XP Exploit Poll

DoctorESO · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

You're still missing the point that those accounts need to be cleaned, innocent or not, and the only way they can apparently do that is by suspending them.

I'm not missing any point. It don't take 3 freaking weeks to set back accounts. I'm sure their DBA's can do it in 15 minutes.

So, it is three weeks now. Good to know. I had not heard that they extended it.

In checking the Dev Tracker, they haven't. As far as the Devs have announced, the suspensions are until the morning of March 5th, so *checks calendar* that's a 2 week suspension.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/396731/suspensions-for-update-17-xp-exploit/p1

Unless you have actual information to the contrary, of course.

February 19 to March 5 is two weeks, not three.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · February 2018

@VaranisArano yes you can encounter an exploit by an accident, grinding all your characters to cap lvl with 1-50 in almost 7 minutes each its clearly not an accident.

idk · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

nryerson1025 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

nryerson1025 wrote: »

yes they have a right to do it. but can we go over strategy here for a second? what is the motivation behind the "guilty until proven innocent" sweeping suspension? isrevenue or userbase even being considered? i don't know, if a company doesnt want me after i've spent 4200 hours on their game in the past two years, maybe i dont want them. I've spent the past week playing other MMOs, something i'd think most suspended players are doing during this time. are they actively baiting and cleaning up the subscriber base? what is this company thinking?

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the argument you are making here.

You seem to be arguing that your hours of gameplay or possibility of you picking up another game should cause ZOS to be cautious about dealing with exploits and people breaking the TOS. What?

.

Not just me, but everyone. What Zenimax does, is a business...modeled on making money. You don't seem to get that. This is the real world. Is ZoS so cozy with their growth and retention that they don't have to be concerned about this?

Its a business, sure. A business who permabanned experienced players for exploiting the Asylum trial and recently account banned a popular streamer for gold-selling.

Its a business who just gave out a 2-week suspension to 276 players who gained significant amounts of exp in IC because they:
Decided to deliberately exploit the bugged exp (Breaking TOS and COC)

Didn't report the bugged exp when they noticed it (breaking TOS and COC)

Had addons preventing them from seeing the bugged exp (Breaking TOS and COC, albeit unknowlingly - take that up in appeal with ZOS, who is not responsible for addon usage)

Didn't pay any attention to bugged exp gains (breaking TOS and COC, albeit unknowingly, - take that up in appeal with ZOS, but if it was over a long period of time, I'm not sure they'll buy that excuse.

So again, ZOS is a business. A business dealing with people who broke their Terms of Service and Code of Conduct. This time, there's a two week suspension and an appeals process for players who feel that they were wronged (mostly people claiming to be #3 and #4 who claim they didn't realize what was going on).

You ask: Is ZoS so cozy with their growth and retention that they don't have to be concerned about this?
I ask: Is ZOS so desperate for growth and retention that they should be concerned with players who broke the TOS and COC leaving?

I really doubt they are.

Exactly. Zos has had good growth by the few indicators we can see. It is in their best interest to be known as a company that goes after exploiters and cheats vs one that condones it or looks the other way. That would be the most assured means to kill the game.

Sparr0w · February 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

If me and my buddy have millions in our bank accounts, is it really stealing if I snatch $100 from his wallet? Or $1000? I mean he won't even notice, and I don't even need it.

Well @danno8 , personally, I don't think you should go to jail for it, as long as it happened while you were watching TV or reading a book or something.

Think it's more like you ask your millionaire buddy for $10 to pay for pizza as you don't have change & he leaves $1000 on the table.

I was mocking the fact that some people try to use the "I didn't notice" excuse because they weren't fully tuned into the game, as if that's somehow the game's fault.

Missed the italics... my bad

jordanmarx_ESO · February 2018

omg I can play! I am free! IC here I come! telvar baby!

--Ashyam

Elsonso · February 2018

.

jordanmarx_ESO wrote: »

omg I can play! I am free! IC here I come! telvar baby!

--Ashyam

So they are letting people out of the penalty box early?

Emma_Overload · February 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

.

jordanmarx_ESO wrote: »

omg I can play! I am free! IC here I come! telvar baby!

--Ashyam

So they are letting people out of the penalty box early?

Yep. My suspension is over, and I'm ready to reclaim my title as Queen of Elven Gardens.

VaranisArano · February 2018

Good, I'm glad to hear that ZOS is taking an individual approach to the situation.

Turelus · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Good, I'm glad to hear that ZOS is taking an individual approach to the situation.

