PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

@Maura_Neysa what do your bars look like? I would love to use a frost staff but I simply have no place for blockade. Or for deceptive predator.

also you say this-

you have 3 Direct Damage AOE DoT Frost skills

that is meaningless, there are only 2 different kinds of AoE skills, those that are just "Area-of-effect abilities", those are like Impulse and morphs and the initial hit of Eruption, the second hit of Inhale and morphs and Drain Power and morphs, where they do all the damage in one hit in an area. these skills, if they can apply status effect, have a base percentage chance of 5% that goes up with passives. these are different from "Area-of-effect damage-over-time abilities" which all three of the skill you have listed ought to be, those being Elemental Blockade, Gripping Shards and Arctic Blast as they do there damage in an area over a certain amount of time, these only have a base 1% chance per tick, that goes up to 3% without a staff equipped or 4% with. if this is not how they are behaving, then it is a bug, like how Twisting Path was considered direct damage.

aeowulf · February 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Major Heroism is only applicable in fights where the boss or adds shoot projectiles at you, which is a small minority. And they are not shooting at you all the time. It is possible to have 100% up time on Minor Heroism and the similar generic buff at the same time. The first 2 1H+S skills: Pierce Armor & Heroic Slash are part of every tank build, regardless of class, in the same way Combat Prayer and Healing Springs (and in some fights Mutagen/Rapid Regeneration) are part of every healer build regardless of class. In fact those are the only 2 skills shared between my DK, Warden, Sorcerer and NB tanks.

I used to use shades when tanking on NB - lost minor herosim, but saved stamina - trade off for different playstyles, and this was pre-morrowind where stamina was a lot easier to get

salsahavok · February 2018

My playstyle got buffed so I am happy with these changes

Asardes · February 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Major Heroism is only applicable in fights where the boss or adds shoot projectiles at you, which is a small minority. And they are not shooting at you all the time. It is possible to have 100% up time on Minor Heroism and the similar generic buff at the same time. The first 2 1H+S skills: Pierce Armor & Heroic Slash are part of every tank build, regardless of class, in the same way Combat Prayer and Healing Springs (and in some fights Mutagen/Rapid Regeneration) are part of every healer build regardless of class. In fact those are the only 2 skills shared between my DK, Warden, Sorcerer and NB tanks.

I used to use shades when tanking on NB - lost minor herosim, but saved stamina - trade off for different playstyles, and this was pre-morrowind where stamina was a lot easier to get

Arguably that's not necessary in dungeons, where group buffs are not necessary, but are necessary in trials where you want as much Aggressive Horn Major Force as possible. This discussion is focused on end game tanking, which is vetaran trials. In a dungeon you can pretty much run any other 11 skills if you equip a taunt and still finish without much of a hassle, even some of the DLC dungeons HM. 6 ultimate over 9 seconds doesn't mean much at first glance, but it means you'll be able to cast that horn about 20% earlier than you would otherwise, every 45s instead of 55s. On a DK that translates also to more sustain which partially offsets the cost of Heroic Slash. In practice I usually weave that with heavy attacks when I have an opening, so cost is not that important.

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa what do your bars look like? I would love to use a frost staff but I simply have no place for blockade. Or for deceptive predator.

also you say this-

you have 3 Direct Damage AOE DoT Frost skills

that is meaningless, there are only 2 different kinds of AoE skills, those that are just "Area-of-effect abilities", those are like Impulse and morphs and the initial hit of Eruption, the second hit of Inhale and morphs and Drain Power and morphs, where they do all the damage in one hit in an area. these skills, if they can apply status effect, have a base percentage chance of 5% that goes up with passives. these are different from "Area-of-effect damage-over-time abilities" which all three of the skill you have listed ought to be, those being Elemental Blockade, Gripping Shards and Arctic Blast as they do there damage in an area over a certain amount of time, these only have a base 1% chance per tick, that goes up to 3% without a staff equipped or 4% with. if this is not how they are behaving, then it is a bug, like how Twisting Path was considered direct damage.

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO I play console so my ability to test is limited
The DoTs with 1% chance to proc damage are the ones with damage numbers display in orange at the enemies feet (Dot from Posion Inject and Arrow Spray. This is NOT Blockade, but then everyone already knows this because of Off-Balance up-times.
I have also heard it described as DoTs tick faster than 1/sec which is why Flurry and Jabs.
Gillum the Rogue put up a video showing the higher than 1% (3%) proc rate back during PTS, though I can't find it now. | also have my own video, but currently Youtube is not allowing uploads straight from Xbox.
Either way I OFTEN have 2 to 3 Chilleds proc on a target (obviously they don't actually stack) just the way console buff/de-buff timers work.
Because of all this (including Blockade Off-Balance uptime) I believe all 3 skills use the 5% base (15% warden passives) Area of Effect proc rate. (Blockade only gets 5%, but Arctic and Gripping goes to 20% while on the back bar. Arctic only ticks every 2 sec)

My bars:
Front: 1H&S: Leeching, Arctic, Pierce, Netch, Fortress, Forest
Back: Frost Staff: Blockade, Gripping, Inner, Gate, Deceptive, war Horn
No Tri-Focus, block always cost stamina, HA doesn't taunt.

