Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

Qbiken · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

RGvolterra wrote: »

Afternoon mates ,

How are you all ? Guys like most of you I’m that passionate about WW and therefore I’ve been playing eso since day one though most of us agree to the fact that the WW skill tree needs a overhaul in order to meet all the improvements brought towards all the other classes in the game. When one considers playing as a WW ones finds very hard to adapt and address all the challenges that they constantly face in the battlefield. Vampirism has proved to be the most seek world class due to its useful and powerful passives ... yet , I love playing as a WW and will carry on playing
Mates after all that discussion about finding the right balance to make the WW more playable in PvP scenario , I’d like to know if any of you have already tried Dreugh king slayer paired with Pelinals... I’ve just thought of adjusting one of my wolf characters to these 2 sets. Any hint ?

I'm sorry, i'm going to be a bit harsh, forgive me.

You are asking for werewolf buff in PVP, modifications to the skill line, etc...

and yet you didn't even read the skills description, otherwise you would have surely noticed Dreugh King is useless for Werewolf because we have easy 100% uptime of Major Brutality

Werewolf is in a very good place for PVP at the moment, and many people in this topic will be happy to help you enjoy it to its fullest.

@RGvolterra
I´ll have to agree with @Aznox here. Major Brutality is very easy to access from Rousing Roar. With the latest changes to off-balance Ferocious Roar is in big need of an overhaul (since Rousing Roar is a much more reliable source of off-balance).

Ritter · March 2018

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

How do you stay alive?

As cliche as it might sound, the best defense in BG is a good offense. If you're not efficiently removing threats, there's just not enough tankiness even available without CP to matter.

All my gear is Impen + tri-glpyhed and I run max HP+Stam for extra HP. Other than that, blocking is important. Dying a lot is just an expected part of BG life as a Werewolf, but I routinely have scores like 10-2-6 and the like.

Out of curiosity, I've tried 64 points into health and running straight tank gear in BG and I honestly don't survive any better because the enemy is just able to treat me like a DPS dummy at that point. Kill or be killed. Longer, sure... but my death is just as inevitable and I don't actually accomplish much.

Ritter · March 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

That's the exact issue I have running these sets on a WW, the moment you get 2 or 3 players on you, you're dead.

Much rather play with defensive sets and use the WW buffs to get to decent stats

To be fair, I'm not aware of any build or playstyle that is actually useful that can deal with being outnumbered 2 or 3-to-1, provided the players are of equal skill. I can 1v2 pretty easily with this setup in BG because it's mostly 'immo potion, jump in/fear/delete someone.' Your CC and kill pressure really help to even the odds.

I sit at 33k/30k resists with about 23k HP and 1800 recovery, as much Impen as I can get (outside of SnB), and very high burst and sustained damage. Can we really ask for much more?

The challenge of relying entirely on WW passives for damage stats is that they scale based on our base stats. You get at least +48% WD regardless of your build, but 48% of a little is still a little. I prefer the extra 12% WD medium offers you and focusing on WD so that the +60% I'm getting is substantial.

You can definitely run the Auto/Truth/Chudan setup in full heavy if you really wanted to, I just really prefer the Medium armor passives.

Datolite · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

That's the exact issue I have running these sets on a WW, the moment you get 2 or 3 players on you, you're dead.

Much rather play with defensive sets and use the WW buffs to get to decent stats

To be fair, I'm not aware of any build or playstyle that is actually useful that can deal with being outnumbered 2 or 3-to-1, provided the players are of equal skill. I can 1v2 pretty easily with this setup in BG because it's mostly 'immo potion, jump in/fear/delete someone.' Your CC and kill pressure really help to even the odds.

I sit at 33k/30k resists with about 23k HP and 1800 recovery, as much Impen as I can get (outside of SnB), and very high burst and sustained damage. Can we really ask for much more?

