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Give Cloak stacking cost
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Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Even if stamblades can perma cloak too, why is being able to run away so op? It is not like perma cloak does anything else ...
Seriously, if i couldn't - sometimes - escape from zergs i'd stop playing the game. No point in running solo or in a small group if you are guaranteed to die as soon you are outnumbered too heavily ...
Outnumbered too heavily and doesnt expect to die and still thinks cloak doesnt need a fix.
So zerging should always result in safe and guaranteed kills?
Edit @Ragnaroek93
Offensive use of cloak and ganking doesn't require you to spam the ability, so a stacking cost increase won't change much in this regard. It would only nerf cloak as an escape tool. Since i'm not ganking, i wouldn't care about a dmg debuff while in cloak, but then it should include all kinds of stealth (sneak, invis pots).
From my experience Shadow Image is the better tool to escape from zergs. A stacking cost on Cloak wouldn't mean that you can't use that skill several times in a row it would just prevent that a nightblade can't disengage and engage all the time: You would actually have to decide between escaping or engaging a second time.Even if stamblades can perma cloak too, why is being able to run away so op? It is not like perma cloak does anything else ...
Seriously, if i couldn't - sometimes - escape from zergs i'd stop playing the game. No point in running solo or in a small group if you are guaranteed to die as soon you are outnumbered too heavily ...
Can I get this feature on my DK and Templar pls
Sure, if my stamblades gets the 1v1 strength of a Dk and the group utility from a Templar :P
Do you actually think Stamblades are weak 1v1?
A rollerblade build is actually weak quite 1v1 against a host of different classes/builds. It's a hit and run artist. I've not duelled too much on stamblade personally to be considered anything more than an observer, but generally the build that shines in 1v1 is a heavy armor build
Who's talking about rollerblade builds? Who's even still playing those? No wonder people mistakenly think Stamblade is weak they're still running around in Eternal Hunt like it's early 2017.
Who plays heavy armor bleedblade outside of duels? WutFace
Do you have legit reading comprehension issues? He literally said "rollerblade is actually quite weak 1v1" and I went on to ask who builds a rollerblade to find 1v1s.
->Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Even if stamblades can perma cloak too, why is being able to run away so op? It is not like perma cloak does anything else ...
Seriously, if i couldn't - sometimes - escape from zergs i'd stop playing the game. No point in running solo or in a small group if you are guaranteed to die as soon you are outnumbered too heavily ...
Outnumbered too heavily and doesnt expect to die and still thinks cloak doesnt need a fix.
So zerging should always result in safe and guaranteed kills?
Edit @Ragnaroek93
Offensive use of cloak and ganking doesn't require you to spam the ability, so a stacking cost increase won't change much in this regard. It would only nerf cloak as an escape tool. Since i'm not ganking, i wouldn't care about a dmg debuff while in cloak, but then it should include all kinds of stealth (sneak, invis pots).
From my experience Shadow Image is the better tool to escape from zergs. A stacking cost on Cloak wouldn't mean that you can't use that skill several times in a row it would just prevent that a nightblade can't disengage and engage all the time: You would actually have to decide between escaping or engaging a second time.Even if stamblades can perma cloak too, why is being able to run away so op? It is not like perma cloak does anything else ...
Seriously, if i couldn't - sometimes - escape from zergs i'd stop playing the game. No point in running solo or in a small group if you are guaranteed to die as soon you are outnumbered too heavily ...
Can I get this feature on my DK and Templar pls
Sure, if my stamblades gets the 1v1 strength of a Dk and the group utility from a Templar :P
Do you actually think Stamblades are weak 1v1?
A rollerblade build is actually weak quite 1v1 against a host of different classes/builds. It's a hit and run artist. I've not duelled too much on stamblade personally to be considered anything more than an observer, but generally the build that shines in 1v1 is a heavy armor build
Who's talking about rollerblade builds? Who's even still playing those? No wonder people mistakenly think Stamblade is weak they're still running around in Eternal Hunt like it's early 2017.
I don't get what you are talking about. Heavy armor bleedblade is kinda garbage in open world and for duels there are plenty of duel builds out there who are stronger than bleedblade (wtf, I'm pretty sure I can defeat most of them on my rollerblade as long as they don't run Impreg armor and/or Troll King... fighting a bleedblade would probably feel like a walk in the park if you are a petsorc or a duroks build).I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bolt Escape having a 50% stacking cost was an absolutely horrible idea. Please don’t do the same to Cloak. If a stacking cost must be added it should be like 10%.
Want to counter a NB? Cast one of the tons of counters or outright break them out using AoE.
Want to counter a Sorc? Root them, snare them, gapclose on every Bolt Escape cast. Just like that they’re completely dead or have to stop streaking away in order to shield spam. Sorcs don’t have powerful HoTs (or HoTs at all) to save them while they streak away.
If no one in your zerg bothers to counter a Sorc/NB then they deserve to escape.
