Cooldown on proc sets like Duroks Bane, Wizard Riposte, etc...

gabriebe · February 2018

... should be introduced. I mean, any AOEs used in Cyrodiil just ends up giving you every possible negative effect under the sun, and purge/cleanse only getting rid of them for like a second before it is reapplied.Just for Duroks Bane, using ritual of retribution to cleanse yourself hinders you because the AOE damage just reapply the effect to you.

Morgul667 · February 2018

I Think sets like wizard ripose and so on are jot supposed to be purged so it still provides an advantage to the bearer

gabriebe · February 2018

Yeah but what is the counterplay here? Having to purge those effects to get a 5 second 'clean' window would still give an advantage to the bearer.

Morgul667 · February 2018

I dont think you are supposed to have a counter play for the fifth bonus of a set like this, except using your skills to outpkay the other player

I dont think it would be good to have a set bonus cancelled by pushing one skill

Im fine with it as it is

gabriebe · February 2018

But plenty of set bonuses get cancelled by pushing one skill. You can dodge roll out of a Selene. You can walk away from an overwhelming surge. I just don't see how you can counterplay these sets unless your strategy is stop hitting the target.

KingYogi415 · February 2018

These cheese/aids sets need to go!

Ragnarock41 · February 2018

These sets need a cooldown nerf.

And after that the dumb purge needs a nerf.

Subversus · February 2018

Why would you ever need a counterplay to a set like riposte? You have no counterplay to shade applying the exact same buff, yet nobody is saying shade needs a cooldown?

I agree on durok needing a cooldown though, but that only because defiler CP is making it insanely strong.

Rianai · February 2018

I'd rather see a reduced duration for the debuffs (<5s) than a cooldown, because a (higher) cooldown would be a servere nerf against multiple targets (when outnumbered or in group/zerg play) while not changing much in most 1vs1 or Xvs1 scenarios. A lower duration would make it less punishing for non templars to accidentally hit a target with those debuffs sets and would make them weaker when used on 1 bar only, while still keeping them useful when focused by multiple enemies.

@Subversus

To some extent the maim from shade has counterplay (los, getting out of range, cloak) and its debuff potential is overall much more limited than riposte (single target vs no target limit, resoure cost vs no cost, active skill use vs passive application, 4s vs 15s duration, ...). Should a passive debuff application from simply wearing a set outperform active skill usage by that much?

ToRelax · February 2018

Rianai wrote: »

I'd rather see a reduced duration for the debuffs (<5s) than a cooldown, because a (higher) cooldown would be a servere nerf against multiple targets (when outnumbered or in group/zerg play) while not changing much in most 1vs1 or Xvs1 scenarios. A lower duration would make it less punishing for non templars to accidentally hit a target with those debuffs sets and would make them weaker when used on 1 bar only, while still keeping them useful when focused by multiple enemies.

Subversus

To some extent the maim from shade has counterplay (los, getting out of range, cloak) and its debuff potential is overall much more limited than riposte (single target vs no target limit, resoure cost vs no cost, active skill use vs passive application, 4s vs 15s duration, ...). Should a passive debuff application from simply wearing a set outperform active skill usage by that much?

It's not really a fair comparison since shade also gives a teleport and a little damage. But 5 piece sets generally outperform non key skills at this point.

Waffennacht · February 2018

Again, people only complain because they recognize these sets.

I think giving up a whole 5th bonus so you can apply a debuff that's available to everyone but Sorcs is fair

Anethum · February 2018

Rianai wrote: »

I'd rather see a reduced duration for the debuffs (<5s) than a cooldown, because a (higher) cooldown would be a servere nerf against multiple targets (when outnumbered or in group/zerg play) while not changing much in most 1vs1 or Xvs1 scenarios. A lower duration would make it less punishing for non templars to accidentally hit a target with those debuffs sets and would make them weaker when used on 1 bar only, while still keeping them useful when focused by multiple enemies.

i see that sets (if Zenimax see this 1vX thing) to have cooldown on every opponent separately. With duration<=colldown. like 5 sec duration with 5 sec cooldown, or 10 and 10 sec for example.
Todays no coldown on riposte and 1 sec cooldown for 10 seconds major defile on Durok's as a born in hell evil.

