PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

aeowulf

The only issue with perma-blocking is block casting. Remove that and people will have to make a choice. Would need tweaking like not letting someone cast for a period of releasing block.

victoriana-blue

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

victoriana-blue wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Why not simply increase the cost to block in PvP? It could be in the battle spirit, sort of how healing effects are halved etc.

Because it's a PvE change too - ZOS has been working toward "tactical blocking" for at least a year now (if you include the development time for HoF).

I’m not even sure how some content can be overcome without full blocking for the duration. Axes is VAA come to mind. If you have a few on you, I definitely don’t have time to heavy attack while one of em lays me flat and go cleaving the group with abandon.

If those numbers are right, and blocking is going to increase by a factor of 3, then I can’t see how you can maintain your stamina.

Can anyone that’s tested on PTS verify how significant the block penalty is now?



Is this all some secret mischief by Sheogorath to absolutely require tanks to max their Mage Guild for Equilibrium?!

Go back to the beginning of the thread, Liofa's math is for end game vet trial tanks who had their block cost down to "Wrobel didn't like this" numbers. For the people who had block cost under 400 stamina/block, they're going to see a big change. For those of us who weren't that far down - I only have 20% in block cost reduction CP, for example, because I was building for vet dungeon pugs - we won't see much of a change afaict.. not that we were running those trials in the first place.

I 100% agree that the "new" direction has to be backed by content that allows for heavy attack regen, especially but not exclusively the axes. Who knows, maybe it'll be rebalanced with the new block cost instead of leaderboard runs and ZOS actually narrows the gap.

aeowulf

I feel the trials were <meant> to have two tanks, but DK have been so strong in that role they have allowed for a single tank in most trials, which makes it easier as the extra body can be DPS, reducing the fight duration significantly (potentially ~ 10%)

It may signal the beginning of the end for only taking one tank to a trial, which may not be a bad thing. If that's the case, ZoS should communicate this is the direction they'd like a little clearer - it will stop 90% of the complaints and we can start adjusting to their vision.

Bevik

aeowulf wrote: »

I feel the trials were <meant> to have two tanks, but DK have been so strong in that role they have allowed for a single tank in most trials, which makes it easier as the extra body can be DPS, reducing the fight duration significantly (potentially ~ 10%)

It may signal the beginning of the end for only taking one tank to a trial, which may not be a bad thing. If that's the case, ZoS should communicate this is the direction they'd like a little clearer - it will stop 90% of the complaints and we can start adjusting to their vision.

My thoughts. They shoul communicate like 'Look guys we gonna do these changes, let's see how they go and also they are preparations for some other changes.' - that's it.

Asardes

aeowulf wrote: »

The only issue with perma-blocking is block casting. Remove that and people will have to make a choice. Would need tweaking like not letting someone cast for a period of releasing block.

That will screw up things to the point of making the game unplayable. What if casting GDB dropped block on the Warrior in vHRC? Or casting spells would break block at the Stone Atronach in vAA? You would endlessly wipe there. Such comments clearly lay bare your inexperience in end game content.

helena21

Ah thank you for that post Liofa... Out of all this part I found this one really hilarious:

"However, we noticed that a large gap formed between regular players and hardcore tanks where the Stamina Block Cost was too expensive for the former and almost insignificant for the latter"

OK, then -as many people said already- is that not a simple L2P issue? =D

I mean, no offence, I also had that when i first started the game but I "educated" myself by observing (and losing to) better players. I bet many people start like that, so what exactly are you trying to achieve? Why balance a supposedly "gap" if it's only a matter of reading a little bit more and improving? I don't get that. And if the argument is lack of CP, then it shouldn't because CP comes inevitably... (and again why not try the non-CP campaign for that).