The challenge of relying entirely on WW passives for damage stats is that they scale based on our base stats. You get at least +48% WD regardless of your build, but 48% of a little is still a little. I prefer the extra 12% WD medium offers you and focusing on WD so that the +60% I'm getting is substantial.

You can definitely run the Auto/Truth/Chudan setup in full heavy if you really wanted to, I just really prefer the Medium armor passives.

Well, you've got me intrigued. Mind doing a breakdown of your gear and class/skills outside of WW form?

Would you consider this with Senche's Bite instead of Truth? (for more dmg in human form)

Also did you say you're full health build or hybrid?

Xvorg · March 2018

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Ritter wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

That's the exact issue I have running these sets on a WW, the moment you get 2 or 3 players on you, you're dead.

Much rather play with defensive sets and use the WW buffs to get to decent stats

To be fair, I'm not aware of any build or playstyle that is actually useful that can deal with being outnumbered 2 or 3-to-1, provided the players are of equal skill. I can 1v2 pretty easily with this setup in BG because it's mostly 'immo potion, jump in/fear/delete someone.' Your CC and kill pressure really help to even the odds.

I sit at 33k/30k resists with about 23k HP and 1800 recovery, as much Impen as I can get (outside of SnB), and very high burst and sustained damage. Can we really ask for much more?

The challenge of relying entirely on WW passives for damage stats is that they scale based on our base stats. You get at least +48% WD regardless of your build, but 48% of a little is still a little. I prefer the extra 12% WD medium offers you and focusing on WD so that the +60% I'm getting is substantial.

You can definitely run the Auto/Truth/Chudan setup in full heavy if you really wanted to, I just really prefer the Medium armor passives.

Well, you've got me intrigued. Mind doing a breakdown of your gear and class/skills outside of WW form?

Would you consider this with Senche's Bite instead of Truth? (for more dmg in human form)

Also did you say you're full health build or hybrid?

Why senche instead of Air? Air has a nice buff to spell dmg, that helps with the heal

Datolite · March 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Ritter wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

That's the exact issue I have running these sets on a WW, the moment you get 2 or 3 players on you, you're dead.

Much rather play with defensive sets and use the WW buffs to get to decent stats

To be fair, I'm not aware of any build or playstyle that is actually useful that can deal with being outnumbered 2 or 3-to-1, provided the players are of equal skill. I can 1v2 pretty easily with this setup in BG because it's mostly 'immo potion, jump in/fear/delete someone.' Your CC and kill pressure really help to even the odds.

I sit at 33k/30k resists with about 23k HP and 1800 recovery, as much Impen as I can get (outside of SnB), and very high burst and sustained damage. Can we really ask for much more?

The challenge of relying entirely on WW passives for damage stats is that they scale based on our base stats. You get at least +48% WD regardless of your build, but 48% of a little is still a little. I prefer the extra 12% WD medium offers you and focusing on WD so that the +60% I'm getting is substantial.

You can definitely run the Auto/Truth/Chudan setup in full heavy if you really wanted to, I just really prefer the Medium armor passives.

Well, you've got me intrigued. Mind doing a breakdown of your gear and class/skills outside of WW form?

Would you consider this with Senche's Bite instead of Truth? (for more dmg in human form)

Also did you say you're full health build or hybrid?

Why senche instead of Air? Air has a nice buff to spell dmg, that helps with the heal

That's tempting. Has anyone tested this set in WW form? Is 2m really that much or is it just a throwaway bonus?