Heavy fights like vHRC Warrior, move Leeching to Gates spot on the back and slot Defensive Posture.

What was supposed to be a no-death run, but one guys Frost Staff was taunting. He swears he didn't have the Tri-Focus passive though. Either way, the build in action. The "Ice Blue" arrow head shaped de-buff is the Frost secondary effect, Chilled. The other lighter blue with Gripping's icon is Gripping's 70% slow.

https://youtu.be/zWAoL0ymQ80

aeowulf · February 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Arguably that's not necessary in dungeons, where group buffs are not necessary, but are necessary in trials where you want as much Aggressive Horn Major Force as possible. This discussion is focused on end game tanking, which is vetaran trials. In a dungeon you can pretty much run any other 11 skills if you equip a taunt and still finish without much of a hassle, even some of the DLC dungeons HM.

No no no!!! YOU as in @Asardes can pretty much equip 11 other skills and get by, but 99% of the tanking population can't. You can do it because you know the mechanics perfectly, probably for every fight in the game. I consider this thread to be 'PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones' not 'Vet Trials PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones' and the people posting here are extremely knowledgable, more so than me - especially with non-NB tanks. The stuff Liofa posted was probably with end game in mind, but a lot of that same stuff still applies all the way down to the bottom. The big difference is the end game tanks will adapt faster than the poor souls that log on once a week and can barely keep up as it is, this patch will hurt those the most

Honestly i'm not really worried for vet trials tanks, i'm more worried about the other 99% that will be put off playing because they don't like tanking anymore and are now getting bored waiting 45 minutes in finder for a tank - you the ones, those folks that pour the money in to ESO and help keep it alive for us.

ESO used to be a lot more fun and that's a pretty important thing to have in any recreational activity. These changes remove a little more fun, again.

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Arguably that's not necessary in dungeons, where group buffs are not necessary, but are necessary in trials where you want as much Aggressive Horn Major Force as possible. This discussion is focused on end game tanking, which is vetaran trials. In a dungeon you can pretty much run any other 11 skills if you equip a taunt and still finish without much of a hassle, even some of the DLC dungeons HM.

No no no!!! YOU as in @Asardes can pretty much equip 11 other skills and get by, but 99% of the tanking population can't. You can do it because you know the mechanics perfectly, probably for every fight in the game. I consider this thread to be 'PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones' not 'Vet Trials PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones' and the people posting here are extremely knowledgable, more so than me - especially with non-NB tanks. The stuff Liofa posted was probably with end game in mind, but a lot of that same stuff still applies all the way down to the bottom. The big difference is the end game tanks will adapt faster than the poor souls that log on once a week and can barely keep up as it is, this patch will hurt those the most Honestly i'm not really worried for vet trials tanks, i'm more worried about the other 99% that will be put off playing because they don't like tanking anymore and are now getting bored waiting 45 minutes in finder for a tank - you the ones, those folks that pour the money in to ESO and help keep it alive for us.

ESO used to be a lot more fun and that's a pretty important thing to have in any recreational activity. These changes remove a little more fun, again.

@aoewulf I actually think tanking will be better at the level you're talking about. Unless you run Shield Play jewelry, blocking is actually getting a buff. One of the things that really irritates me, the QQ that drove the block cost nerf was PvP perma blocking builds, but they are getting buffed.
It took me something like 4 months to be introduced to Shield Play Glyphs. I am a vet trials level tank now, so maybe my vision of what you're talking about isn't clear, but I know my ability to tank on my one of my non-tank builds will be easier. l often end up doing that on my healer and even my current top level DPS of only 20-25k is usually enough for me to have aggro in a no-tank PuG group

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

@Maura_Neysa

all right, first off, thank you taking the time to explain and i would very much be interested in seeing that video.

just for clarification through this-

Posion Inject and Arrow Spray.

Poison Arrow and Acid Spray use 2 different types of damage in each ability, they have an initial hit, Poison Arrow and morphs first hit are a "Single-target direct attack ability" (10% base chance) and the initial hit of Acid Spray is a "Area-of-effect ability" (5% base chance) then a single target dot, a "Single-target damage-over-time" (3% base chance), function is placed on the mob or mobs that was hit. this is because the damage function is applied to the mob and not an area on the ground or around you. if they do not work like this, that is a bug.

