stat food.

Datolite

Qbiken wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Just curious but how does imperial templar rank for a BoB type WW build? Max health and stam. How useful is the Red Diamond passive?

My main-werewolf is and Imperial Stamplar (using the BoB build on that one as well). The extra HP + Stamina is really nice. The Red Diamond passive is reduced by Battle-spirit, so the HP gain isn´t much useful. The extra HP is useful however and makes it possible to use Dubious drink or even the Lava-Foot Stomp food, which will give me more stamina regen compared to someone using Tri-stat food.

That's really helpful thanks. I'm considering moving my gear onto my imperial main and switching from mag to stamplar (already have WW maxed) instead of having to do the undaunted grind again on my orcplar lol.

One more question. Does weapon damage (and nirnhoned) scale the damage of my WW attacks? So if I switched to axe and shield, would my WW attacks suffer for it?

Qbiken

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Just curious but how does imperial templar rank for a BoB type WW build? Max health and stam. How useful is the Red Diamond passive?

My main-werewolf is and Imperial Stamplar (using the BoB build on that one as well). The extra HP + Stamina is really nice. The Red Diamond passive is reduced by Battle-spirit, so the HP gain isn´t much useful. The extra HP is useful however and makes it possible to use Dubious drink or even the Lava-Foot Stomp food, which will give me more stamina regen compared to someone using Tri-stat food.

That's really helpful thanks. I'm considering moving my gear onto my imperial main and switching from mag to stamplar (already have WW maxed) instead of having to do the undaunted grind again on my orcplar lol.

One more question. Does weapon damage (and nirnhoned) scale the damage of my WW attacks? So if I switched to axe and shield, would my WW attacks suffer for it?

Things that carries over into WW-form:
* Racial passives
* Armor passives
* Class passives
* Enchants
* Poisons (Will negate the enchantments you use but they can proc in WW-form)
* Weapon traits

Things that doesn´t carries over into WW-form:
* Weapon-passives
* Not sure if there´re more things that doesn´t carries over.

The reason you mainly want to use dual-wield on a werewolf is because you can utilize two enchants with your weapons. A nirnhoned axe (or any 1-handed weapon) on the main-hand will give you more weapon-damage than a "non-nirnhoned" weapon, and thereby increasing your damage with your werewolf abilities. But the difference between using 1h&S vs DW once in WW-form isn´t huge

Datolite

So I would basically be missing out on off-hand enchant is all. Cool, good to know!

By the way, is there a consensus yet about the Automaton set? Some people are saying it pairs well with WW and some are not. I'm guessing "weapon damage abilities" includes light/heavy atttacks so it should be fine right?

Aznox

Qbiken wrote: »

The reason you mainly want to use dual-wield on a werewolf is because you can utilize two enchants with your weapons. A nirnhoned axe (or any 1-handed weapon) on the main-hand will give you more weapon-damage than a "non-nirnhoned" weapon, and thereby increasing your damage with your werewolf abilities. But the difference between using 1h&S vs DW once in WW-form isn´t huge

Even more specifically, its the combination of Nirnhoned Main-Hand (with whatever enchant you fancy) and Infused Berseker enchant (on Off-Hand) that gives significantly higher weapon damage to dual wield ww than to to 1H&S ww.

Datolite

Aznox wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

The reason you mainly want to use dual-wield on a werewolf is because you can utilize two enchants with your weapons. A nirnhoned axe (or any 1-handed weapon) on the main-hand will give you more weapon-damage than a "non-nirnhoned" weapon, and thereby increasing your damage with your werewolf abilities. But the difference between using 1h&S vs DW once in WW-form isn´t huge

Even more specifically, its the combination of Nirnhoned Main-Hand (with whatever enchant you fancy) and Infused Berseker enchant (on Off-Hand) that gives significantly higher weapon damage to dual wield ww than to to 1H&S ww.

So having a nirn axe with weapon damage (berserk?) glyph wouldn't be as effective because of the lack of infused (longer cooldown etc.)

I am really considering shield to help with survival and stats but just weighing my options. Which would you suggest for open world? What about BGs?