Atm though Sorcs are screwed by that massive stacking cost. NBs shouldn’t have to deal with that too. Like I keep saying, buff oither classes rather than nerf NB because it’s in a great spot rn and fun for many ppl.Edited by Vaoh on February 26, 2018 6:16PM2 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Every day I come here and think "finally, we've reached that level where nobody can possibly post something more stupid than anything posted before", then someone like the op says "here, hold my beer and watch this"
Yeah, giving Cloak a stacking cost is for sure the dumbest idea in the whole forum... Looking forward to see you complaining in 3 months when Nbs get nerfed. And don't be surprised if they nerf the wrong things. Magsorcs also defended shieldstacking and skelly pirate over months and what happened? Everything from magsorc was nerfed instead of nerfing the right things. Stamdks also defended Redguard, vitality potions and heavy armor... look up what happened to stamdks. Not saying that Cloak is on the same level as heavy armor + vit pots were or skelly pirate sorc with 3 shields was but it's not balanced either.DemonDruaga wrote: »Just lol. Like 1 out of 10 fights i can cloak around, the rest i will just stay detected due the various cloak counters there are.
On my stam dk i usualy don't loose to a stam blade because of their cloaking, i can break that imidiatly, the defile and insane bleed builds are what tears me apart, not their 0.5 seconds invisibility before i detect em again.
But opinions differ i'd say
It is ok to die against opponents. It is not ok if your opponent can easily survive forever. We don't need nerfs which increase the time to kill even further.Ragnaroek93 wrote: »It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).
Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).
Greetings
Give vigor stacking cost AKA Streak Treatment too.
Rofl. Giving a heal over time stacking cost doesn't make sense at all but whatever. Mentally prepared myself anyways before creating this thread.
Have you ever tried a NB? That's the best way to learn how to counter it. If not, please, avoid coming here giving ideas about somethig you don't really understand.
Cloak is very, very hard to master and most of the players at Cyro know how to counter it. You have 2 options. the easy and mediocre one, which is ask for nerfs, or the hard one which is l2p. And that l2p implies you create a cloak using NB
Read my signature mate.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »
From my experience Shadow Image is the better tool to escape from zergs. A stacking cost on Cloak wouldn't mean that you can't use that skill several times in a row it would just prevent that a nightblade can't disengage and engage all the time: You would actually have to decide between escaping or engaging a second time.
Shadow Image alone doesn't let me escape as magblade, because it is more of a kiting tool than something to cover distance and i'm simply not fast enough to run away when getting chased. And i will get chased the moment i'm visible. Cloak alone also doesn't allow me to escape most of the time, because it gets broken by so many things that are very hard to avoid when snared and sometimes i'm already forced to spam it in oder to get it off just once, which is already quite costly.
I mostly play magblade (other then magsorc) and mobility in double take/cripple+cloak+concealed is basically supreme as far as magicka builds go. I can put so much distance so quickly that unless I'm marked or detect potted, I'm really quite hard to catch by simple AoE spam. Add a functioning Shadow Image into that....
Problem is without 2H and FM snare removal, you can get a bit stuck. That's why I'd probably trade cost stacking for snare removal on my magblade, so that I can happily slot destro again. There's really no good argument for being able to cloak for 2+ mins. A shuffle-cloak would only need 1-2 intelligent uses to get you away, while also creating windows for some counterplay. It's not a skill that should be spammable tbh, much like Streak in a way.
You say it yourself, snares are an issue and taking 2h on a mag build is a quite huge trade-off compared to destro or even dw. Maybe a snare removal tied to cloak would work, but in the current situation a straight cloak nerf would hurt magblade in solo/small scale open world pvp the most imo (while changing little to nothing in duels or zergs, where magblade shines - not that i think magbalde is bad for open world, but i don't think it is op, unless viable = op).
I don't know how much it would actually hurt stam blade, since it don't play one myself, but i always had the impression that they don't have to (or can't) spam cloak that much anyway.
And i don't see the issue with 2+ min of cloak when anyone can perma sneak.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Even if stamblades can perma cloak too, why is being able to run away so op? It is not like perma cloak does anything else ...
Seriously, if i couldn't - sometimes - escape from zergs i'd stop playing the game. No point in running solo or in a small group if you are guaranteed to die as soon you are outnumbered too heavily ...
This is where you are wildly mistaken. A good stamblade doesnt use a cloak to run. At most, they use it to reset a fight, more commonly, they use it to line up burst. It allows them to go extremely glassy, burst people from stealth, and either get a kill or hit the reset button with really no penalty. Meanwhile, the person you are fighting is typically running around and expending resources to try and catch you.
Perma cloak on a stamblade is certainly over powered, especially if cloak really is fixed. I dont know if stack cost is the answer (certainly might be), but my guess is they will need to do something about it.