RGvolterra · March 2018

Hello mates ,
Thanks for all of you who gently respond to my comment though Ie reckon might’ve been misunderstood. When I discussed a bit about my feelings and impressions towards the WW , I did it prompted by strong arguments based on other WW theory crafting authors however I did not mean to point out what direction the WW skill tree should’ve been taken. Yet , I believe that the WW skill tree should go through a redesign in order to make it as competitive as the Vampirism.Above all that , when I mentioned that i was considering pairing pelinal set with dreugh king slayer , I had wondered how efficient my WW healing would turn out to be due to the 5th buff of pelinals. Since some of you explained me that by pairing pelinal with Dreugh king slayer would be redundant due to the major brutality given by some of the WW abilities , I’m wondering what other set would be worth pairing it with since I would like to have a great heal but having a reliable source of damage.
In fact , I was already aware about those WW brutality given abilities however I was a bit lost on what set to pair with pelinal in order to have a great heal and a nice damage.
I’m open to suggestions and would be thanked if any of you could enlighten me that matter.
Cheers wolf mates

Ritter · March 2018

@datoliteb16_ESO - More than I can manage on my lunch break, but I'm happy to when I get home.

Here's a link to my original build, but I've since moved the backbar to SnB, also the WD doesn't even reflect the insane bonus we're getting from Auto: http://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=45822

Edit: we're less tanky in human form, but 5x Medium allows us to use Shuffle and we have a strong Vigor game. I also run Talons for AOE maim and quick cloak/dragon fire scales. The goal is to focus utility until WW is back up.

Ritter · March 2018

@Xvorg Air set has much worse 1-4 set bonuses for WW, sadly.

Datolite · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@datoliteb16_ESO - More than I can manage on my lunch break, but I'm happy to when I get home. Here's a link to my original build, but I've since moved the backbar to SnB, also the WD doesn't even reflect the insane bonus we're getting from Auto: http://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=45822

Edit: we're less tanky in human form, but 5x Medium allows us to use Shuffle and we have a strong Vigor game. I also run Talons for AOE maim and quick cloak/dragon fire scales. The goal is to focus utility until WW is back up.

Thanks! So I see how you're managing heals in human form, but aren't you running a bit low on mag while in WW? Are you using health regen pot?

Ritter · March 2018

@datoliteb16_ESO

I should probably be running tri-stat food for that reason, but in my mind the lower your HP pool, the less benefit there is to building to near-capped resistances and since my heal is much weaker than a Pelinal's build anyways, I just haven't invested much into it. I've been doing a lot of experimenting with food, so I'll run tri-stat again and see how it feels.

I use the Health/Stam/Immovability or standard tri-pots depending on the match.

On another note, I ran into a pretty strong wolf running Willow's Path and Troll King. Seems good. Forget what his third set was.

Sordidfairytale · March 2018

This thread is awesome. I am experimenting with Kena, Elegant, and Shacklebreaker on a 4 bar build. I hadn't considered Pelinal I should look into it.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=48500

Qbiken · March 2018

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

This thread is awesome. I am experimenting with Kena, Elegant, and Shacklebreaker on a 4 bar build. I hadn't considered Pelinal I should look into it.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=48500

@Sordidfairytale How is elegant? Haven´t tried it personally yet

Sordidfairytale · March 2018

I think I'm fooling myself that it works, but only because it also helps Overload. These other builds are pretty brutal and I'm thinking I'm too spread out.

Qbiken · March 2018

Small update:

Tried out 5 Shacklebreaker + 5 Automaton + 2 Trollking this weekend. For me it was the first time I´ve ever used Shacklebreaker. For some reason I´ve been sceptical about Shackle before (don´t ask me why). I used the build on a redguard stamsorc and played together with a friend using the same build (but he was playing a bosmer stamblade).

I must say this build has some really good damage output. The healing capacities with Trollking + Lingering HP pots + Shackle (Shackle giving some spelldamage which increase my heal in WW-form) is really nice. However, even when fighting 1-2vX (aka outnumbered) the need of a support that isn´t a werewolf becomes more mandatory. Healing-debuffs can cause some serious damage that Troll-king + Lingering pots simple can´t counter.

Skander · March 2018

Werewolf is so OP in a 1v1 or xv1 enviroment, people just don't know it yet

Chrlynsch · March 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Small update:

Tried out 5 Shacklebreaker + 5 Automaton + 2 Trollking this weekend. For me it was the first time I´ve ever used Shacklebreaker. For some reason I´ve been sceptical about Shackle before (don´t ask me why). I used the build on a redguard stamsorc and played together with a friend using the same build (but he was playing a bosmer stamblade).