Qbiken

Aznox wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

The reason you mainly want to use dual-wield on a werewolf is because you can utilize two enchants with your weapons. A nirnhoned axe (or any 1-handed weapon) on the main-hand will give you more weapon-damage than a "non-nirnhoned" weapon, and thereby increasing your damage with your werewolf abilities. But the difference between using 1h&S vs DW once in WW-form isn´t huge

Even more specifically, its the combination of Nirnhoned Main-Hand (with whatever enchant you fancy) and Infused Berseker enchant (on Off-Hand) that gives significantly higher weapon damage to dual wield ww than to to 1H&S ww.

@Aznox You actually get more damage output when using the berserker enchant on the nirnhoned bar as a werewolf. The reasoning behind this is that the infused trait from your off-hand will lower the cooldown of your main-hand (don´t ask me why this is the case), and since your main-hand enchant will have higher uptime than the off-hand enchant, you´ll have higher uptime of the berserk enchant when using it on the main-hand.

I´ve tested with the berserk enchant on both off-hand and main-hand. With the berserk enchant on infused off-hand, I get a higher maximum weapon-damage boost, but the uptime while using it on nirnhoned main-hand will give me a overall higher weapon damage.

Aznox

Qbiken wrote: »

the infused trait from your off-hand will lower the cooldown of your main-hand

This is true.

your main-hand enchant will have higher uptime than the off-hand enchant, you´ll have higher uptime of the berserk enchant when using it on the main-hand.

its a bit more complicated than that, i have yet to fully study the pattern for enchant application from dual wield attack, but here is a report of me doing 95+% uptime from off-hand berserker. (last light attack at second 37)



The general rule seems to be that any given light attack will try to proc one of your two enchants, regardless of if it is on cooldown or not, so if you are unlucky you can have 3 light attacks in a row trying to proc the same enchant and so only get your second enchant proc on your 4th light attack.

will study further.

Qbiken

Aznox wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

the infused trait from your off-hand will lower the cooldown of your main-hand

This is true.

your main-hand enchant will have higher uptime than the off-hand enchant, you´ll have higher uptime of the berserk enchant when using it on the main-hand.

its a bit more complicated than that, i have yet to fully study the pattern for enchant application from dual wield attack, but here is a report of me doing 95+% uptime from off-hand berserker. (last light attack at second 37)



The general rule seems to be that any given light attack will try to proc one of your two enchants, regardless of if it is on cooldown or not, so if you are unlucky you can have 3 light attacks in a row trying to proc the same enchant and so only get your second enchant proc on your 4th light attack.

will study further.

I base my claims mostly from DPS parses from non-werewolf characters and found out that in longer fights berserker on main-hand will be more beneficial. But would be interesting to see how often the other enchant on your main-hand is active in comparison.

LegendaryMage

If you're dual wielding, you can go 2nd weapon as powered or alternatively precise if you want a small mix of both higher spell crit and a bit of extra damage.

Veo

@Aznox did you try out 2x Troll King 5x Bonepirate and 5x Shackle already (5 1 1 Heavy)?
I think Bonepirate might be superior to automaton.

Qbiken

Veo wrote: »

@Aznox did you try out 2x Troll King 5x Bonepirate and 5x Shackle already (5 1 1 Heavy)?
I think Bonepirate might be superior to automaton.

Bone-pirate will give you higher stamina regen. But in terms of damage, automaton will outperform bone-pirate. And since Dragon-Bones patch Bone-Pirate isn´t really needed for sustain. Heavy attacks in WW-form is enough to sustain and manage your stamina, unless you spam all your werewolf skills (which you shouldn't do in my opinion)

Edit:
Unless you play a "tank-werewolf" I don´t think two sustain sets are necessary for a werewolf. For no-CP I could consider using Bone-pirate + Shacklebreaker however.

Ritter

[Prologue: this could be the beginning of the end. If anything could get WW nerfed, it would be a Proc-Wolf build, haha!]

So... has anyone tested Plague Slinger for small-scale? I realize that damage isn't something we lack, but 20k proc damage is enough to get my attention and the 2-4 piece bonuses seems especially ideal for PvP Werewolf shenanigans. I often see crit bonus as ZOS's way of giving us something toned down, without really giving us something, so I get pumped when I see Weapon Damage+Health+Weapon Damage on top of one of the highest proc damage amounts. Yes, please!