For healing or stealth bursting a nb doesn't need to spam cloak. Gankers are just sneaking arround and mid combat a single cast every few seconds should be enough to get off those crit heals and to set up the burst. Consecutive cloaking is usually only neccessary for actually running away, which allows the opponent(s) to reset too. A stacking cost increase would only affect the latter.Edited by Rianai on February 26, 2018 6:31PM0 -
shinikaze✭✭✭DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER wrote: »Cloak is still useless. Still gets broken. Theres still mark. There are still detect pots..
no thx
Cloak is not useless, no need to be ridiculous. If it was useless it wouldn't be on the bar of 99% of the NB builds, what with all the great skills they have to choose from.
Whether it's too strong is a subject for debate and I'm not currently convinced it is. But lets use valid arguments and not talk complete horse poop.
because it is the "most reliable" scape/defense tool on a nightblade.
cloak its not that cheap, also. it cost 3k+ magicka for 2.5 secs of invisibility on a pure stam build that means you can only cloak 3~ 4 times unless you actually invest in magicka/ regen.
cloak is not usless, but, it's not a win button either all you get to do is either scape or reset a fight.
I never said it's a win button, though. That's a straw-man argument. It's a highly efficient defence, calling it useless is complete nonsense I wasn't wrong.
Stamblades also have dodge and Shadow Image. Try playing a StamPlar where your only defence is dodge for example. And the 3~4 times on a Stamblade, becomes 20+ times on a magblade. It's highly efficient and quite cheap.
Again, I'm not advocating a flat nerf personally. But whatever debate must be had needs to happen based on reality, not fabrications.
Sorry, I never said you specifically, I'm just saying it is not a win button period.
every mid armor got access to shuffle. (blur is not a choice, because magicka starvation)
Shadow is not as good for a ganker anymore since it: a) requires a target and b) break stealth.
Skill itself has potential but requires a high level of foresight to use effectively.
and I said "most reliable" don't put a Straw man yourself ¬.¬)0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »
From my experience Shadow Image is the better tool to escape from zergs. A stacking cost on Cloak wouldn't mean that you can't use that skill several times in a row it would just prevent that a nightblade can't disengage and engage all the time: You would actually have to decide between escaping or engaging a second time.
Shadow Image alone doesn't let me escape as magblade, because it is more of a kiting tool than something to cover distance and i'm simply not fast enough to run away when getting chased. And i will get chased the moment i'm visible. Cloak alone also doesn't allow me to escape most of the time, because it gets broken by so many things that are very hard to avoid when snared and sometimes i'm already forced to spam it in oder to get it off just once, which is already quite costly.
I mostly play magblade (other then magsorc) and mobility in double take/cripple+cloak+concealed is basically supreme as far as magicka builds go. I can put so much distance so quickly that unless I'm marked or detect potted, I'm really quite hard to catch by simple AoE spam. Add a functioning Shadow Image into that....
Problem is without 2H and FM snare removal, you can get a bit stuck. That's why I'd probably trade cost stacking for snare removal on my magblade, so that I can happily slot destro again. There's really no good argument for being able to cloak for 2+ mins. A shuffle-cloak would only need 1-2 intelligent uses to get you away, while also creating windows for some counterplay. It's not a skill that should be spammable tbh, much like Streak in a way.
You say it yourself, snares are an issue and taking 2h on a mag build is a quite huge trade-off compared to destro or even dw. Maybe a snare removal tied to cloak would work, but in the current situation a straight cloak nerf would hurt magblade in solo/small scale open world pvp the most imo (while changing little to nothing in duels or zergs, where magblade shines - not that i think magbalde is bad for open world, but i don't think it is op, unless viable = op).
I don't know how much it would actually hurt stam blade, since it don't play one myself, but i always had the impression that they don't have to (or can't) spam cloak that much anyway.
And i don't see the issue with 2+ min of cloak when anyone can perma sneak.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Even if stamblades can perma cloak too, why is being able to run away so op? It is not like perma cloak does anything else ...
Seriously, if i couldn't - sometimes - escape from zergs i'd stop playing the game. No point in running solo or in a small group if you are guaranteed to die as soon you are outnumbered too heavily ...
This is where you are wildly mistaken. A good stamblade doesnt use a cloak to run. At most, they use it to reset a fight, more commonly, they use it to line up burst. It allows them to go extremely glassy, burst people from stealth, and either get a kill or hit the reset button with really no penalty. Meanwhile, the person you are fighting is typically running around and expending resources to try and catch you.
Perma cloak on a stamblade is certainly over powered, especially if cloak really is fixed. I dont know if stack cost is the answer (certainly might be), but my guess is they will need to do something about it.
For healing or stealth bursting a nb doesn't need to spam cloak. Gankers are just sneaking arround and mid combat a single cast every few seconds should be enough to get off those crit heals and to set up the burst. Consecutive cloaking is usually only neccessary for actually running away, which allows the opponent(s) to reset too. A stacking cost increase would only affect the latter.