CaliMade · February 2018

Can we just remove the befoul champion passive. Please?

Other than that, the only thing bothersome about these sets is the loud humming noise they make.

As a small scaler who is often hit with fear, talons, heroic slash, maim posions, Shade, and ice staffs. I can say that wizards reposte is nothing new.

As a small scaler who is often hit with Incap strike, Disease enchants, defile poisons, meatbags, standards, fasallas guile, dark flares, reverb, Snipe. I can say that duroks bane is nothing new.

These sets are amazing when outnumbered. Only issuse with durogs is befoul champion passive.

Im all for sets that benefit smaller scale moreso than PUGs

PLEASE just remove befoul from the champion tree.

Nerf poisons too.

Calboy · February 2018

Befoul must stay. It adds an alternative to stacking damage and allows pressure to come from a lack of healing instead of damage and nothing else.

The only people who don't want it are those who have tunnel vision and only want to build for pure damage.

Also, it adds a dynamic to combat where you arnt just watching how much damage someone is doing to you but also how much damage you are healing. It's a thing of beauty when you get an opponent to a point where they realise their healing isn't cutting it.

CaliMade · February 2018

Calboy wrote: »

Befoul must stay. It adds an alternative to stacking damage and allows pressure to come from a lack of healing instead of damage and nothing else.

The only people who don't want it are those who have tunnel vision and only want to build for pure damage.

Also, it adds a dynamic to combat where you arnt just watching how much damage someone is doing to you but also how much damage you are healing. It's a thing of beauty when you get an opponent to a point where they realise their healing isn't cutting it.

Its also a thing of beauty when you dissovle a medium armor build with soul assault.

Or when you drop a negate on one templar(happened to me not even 3 hours ago).

Some classes have nothing but their healing to depend on-Mainly dks, stam sorcs, templars and wardens. Only templars have access to an efficient purge(i love double entendre’s). Befoul takes healing debuff from counterplay to hard counter for too many builds. That’s not healthy for the game. A 30-45% heal debuff is enough to make an impact on anyone who depends on heals. once you can stack that to 60-70% you go into the territory of completley negating someones only form of defense.

Defile poisons plus reverb allows you to completley delete someones healing capabilities with nearly 100% uptime without even touching damage sacrificing sets like fasallas or duroks bane.

And the fact that it sits in a tree that doesn't force you to choose damage over debuff further allows you to build for a disgusting advantage. You can run 5 Spriggans, 5 Eternal hunt- 2 Bloodspawn on a NB and hit really hard. You can have your blue tree fully set for damage and have just 43 points into befoul. Proc your poison and incap for a 60% heal debuff whith a 20% damage buff to your already high damage.

Sixty5 · February 2018

I would like to see the duration of Riposte cut down a bit.

It won't make any difference when actually fighting a user of the set, but, after killing the one guy in the party that is running it, you don't have to deal with 10 more seconds of dealing reduced damage.

CaliMade · February 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

I would like to see the duration of Riposte cut down a bit.

It won't make any difference when actually fighting a user of the set, but, after killing the one guy in the party that is running it, you don't have to deal with 10 more seconds of dealing reduced damage.

It would make sense for the debuff to drop when the wearer does tbh

Minalan · February 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

I would like to see the duration of Riposte cut down a bit.

It won't make any difference when actually fighting a user of the set, but, after killing the one guy in the party that is running it, you don't have to deal with 10 more seconds of dealing reduced damage.

You only get the debuff if you hit him, not his party members. It’s not hard to avoid that ‘one guy’ for someone else.

I’m really torn on sets right now. I love the defense of riposte, I used to scoff at the health bonus until I started winning fights with so little health left.

But then lich let’s you seriously overextend yourself on Magicka use, and it’s usually on my back for that reason. It rarely lets me down, between lich and pots.

Lord-Otto · February 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I would like to see the duration of Riposte cut down a bit.

It won't make any difference when actually fighting a user of the set, but, after killing the one guy in the party that is running it, you don't have to deal with 10 more seconds of dealing reduced damage.