I have also heard it described as DoTs tick faster than 1/sec which is why Flurry and Jabs.

a dot is anything that does damage over time. they can be tested as anything that procs skoria or is improved by thaumaturge. we are talking about the different types of Area-of-effect abilities, not just dots. direct damage is anything that procs nerien'eth or is improved by master at arms, it is really easy to test. you have seen these number right? http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Combat#Status_Effects so my point here is that if the abilities that you are talking about (Elemental Blockade, Gripping Shards and Arctic Blast) dont proc nerien'eth and they proc skoria, they ought to have a base chance of 1% to proc secondary effects, in this case chilled and because of chilled, minor maim.

also after watch the video you have there, i think you are grossly overestimating the time you have chilled on that boss. i mean you didn't look at the boss the whole time and yes, there was a few time while you were watching the boss the chilled status effect proced while it was still up but there is a long time between procs sometimes and i consider that unacceptable. i would guess you have between 50% and 60% up time on minor maim on the boss just from the video you have there.

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO Small collectioon of the mess that is Damage Over Time. (Spoiler below) Here is the thing, not all Damage that happens over time, is a Damage Over Time. Thurmagture effects more things that Valkyn Skoria procs.
The best understanding that I have is that DoTs as far as 1% Proc is concerned are the Damage Over Time that you cant escape. If you walk out of Wall Of Elements, you stop taking Damage even though Wall is buffed by Thurmagture. What you cant walk away from, like Burning status FROM Wall, thats the 1% procs. Most of the games AoE DoTs are actually really AoE Damages, that happen multiple times.
No one would care at all about Off-Balance if its Proc rate was 1%. However 5% (buffed to 10% because of Destro passive) now that makes sense of why people care about Off-Balance (10% chance applied 8 times per cast of Wall)
Now apply that to the Warden, 5% buffed to 15% because of Destro and Class passives;
Gripping has a 15% (Staff) 10%(1H&S) chance/second
Wall 10% (Staff) 5% (1H&S) chance/second
Arctic 15% (Staff) 10% (1H&S) chance/2 seconds
Total - 32.5% (Staff) 20%(1H&S) chance/ second
This fits with the proc rate I see in practice while tanking

Qoute"
[–]Slaydemkids 4 points 9 months ago

For Trials: this heavily depends on your group setup: 2 healers running blockade of storms is completely fine for 100% offbalance, actually even 1 is enough if he can really keep it up 100%. A target that is concussed (concussion usually has 95%+ uptime in the current sorc meta, Lightning damage enchants are not needed) gets put into offbalance guaranteed if the wall is applied to them. BUT Any medium attack, heavy attack (in case of lightning/healing staves the last tick of it) and the other morph of molten Whip will remove the Offbalance until it is reapplied again. As an example: With two lightning walls in a sorc heavy group one heavy weaving Stamina DK will take away around 20% off balance uptime. This means: for Maximum effect noone is allowed to use heavy or medium weaves, only light attacks allowed (also healers!). The other morph of molten whip will do more damage if the target is offblanaced, yes, but taking away the massive damage bonus from CP against offbalanced targets from everyone else in the raid makes it not worth it. Use Molten Whip. There you go.
"Qoute

SunDrenched wrote: »

Just tested some of these on PTS; Master-at-Arms affects both components of DK's Eruption; does affect Volley and Caltrops; does not affect Flurry.

Strange. How is Flurry a DoT?

Eruption, Volley, Caltrops are ground AoE; perhaps they are not considered DoTs.

ADarklore wrote: »

SunDrenched wrote: »

Just tested some of these on PTS; Master-at-Arms affects both components of DK's Eruption; does effect Volley and Caltrops; does not affect Flurry.

Strange. How is Flurry a DoT?

Eruption, Volley, Caltrops are ground AoE; perhaps they are not considered DoTs.

Flurry is a DoT because the damage happens 'over time'... just like Jabs.

Flurry and Jabs are DoTs because they tick faster than once/sec

paulsimonps wrote: »

Btw guys, non DoT AoE are considered Direct Damage. And AoE DoT with their dmg going out every other second and not every second is also direct damage, an example Lightningform is every 1s and so its not a Direct Damage, Bladecloak is every 3s and is considered Direct Damage, how do I know? It proced Selene. It also was blockable while lightningform was not. Not sure that if it procs selenes means 100% that master at arms would buff it but it would be consistent with what I have seen. Further testing on all abilities needs to be done in as sterile of an environment as can be found.

SunDrenched wrote: »

Just to fill in the picture, Thaumaturge has no effect on any part of Eruption, Volley, or Caltrops; but does up Flurry.

So, a "damage over time" effect is something you "inject" into an enemy which then damages it from within. This is not then "direct damage."