Fair enough. Maybe give magblades some better ways to remove snares outside of running around with Forward Momentum.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Even if stamblades can perma cloak too, why is being able to run away so op? It is not like perma cloak does anything else ...
Seriously, if i couldn't - sometimes - escape from zergs i'd stop playing the game. No point in running solo or in a small group if you are guaranteed to die as soon you are outnumbered too heavily ...
Outnumbered too heavily and doesnt expect to die and still thinks cloak doesnt need a fix.
So zerging should always result in safe and guaranteed kills?
Edit @Ragnaroek93
Offensive use of cloak and ganking doesn't require you to spam the ability, so a stacking cost increase won't change much in this regard. It would only nerf cloak as an escape tool. Since i'm not ganking, i wouldn't care about a dmg debuff while in cloak, but then it should include all kinds of stealth (sneak, invis pots).
From my experience Shadow Image is the better tool to escape from zergs. A stacking cost on Cloak wouldn't mean that you can't use that skill several times in a row it would just prevent that a nightblade can't disengage and engage all the time: You would actually have to decide between escaping or engaging a second time.Even if stamblades can perma cloak too, why is being able to run away so op? It is not like perma cloak does anything else ...
Seriously, if i couldn't - sometimes - escape from zergs i'd stop playing the game. No point in running solo or in a small group if you are guaranteed to die as soon you are outnumbered too heavily ...
Can I get this feature on my DK and Templar pls
Sure, if my stamblades gets the 1v1 strength of a Dk and the group utility from a Templar :P
Do you actually think Stamblades are weak 1v1?
A rollerblade build is actually weak quite 1v1 against a host of different classes/builds. It's a hit and run artist. I've not duelled too much on stamblade personally to be considered anything more than an observer, but generally the build that shines in 1v1 is a heavy armor build
Who's talking about rollerblade builds? Who's even still playing those? No wonder people mistakenly think Stamblade is weak they're still running around in Eternal Hunt like it's early 2017.
Who plays heavy armor bleedblade outside of duels? WutFace
Do you have legit reading comprehension issues? He literally said "rollerblade is actually quite weak 1v1" and I went on to ask who builds a rollerblade to find 1v1s.
->Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Even if stamblades can perma cloak too, why is being able to run away so op? It is not like perma cloak does anything else ...
Seriously, if i couldn't - sometimes - escape from zergs i'd stop playing the game. No point in running solo or in a small group if you are guaranteed to die as soon you are outnumbered too heavily ...
Outnumbered too heavily and doesnt expect to die and still thinks cloak doesnt need a fix.
So zerging should always result in safe and guaranteed kills?
Edit @Ragnaroek93
Offensive use of cloak and ganking doesn't require you to spam the ability, so a stacking cost increase won't change much in this regard. It would only nerf cloak as an escape tool. Since i'm not ganking, i wouldn't care about a dmg debuff while in cloak, but then it should include all kinds of stealth (sneak, invis pots).
From my experience Shadow Image is the better tool to escape from zergs. A stacking cost on Cloak wouldn't mean that you can't use that skill several times in a row it would just prevent that a nightblade can't disengage and engage all the time: You would actually have to decide between escaping or engaging a second time.Even if stamblades can perma cloak too, why is being able to run away so op? It is not like perma cloak does anything else ...
Seriously, if i couldn't - sometimes - escape from zergs i'd stop playing the game. No point in running solo or in a small group if you are guaranteed to die as soon you are outnumbered too heavily ...
Can I get this feature on my DK and Templar pls
Sure, if my stamblades gets the 1v1 strength of a Dk and the group utility from a Templar :P
Do you actually think Stamblades are weak 1v1?
A rollerblade build is actually weak quite 1v1 against a host of different classes/builds. It's a hit and run artist. I've not duelled too much on stamblade personally to be considered anything more than an observer, but generally the build that shines in 1v1 is a heavy armor build
Who's talking about rollerblade builds? Who's even still playing those? No wonder people mistakenly think Stamblade is weak they're still running around in Eternal Hunt like it's early 2017.
I don't get what you are talking about. Heavy armor bleedblade is kinda garbage in open world and for duels there are plenty of duel builds out there who are stronger than bleedblade (wtf, I'm pretty sure I can defeat most of them on my rollerblade as long as they don't run Impreg armor and/or Troll King... fighting a bleedblade would probably feel like a walk in the park if you are a petsorc or a duroks build).
I don't know why you're having so much trouble following this conversation. You brought up 1v1's when you tried claiming that stamblades are bad in 1v1s. Now you're bouncing all over the place, talking about sorcs and open world, and contradicting your earlier claims with each successive post. I don't know what your deal is. There's no need to reply to this. Won't be replying to anymore of your posts.Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT1 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭As a DW/2H NB I only use cloak to get the initial shadowy disguise crit. After that I may use it to get a crit if I can get behind the player while cloaked. I dont use shade so Cloak is my only defensive escape mechanism if I need to escape, and as a stamblade I can only use it 4 times before running out of magicka.