Bottom line, I find the mentality of making everyone average for the sake of "balance" is completely wrong and off putting. For those who want to stay casual then sure stay casual, but for those who are better and spent time to become better then I am sorry but one should either accept this fact or try harder

Asardes

Well I've decided to make a special build for tanking vet DLC dungeons w/o healer on non-DK classes, based around healing sets: 5 Leeching Plate 5 Bahrarha's Curse 2 Scourge Harvester. I will try vBF HM w/o on my Warden again once I complete it. As for the DK, for dungeons and trial off-tanking, where I don't need to apply debuffs, I will craft heavy 5 Armor of the Seducer, pair that with 5 Akaviri Dragonguard and 1 Choklethorn 1 Shadowrend so I can spam all those magicka abilities and never run out. There's a way around every obstacle.

Maura_Neysa

munster1404 wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Well if it's for self-sufficient taking, meaning heals, I have a burning question: I've been trying to beat Bloodroot Forge HM with a Warden Tank without healer but my heals are simply too weak to outdo all the damage. I basically die blocking, overwhelmed the heavy hits and the falling roof; I also tried roll dodging but it's pretty unreliable and end up dying all the same since roll dodging breaks block and you can't run with bosses around like a headless chicken since they move from AoE and it's a big DPS loss. And it's not for lack of trying. For one I've been trying to stack Enchanted Forest, Polar Wind, Resolving Vigor and even Green Lotus LA/HA weaves on top of that and doesn't cut it. The Vigor heals are laughable, with ticks around 1.2K and Polar Wind ain't much better. That simply doesn't cut it when getting ~15K hits 2 seconds apart trough block and almost capped resistance.

I've done the same dungeon HM with healer on 1st attempt, beaten the non-HM multiple times without healer and I've also beaten Falkreath Hold HM without healer yesterday, though it was a bit painful, and I had to drop horn for trees almost every time. At least on DK I can hit Green Dragon Blood and top myself up with Vigor rather quickly since I can easily access Major Mending, Minor Vitality and another unique class buff that make it tick for closer to 2K. As a result I've decided to abandon Warden Tanking for now since it's too damn frustrating and continue with that char as PvE DD build and especially PvP damage focused build. I don't really see how I could tank The Warrior without adequate self-heals so if it doesn't cut it for end game, there ain't worth investing time and resources in it.

Your missing the Wardens best heal. Leeching Vines 1300 heal every second you take damage, 700 every second you do damage. Which if you run Arctic Blast instead of Polar Wind is every 2 seconds plus a 30% slow and a 200% chance to apply Minor Maim (15% damage debuff) to all 3 of them without wasting stamina on Heroic Slash.
Leeching will also proc Nature's Gift when it goes to someone else, giving you 250 of your lowest resource every second. Next to the Netch it's a Warden tanks next best skill.
I've pulled off last women standing recoveries on that boss. Fortress, Netch, Leeching, Arctic, Forest → Rez
Now whether thats enough heels for the DPS, I don't know. I think you're better off with 3 VMA DPS builds responsible for their own health or a hybrid DPS/Healer, that's what I've had with me for all my skin runs. Anyway hope that helps.

I front bar the forest and almost never use it. I can even drop my War Horn each time I come back in VDSA. It takes something like Off-Tanking Ozara, or Main Tanking Saint Olms with the healers down before I started needing to rely on the Forest.

Edit: Add this after seeing other replies.
In my opinion, Warden tanks are the best pieces of every other tank at the cost of nothing instant.
- More CL than a DK, put slower to pull off. Upside to Gate is I can Gate for larger targets than can be chained.
- DPS and Leeching Heats of a Night Blade, not as much as NB but more than any other class as a tank.
- Huge Burst heals of a Templar, cost Ultimate, not magic though.
- Sorc... got nothing on this one lol. Not really sure what Sore tank brings, group buffs?

Leeching vines (or the other morph Living Trellis) ends up bring casted on the ally more often than not because the tank always has the highest hit point. So the caster lose out on the self heals. I do wish that the Devs buff the skill so that not only the vines are casted on yourself, it also extends to an additional ally.