Ground AoE damage from "without" and so are not "true" DoTs.

Flurry I guess is a peculiar exception.

PlagueSD wrote: »

SunDrenched wrote: »

PlagueSD wrote: »

How to determine if something is Direct Damage or DoT.Direct damage = You have to stay in range and spam ability.

DoT = You hit the ability and then you can go do something else.

Yet Ground AoE, Point-blank AoE, and Returned damage all fit your definition of "DoT" yet are buffed by Master-at-Arms not by Thaumaturge.

If it does X damage it's direct damage.
If it does X damage and then Y damage over Z seconds, only the first tick is direct damage...Then it turns into a DoT.
If it does X damage over Y seconds, it's a DoT

Better???

Very good one. Yes X damage over Y seconds is a DoT. X damage every y seconds is NOT a DoT
I do know this does not fit with how Thurmatuge works.
Something I think people severally miss, is that Direct Damage and Damage Over Time are NOT mutually exslusive

paulsimonps wrote: »

Btw, for those that don't know. AoE DoTs that don't tick every second. Like the scamp or blade cloak are Direct damage. Tested it myself, bladecloak even proced Selens which only procs on direct damage.

Quote"
Sajah [has The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited] Jan 15 @ 1:02pm
It's eso, just because there is a description, doesn't mean it works the same. It's like with the "melee" word, it works with some weapon ranged skills, because plot...

Edit : so I did some test, and gripping shards is indeed a direct damage ability, it's buffed by the direct damage perk and even shows as direct damage in the combat damage display.
Last edited by Sajah; Jan 15 @ 1:16pm
"Quote
Quote"

Marauder [has The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited] Jan 15 @ 1:16pm

Originally posted by Sajah:
It's eso, just because there is a description, doesn't mean it works the same. It's like with the "melee" word, it works with some weapon ranged skills, because plot...

True, but I use valkyn skoria though and that only procs when you deal damage with a damage over time effect, and it procs off gripping shards.
Last edited by Marauder; Jan 15 @ 1:16pm
"Qoute

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa

also after watch the video you have there, i think you are grossly overestimating the time you have chilled on that boss. i mean you didn't look at the boss the whole time and yes, there was a few time while you were watching the boss the chilled status effect proced while it was still up but there is a long time between procs sometimes and i consider that unacceptable. i would guess you have between 50% and 60% up time on minor maim on the boss just from the video you have there.

I'm also not running Wall because I needed the interupt, and not dropping Gripping very often becuase I can't CC her, the Healer is focusing on the DDs, and the spiders are rarely close enough. So running at a Proc rate of 10/15% instead makes a lot of sense.

Better? Now I am running an extra Frost in Permafrost ulti, but everything near me every time I look all is Minor Maimed

https://youtu.be/nnhYhY9-TpA

BGs, staying focused on a single target more

https://youtu.be/Lipc4O9qgr8

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

Can you just link to the forum thread you copy pasted? I mean it says 9 months ago and things change, so I am interested to see the source for that.

I am open to the possibility that I am wrong, you make a good point with "Damage Over Time that you cant escape". Even with your broken English way of explaining things, My only problem with this is that there is no magic based ablity that does this. I mean have an AOE hit that puts a dot on each mob. Like acid spray does, there used to be with elemental ring but they changed that one.

I don't consider selenes a good way to judge is something is direct damage or not. It says "direct melee Damage", this is different wording then simply "direct damage" like in nerienith. They ought to have tested to see if blade cloak proced skoria or nerienith.

And then this-

Thurmagture effects more things that Valkyn Skoria procs

Name three.

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Thats multiple sources including Redit.

Why test a melee skill with a monster set that says Direct melee vs Direct?
Also I tried Selene on my Stamina Warden with Sub (direct), Dive (Direct), Posion Inject (Direct portion), Acid Spray (Direct portion), Caltrops (Direct on explode?), Endless Hail, Lightweight Trap. Maybe 1 proc a minute. (less than a month ago)

Been a while but Velkin Skoria was crap on my mag DK (maybe 4 months ago) range build Blockade and what ever else I was using wasn't enough to make it proc either

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Thurmagture effects more things that Valkyn Skoria procs

Name three.

Flurry, Jabs

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

. Thats multiple sources including Redit.
.

So? Just find the links and link them.

.Why test a melee skill with a monster set that says Direct melee vs Direct?

For consistencies sake. Simple. What zos considers "direct melee" might be different then simply "direct".

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. Thats multiple sources including Redit.
.

So? Just find the links and link them.

.Why test a melee skill with a monster set that says Direct melee vs Direct?

For consistencies sake. Simple. What zos considers "direct melee" might be different then simply "direct".