Im melee anyway, I dont want to be forced to use shadow image to get away when I dont even want to slot it at all.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I definitely get what the OP is saying. Something likely will happen to NB at some point. There is a lot of cloaking, heal to full, and right back into combat with strong burst going on these days. I agree with others to where I wouldn't just outright nerf it but make it not spammable and just a more reliable escape. Could see the other option of it blocking regen and healing. Could supress that the same way it does DOTs but add roots and snares to that.1 -
Hempyre✭✭✭✭Cloak is fine as it is.
Cloak is a class defining skill. Any changes to it, regardless of how small, would be detrimental to the playability of the class.
Cloak is in no way comparable to Streak. Streak has both a damage and stun component, makes snares and stuns useless and creates significant distance with one or two casts, and it allows you to reset the fight on command more effectively than Cloak. Streak is clearly escape, offensive, and defensive. Cloak provides no direct offensive capability. It's obviously escape and defense, and possibly strategic (reset) However, spamming Caltrops or Talons or see invis pots, or Flare, or Magelight, or Mark, or Fear, or... etc... breaks Cloak. None of those impact Streak. Cloak does not create safe distance like Streak.
No you cannot perma cloak on a stamblade with 11k mag and 600 regen. 3, maybe 4 times tops, hit a pot and maybe one more. What utter nonsense that misinformation is. Cost is 3780/4050. Even with reduction gear it's not possible on a stamblade in combat.
Im sure you theoretically could build your stamblade for high mag regen and get some decent spammability out of it, should you want to gimp your toon into uselessness. Have at it..
I swap my "main" out every few months or so as I get bored, currently I'm back on my magblade. My first toon ever, played for years etc... I use Cloak all the time, and i burn down stealthers just as easily as anyone else by using the same methods available to everyone else.. Magelight, or see invis pots, or a well placed aoe. Without cloak NB's get wrecked hard. its class defining skill, and yes it's effective as an escape tool and in resetting the fight. I don't see the problem there. It still has all of the above mentioned weaknesses when attempting to reset or escape, unlike Streak... When I get caught, and can't invis, due to the plethora of counters to Cloak, I get burned down too. To say it needs a nerf and then to nerf down the counters to match makes no sense at all.
Every class gets their thing, Major Mending, spammable roots, cleanse, Streak, what have you... Cloak is ours, and it's fine the way it is.Edited by Hempyre on February 26, 2018 7:11PM4 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You say it yourself, snares are an issue and taking 2h on a mag build is a quite huge trade-off compared to destro or even dw. Maybe a snare removal tied to cloak would work, but in the current situation a straight cloak nerf would hurt magblade in solo/small scale open world pvp the most imo (while changing little to nothing in duels or zergs, where magblade shines - not that i think magbalde is bad for open world, but i don't think it is op, unless viable = op).
I don't know how much it would actually hurt stam blade, since it don't play one myself, but i always had the impression that they don't have to (or can't) spam cloak that much anyway.
And i don't see the issue with 2+ min of cloak when anyone can perma sneak.
You mean other than the fact that you can't sneak in combat or in melee range of enemies due to detection radius? Yeas, I certainly do see a problem with it. It's breaking in quite a lot of PvE content, you can cloak past bosses but you can't stealth past them. And I don't go into the IC sewers as anything else than a magblade because I can cloak past all the mobs and hide in them if I'm being chased. Sewers always used to be a NB playground cause of this. And the ability to constantly reset fights in PvP or duels is pretty huge.
EU | PC | AD0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »ArpamiesFin wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »ArpamiesFin wrote: »nerf is needed. i can pretty much perma cloak with my stamblades 11k magicka and 600 regen
I have nearly identical stats and have to dispute this. I am no-where close to being able to perma-cloak.
i know right, 3 cloaks in a row is a must nerf op-ness
It stacks too well with shuffle and dodge. You can literally mitigate all damage from multiple targets plus almost immediately go back on the offensive all while wearing a glass cannon build
That's simply not true either. You can't dodge and cloak much on a glass cannon build. Believe it or not, but every non ganker actually invests a good amount into survivability by getting the regen that is needed to play rollerblade. You need much more regen than on a tank build so it's just fair that you don't need to get as much health and resistances as tank builds.Nightblades won’t get nerfed. The forum outrage would be tremendous.
@Ragnarock41
The discussion is a waste. The “there are so many counters” card is another NB exclusive and lets these discussions vanish almost as quickly as they do themselves.
Instead of isolating cloak as the problem the more interesting discussion is the whole NB toolkit, starting with the passives, over to their cheap strong ultimates, and ending with Shade+Cloak.
It’s coherent class design. Really well done. It’s just that every class should be done like that and not only 2/5.