I must say this build has some really good damage output. The healing capacities with Trollking + Lingering HP pots + Shackle (Shackle giving some spelldamage which increase my heal in WW-form) is really nice. However, even when fighting 1-2vX (aka outnumbered) the need of a support that isn´t a werewolf becomes more mandatory. Healing-debuffs can cause some serious damage that Troll-king + Lingering pots simple can´t counter.

I run into the same issue on any of my wolves I don't have in Pelinal's. The big draw to Pelinal's is how much overheal it can provide that even when effected with 40% defile it can make your heal can still be relevant. Maybe someday with jewelry crafting we could pair up Pelinal's and Shackle.

Aznox · March 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Tried out 5 Shacklebreaker + 5 Automaton + 2 Trollking this weekend.

Ahaha, told you

As i continue to progress the number of people that beat me in duel is getting low enough that i remember their names.

In pug battleground against no premade, the domination is insane, i can win any 1v1 fight vs experienced player, many 1v2 against average players and most 1v3 vs new players (CP500-),

In battleground against a good premade, it takes some skill to never run out of magicka or stamina when you receive the inevitable focus if you are the highest threat in your team (which you will be unless there's a glasscanon stamblade with you). The key is to master the use of the fear, the heavy attack resource return, line of sight, and target prioritization.

I don't think i am that much of a good player yet, and if i can keep progressing it might start getting out of hand.
If more players start displaying the capabilities of werewolf, we will probably start to hear calls for nerf in the next few months.

At the moment i think i am still getting a bit more carried by my build than by my skill, so i'm a bit hesitant to share all the details of it, but you are on the way to find out by yourself

Qbiken · March 2018

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Small update:

Tried out 5 Shacklebreaker + 5 Automaton + 2 Trollking this weekend. For me it was the first time I´ve ever used Shacklebreaker. For some reason I´ve been sceptical about Shackle before (don´t ask me why). I used the build on a redguard stamsorc and played together with a friend using the same build (but he was playing a bosmer stamblade).

I must say this build has some really good damage output. The healing capacities with Trollking + Lingering HP pots + Shackle (Shackle giving some spelldamage which increase my heal in WW-form) is really nice. However, even when fighting 1-2vX (aka outnumbered) the need of a support that isn´t a werewolf becomes more mandatory. Healing-debuffs can cause some serious damage that Troll-king + Lingering pots simple can´t counter.

I run into the same issue on any of my wolves I don't have in Pelinal's. The big draw to Pelinal's is how much overheal it can provide that even when effected with 40% defile it can make your heal can still be relevant. Maybe someday with jewelry crafting we could pair up Pelinal's and Shackle.

With the setup I mentioned I can fully buffed (With Major Vitality from Linger Pots)get Hircine´s Rage crit for somewhere around 9-11k, compared to the Pelinial´s setup where it will reach 16-17k crit heals. When comparing "The Beast of Bruma" and "The Norwegian Hound" (That´s what I call the Shackle + Auto + Trollking build), "The Norwegian Hound" is more userfriendly than "BoB". Especially if you´re a little inexperienced with playing werewolf.

But if jewel-crafting becomes a thing (slightly against it personally) theorycrafting will be taken to a new level with werewolf. Pairing Pelinial´s with sets like Shacklebreaker, Kvatch Gladiator, Clever Alchemist, Mechanical Acuity (just to name a few) can be used to create some really powerful builds for werewolfs.

Qbiken · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Tried out 5 Shacklebreaker + 5 Automaton + 2 Trollking this weekend.

Ahaha, told you

As i continue to progress the number of people that beat me in duel is getting low enough that i remember their names.