90% of the time I DO NOT want this on me. The reason to run this skill isn't the self heal, it's for Nature's Gift and that 250 resource return. As for who it goes to, that works very effectively. Just like Honor the Dead on my old Templar tank most of the time yes it goes to someone else because while I maybe at 50% thats still 15-20k HP. But if you hit this skill then Arctic/ Polar right after a heavy hit, it will go to me. If you hit it right in the middle of a mechanic, you'll see the whole screen light up wtith heals (Leeching at least)

This skill/passive, not the Netch is the reason Wardens out sustain DK. Its 250 resource/second.

Maura_Neysa

You do all realize we have answered this block debate a million times ourselves? We dont build to be tanks, we build to be buff machines. Even now with Update 17, what I hear is a push back toward DK tanks, because of Engulfing Flames. A COMPLETELY USELESS tanking skill. This is dispite the fact that Wardens have better sustain AKA less need to Heavy Attack. Currently l find a need to Heavy Attack maybe once a month. Every PuG trial I'm in I hear someone use the words "we do that so we can ignore mechanics" Of course ZOS is going to keep changing things when the answer is to ignore mechanics, rather than learn them. (Lunar phase MoL, Hiath vDSA) I really rather enjoy the fact that Faulkreath, HoF, vAS all have mechanics that make you slow down your DPS at some points to avoid overlapping mechanics.

No I'm not looking forward to this change at all, but yes I do see exactly how the community is pushing these changes on ourselves. Yes it isn't hard or even skill to get Block cost below the 1000 mark, but the majority of players don't come anywhere close to optimizing. My 22k DPS Magden is regularly the highest DPS in a PuG group. I see, even in trials, things like Fire Staff front, bow back. Truth is there are a lot of people making do with way worse builds then you ever see on the forum,

aeowulf

Asardes wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

The only issue with perma-blocking is block casting. Remove that and people will have to make a choice. Would need tweaking like not letting someone cast for a period of releasing block.

That will screw up things to the point of making the game unplayable. What if casting GDB dropped block on the Warrior in vHRC? Or casting spells would break block at the Stone Atronach in vAA? You would endlessly wipe there. Such comments clearly lay bare your inexperience in end game content.

I'm actually talking about giving block a GCD that applies for actions other than blocking, and yes, there will be a ton of encounters that needed 'fixing' after, and balancing properly.

I have a real bad feeling these current changes will not suffice, and there will be more to come. I almost dread what they will be, but I do attribute block casting to be a possible reason for the changes. Right now, people can have reduced damage, cc immunity and cast spells whilst blocking. One of those things stands out as 'a bit wrong' even if it does mean a rework of some encounters. Worst case is continual block cost changes, and a decision that it's still not right, and then a massive change. I would rather see the big change now. TBH, maybe it only needs tweaking in PVP... I've never seen any reason for it to be an issue in PvE

Destruent

aeowulf wrote: »

I feel the trials were <meant> to have two tanks, but DK have been so strong in that role they have allowed for a single tank in most trials, which makes it easier as the extra body can be DPS, reducing the fight duration significantly (potentially ~ 10%)

It may signal the beginning of the end for only taking one tank to a trial, which may not be a bad thing. If that's the case, ZoS should communicate this is the direction they'd like a little clearer - it will stop 90% of the complaints and we can start adjusting to their vision.

Do you realize @aeowulf that all vetHM-trials are done with tank + offtank? You don't do them rly often, don't you?

aeowulf

Destruent wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

I feel the trials were <meant> to have two tanks, but DK have been so strong in that role they have allowed for a single tank in most trials, which makes it easier as the extra body can be DPS, reducing the fight duration significantly (potentially ~ 10%)

It may signal the beginning of the end for only taking one tank to a trial, which may not be a bad thing. If that's the case, ZoS should communicate this is the direction they'd like a little clearer - it will stop 90% of the complaints and we can start adjusting to their vision.

Do you realize @aeowulf that all vetHM-trials are done with tank + offtank? You don't do them rly often, don't you?