Your argument against Damages that happens multiple times is the same as DoTs is that not all Direct Damage from stamina skills are Direct melee Damage?

I may or may not actually try and find all the stuff I qouted. Also you where in several of those conversations. So you could also check your own history (your arguments there didn't actually apply to this situation or contradict anything said here, so I didn't qoute any of it.)

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

Your argument against Damages that happens multiple times is the same as DoTs is that not all Direct Damage from stamina skills are Direct melee Damage

?

actually the reason i am going through all this is because i wouldn't leave minor miam up to chance, however high. simple as that. on top of that you are leaving an extra .6 ulti a second on the table, both of these things you are from not using heroic slash.

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Your argument against Damages that happens multiple times is the same as DoTs is that not all Direct Damage from stamina skills are Direct melee Damage

?

actually the reason i am going through all this is because i wouldn't leave minor miam up to chance, however high. simple as that. on top of that you are leaving an extra .6 ulti a second on the table, both of these things you are from not using heroic slash.

Heroism, wear Shalks if you want.
I'm covering up to 6 targets with 3 cast. Heroic is 1 enemy per cast and no CC
Crowd Control is the tanks job, not buffing the DPS. Besides, I am sitting on my War Horn EVERY time theres more than 2. Unless the group is actually good enough to be going for every 10 seconds instead of 30. Then types usually trying to make groups like that usually *** me off before the run even starts

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

Shalks? Is that really your response? I mean I was this close to seeing eye to eye with you, even after the clearly wrong "smoking DK on the CC capability" (dks have that in the bag with ONE skill, one "cast", choking talons, guaranteed AOE minor maim that last for 7 seconds, damaging synergy and a full second longer immobilize then gripping shards.) Herioc slash also does have a slow that last for only 4 seconds now, so it does have CC.

There is this "Crowd Control is the tanks job, not buffing the DPS". It is both, beyond the the fact you crowd control to make it easier for your dps to kill things, both by stoping your dps from getting hit and by stacking them to burn the mobs down faster. Tanks don't need sets that buff their own survaibiltiy, If they are any good that is. So you where sets that buff your team. Either directly, ebon, or indirect, dragonguard, alkosh, torugs pact. Not sure how you think different.

Good day.

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Shalks? Is that really your response? I mean I was this close to seeing eye to eye with you, even after the clearly wrong "smoking DK on the CC capability" (dks have that in the bag with ONE skill, one "cast", choking talons, guaranteed AOE minor maim that last for 7 seconds, damaging synergy and a full second longer immobilize then gripping shards.) Herioc slash also does have a slow that last for only 4 seconds now, so it does have CC.

There is this "Crowd Control is the tanks job, not buffing the DPS". It is both, beyond the the fact you crowd control to make it easier for your dps to kill things, both by stoping your dps from getting hit and by stacking them to burn the mobs down faster. Tanks don't need sets that buff their own survaibiltiy, If they are any good that is. So you where sets that buff your team. Either directly, ebon, or indirect, dragonguard, alkosh, torugs pact. Not sure how you think different.

Good day.

LMAO 1 Skill I cast Gripping cc Same as Talons AND 30% slow, AND now still does its damage whether the enemy is cc-able or not. Sure the cc from that skill is I second longer, but that doesn't matter because Deep Freeze will just re-cc off of the same cast, and the Minor Maim with it.
Shalks is Health, Spell Damage, Spell Crit, Ulti, not exactly what I'd call selfish. DK has to every 4 second cast the same skill to do what a Warden does just by maintaining their buffs

All trying to out DPS mechanics gets you is a Vet SO run with no deaths except on the Manikora because you have a full legion of Target Dummy Warriors.

In Ebon & Alkosh in Cradle (orbs are bugged)
Wearing Troll King in vSO and run Leeching, so that would be out everywhere
Running Merida's in PvP because I'm making them miss my alleys

And honestly the number of DKs not running Talons is pretty mind blowing considering it's as essential as Pierce Armor. Most seem to rely on slash for their maim...

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Shalks? Is that really your response? I mean I was this close to seeing eye to eye with you, even after the clearly wrong "smoking DK on the CC capability" (dks have that in the bag with ONE skill, one "cast", choking talons, guaranteed AOE minor maim that last for 7 seconds, damaging synergy and a full second longer immobilize then gripping shards.) Herioc slash also does have a slow that last for only 4 seconds now, so it does have CC.

There is this "Crowd Control is the tanks job, not buffing the DPS". It is both, beyond the the fact you crowd control to make it easier for your dps to kill things, both by stoping your dps from getting hit and by stacking them to burn the mobs down faster. Tanks don't need sets that buff their own survaibiltiy, If they are any good that is. So you where sets that buff your team. Either directly, ebon, or indirect, dragonguard, alkosh, torugs pact. Not sure how you think different.