You only get the debuff if you hit him, not his party members. It’s not hard to avoid that ‘one guy’ for someone else.

I’m really torn on sets right now. I love the defense of riposte, I used to scoff at the health bonus until I started winning fights with so little health left.

But then lich let’s you seriously overextend yourself on Magicka use, and it’s usually on my back for that reason. It rarely lets me down, between lich and pots.

Wizard's gets more and more useful the more people you have against you. Surviving coordinated bursts and taking off pressure is super useful.

Lich is awesome in long, drawn-out fights. When you're dueling good stam players or are facing small, tough groups. Those guys will be a threat even outside of bursts, and they will strain your resources. Lich really helps keeping in there for longer.

This is for CwC, though. I cannot say how the interrupt changes affected Dark Conversion.

Waffennacht · February 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I would like to see the duration of Riposte cut down a bit.

It won't make any difference when actually fighting a user of the set, but, after killing the one guy in the party that is running it, you don't have to deal with 10 more seconds of dealing reduced damage.

You only get the debuff if you hit him, not his party members. It’s not hard to avoid that ‘one guy’ for someone else.

I’m really torn on sets right now. I love the defense of riposte, I used to scoff at the health bonus until I started winning fights with so little health left.

But then lich let’s you seriously overextend yourself on Magicka use, and it’s usually on my back for that reason. It rarely lets me down, between lich and pots.

I run both.... Shhhh

TheDoomsdayMonster · February 2018

Morgul667 wrote: »

I dont think you are supposed to have a counter play for the fifth bonus of a set like this, except using your skills to outpkay the other player

I dont think it would be good to have a set bonus cancelled by pushing one skill

Im fine with it as it is

I agree...

This sets 5th piece bonus requires the user to place himself in harms way to benefit his group, so the risk/reward/counterplay aspect is already satisfied as far as I'm concerned...

This is set is indeed fine as is IMHO...

Yiko · February 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Why would you ever need a counterplay to a set like riposte? You have no counterplay to shade applying the exact same buff, yet nobody is saying shade needs a cooldown?

This logic doesn't follow. It's not just the debuff, it's how the debuff is applied and who it is applied to.

Shade is single target, and the Minor Main is around 4s duration IIRC.
Imagine a 5 piece set that applies Minor Maim to all enemy players in Cyrodiil (regardless of range or LOS) for 300 seconds upon taking damage. Do you think that set would perhaps need some adjustment, even though it is the same debuff as Shade?

I won't even get into how one is active vs. passive application or how Shade does have counterplay (like LOS or range).

Wizard's Riposte is a disgusting and overtuned set. Even if Wizard's Riposte 15% damage reduction debuff was specific to the target who applied the debuff, it would still feel incredibly strong, but it would be a step in the right direction.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · February 2018

Wizards riposte is strong. Befoul is strong. Heals are strong. Damage is strong. Everything is strong.

Gods damn. People complain about to much damage and short time to kill. People complain about apparent super tanks that can’t be killed. This community is the worst. Go pick up a hobby besides MMO’s.

Personally I blame all the Xbox players. hahahahahaha!

Waffennacht · February 2018

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Wizards riposte is strong. Befoul is strong. Heals are strong. Damage is strong. Everything is strong.

Gods damn. People complain about to much damage and short time to kill. People complain about apparent super tanks that can’t be killed. This community is the worst. Go pick up a hobby besides MMO’s.

Personally I blame all the Xbox players. hahahahahaha!

I thought PC was the master race, superior in everything, including complaining lmao

Minalan · February 2018

Yiko wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Why would you ever need a counterplay to a set like riposte? You have no counterplay to shade applying the exact same buff, yet nobody is saying shade needs a cooldown?

This logic doesn't follow. It's not just the debuff, it's how the debuff is applied and who it is applied to.

Shade is single target, and the Minor Main is around 4s duration IIRC.
Imagine a 5 piece set that applies Minor Maim to all enemy players in Cyrodiil (regardless of range or LOS) for 300 seconds upon taking damage. Do you think that set would perhaps need some adjustment, even though it is the same debuff as Shade?