Nope never, not HM. I am in the 'regular vet trials' category of people. I'm more referring to the times where there is one main tank for the majority of the trial and the off tank isn't really needed most of the time so slips on dps gear. I am really bad at ctrl-c&v, then not re-reading my posts, sorry. I think even in vAA where the whole thing is 1-tankable currently, there will be a need for two tanks on easy things like Atronach if these changes continue. We're not there yet, but I can honestly see tank switching becoming a thing in trials if it carries on like this for a few more years.

kylewwefan

Has anyone tried VAA yet to see how the axes now that is live? Are 3 shieldplay still the way to go or something else? Are any other perma block situations much more difficult now?

Alkosh....yes or no?

This turned into a long long thread. Hard to find stuff in it now.

Asardes

kylewwefan wrote: »

Has anyone tried VAA yet to see how the axes now that is live? Are 3 shieldplay still the way to go or something else? Are any other perma block situations much more difficult now?

Alkosh....yes or no?

This turned into a long long thread. Hard to find stuff in it now.

Shield play enchants are still effective now, just that their impact decreases slightly compared to last patch. For example my block cost is 455 with 1H+S equipped, all passives, Absorb Magic slotted, 4 pieces of Sturdy, 48 CP in Shadow Ward - would only decrease to 415 with 100 CP spent there so IMO it's not worth it. If I remove one of them it increases to 537. That's 82 extra block cost. I have to have about 3 additional pieces of Sturdy to make up for that - block cost 460. So Shield Play glyphs do still offer the biggest reduction.

Liofa

@kylewwefan



Here is the new Alkosh . This run is from today , about 1 hour ago exactly . This is what I got without using my back bar lightning staff . I was the only Alkosh user in this fight . Ebon/Alkosh/LW . I believe I found the most optimal setup for buff/debuff uptimes and pretty confident that it can tank everything . Axes were not a problem at all and I didn't use full Shield-Play enchants . I rather hold the publish until I actually complete all trials with this build . There are many broken things in the game atm like bar swaps and all so I want to be sure before publishing a build and misleading people with an untested build .

For your question , yes . Permablock situations are harder but not that different than before if you have nice healers . I still had max stamina during the whole fight with only potions and ultimate usage , didn't even had to cast igneous shield ^^ I know I should have for Ultimate but whatever ^^ It was a random run to test my build :>

Lynx7386

aeowulf wrote: »

The only issue with perma-blocking is block casting. Remove that and people will have to make a choice. Would need tweaking like not letting someone cast for a period of releasing block.

And that would completely wreck pve tanking.

aeowulf

Correct, it would. Doesn't mean it isn't the issue though. I don't know 'the fix' - im guessing, brainstorming if you will. I'm also getting narked at all the constant changes to pve tanking, wish they'd just fix it at the core, get it how they want it once and for all, and leave it alone.

AngelMonkey0322

Sorry for the potentially noobish question, but I don't get the suggestion to reduce magicka cost in response to a block cost increase. Why wouldn't the natural response be to focus on shoring up stam regen or boosting max stam to offset the increased cost?

Oompuh

AngelMonkey0322 wrote: »

Sorry for the potentially noobish question, but I don't get the suggestion to reduce magicka cost in response to a block cost increase. Why wouldn't the natural response be to focus on shoring up stam regen or boosting max stam to offset the increased cost?

Because Stamina Recovery is inactive while blocking and max stam doesn't help in regards to getting stamina back. Magicka cost decrease or magicka regen helps because it allows a DK to activate igneous shield more often and thus getting stamina more often from the helping hands passive.

Asardes

Having bigger resource pool does actually help sustain, since you can fill up more when you get the opportunity and then use that for longer when it's needed. Of course, in the hypothetical situation where you have to block for the entire duration of the fight and you receive no support whatsoever, having a bigger stamina pool doesn't help that much, but for realistic fights, which have plenty of openings, it does help.