In pug battleground against no premade, the domination is insane, i can win any 1v1 fight vs experienced player, many 1v2 against average players and most 1v3 vs new players (CP500-),

In battleground against a good premade, it takes some skill to never run out of magicka or stamina when you receive the inevitable focus if you are the highest threat in your team (which you will be unless there's a glasscanon stamblade with you). The key is to master the use of the fear, the heavy attack resource return, line of sight, and target prioritization.

I don't think i am that much of a good player yet, and if i can keep progressing it might start getting out of hand.
If more players start displaying the capabilities of werewolf, we will probably start to hear calls for nerf in the next few months.

At the moment i think i am still getting a bit more carried by my build than by my skill, so i'm a bit hesitant to share all the details of it, but you are on the way to find out by yourself

@Aznox

After you mentioned those sets together I got too curious not to test it. My friend who haven´t played werewolf since a very long time also liked the build.
I think the learning curve for werewolf is kind of big, hence the reason so few people play it. And I don´t see the issue with being "carried by gear" in this case, since werewolf is all about what gear you use (the skills in general isn´t that special when you think about it).

And I don´t think werewolf is too strong, but I agree more and more with you about them being in a decent spot at the moment. Only thing that is missing are a few bug fixes regarding certain skills and the Unchained Passive getting fixed.

P.S Realise I forgot to contact you in-game about doing some PvP with werewolfs

Ritter · March 2018

@Sordidfairytale - Love the innovation with Elegant! 20% is a lot, to be sure. Pairing Kena with Shacklebreaker is reverse synergy though, since running Kena with WW is a decision to mostly forgo your skills for insane Light Attack pressure. You would be an absolute monster with Elegant/Kena+Kvatch Gladiator or Shieldbreaker. Sounds like something I want to try at some point. You can even do the Kvatch setup in 7 heavy if you want.

@Qbiken - I've also been standoffish when it comes to Shacklebreaker, especially on WW where I think it's more important to build towards a niche of some sort due to the limitation of our skil-range, rather than just running a 'stat ball' set. I could be exactly wrong, but glad to hear it went well. I think I'm off the Pelinal's and Troll King wagon due to how predominant defile is. Makes no sense to me to give up other benefits for something that is hard-countered by the current meta. I'm taking the 'can't beat em', join em' approach. One of the biggest WW strengths is 'just having' an AOE defile, which is something PvP players are currently building around.

@Aznox - Just share the build dude, we're all friends here. Can't leech our intel and not give back, that's weaksauce mate.

Aznox · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@Sordidfairytale - Love the innovation with Elegant! 20% is a lot, to be sure.

Problem with boosting light attacks with Elegant is that around half of our light attack damage in fact comes from the bleed effect, effect that is refreshed every light attack (and so can proc more than once per second, if it ticked just before a light attack). So Elegant would not boost your light attack damage as much as stacking more weapon damage and stamina. Please double check me on this however.

@Qbiken - I've also been standoffish when it comes to Shacklebreaker, especially on WW where I think it's more important to build towards a niche of some sort due to the limitation of our skil-range, rather than just running a 'stat ball' set. I could be exactly wrong, but glad to hear it went well.

Shacklebreaker is so strong in werewolf because it gives 60% of Pelinal healing power + 75% of an offensive set damage output. (random numbers but you get the idea)

I think I'm off the Pelinal's and Troll King wagon due to how predominant defile is

Very often when the counter is so widely used doesnt mean you shouldn't use the thing that is countered, defile is popular for a reason.

To give you a sense of how strong Troll King is : i don't slot vigor in my build.

@Aznox - Just share the build dude, we're all friends here. Can't leech our intel and not give back, that's weaksauce mate.

You are right, I will share tonight.

Datolite · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@Sordidfairytale - Love the innovation with Elegant! 20% is a lot, to be sure. Pairing Kena with Shacklebreaker is reverse synergy though, since running Kena with WW is a decision to mostly forgo your skills for insane Light Attack pressure. You would be an absolute monster with Elegant/Kena+Kvatch Gladiator or Shieldbreaker. Sounds like something I want to try at some point. You can even do the Kvatch setup in 7 heavy if you want.