Isn't this pretty much what they said they were doing? I mean we kept telling people to just contact them with information and appeal and ZOS would sort it if there was enough evidence.
People just kept wanting to make a riot on the forums rather than going through the correct channels.

pattyLtd · February 2018

-

Turelus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Good, I'm glad to hear that ZOS is taking an individual approach to the situation.

Isn't this pretty much what they said they were doing? I mean we kept telling people to just contact them with information and appeal and ZOS would sort it if there was enough evidence.
People just kept wanting to make a riot on the forums rather than going through the correct channels.

Heyyyyyy, i thought that was what we are supposed to do in here

Just kidding and glad it's getting resolved.

ps: It might be slow but the point mentioned that they can only roll back accounts properly by suspending them untill they did makes sense and never crossed my mind lol. Silly ikr ah well.

VaranisArano · February 2018

Turelus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Good, I'm glad to hear that ZOS is taking an individual approach to the situation.

Isn't this pretty much what they said they were doing? I mean we kept telling people to just contact them with information and appeal and ZOS would sort it if there was enough evidence.
People just kept wanting to make a riot on the forums rather than going through the correct channels.

Yeah, i know. I've been one of the ones that has been telling people to appeal and make their individual situations known.

Its just really nice to see the proof of it, to know that I wasn't just giving useless advice, and that ZOS actually followed through and took individual circumstances into account. Its the difference between seeing and believing, I guess. I'd been trusting that ZOS would, but its still really nice to see that ZOS did exactly what they said they would.

idk · February 2018

Turelus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Good, I'm glad to hear that ZOS is taking an individual approach to the situation.

Isn't this pretty much what they said they were doing? I mean we kept telling people to just contact them with information and appeal and ZOS would sort it if there was enough evidence.
People just kept wanting to make a riot on the forums rather than going through the correct channels.

This sums things up perfectly as far as Zos' actions and statements as well as the real purpose behind threads like this (to merely rant).

LordSemaj · February 2018

Turelus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Good, I'm glad to hear that ZOS is taking an individual approach to the situation.

Isn't this pretty much what they said they were doing? I mean we kept telling people to just contact them with information and appeal and ZOS would sort it if there was enough evidence.
People just kept wanting to make a riot on the forums rather than going through the correct channels.

Though it's not unheard of either for ZOS to unban even actual cheaters. Just not ones who have multiple account strikes.

Turelus · February 2018

LordSemaj wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Good, I'm glad to hear that ZOS is taking an individual approach to the situation.

Isn't this pretty much what they said they were doing? I mean we kept telling people to just contact them with information and appeal and ZOS would sort it if there was enough evidence.
People just kept wanting to make a riot on the forums rather than going through the correct channels.

Though it's not unheard of either for ZOS to unban even actual cheaters. Just not ones who have multiple account strikes.

I'm not against giving people second chances depending on actions which got a ban.
The only two I would say deserved to stay banned are RMT (sellers) or ones which run 3rd party software (CE/Bots) as those are people who clearly and actively go out of their way to break rules for their own gains.

Others I am fine having strike systems on, even those who buy gold as for a number of newer players to the MMO genre they may not be aware of what they're doing. Better for people to learn, have their gains removed and keep being a member of the game than to be removed forever for a mistake.

I do however fully encourage and approve of ZOS applying penalties to those who cheat and rolling back gains, this is how you keep a gain fair and known for its strong stance against cheating.

jordanmarx_ESO · February 2018

I really do appreciate zos for taking the time to follow through with their promise to look at my account on an individual level. It makes me feel heard and understood. It also has given me a great deal of faith in their customer support and user response departments. I am happy to have to eat my hat on this one and say that all of you all telling me to just put faith in zos and the appeals process are right. I have never been happier to be wrong.

BuddyAces · February 2018

Turelus wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Good, I'm glad to hear that ZOS is taking an individual approach to the situation.

Isn't this pretty much what they said they were doing? I mean we kept telling people to just contact them with information and appeal and ZOS would sort it if there was enough evidence.
People just kept wanting to make a riot on the forums rather than going through the correct channels.

Though it's not unheard of either for ZOS to unban even actual cheaters. Just not ones who have multiple account strikes.

I'm not against giving people second chances depending on actions which got a ban.
The only two I would say deserved to stay banned are RMT (sellers) or ones which run 3rd party software (CE/Bots) as those are people who clearly and actively go out of their way to break rules for their own gains.

Others I am fine having strike systems on, even those who buy gold as for a number of newer players to the MMO genre they may not be aware of what they're doing. Better for people to learn, have their gains removed and keep being a member of the game than to be removed forever for a mistake.