And the comments from both of you make the topic better? I don't think any of you two actually played the class enough to make a fair statement about nbs nor do I remember any of you complaining about balance when magsorc and stamdk were completely overpowered (don't tell me that heavy armor stamdks with vit pots or skeleton pirate sorcs with 3 shields were fine, that was far more unbalanced than nbs currently are - and yes, I've played all three classes for longer than one week).
To be honest I was playing a 2h/bow stamDK so I really missed out on the whole stamDK OP train.
And lets not forget stamDK being OP had more to do with the heavy armor meta than the class itself..Cloak is fine as it is.
Cloak is a class defining skill. Any changes to it, regardless of how small, would be detrimental to the playability of the class.
Cloak is in no way comparable to Streak. Streak has both a damage and stun component, makes snares and stuns useless and creates significant distance with one or two casts, and it allows you to reset the fight on command more effectively than Cloak. Streak is clearly escape, offensive, and defensive. Cloak provides no direct offensive capability. It's obviously escape and defense, and possibly strategic (reset) However, spamming Caltrops or Talons or see invis pots, or Flare, or Magelight, or Mark, or Fear, or... etc... breaks Cloak. None of those impact Streak. Cloak does not create safe distance like Streak.
No you cannot perma cloak on a stamblade with 11k mag and 600 regen. 3, maybe 4 times tops, hit a pot and maybe one more. What utter nonsense that misinformation is. Cost is 3780/4050. Even with reduction gear it's not possible on a stamblade in combat.
Im sure you theoretically could build your stamblade for high mag regen and get some decent spammability out of it, should you want to gimp your toon into uselessness. Have at it..
I swap my "main" out every few months or so as I get bored, currently I'm back on my magblade. My first toon ever, played for years etc... I use Cloak all the time, and i burn down stealthers just as easily as anyone else by using the same methods available to everyone else.. Magelight, or see invis pots, or a well placed aoe. Without cloak NB's get wrecked hard. its class defining skill, and yes it's effective as an escape tool and in resetting the fight. I don't see the problem there. It still has all of the above mentioned weaknesses when attempting to reset or escape, unlike Streak... When I get caught, and can't invis, due to the plethora of counters to Cloak, I get burned down too. To say it needs a nerf and then to nerf down the counters to match makes no sense at all.
Every class gets their thing, Major Mending, spammable roots, cleanse, Streak, what have you... Cloak is ours, and it's fine the way it is.
wings are a class defining skill. Battle roar is a class defining passive. chain is a class defining skill.
Did that fact stop those from getting nerfed?
Do you really think DKs with their 3 seconds of major mending for friggen 4050 stamina is the same league with cloak?
Why is it class defining ability when it comes to cheeseblaes and nerf this *** when it comes to everything else?Edited by Ragnarock41 on February 26, 2018 7:19PM4 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Magelight.
Expert hunter.
Mark target.
Revealing flare.
Detect potions.
Any aoe ability.
Those are all hard counters to cloak.
A stamina nightblade can cloak 3-4 times before using up all magicka. He might get one more in if he uses a magicka potion. Its actually smarter to use an invisibility potion at that point for 15-20 seconds of invis, which is probably what a lot of players are doing and it gets misconstrued as cloak, but any class can use those.
Streak has no reliable counters, even gap closers just took a hefty nerf with Dragon bones. Sorcs still complaining like always though.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Magelight.
Expert hunter.
Mark target.
Revealing flare.
Detect potions.
Any aoe ability.
Those are all hard counters to cloak.
A stamina nightblade can cloak 3-4 times before using up all magicka. He might get one more in if he uses a magicka potion. Its actually smarter to use an invisibility potion at that point for 15-20 seconds of invis, which is probably what a lot of players are doing and it gets misconstrued as cloak, but any class can use those.
Streak has no reliable counters, even gap closers just took a hefty nerf with Dragon bones. Sorcs still complaining like always though.
If you actually used evil hunter for just one day, you would have known it costs you your kidneys yet still does not work properly.4 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Magelight.
Expert hunter.
Mark target.
Revealing flare.
Detect potions.
Any aoe ability.
Those are all hard counters to cloak.
A stamina nightblade can cloak 3-4 times before using up all magicka. He might get one more in if he uses a magicka potion. Its actually smarter to use an invisibility potion at that point for 15-20 seconds of invis, which is probably what a lot of players are doing and it gets misconstrued as cloak, but any class can use those.
Streak has no reliable counters, even gap closers just took a hefty nerf with Dragon bones. Sorcs still complaining like always though.