Maura_Neysa

Tested out my tank with no block cost glyphs. It wont effect the Warden that badly. I may actually have to heavy once in a while, and HRC Gargoyles will be a little more dangerous. Though l am console so I'm sure others have vetted this more throughly then I can just via simulation.

victoriana-blue

Oompuh wrote: »

AngelMonkey0322 wrote: »

Sorry for the potentially noobish question, but I don't get the suggestion to reduce magicka cost in response to a block cost increase. Why wouldn't the natural response be to focus on shoring up stam regen or boosting max stam to offset the increased cost?

Because Stamina Recovery is inactive while blocking and max stam doesn't help in regards to getting stamina back. Magicka cost decrease or magicka regen helps because it allows a DK to activate igneous shield more often and thus getting stamina more often from the helping hands passive.

For non-DK tanks it gives us more class skill casts too: Dark Deal/Encase/Lightning Form, Path/Mirage/Strife, Blazing Shield/Focus/Aura, etc. And more inner fire casts, can't forget about that!

The lack of blocking-resource recovery is the big thing though, yeah. (Since you don't regen magicka while using an ice staff to block either.) AngelMonkey, if you're double-barring 1H&S using magicka abilities lets you provide utility without draining your blocking resource, which gives you a bit more wiggle room when things get tough.

Maura_Neysa

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

AngelMonkey0322 wrote: »

Sorry for the potentially noobish question, but I don't get the suggestion to reduce magicka cost in response to a block cost increase. Why wouldn't the natural response be to focus on shoring up stam regen or boosting max stam to offset the increased cost?

Because Stamina Recovery is inactive while blocking and max stam doesn't help in regards to getting stamina back. Magicka cost decrease or magicka regen helps because it allows a DK to activate igneous shield more often and thus getting stamina more often from the helping hands passive.

For non-DK tanks it gives us more class skill casts too: Dark Deal/Encase/Lightning Form, Path/Mirage/Strife, Blazing Shield/Focus/Aura, etc. And more inner fire casts, can't forget about that!

The lack of blocking-resource recovery is the big thing though, yeah. (Since you don't regen magicka while using an ice staff to block either.) AngelMonkey, if you're double-barring 1H&S using magicka abilities lets you provide utility without draining your blocking resource, which gives you a bit more wiggle room when things get tough.

Don't take the Frost Staff passive, Tri Focus, you're black will still cost stamina,o you wont get the HA taunt (useless anyway) or the damage shield. You will still get the 36%/20% block bonuses, because those come from the Ancient Knowledge passive.
I know some people like to switch between block resources. Personally, thats just one more thing to keep track of. I dont ever want to need a shill on the other bar and not have the resources to block there.

aeowulf

Liofa wrote: »

CLASS DIFFERENCE

Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .

I just really want to highlight this to ZoS. The difference between DK (& Warden) vs the other classes is <right now> far too big, and it has been since Morrowind in the case of DK. Whatever these classes show on paper with their skills and abilities is not translating into real world usage. You do not seen NB or templar tanks ever anymore, and sorc tanks are rare. These three class/role combinations need looking at from a tanking perspective very badly, and whatever you decide is the reason why each is not desired/viable for all content be addressed. (Outside of scored runs which is the only place meta should be important.) This should really be extended to healers too, templar and warden are the only types I ever see there too. All these non-desired classes/role combos should be considered more important than DLC. You have 5 classes, with three roles, so a total of 15 combinations. Right now, only DK or warden are desired as tanks, and only templar or warden are desired as healers. You have 9/15 'desired or viable' class/role combinations. That remaining 40% needs addressing badly.

How many ZoS employees play NB/Templar tanks or dk healer in tough content? (any new DLC HM) Please ask them what they think of those roles. If it is none, then it's kinda answered the question, atleast from a desirability perspective.

Maura_Neysa

aeowulf wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

CLASS DIFFERENCE

Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .

I just really want to highlight this to ZoS. The difference between DK (& Warden) vs the other classes is <right now> far too big, and it has been since Morrowind in the case of DK. Whatever these classes show on paper with their skills and abilities is not translating into real world usage. You do not seen NB or templar tanks ever anymore, and sorc tanks are rare. These three class/role combinations need looking at from a tanking perspective very badly, and whatever you decide is the reason why each is not desired/viable for all content be addressed. (Outside of scored runs which is the only place meta should be important.) This should really be extended to healers too, templar and warden are the only types I ever see there too. All these non-desired classes/role combos should be considered more important than DLC. You have 5 classes, with three roles, so a total of 15 combinations. Right now, only DK or warden are desired as tanks, and only templar or warden are desired as healers. You have 9/15 'desired or viable' class/role combinations. That remaining 40% needs addressing badly.

How many ZoS employees play NB/Templar tanks or dk healer in tough content? (any new DLC HM) Please ask them what they think of those roles. If it is none, then it's kinda answered the question, atleast from a desirability perspective.

- I do still see Templar tanks, rarely
- I also have a Trials worthy DK Healer that I've done vHRC Hard mode on and group healed vAA (where everyones distance makes my single target Healing Ward vs BoL two target Omni-directional heal difference most pronounced.
- I earned all 3 4-man skins with a Sorc healer.

Not saying there isn't balance issues, but I am saying if you think there are more Sorc tanks then Templar currently then something doesn't add up. I main a tank and understand them pretty well. Each class has some unique strength, DK- damage mitigation, Wardens-CC, Templar-self healing, NB-Damage, Sorcs-no idea what they do better, they are the worst class to tank on.

aeowulf

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

- I do still see Templar tanks, rarely
- I also have a Trials worthy DK Healer that I've done vHRC Hard mode on and group healed vAA (where everyones distance makes my single target Healing Ward vs BoL two target Omni-directional heal difference most pronounced.
- I earned all 3 4-man skins with a Sorc healer.

Not saying there isn't balance issues, but I am saying if you think there are more Sorc tanks then Templar currently then something doesn't add up. I main a tank and understand them pretty well. Each class has some unique strength, DK- damage mitigation, Wardens-CC, Templar-self healing, NB-Damage, Sorcs-no idea what they do better, they are the worst class to tank on.

Yeah i still see templars rarely too, and ultimately it's down to the randomness of finder who you end up with. I joined 7 pugs last night (more than normal as i'm after a DB weapon from selenes) of which I had 3 warden tanks and 2 dk tanks. The other two 'tanks' were both sorcs, one a light armoured DPS playing 'jump finder queue' but it was only vet selenes and his cp made up for the lack of tankage. The other was an <50 sorc when I ended up in a normal, so i'm kinda discounting them both. There used to be a lot more templar tanks too. I am of course talking about pug-world, vet pledges, normal trials etc

You are admirable in a lot of ways for taking these odd combos into tough content, and yes i'm not saying they don't exist, but we are talking literally a handful of people who can do what you're doing, out of how many thousands? Maybe they are balanced and it's everyone else that just don't know how to play, or accept them, or maybe the classes are underperforming in certain roles. Half the trouble is peoples perceptions of these roles, even if everything was perfectly balanced tomorrow, it would take months/years for the population to accept 'non-meta' combinations and adapt their own playstyle to suit

Maura_Neysa

aeowulf wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

- I do still see Templar tanks, rarely
- I also have a Trials worthy DK Healer that I've done vHRC Hard mode on and group healed vAA (where everyones distance makes my single target Healing Ward vs BoL two target Omni-directional heal difference most pronounced.
- I earned all 3 4-man skins with a Sorc healer.

Not saying there isn't balance issues, but I am saying if you think there are more Sorc tanks then Templar currently then something doesn't add up. I main a tank and understand them pretty well. Each class has some unique strength, DK- damage mitigation, Wardens-CC, Templar-self healing, NB-Damage, Sorcs-no idea what they do better, they are the worst class to tank on.