I do however fully encourage and approve of ZOS applying penalties to those who cheat and rolling back gains, this is how you keep a gain fair and known for its strong stance against cheating.

Just pointing this out, gold buying gets you a ban. I know someone who was banned for it. Lesson wasn't learned on their end sincetheir response to problems dealing with gold is just "Buy gold."

Turelus · February 2018

BuddyAces wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Good, I'm glad to hear that ZOS is taking an individual approach to the situation.

Isn't this pretty much what they said they were doing? I mean we kept telling people to just contact them with information and appeal and ZOS would sort it if there was enough evidence.
People just kept wanting to make a riot on the forums rather than going through the correct channels.

Though it's not unheard of either for ZOS to unban even actual cheaters. Just not ones who have multiple account strikes.

I'm not against giving people second chances depending on actions which got a ban.
The only two I would say deserved to stay banned are RMT (sellers) or ones which run 3rd party software (CE/Bots) as those are people who clearly and actively go out of their way to break rules for their own gains.

Others I am fine having strike systems on, even those who buy gold as for a number of newer players to the MMO genre they may not be aware of what they're doing. Better for people to learn, have their gains removed and keep being a member of the game than to be removed forever for a mistake.

I do however fully encourage and approve of ZOS applying penalties to those who cheat and rolling back gains, this is how you keep a gain fair and known for its strong stance against cheating.

Just pointing this out, gold buying gets you a ban. I know someone who was banned for it. Lesson wasn't learned on their end sincetheir response to problems dealing with gold is just "Buy gold."

Yeah, there are some who don't learn. Another MMO used to have a three strike rule for it but realised people just used it as a "two tries before you stop" mechanic, so they changed it to a two strike with removal.
Remember if you're caught buying it, get a suspension, flag and gold removal then you've still spend your own RL money for nothing.

Ackwalan · February 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

.

jordanmarx_ESO wrote: »

omg I can play! I am free! IC here I come! telvar baby!

--Ashyam

So they are letting people out of the penalty box early?

Yep. My suspension is over, and I'm ready to reclaim my title as Queen of Elven Gardens.

Grats, now be sure to drive between the lines. The rules apply to everyone.

DoctorESO · February 2018

So we're all good now and friends once more?

NyassaV · February 2018

I know someone who got temp banned after he killed a few mobs and gained like 9 CP so obviously there wasn't a lot of double checking or rationalization. After he realized he was like, oops, lets not do that. He still got banned

DoctorESO · February 2018

Hollery wrote: »

I know someone who got temp banned after he killed a few mobs and gained like 9 CP so obviously there wasn't a lot of double checking or rationalization. After he realized he was like, oops, lets not do that. He still got banned

I wonder if it helps to self-report your actions when that happens.

This means that the threshold was really low, assuming that person is telling the truth.

Perhaps the safest thing is to just not log in on the first day of a new patch. Or at least not during the first 12 hours. Then all of these troubles that repeat themselves every patch could be avoided (there will always be people who will still log in and be the first proverbial mice to the proverbial cheese, so to speak, so no worries about the exploits not getting exposed).

VaranisArano · February 2018

DoctorESO wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know someone who got temp banned after he killed a few mobs and gained like 9 CP so obviously there wasn't a lot of double checking or rationalization. After he realized he was like, oops, lets not do that. He still got banned

I wonder if it helps to self-report your actions when that happens.

This means that the threshold was really low, assuming that person is telling the truth.

Perhaps the safest thing is to just not log in on the first day of a new patch. Or at least not during the first 12 hours. Then all of these troubles that repeat themselves every patch could be avoided (there will always be people who will still log in and be the first proverbial mice to the proverbial cheese, so to speak, so no worries about the exploits not getting exposed).

Does it help to self-report?

Well, considering that reporting the bug is exactly what the TOS and the Code of Conduct tell you to do, I should certainly hope so!

If nothing else, you can point to that report when you make your appeal to ZOS, saying "I followed the TOS because I reported the bug, and I stopped gaining the bugged exp as soon as I could."

DoctorESO · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know someone who got temp banned after he killed a few mobs and gained like 9 CP so obviously there wasn't a lot of double checking or rationalization. After he realized he was like, oops, lets not do that. He still got banned

I wonder if it helps to self-report your actions when that happens.

This means that the threshold was really low, assuming that person is telling the truth.

Perhaps the safest thing is to just not log in on the first day of a new patch. Or at least not during the first 12 hours. Then all of these troubles that repeat themselves every patch could be avoided (there will always be people who will still log in and be the first proverbial mice to the proverbial cheese, so to speak, so no worries about the exploits not getting exposed).