Good day.

LMAO 1 Skill I cast Gripping cc Same as Talons AND 30% slow, AND now still does its damage whether the enemy is cc-able or not. Sure the cc from that skill is I second longer, but that doesn't matter because Deep Freeze will just re-cc off of the same cast, and the Minor Maim with it.
Shalks is Health, Spell Damage, Spell Crit, Ulti, not exactly what I'd call selfish. DK has to every 4 second cast the same skill to do what a Warden does just by maintaining their buffs

All trying to out DPS mechanics gets you is a Vet SO run with no deaths except on the Manikora because you have a full legion of Target Dummy Warriors.

In Ebon & Alkosh in Cradle (orbs are bugged)
Wearing Troll King in vSO and run Leeching, so that would be out everywhere
Running Merida's in PvP because I'm making them miss my alleys

And honestly the number of DKs not running Talons is pretty mind blowing considering it's as essential as Pierce Armor. Most seem to rely on slash for their maim...

I said good day.

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Shalks? Is that really your response? I mean I was this close to seeing eye to eye with you, even after the clearly wrong "smoking DK on the CC capability" (dks have that in the bag with ONE skill, one "cast", choking talons, guaranteed AOE minor maim that last for 7 seconds, damaging synergy and a full second longer immobilize then gripping shards.) Herioc slash also does have a slow that last for only 4 seconds now, so it does have CC.

There is this "Crowd Control is the tanks job, not buffing the DPS". It is both, beyond the the fact you crowd control to make it easier for your dps to kill things, both by stoping your dps from getting hit and by stacking them to burn the mobs down faster. Tanks don't need sets that buff their own survaibiltiy, If they are any good that is. So you where sets that buff your team. Either directly, ebon, or indirect, dragonguard, alkosh, torugs pact. Not sure how you think different.

Good day.

LMAO 1 Skill I cast Gripping cc Same as Talons AND 30% slow, AND now still does its damage whether the enemy is cc-able or not. Sure the cc from that skill is I second longer, but that doesn't matter because Deep Freeze will just re-cc off of the same cast, and the Minor Maim with it.
Shalks is Health, Spell Damage, Spell Crit, Ulti, not exactly what I'd call selfish. DK has to every 4 second cast the same skill to do what a Warden does just by maintaining their buffs

All trying to out DPS mechanics gets you is a Vet SO run with no deaths except on the Manikora because you have a full legion of Target Dummy Warriors.

In Ebon & Alkosh in Cradle (orbs are bugged)
Wearing Troll King in vSO and run Leeching, so that would be out everywhere
Running Merida's in PvP because I'm making them miss my alleys

And honestly the number of DKs not running Talons is pretty mind blowing considering it's as essential as Pierce Armor. Most seem to rely on slash for their maim...

I said good day.

DKs unlike Wardens care about Ultimate for selfish reason. A DK who can't Ulti dump on cool down is only in slightly better place then a Templar waiting for a dead body.
Wardens though get no benifit from Ultis for the group, especially War Horn since I already have Minor Toughness too. So don't pretend like its all about the group buff, cause its not.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Shalks? Is that really your response? I mean I was this close to seeing eye to eye with you, even after the clearly wrong "smoking DK on the CC capability" (dks have that in the bag with ONE skill, one "cast", choking talons, guaranteed AOE minor maim that last for 7 seconds, damaging synergy and a full second longer immobilize then gripping shards.) Herioc slash also does have a slow that last for only 4 seconds now, so it does have CC.

There is this "Crowd Control is the tanks job, not buffing the DPS". It is both, beyond the the fact you crowd control to make it easier for your dps to kill things, both by stoping your dps from getting hit and by stacking them to burn the mobs down faster. Tanks don't need sets that buff their own survaibiltiy, If they are any good that is. So you where sets that buff your team. Either directly, ebon, or indirect, dragonguard, alkosh, torugs pact. Not sure how you think different.

Good day.

LMAO 1 Skill I cast Gripping cc Same as Talons AND 30% slow, AND now still does its damage whether the enemy is cc-able or not. Sure the cc from that skill is I second longer, but that doesn't matter because Deep Freeze will just re-cc off of the same cast, and the Minor Maim with it.
Shalks is Health, Spell Damage, Spell Crit, Ulti, not exactly what I'd call selfish. DK has to every 4 second cast the same skill to do what a Warden does just by maintaining their buffs

All trying to out DPS mechanics gets you is a Vet SO run with no deaths except on the Manikora because you have a full legion of Target Dummy Warriors.