I won't even get into how one is active vs. passive application or how Shade does have counterplay (like LOS or range).

Wizard's Riposte is a disgusting and overtuned set. Even if Wizard's Riposte 15% damage reduction debuff was specific to the target who applied the debuff, it would still feel incredibly strong, but it would be a step in the right direction.

It’s not really over-tuned for a five piece set bonus, especially in a CP campaign.

Considering you can get major protection from a two piece pirate skeleton set and purge the debuff.

I don’t even. Some people.

Oh wait, I know why this set needs a nerf. SORCS use it! Yeah. Let’s put a cool down on it!

Karm1cOne · February 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Why would you ever need a counterplay to a set like riposte? You have no counterplay to shade applying the exact same buff, yet nobody is saying shade needs a cooldown?

This logic doesn't follow. It's not just the debuff, it's how the debuff is applied and who it is applied to.

Shade is single target, and the Minor Main is around 4s duration IIRC.
Imagine a 5 piece set that applies Minor Maim to all enemy players in Cyrodiil (regardless of range or LOS) for 300 seconds upon taking damage. Do you think that set would perhaps need some adjustment, even though it is the same debuff as Shade?

I won't even get into how one is active vs. passive application or how Shade does have counterplay (like LOS or range).

Wizard's Riposte is a disgusting and overtuned set. Even if Wizard's Riposte 15% damage reduction debuff was specific to the target who applied the debuff, it would still feel incredibly strong, but it would be a step in the right direction.

It’s not really over-tuned for a five piece set bonus, especially in a CP campaign.

Considering you can get major protection from a two piece pirate skeleton set and purge the debuff.

I don’t even. Some people.

Oh wait, I know why this set needs a nerf. SORCS use it! Yeah. Let’s put a cool down on it!

Confirmed: nerf sorc thread

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2018

Duroks Bane is just flat out too strong and broken mostly because of how insanely strong the Befoul CP star is.

Wizard's Riposte, ehh I mean DK's get the same buff with Talons, and Nightbalde get it with Shade, considering Mag Sorc's don't get access to any of those debuffs in their class Wizard's Riposte is probably fine as it is.

Yiko · February 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Why would you ever need a counterplay to a set like riposte? You have no counterplay to shade applying the exact same buff, yet nobody is saying shade needs a cooldown?

This logic doesn't follow. It's not just the debuff, it's how the debuff is applied and who it is applied to.

Shade is single target, and the Minor Main is around 4s duration IIRC.
Imagine a 5 piece set that applies Minor Maim to all enemy players in Cyrodiil (regardless of range or LOS) for 300 seconds upon taking damage. Do you think that set would perhaps need some adjustment, even though it is the same debuff as Shade?

I won't even get into how one is active vs. passive application or how Shade does have counterplay (like LOS or range).

Wizard's Riposte is a disgusting and overtuned set. Even if Wizard's Riposte 15% damage reduction debuff was specific to the target who applied the debuff, it would still feel incredibly strong, but it would be a step in the right direction.

It’s not really over-tuned for a five piece set bonus, especially in a CP campaign.

Considering you can get major protection from a two piece pirate skeleton set and purge the debuff.

I don’t even. Some people.

Oh wait, I know why this set needs a nerf. SORCS use it! Yeah. Let’s put a cool down on it!

Major Protection is limited to one person. That's 30% damage reduction on 1 person with an innate Minor Defile as part of its design. Whether it should or shouldn't be purgeable is up to debate. It has 12s of uptime and 15s cooldown. When you analyze Wizard's Riposte relative to Pirate Skeleton, they might appear to be in line, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that they could both be overperforming. I'm not saying that Pirate Skeleton is or isn't overperforming, just pointing out the fault in that reasoning. Okay, so Wizard's Riposte can apply Minor Main to how many people? Isn't the cap pretty much tied to how many people can hit you at any given time, then each of those players will do 15% less damage to ALL other players for 15 seconds? This has no cooldown. It's a passive zerg-friendly set. Passive tankiness isn't generally desirable in healthy PVP, and neither are zerg-friendly mechanics.
You facetiously say "Let's put a cool down on it!" but I've already recommended that the damage reduction from the debuff be tied solely to the one wearing the set, so party members can't benefit from the passive mitigation.