Does it help to self-report?

Well, considering that reporting the bug is exactly what the TOS and the Code of Conduct tell you to do, I should certainly hope so!

If nothing else, you can point to that report when you make your appeal to ZOS, saying "I followed the TOS because I reported the bug, and I stopped gaining the bugged exp as soon as I could."

Makes sense!

Elsonso · February 2018

Hollery wrote: »

I know someone who got temp banned after he killed a few mobs and gained like 9 CP so obviously there wasn't a lot of double checking or rationalization. After he realized he was like, oops, lets not do that. He still got banned

Except for not reporting it, your "someone" did the right thing. Obviously not soon enough to avoid the suspension. Reporting it would not have prevented the suspension.

ZOS set a level of XP and CP. At that level, the account needs to be purged of the excess XP and CP. It looks like that requires that the account be suspended until they can do that, and that is going to take time. In this case, several days. Intent does not matter. Guilty or innocent, they have to wait for ZOS to finish cleaning the account.

Anything else that happens while they are doing this, like deciding that the account should be banned, probably takes much less time than the actual cleaning. While I have not heard of anyone who pulled a ban, permanently, I am sure that there were some.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

Lucifers_Pain wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

Exploiting is still exploiting whether or not it benefits the one exploiting.

If I stole something from a store that I didn't need, It would still be against the law.

Running through lava in a dungeon does not explicitly further your progression, nor does it necessarily prove intention, whereas, say, repeating the same dungeon to get specific rewards that were unintended would be more apt to be called an exploit because the intention is clear through the repetition, and the motive is clear because of the reward. Running through lava has no reward and I can't see a situation where you would run through it repeatedly to achieve something.

City of Ash II has a few spots that you can "skip" and its clearly not intended and is a benefit if your just trying to get the monster helm.

There is the whole 'Speed Run' Achievement thing. I'm not personally convinced its 'unintended' and I'm also not personally a fan of skipping content. The truth is I don't think I've ever gotten to enjoy the story of a dungeon in the game. It would be nice if I could actually replay a mission on a character (no special skill point rewards) just so I could take the time with friends. The reality is though no one listens to story in this type of content in any MMO. Its usually about challenge and race to the finish line.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know someone who got temp banned after he killed a few mobs and gained like 9 CP so obviously there wasn't a lot of double checking or rationalization. After he realized he was like, oops, lets not do that. He still got banned

Except for not reporting it, your "someone" did the right thing. Obviously not soon enough to avoid the suspension. Reporting it would not have prevented the suspension.

ZOS set a level of XP and CP. At that level, the account needs to be purged of the excess XP and CP. It looks like that requires that the account be suspended until they can do that, and that is going to take time. In this case, several days. Intent does not matter. Guilty or innocent, they have to wait for ZOS to finish cleaning the account.

Anything else that happens while they are doing this, like deciding that the account should be banned, probably takes much less time than the actual cleaning. While I have not heard of anyone who pulled a ban, permanently, I am sure that there were some.

@Hollery those potentially involved got suspended, not banned. The suspension time frame was so the could look into the details more and determine actual guilt/action.

That's the reason some people are being released early. It's probably also likely the reason some may end up actually banned.

I think the timeframe is more about investigation purposes than actual cleaning of the account. No doubt they can parse database entries to determine before and after amounts with the click of a button.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

Hollery wrote: »

I know someone who got temp banned after he killed a few mobs and gained like 9 CP so obviously there wasn't a lot of double checking or rationalization. After he realized he was like, oops, lets not do that. He still got banned

This is what had me worried actually... The content was intended to get an influx of players because of the release of storage boxes. IC is also something players like to play regularly anyway. I'm still very glad I was busy doing other pvp things and didn't dive into IC. I'm not the kind of player who watches his CP levels, not regularly at least. I don't like the notion that we have to be hyper-vigilant for things like this - it will take the fun out of the game.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Lucifers_Pain wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

Exploiting is still exploiting whether or not it benefits the one exploiting.

If I stole something from a store that I didn't need, It would still be against the law.

Running through lava in a dungeon does not explicitly further your progression, nor does it necessarily prove intention, whereas, say, repeating the same dungeon to get specific rewards that were unintended would be more apt to be called an exploit because the intention is clear through the repetition, and the motive is clear because of the reward. Running through lava has no reward and I can't see a situation where you would run through it repeatedly to achieve something.

City of Ash II has a few spots that you can "skip" and its clearly not intended and is a benefit if your just trying to get the monster helm.