@Qbiken - I've also been standoffish when it comes to Shacklebreaker, especially on WW where I think it's more important to build towards a niche of some sort due to the limitation of our skil-range, rather than just running a 'stat ball' set. I could be exactly wrong, but glad to hear it went well. I think I'm off the Pelinal's and Troll King wagon due to how predominant defile is. Makes no sense to me to give up other benefits for something that is hard-countered by the current meta. I'm taking the 'can't beat em', join em' approach. One of the biggest WW strengths is 'just having' an AOE defile, which is something PvP players are currently building around.

So what do you propose as an effective heal or damage mitigation with these high-pressure setups? I am currently experimenting with a Senche/Automaton/Chudan build in medium armor and, while the damage is great and the roll dodge and Chudan are keeping me standing, healing is still the biggest issue for a non-Pelinal build (in no-CP). Also keeping in mind that we spend a lot of time as humans too, these sets are not exactly geared for those moments. How do you do any effective damage while in human form (if you were in Elegant/Kvatch for example)? That's kind of glass cannon that only fires when you're in WW form.

@Aznox - Just share the build dude, we're all friends here. Can't leech our intel and not give back, that's weaksauce mate.

Yeah sitting on something cause you think it might get nerfed is kind of lame. It's nice winning the pot every time but it doesn't count if you have an ace up your sleeve.

Xvorg · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@Xvorg Air set has much worse 1-4 set bonuses for WW, sadly.

Yup, but 2-3-and 5 are decent Stam regen is always needed

Nelson_Rebel · March 2018

I think I'm still going to go with a more traditional Style for the werewolf

Orc/Warden

Troll King- 2 Heavy

Seventh Legion- 5 Heavy

Salvation Set- Jewelry And weapons. Using Werewolf ult on front bar, Tree Ult on Backbar with 2h

Datolite · March 2018

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

I think I'm still going to go with a more traditional Style for the werewolf

Orc/Warden

Troll King- 2 Heavy

Seventh Legion- 5 Heavy

Salvation Set- Jewelry And weapons. Using Werewolf ult on front bar, Tree Ult on Backbar with 2h

What did they make the cooldown again on 7th Legion?

Aznox · March 2018

What did they make the cooldown again on 7th Legion?

2 seconds.

This set was overperforming A LOT in the context of 1vXing newbies in Cyrodiil, this was fixed.

It's still a good general use set, but i would prefer something like Automaton (if you don't need the weapon damage to boost healing in human form) or truth (for perma wolf or if you play a human form with access to off-balance)

Nelson_Rebel · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

What did they make the cooldown again on 7th Legion?

2 seconds.

This set was overperforming A LOT in the context of 1vXing newbies in Cyrodiil, this was fixed.

It's still a good general use set, but i would prefer something like Automaton (if you don't need the weapon damage to boost healing in human form) or truth (for perma wolf or if you play a human form with access to off-balance)

2 seconds is about the time it takes for me to switch bars lol the cooldown is almost unoticeable

It's still strong as hell

Aznox · March 2018

Yes it's still strong, it's just not anymore completely OP in 1vX.

Before with 5 persons hitting you, lets says they each hit you 3 times/sec (1 dot, 1 LA, 1 skill)
3x5 = 15hits/sec /10% = 1,5*1260 = 1890 healh per second
Of course it could go higher because it scaled infinitely, like other mitigation sources that are resistance, block, etc..

Now with a 2 sec CD, saying it procs between every 2 sec (best) and 2.4 sec (estimated average for 15 hits /sec) :
1260/2 = 630 health per second.
1260/2.4= 525 health per second.

Of course this is just theory, best way to make an opinion about it is to open Combat Metrics after real fights and compare the healing provided to your other healing sources, and multiply the weapon damage buff by its uptime to compare it to other offensive sets.

Datolite · March 2018

Decent numbers I guess. Just can't bring myself to rely on proc chance. That's on me though.