In Ebon & Alkosh in Cradle (orbs are bugged)
Wearing Troll King in vSO and run Leeching, so that would be out everywhere
Running Merida's in PvP because I'm making them miss my alleys

And honestly the number of DKs not running Talons is pretty mind blowing considering it's as essential as Pierce Armor. Most seem to rely on slash for their maim...

I said good day.

DKs unlike Wardens care about Ultimate for selfish reason. A DK who can't Ulti dump on cool down is only in slightly better place then a Templar waiting for a dead body.
Wardens though get no benifit from Ultis for the group, especially War Horn since I already have Minor Toughness too. So don't pretend like its all about the group buff, cause its not.

I said, Good Day.

SirCritical · February 2018

No need to be arrogant.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

@Maura_Neysa i have spent a couple hours at a dummy, we are both right and we are both wrong. take a look at this

wall of elements is clearly an "Area-of-effect damage-over-time ability"

see here with a stam sorc with no destro passives unlocked and nothing into magic at all-

chilled is easy to track because it is only one damage tick, so in the picture you can see that wall of frost hit 751 times and chilled only procs 6 times, making that a chance of .7%, which is close enough to 1%

the fact that wall is an "Area-of-effect damage-over-time ability", i did the same on my warden with all the destro passives unlocked, results here-

you will see that blockade hits for 788 times but only procs chilled 30 times. making that a 3.8% chance, close enough to the 2% it ought to be. or the 4 maybe if the warden's "Glacial Presence" was applying to it as well, though it should not be as it says, specifically "winters embrace" int eh description, see here, "Increase chance of applying Chilled to enemies with Winter's Embrace abilities by 200%"

so i was right about wall.

now you were right about gripping shards, it is procing chilled like an "Area-of-effect ability" ie 5%, see here-

as you can see, out of 778 damage ticks, chilled proced 98 times, which is 12.5% of the time. closer to 15% then the 3 or 4% that it would be if the game classified as an "Area-of-effect damage-over-time ability". you were correct with this skill, so good job.

then there is arctic blast. this skill is counting as a "Single-target direct attack ability" as you can see here-

out of 592 ticks of damage, chilled proced a staggering 179 times, meaning a proc rate of 30%. without the wardens passive, that would go down to 10%. so we were both wrong about this ability.

both arctic blast and gripping shards were tested with no destro staff equipped, only s/b. so add 10% chance to arctic blast and 5% chance to gripping shards if you have a destro staff equipped .

i believe all three of the aforementioned skills ought to be the same, as they all do damage over time and they all do it in an area, wither around you or on the ground. i would classify arctic blast and gripping shards behavior as bugs.

now i do not wish to get back into an argument, you are dead set on not using heroic slash, i will not stop using it and i like the heals i can put out with polar wind but with this data, the kind i know you can't get by being a console, we are both more informed and anyone else that see this data can make a more informed decision.

good day.

aeowulf · February 2018

I think I had more Templar tanks today in pugs than DK or warden...

re all the above, nice research! Paper only goes so far, cannot take in to consideration peoples playstyles.

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa i have spent a couple hours at a dummy, we are both right and we are both wrong. take a look at this

wall of elements is clearly an "Area-of-effect damage-over-time ability"

see here with a stam sorc with no destro passives unlocked and nothing into magic at all-

chilled is easy to track because it is only one damage tick, so in the picture you can see that wall of frost hit 751 times and chilled only procs 6 times, making that a chance of .7%, which is close enough to 1%

the fact that wall is an "Area-of-effect damage-over-time ability", i did the same on my warden with all the destro passives unlocked, results here-

you will see that blockade hits for 788 times but only procs chilled 30 times. making that a 3.8% chance, close enough to the 2% it ought to be. or the 4 maybe if the warden's "Glacial Presence" was applying to it as well, though it should not be as it says, specifically "winters embrace" int eh description, see here, "Increase chance of applying Chilled to enemies with Winter's Embrace abilities by 200%"

so i was right about wall.

now you were right about gripping shards, it is procing chilled like an "Area-of-effect ability" ie 5%, see here-

as you can see, out of 778 damage ticks, chilled proced 98 times, which is 12.5% of the time. closer to 15% then the 3 or 4% that it would be if the game classified as an "Area-of-effect damage-over-time ability". you were correct with this skill, so good job.

then there is arctic blast. this skill is counting as a "Single-target direct attack ability" as you can see here-
out of 592 ticks of damage, chilled proced a staggering 179 times, meaning a proc rate of 30%. without the wardens passive, that would go down to 10%. so we were both wrong about this ability.

both arctic blast and gripping shards were tested with no destro staff equipped, only s/b. so add 10% chance to arctic blast and 5% chance to gripping shards if you have a destro staff equipped .

i believe all three of the aforementioned skills ought to be the same, as they all do damage over time and they all do it in an area, wither around you or on the ground. i would classify arctic blast and gripping shards behavior as bugs.

now i do not wish to get back into an argument, you are dead set on not using heroic slash, i will not stop using it and i like the heals i can put out with polar wind but with this data, the kind i know you can't get by being a console, we are both more informed and anyone else that see this data can make a more informed decision.

good day.