Ok, now is where I might sound suspect, but hear me out. I've been wanting to pair it with... Morkuldin

Again, the 2-4 bonuses are entirely welcomed on the Wolf with nothing 'wasted' on crit. I love a good crit as well as the next man, but WW is always going to be low crit and PvP=Impen, Transmutation, etc. so I'd just as well have something that has a more definite impact on combat.

And the 5pc... the damage over time is really strong (50k+), it has the potential for 100% uptime, and procs on something all good Wolves are doing constantly anyways: light and heavy attacks.

The question is: how do we make the most of it? 7x Heavy with Kena? Outright tank-wolf? I can't not try it, so help me figure out how to optimize!

Bonus: I hear that proc'ing Morkuldin on a NB causes them to be unable to stealth due to being tracked and smacked with the blade... please be a thing still, haha!

Datolite

Ritter wrote: »

[Prologue: this could be the beginning of the end. If anything could get WW nerfed, it would be a Proc-Wolf build, haha!]

Bonus: I hear that proc'ing Morkuldin on a NB causes them to be unable to stealth due to being tracked and smacked with the blade... please be a thing still, haha!

This could be the end indeed. In the distance, the faint sound of a thousand screaming nightblades.

Music.

Lughlongarm

Another set you can consider to pair with shacklebreaker is black rose. black rose is exactly the same as shacklebreaker for heavy armor builds only ~10% weaker. But you can get black rose in robust jewelry and also go with tri-stats food(which you can't do with bone pirate).

Chrlynsch

Ritter wrote: »

[Prologue: this could be the beginning of the end. If anything could get WW nerfed, it would be a Proc-Wolf build, haha!]

So... has anyone tested Plague Slinger for small-scale? I realize that damage isn't something we lack, but 20k proc damage is enough to get my attention and the 2-4 piece bonuses seems especially ideal for PvP Werewolf shenanigans. I often see crit bonus as ZOS's way of giving us something toned down, without really giving us something, so I get pumped when I see Weapon Damage+Health+Weapon Damage on top of one of the highest proc damage amounts. Yes, please!

Ok, now is where I might sound suspect, but hear me out. I've been wanting to pair it with... Morkuldin

Again, the 2-4 bonuses are entirely welcomed on the Wolf with nothing 'wasted' on crit. I love a good crit as well as the next man, but WW is always going to be low crit and PvP=Impen, Transmutation, etc. so I'd just as well have something that has a more definite impact on combat.

And the 5pc... the damage over time is really strong (50k+), it has the potential for 100% uptime, and procs on something all good Wolves are doing constantly anyways: light and heavy attacks.

The question is: how do we make the most of it? 7x Heavy with Kena? Outright tank-wolf? I can't not try it, so help me figure out how to optimize!

Bonus: I hear that proc'ing Morkuldin on a NB causes them to be unable to stealth due to being tracked and smacked with the blade... please be a thing still, haha!

Don't settle for low crit as a heavy armor werewolf. Wear Mechanical Acuity and taste the crit!

That bird set does the same thing and pulls NB out of stealth.

Chrlynsch

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Another set you can consider to pair with shacklebreaker is black rose. black rose is exactly the same as shacklebreaker for heavy armor builds only ~10% weaker. But you can get black rose in robust jewelry and also go with tri-stats food(which you can't do with bone pirate).

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Another set you can consider to pair with shacklebreaker is black rose. black rose is exactly the same as shacklebreaker for heavy armor builds only ~10% weaker. But you can get black rose in robust jewelry and also go with tri-stats food(which you can't do with bone pirate).

Black rose robust? Never seen them, I thought they only came in healthy.

Aznox

LegendaryMage wrote: »

If you're dual wielding, you can go 2nd weapon as powered or alternatively precise if you want a small mix of both higher spell crit and a bit of extra damage.

Pretty sure Infused Berserker will buff both you healing and damage for a greater combined amount, would be interesting to do the math to prove it though.

Aznox

Veo wrote: »

@Aznox did you try out 2x Troll King 5x Bonepirate and 5x Shackle already (5 1 1 Heavy)?
I think Bonepirate might be superior to automaton.

Bonepirate is a great set if you need the stamina sustain, i don't.

My health sustain comes from magicka heal, Troll King and potions.