There is the whole 'Speed Run' Achievement thing. I'm not personally convinced its 'unintended' and I'm also not personally a fan of skipping content. The truth is I don't think I've ever gotten to enjoy the story of a dungeon in the game. It would be nice if I could actually replay a mission on a character (no special skill point rewards) just so I could take the time with friends. The reality is though no one listens to story in this type of content in any MMO. Its usually about challenge and race to the finish line.

@dodgehopper_ESO Neither intended nor an exploit. Simply an oversight the Devs missed that was creatively utilized by players.

Clearly they're taking care of that sort of thing with the new specifications on the DLC dungeons, indicating all encounters are now required. They'll likely update the old achieves to match at some point, leaving those that have it grandfathered in.

Regarding quest/storyline, you have two options:

Go in with a premade group.
Say something at the beginning. I've never once kept someone from listening to quest dialogue if it was known ahead of time they needed it. It doesn't add that much time*, but most people that have been in there (wherever there is) a hundred times just kind of assume the rest of the group has as well.

I can even point out which ones are the "Chatty Cathy" variety vs some others (Direfrost, VoM, Tempest...) I specifically didn't pick up the quest in the new DLC's because I knew the initial runs wouldn't be conducive to listening to quest dialogue, but more for figuring out the mechanics and getting the clear.

Elsonso · February 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know someone who got temp banned after he killed a few mobs and gained like 9 CP so obviously there wasn't a lot of double checking or rationalization. After he realized he was like, oops, lets not do that. He still got banned

Except for not reporting it, your "someone" did the right thing. Obviously not soon enough to avoid the suspension. Reporting it would not have prevented the suspension.

ZOS set a level of XP and CP. At that level, the account needs to be purged of the excess XP and CP. It looks like that requires that the account be suspended until they can do that, and that is going to take time. In this case, several days. Intent does not matter. Guilty or innocent, they have to wait for ZOS to finish cleaning the account.

Anything else that happens while they are doing this, like deciding that the account should be banned, probably takes much less time than the actual cleaning. While I have not heard of anyone who pulled a ban, permanently, I am sure that there were some.

@Hollery those potentially involved got suspended, not banned. The suspension time frame was so the could look into the details more and determine actual guilt/action.

That's the reason some people are being released early. It's probably also likely the reason some may end up actually banned.

I think the timeframe is more about investigation purposes than actual cleaning of the account. No doubt they can parse database entries to determine before and after amounts with the click of a button.

I doubt they can clean, or roll back, an account with the push of a button. That would be a very high level of functionality. While it is possible, there is no indication that they treat accounts with that level of automation. I figure that this was all manual. Examination of logs, possibly examining the account on a dev server loaded from the last backup, then manually removing XP, CP, skill points, attribute points, and maybe even Leveling rewards.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know someone who got temp banned after he killed a few mobs and gained like 9 CP so obviously there wasn't a lot of double checking or rationalization. After he realized he was like, oops, lets not do that. He still got banned

Except for not reporting it, your "someone" did the right thing. Obviously not soon enough to avoid the suspension. Reporting it would not have prevented the suspension.

ZOS set a level of XP and CP. At that level, the account needs to be purged of the excess XP and CP. It looks like that requires that the account be suspended until they can do that, and that is going to take time. In this case, several days. Intent does not matter. Guilty or innocent, they have to wait for ZOS to finish cleaning the account.

Anything else that happens while they are doing this, like deciding that the account should be banned, probably takes much less time than the actual cleaning. While I have not heard of anyone who pulled a ban, permanently, I am sure that there were some.

@Hollery those potentially involved got suspended, not banned. The suspension time frame was so the could look into the details more and determine actual guilt/action.

That's the reason some people are being released early. It's probably also likely the reason some may end up actually banned.

I think the timeframe is more about investigation purposes than actual cleaning of the account. No doubt they can parse database entries to determine before and after amounts with the click of a button.

I doubt they can clean, or roll back, an account with the push of a button. That would be a very high level of functionality. While it is possible, there is no indication that they treat accounts with that level of automation. I figure that this was all manual. Examination of logs, possibly examining the account on a dev server loaded from the last backup, then manually removing XP, CP, skill points, attribute points, and maybe even Leveling rewards.

Indeed, in it's simplest form it's strictly a number in a database that can be overwritten. I do agree that they likely manually viewed logs/actions in order to determine what needed adjusting while allowing other things to stay in place.

I suspect they wanted the human factor for guilt determination, also to keep from accidentally one-button wrecking an account in some unintended fashion. While a minor inconvenience, I think they made the right call an all accounts.

EDIT: I despise autocorrect.