Do you understand the fundamental difference between one person having Major Protection on themselves and X amount of people with 15% damage reduction to ALL targets?

I also don't know if it's fair to compare 5 set bonuses to 2 piece monster sets, but if you truly wanted to do that, you would compare it to one of the following sets that provides Minor Maim:

Shadowrend
When you take damage, you have a 15% chance to summon a shadowy Clanfear for 15 seconds. The Clanfear's basic attack deals 3440 Magic Damage and apply Minor Maim to any enemy hit for 10 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

Thurvokun
When a nearby enemy damages you, summon a growing pool of desecrated bile for 8 seconds. Enemies in the bile receive 430 Disease Damage every 1 second and are afflicted with Minor Maim and Minor Defile, reducing their damage done and healing received by 15%. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.

Aren't Monster set 2 pieces generally supposed to be unique and stronger than 5 piece bonuses (yes, there are some outliers)? It seems like Wizard's Riposte generally applies the Minor Maim debuff more easily, for a longer duration, and doesn't have a 15 or 8 second cooldown like the Monster sets. That said, I do understand the monster sets have other utilities, so feel free to point towards to extent of the other utilities' effectiveness.

Another way to look at this is how someone's damage is affected by your 5 piece bonus vs. one of theirs. I know this is oversimplified and not perfect, but 15% damage reduction is just a 15% cut in the tooltip. For my Nightblade, it takes around 446 tooltip weapon damage to bring my Surprise Attack tooltip up by 637. For me, this is approximately 50% of what is subtracted by Minor Maim. Something like Hunding's Rage 5 piece provides 299 flat weapon damage and with Medium Armor and Major Brutality is multiplied to around 394 tooltip weapon damage. With just one set, you're negating more than twice the value of my 5 piece.. but this can also be applied to MULTIPLE people for 15s at no cooldown.

Minalan · February 2018

Yiko wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Why would you ever need a counterplay to a set like riposte? You have no counterplay to shade applying the exact same buff, yet nobody is saying shade needs a cooldown?

This logic doesn't follow. It's not just the debuff, it's how the debuff is applied and who it is applied to.

Shade is single target, and the Minor Main is around 4s duration IIRC.
Imagine a 5 piece set that applies Minor Maim to all enemy players in Cyrodiil (regardless of range or LOS) for 300 seconds upon taking damage. Do you think that set would perhaps need some adjustment, even though it is the same debuff as Shade?

I won't even get into how one is active vs. passive application or how Shade does have counterplay (like LOS or range).

Wizard's Riposte is a disgusting and overtuned set. Even if Wizard's Riposte 15% damage reduction debuff was specific to the target who applied the debuff, it would still feel incredibly strong, but it would be a step in the right direction.

It’s not really over-tuned for a five piece set bonus, especially in a CP campaign.

Considering you can get major protection from a two piece pirate skeleton set and purge the debuff.

I don’t even. Some people.

Oh wait, I know why this set needs a nerf. SORCS use it! Yeah. Let’s put a cool down on it!

Major Protection is limited to one person. That's 30% damage reduction on 1 person with an innate Minor Defile as part of its design. Whether it should or shouldn't be purgeable is up to debate. It has 12s of uptime and 15s cooldown. Wizard's Riposte can apply Minor Main to how many people? Isn't the cap pretty much tied to how many people can hit you at any given time, then each of those players will do 15% less damage to ALL other players for 15 seconds. This has no cooldown. It's a passive zerg-friendly set. Passive tankiness isn't generally desirable in healthy PVP, and neither are zerg-friendly mechanics.
You facetiously say "Let's put a cool down on it!" but I've already recommended that the damage reduction from the debuff be tied solely to the one wearing the set, so party members can't benefit from the passive mitigation.

Do you understand the fundamental difference between one person having Major Protection on themselves and X amount of people with 15% damage reduction to ALL targets?