I'd like to know which part of the gap closer nerf has stopped people catching up to Sorcs? And I don't really see many Sorcs complaining about Streak, if they are it's a pretty small minority. It's pretty balanced as it is. I actually see plenty of nerf request threads about Sorcs on a weekly basis, rather than complains from Sorcs.EU | PC | AD2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭You say it yourself, snares are an issue and taking 2h on a mag build is a quite huge trade-off compared to destro or even dw. Maybe a snare removal tied to cloak would work, but in the current situation a straight cloak nerf would hurt magblade in solo/small scale open world pvp the most imo (while changing little to nothing in duels or zergs, where magblade shines - not that i think magbalde is bad for open world, but i don't think it is op, unless viable = op).
I don't know how much it would actually hurt stam blade, since it don't play one myself, but i always had the impression that they don't have to (or can't) spam cloak that much anyway.
And i don't see the issue with 2+ min of cloak when anyone can perma sneak.
You mean other than the fact that you can't sneak in combat or in melee range of enemies due to detection radius? Yeas, I certainly do see a problem with it. It's breaking in quite a lot of PvE content, you can cloak past bosses but you can't stealth past them. And I don't go into the IC sewers as anything else than a magblade because I can cloak past all the mobs and hide in them if I'm being chased. Sewers always used to be a NB playground cause of this. And the ability to constantly reset fights in PvP or duels is pretty huge.
If cloak is an issue in PvE then it can be easily solved by giving mobs/bosses stealth detection like some bosses in IC or certain guards already have. And if a nb resets a fight by cloaking for extended periods of time, the opponent gets a free reset too. Ofc it is annoying in duels/1vs1 if someone stalls the fight endlessly, but every class can stalemate a 1vs1 if played defensively. And if you are talking about occasional cloaking between offensive phases, then the proposed cost increase isn't going to change much.0 -
Hempyre✭✭✭✭What's my hard counter to wings or chains? None. And I dont consider these to be class "defining" skills. You have a reflect- also available in s&b line. You have multiple gap closers for pretty much everyone, class skill or weap based... Not sure what nerf your talking about here with chains.. was it the one that let you exploit into keeps? Ya that needed to go.
Battleroar isnt a skill, ita a passive. Also, while class specific not class defining.
Cheesblades? Not familiar with that class...
If you mean a properly played NB using their class abilities effectively, which clearly frustrates you. Yes, I know that class.1 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StamNB Melee Ganktard who doesn't use a gapcloser on any bar here:
If you increase successive cast costs on Cloak, Increase the base duration of Cloak as well.
Rapids+Cloak is a great way to engage the back of a zerg without having to spec into a Vampire to use their sneak bonus.
I don't mind getting punished for stepping in stupid/failing gank and being unable to break LoS as a Stam Toon, But I sure as hell still want to be able to maneuver into a Zerg to get at that sweet, succulent, glass character.0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).
Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).
Greetings
I also think cloak needs a cost stacking similar to how Streak works. The cost increase should however not come into play if you are detected via aoe or other means.
PC EU
PvP only2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What's my hard counter to wings or chains? None. And I dont consider these to be class "defining" skills. You have a reflect- also available in s&b line. You have multiple gap closers for pretty much everyone, class skill or weap based... Not sure what nerf your talking about here with chains.. was it the one that let you exploit into keeps? Ya that needed to go.
Battleroar isnt a skill, ita a passive. Also, while class specific not class defining.
Cheesblades? Not familiar with that class...
If you mean a properly played NB using their class abilities effectively, which clearly frustrates you. Yes, I know that class.
If you look for a wings counter in 2018 ESO, you have bigger problems that I can't help with.
Battleroar was nerfed because cheeseblades complained that they couldn't one shot blockcasting DKs with their 3 proc 30k burst setups. and it is class defining passive, essentialy what makes Dk a better tank than any other class, because its sustain even while blocking.2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It’s true. Streak is in no way comparable. It’s range is way less of your average gap closer. It has its own mini-root attached (you can only streak into direction you’re currently facing, making the route quite predictable). It doesn’t purge snares, most notably the ones from gap closers. The only time Streak is a viable escape mechanic is if you had range to begin with. And that’s when I don’t need Streak to begin with - I only want to escape when I’m in melee range. Besides, unlike cloak the Sorc of course can be targeted. I don’t know why Streak is even part of the discussion. Leave your #nerfSorc which only serves to derail from the purpose of the thread out of here please.Edited by Feanor on February 26, 2018 7:55PMMain characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).
Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).
Greetings
I also think cloak needs a cost stacking similar to how Streak works. The cost increase should however not come into play if you are detected via aoe or other means.
Hmm the problem with the cost increase resetting is that quite a lot of AoEs cost more than cloak itself. For example I try to reveal NBs with Razor Armor on DK and Streak on Sorc, but either of those costs more than a NB cloaking. Doesn't prevent magblades from liberally using cloak to achieve invisibility. On the other hand I fully understand that a broken Cloak has offered little benefit to the caster.
Like as a Sorc you Streak and you move/stun/do damage. You get quite bit of tangible benefit whether a gap closer gets the opponent back on top of your or not. A Cloak that breaks only offers Major Ward and Major Resolve for a little bit. Hence my vote would be to give something always tangible on activation, like Snare removal and potentially move the Minor Protection to the base skill.