Yeah i still see templars rarely too, and ultimately it's down to the randomness of finder who you end up with. I joined 7 pugs last night (more than normal as i'm after a DB weapon from selenes) of which I had 3 warden tanks and 2 dk tanks. The other two 'tanks' were both sorcs, one a light armoured DPS playing 'jump finder queue' but it was only vet selenes and his cp made up for the lack of tankage. The other was an <50 sorc when I ended up in a normal, so i'm kinda discounting them both. There used to be a lot more templar tanks too. I am of course talking about pug-world, vet pledges, normal trials etc

You are admirable in a lot of ways for taking these odd combos into tough content, and yes i'm not saying they don't exist, but we are talking literally a handful of people who can do what you're doing, out of how many thousands? Maybe they are balanced and it's everyone else that just don't know how to play, or accept them, or maybe the classes are underperforming in certain roles. Half the trouble is peoples perceptions of these roles, even if everything was perfectly balanced tomorrow, it would take months/years for the population to accept 'non-meta' combinations and adapt their own playstyle to suit

True, I CANNOT believe how few Warden tanks actually know how to tank on a Warden. Over and over I see DK tank builds slapped Wardens. For example Heroic Slash, I already have a better source of Minor Maim and access to Major Heroism, so why waste stamina in this skill.
And every time I hear someone say DKs have better sustain, clear indication of not playing the Warden properly.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Maura_Neysa minor herioism is why you run herioc slash. Major heroism is not up 100%. Simple. And personally I would not leave a debuff as important as 15% damage reduction up to chance. Even if you feel it is a "high" chance.

Please enlighten a fellow warden tank how to play one "properly".

Asardes

Major Heroism is only applicable in fights where the boss or adds shoot projectiles at you, which is a small minority. And they are not shooting at you all the time. It is possible to have 100% up time on Minor Heroism and the similar generic buff at the same time. The first 2 1H+S skills: Pierce Armor & Heroic Slash are part of every tank build, regardless of class, in the same way Combat Prayer and Healing Springs (and in some fights Mutagen/Rapid Regeneration) are part of every healer build regardless of class. In fact those are the only 2 skills shared between my DK, Warden, Sorcerer and NB tanks.

Maura_Neysa

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa minor herioism is why you run herioc slash. Major heroism is not up 100%. Simple. And personally I would not leave a debuff as important as 15% damage reduction up to chance. Even if you feel it is a "high" chance.

Please enlighten a fellow warden tank how to play one "properly".

Well I can try
- Use Living Vines (or morphs) not because its such a great heal. Because it is massive amounts of regen. Nature's Gift passive can tick once per second, only this and Nature's Grasp can heal once per second, and a tank jumping all over is a bad idea.
- Use Arctic Blast, NOT Polar Wind. This gives you a heal, AOE 30% slow, AOE Minor Maim and procs the Minor Life Steal if you took Leeching Vines. You're not the healer a a strong heal from you isn't worth giving up AOE 15% Damage reduction. Besides if you want back up heads, you already have Leeching Vines (which you want on anyone but you) and the Forest.
- Embrace the Frost Staff. Frost Blockade is a 70% slow and another chance to proc Minor Maim. Add in Gripping Shards and you have 3 Direct Damage AOE DoT Frost skills. Now you have 100% uptime on AOE Minor Maim and 90% + uptime on Deep Freeze, smoking DK on the CC capability.
- Deceptive Predator, Minor Evasion is nice. Major Endurance is nice at least when you do actually have regen going. Major Expedition is amazing. Yeah most of the time you're pretty stationary, but Major Expedition sprint moves meaning you can LoS a mob and back into place before the boss finishes the mechanic (Stone Atro in AA)

I've seen a few others actually play Wardens strength, @Liofa is one, however a couple other big Youtube took several months post live release to finally figure out the Nature's Gift Passive. Maybe sooner or later they'll figure out what every PvPers knows, Frost is just as powerful as Fire and Lighting.