I also don't know if it's fair to compare 5 set bonuses to 2 piece monster sets, but if you truly wanted to do that, you would compare it to one of the following sets that provides Minor Maim:

Shadowrend
When you take damage, you have a 15% chance to summon a shadowy Clanfear for 15 seconds. The Clanfear's basic attack deals 3440 Magic Damage and apply Minor Maim to any enemy hit for 10 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

Thurvokun
When a nearby enemy damages you, summon a growing pool of desecrated bile for 8 seconds. Enemies in the bile receive 430 Disease Damage every 1 second and are afflicted with Minor Maim and Minor Defile, reducing their damage done and healing received by 15%. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.

Aren't Monster set 2 pieces generally supposed to be unique and stronger than 5 piece bonuses (yes, there are some outliers)? It seems like Wizard's Riposte generally applies the Minor Maim debuff more easily, for a longer duration, and doesn't have a 15 or 8 second cooldown like the Monster sets. That said, I do understand the monster sets have other utilities, so feel free to point towards to extent of the other utilities' effectiveness.

Two two-piece sets adds up to four pieces, which is still less than five.

I’ve always thought the two piece sets are ridiculous, they are usually game breaking and far too strong for such little investment. Nearly every broken PVP imbalance is due to overpowered monster sets. It’s like the set designers don’t play the game and aren’t very bright.

I’m calling it. Next DLC will have malubeth 2. It’s not like they’re smart enough to remember what happened last time.

Yiko · February 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Two two-piece sets adds up to four pieces, which is still less than five.

I’ve always thought the two piece sets are ridiculous, they are usually game breaking and far too strong for such little investment. Nearly every broken PVP imbalance is due to overpowered monster sets. It’s like the set designers don’t play the game and aren’t very bright.

I’m calling it. Next DLC will have malubeth 2. It’s not like they’re smart enough to remember what happened last time.

Not sure what you're talking about regarding the two two-piece sets adding up to 4 and pointing out how 4 is less than 5. I don't understand the relevance or where it's coming from. I was only weighing the 2nd set bonus of monster sets vs. the 5th piece set bonus of Wizard's Riposte. Where does 5 even come from, though? 5 piece sets typically only have 4 set bonuses anyways. Sorry if it should be obvious, but I'm just not following

I do like the general design choice behind Monster Sets, but I also agree that their implementation and balancing has been poor at times in the past. Like you mentioned, that Malubeth meta was one of the worst the games has ever seen. However, I don't think it's fair to scapegoat monster sets as the primary cause of PVP imbalance, but that's a topic for another day.

Also, I edited my previous comment with an alternate way to conceptualize the value of Wizard's Riposte 5th set bonus:
Another way to look at this is how someone's damage is affected by your 5 piece bonus vs. one of theirs. I know this is oversimplified and not perfect, but 15% damage reduction is just a 15% cut in the tooltip. For my Nightblade, it takes around 446 tooltip weapon damage to bring my Surprise Attack tooltip up by 637. For me, this is approximately 50% of what is subtracted by Minor Maim. Something like Hunding's Rage 5 piece provides 299 flat weapon damage and with Medium Armor and Major Brutality is multiplied to around 394 tooltip weapon damage. With just one set, you're negating more than twice the value of my 5 piece.. but this can also be applied to MULTIPLE people for 15s at no cooldown.

That's quite a lot of value for a debuff most magicka Templars and Sorcs wouldn't run outside of Wizard's Riposte.

Lord-Otto · February 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I would like to see the duration of Riposte cut down a bit.

It won't make any difference when actually fighting a user of the set, but, after killing the one guy in the party that is running it, you don't have to deal with 10 more seconds of dealing reduced damage.

You only get the debuff if you hit him, not his party members. It’s not hard to avoid that ‘one guy’ for someone else.

I’m really torn on sets right now. I love the defense of riposte, I used to scoff at the health bonus until I started winning fights with so little health left.

But then lich let’s you seriously overextend yourself on Magicka use, and it’s usually on my back for that reason. It rarely lets me down, between lich and pots.

I run both.... Shhhh

Meh. You lose damage, stam sustain and one Undaunted bonus. Quite a sacrifice.