My sustained damage output comes from light attacks and bleed, and these scale better from weapon damage than from max stamina.

I only need stamina for roll dodge, fear, sprint, claws, and burst combo with howl.
This stamina sustain requirement is covered by heavy attacking off-balance opponents.

In fact was even considering dropping Dubious Camoran for Tri-stat food.

Aznox

Ritter wrote: »

[Prologue: this could be the beginning of the end. If anything could get WW nerfed, it would be a Proc-Wolf build, haha!]

By all mean try it, but nothing in these proc sets have a synergy in any way with the strengths of the werewolf kit that are :
- Amplified Max stamina
- Amplified Weapon Damage
- Amplified Light attacks damage through the bleed effect
- Amplified Stamina return on heavy attacks
- Strong toolkit packed with utility (fear, major defile, major brutality, off-balance, stun, gap-closer)

The only proc set i would recommend on Werewolf is Zaan because it is currently a bit overturned and it matches the play-style.

Lughlongarm

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Another set you can consider to pair with shacklebreaker is black rose. black rose is exactly the same as shacklebreaker for heavy armor builds only ~10% weaker. But you can get black rose in robust jewelry and also go with tri-stats food(which you can't do with bone pirate).

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Another set you can consider to pair with shacklebreaker is black rose. black rose is exactly the same as shacklebreaker for heavy armor builds only ~10% weaker. But you can get black rose in robust jewelry and also go with tri-stats food(which you can't do with bone pirate).

Black rose robust? Never seen them, I thought they only came in healthy.

Not 100% sure, I don't have it myself. But this editor which seems to be very detailed and updated claims you can find black rose jewelry in healthy/robust/arcane.

Aznox

Black Rose was nerfed too hard and it does not bring enough sustain to the table to be worth it.

Also it is would be counterproductive to drop 5/1/1 and go 7/0/0 to maximize Constitution.

Edit : As long as we are not doing math, please read as "my opinion".

Lughlongarm

Aznox wrote: »

Black Rose was nerfed too hard and it does not bring enough sustain to the table to be worth it.

Also it is would be counterproductive to drop 5/1/1 and go 7/0/0 to maximize Constitution.

Edit : As long as we are not doing math, please read as "my opinion".

Shacklebreaker gives 4k max stats/ 258 spell/weapon damage 258 magi/stam regen - Many claim that this set is Bis for WW

Black rose - gives 3.4k max stats 308 spell/weapon damage 189 magi/stam regen(if you go 5-1-1, more if you 6-1-0 or 7-0-0).

So black rose compared to Shacklebreaker is 600 max stat less 50 spell/weapon damage more, 70 magi/stam regen less.

It's not as good as Shacklebreaker but it gices like 90% of it's value. How can you claim one is Bis and the other is trash?
For pure stamina builds it doesn't worth it, but for WW builds you make use of all the bonuses.

This option is more offensive than most pelinal variations and you can still get like 15k WW heals with this setup with tri-stat food and weapon damage glyph.

If you could really get it's jewelry in robust, it could be a great option(at-least worth a try).

Ritter

@Lughlongarm @Chrlynsch

Black Rose definitely comes in Robust, and I think all of the Tel Var sets have all trait options available.

Datolite

Aznox wrote: »

Black Rose was nerfed too hard and it does not bring enough sustain to the table to be worth it.

Also it is would be counterproductive to drop 5/1/1 and go 7/0/0 to maximize Constitution.

Edit : As long as we are not doing math, please read as "my opinion".

I came to the same conclusion just recently, though with one caveat: Black Rose is not crafted. I can see it being a fall-back set for a very tanky build if he already had his 5 crafted slots filled, but otherwise I would choose Shackle.

Lughlongarm

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Black Rose was nerfed too hard and it does not bring enough sustain to the table to be worth it.

Also it is would be counterproductive to drop 5/1/1 and go 7/0/0 to maximize Constitution.

Edit : As long as we are not doing math, please read as "my opinion".

I came to the same conclusion just recently, though with one caveat: Black Rose is not crafted. I can see it being a fall-back set for a very tanky build if he already had his 5 crafted slots filled, but otherwise I would choose Shackle.

OFC, Shackle is better than black rose always, my initial thought was to combine Shackle With Black Rose.