EDIT: For the record, I don't like the concept of detect pots and I personally don't use them. They are kind of necessary in a game with Crouch Invisibility and perma-Cloak though. If Cloak had a cost increase and Crouch only worked at large distances (out of opponent range +28m) then I'd actually advocate for removing detect pots altogether. But Skyrim fanboys want to be able to stealth through public dungeons sooo
Edited by Maulkin on February 26, 2018 8:03PMEU | PC | AD2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).
Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).
Greetings
You don't even give reasonable claims for why cloak is supposedly "completely overpowered."
Funny how your post asks people to stay away unless they have "useful suggestions" to counter your claim, but you don't even make a strong claim to begin with.2 -
kypranb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).
Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).
Greetings
Sure, right after we give a stacking cost to wards. lol0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭kypranb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).
Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).
Greetings
Sure, right after we give a stacking cost to wards. lol
How to turn a thread into a "Nerf Sorc" thread 101EU | PC | AD2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).
Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).
Greetings
I also think cloak needs a cost stacking similar to how Streak works. The cost increase should however not come into play if you are detected via aoe or other means.
That's actually an interesting idea and lets me think of something different.
If cloak really needs some nerf - what if there was some kind of cost increase debuff on yourself while in cloak (or even stealth in general?), so casting anything from cloak, including another cloak but also attacks or heals, become more costly? Just a spontaneous idea and maybe a quite bad one, but at first glance it would be something i could live with i think (the amount of cost increase is something that would need testing i guess).
It would still be possible to use cloak for escaping without cost penalty with perfect timing or when it gets broken, but it would be less easy to pull off, because casting it too early would be hard to sustain and casting it too late allows the enemy to spot you. This would also affect attacks from cloak, so a nerf to constant stealth bursts. Could even go as far as increased ult cost while in stealth.Edited by Rianai on February 26, 2018 8:31PM0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »What's my hard counter to wings or chains? None. And I dont consider these to be class "defining" skills. You have a reflect- also available in s&b line. You have multiple gap closers for pretty much everyone, class skill or weap based... Not sure what nerf your talking about here with chains.. was it the one that let you exploit into keeps? Ya that needed to go.
Battleroar isnt a skill, ita a passive. Also, while class specific not class defining.
Cheesblades? Not familiar with that class...
If you mean a properly played NB using their class abilities effectively, which clearly frustrates you. Yes, I know that class.
If you look for a wings counter in 2018 ESO, you have bigger problems that I can't help with.
Battleroar was nerfed because cheeseblades complained that they couldn't one shot blockcasting DKs with their 3 proc 30k burst setups. and it is class defining passive, essentialy what makes Dk a better tank than any other class, because its sustain even while blocking.
Yeah sure, it was only nerfed because of "cheeseblades"..................I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Magelight.
Expert hunter.
Mark target.
Revealing flare.
Detect potions.
Any aoe ability.
Those are all hard counters to cloak.
A stamina nightblade can cloak 3-4 times before using up all magicka. He might get one more in if he uses a magicka potion. Its actually smarter to use an invisibility potion at that point for 15-20 seconds of invis, which is probably what a lot of players are doing and it gets misconstrued as cloak, but any class can use those.
Streak has no reliable counters, even gap closers just took a hefty nerf with Dragon bones. Sorcs still complaining like always though.
I'd like to know which part of the gap closer nerf has stopped people catching up to Sorcs? And I don't really see many Sorcs complaining about Streak, if they are it's a pretty small minority. It's pretty balanced as it is. I actually see plenty of nerf request threads about Sorcs on a weekly basis, rather than complains from Sorcs.
Nerf sorc threads are the result of people spouting year old rhetoric. NBs are an objectively stronger class than Sorc at this point for pretty much any content you can imagine. Also, as someone that plays a fair amount of sorc AND nightblade, I would trade my Sorc streak for a NB cloak in a second. Streak is offensively redundant with other sorc skills, and defensively is not nearly the escape tool that cloak is. In any type of group PVP content, I slot mist of over streak on my Sorc. It is a far better escape and mobility skill. Streak is good for covering ground in a hurry, but that is really about it. In a duel, I would much rather have rune cage (offensive). When fighting zergs, I would much rather have mist (defensive). I think the Streak nerf way back was probably a little over the top, but streak as a whole is not really a balance problem in this game currently. Cloak is a far more powerful tool than streak.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on February 26, 2018 8:54PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).
Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).
Greetings
You don't even give reasonable claims for why cloak is supposedly "completely overpowered."
Funny how your post asks people to stay away unless they have "useful suggestions" to counter your claim, but you don't even make a strong claim to begin with.
Useful suggestions would be ones that agree with OP. One of his fans already callled is fools for not seeing the sage wisdom or one if the best Stamblades in the game.1