If it is a bug, its the kind ZOS doesn't do anything about. Gilliam the Rogue had a video up from PTS showing the case (no combat log though)
I'm suprised Wall is 1% because that really means forcing healers into back bar Lighting is a huge waste, because they are barely proc'ing Off-Balance. Where as 70% slow would be far more utility or for example my DK healer, Eruption a better only damage skill to run (trials healer, no DPS, just looking to get my own Ele Drain.)

Gripping is what expected just from may own experiences.

Arctic is surprising but makes sense. While it does say AOE it also reads a lot like a damage returned skill. It also fits with why in the begaining when I tried to run Polar Wind and just use Wall and Gripping, it wasn't high enough to be effective. I'd be willing to bet thats why even other experanced Warden tanks (like you) don't believe me when I say 100% up time and perma-root. You have to run all three skills to get the up-time. That 10% of my max health heal for someone else is appealing, but 30% chance at Minor Maim is far more, especially since it going to be up whether everything is going smoothly or a train wreck.

That is the cost of a Warden tank, nothing is instant. No instant Stam back, no instant Maim, no instant full health (even the Forest), Gate takes longer than chains. The counter is if you have the patients and skill, it does everything better. Everything except take the hit (aka The Warrior's HA)

Asardes · February 2018

So the effects of ice abilities have even worse Minor Maim uptime than I expected. This means that my point about Heroic Slash is even more valid, since you can't really afford to have high downtimes on Minor Maim, with hard hitting bosses. Few people realize, but applying Minor Maim to the boss also decreases the damage taken by players from mechanics linked to that boss, but not directly cast by it. In this case, if you really don't want to use Heroic Slash and/or need to debuff multiple enemies, a good alternative is Thurvokun monster set. If the boss constantly attacks you - which is true in most fights - you can have close to 100% up time on that set, since the cooldown is equal to the effect duration. Also ground based AoE DoTs are very effective at grabbing and keeping aggro if you don't want to re-taunt the adds too, so the pool will have further benefits.

Thurvokun (Fang Lair)

1 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(2 items) When a nearby enemy damages you, summon a growing pool of desecrated bile for 8 seconds. Enemies in the bile receive 430 Disease Damage every 1 second and are afflicted with Minor Maim and Minor Defile, reducing their damage done and healing received by 15%. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Asardes wrote: »

So the effects of ice abilities have even worse Minor Maim uptime than I expected. This means that my point about Heroic Slash is even more valid, since you can't really afford to have high downtimes on Minor Maim, with hard hitting bosses. Few people realize, but applying Minor Maim to the boss also decreases the damage taken by players from mechanics linked to that boss, but not directly cast by it. In this case, if you really don't want to use Heroic Slash and/or need to debuff multiple enemies, a good alternative is Thurvokun monster set. If the boss constantly attacks you - which is true in most fights - you can have close to 100% up time on that set, since the cooldown is equal to the effect duration. Also ground based AoE DoTs are very effective at grabbing and keeping aggro if you don't want to re-taunt the adds too, so the pool will have further benefits.

Thurvokun (Fang Lair)

1 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(2 items) When a nearby enemy damages you, summon a growing pool of desecrated bile for 8 seconds. Enemies in the bile receive 430 Disease Damage every 1 second and are afflicted with Minor Maim and Minor Defile, reducing their damage done and healing received by 15%. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.

Wow did you even read Lightspeeds post?
10 second shill with 30% (40% with Frost staff) proc chance every 2 seconds
12 second skill with 15% (20% with Frost staff) proc chance buy second
8 second skill with 2% proe chance every 1 second
so 32% chance to proc a 5 second de-buff (think I remember it getting nerfed to 4) every second. Not only is it 100% uptime on Minor Miam, its damn mean that for Deep Freeze.

Just goes back to what I said earlier. Over and oven I see stuck in these ways DK tank builds being applied to Wardens.
By the way why the hell are you trying to run Minor Defile in PvE, and if you are set on running it, maybe try Corrupting Pollen with Major Defile instead.
Of course, don't know why I even bring it up. I don't really want a bunch of people rummy around out there watering down the uniqueness of my builds. Just needs to be enough to stop people fun QQ before the run.

Asardes · February 2018

Probability of an outcome composed of different events is not the sum of probability

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Probability of an outcome composed of different events is not the sum of probability

Go test it your self or don't. Lightspeed tested it, I've been running the build for 9 months, you have what?? expectations? You've added nothing of value to the conversation.