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Cooldown on proc sets like Duroks Bane, Wizard Riposte, etc...
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ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't get how Wizard's is particularly zerg friendly? It helps a zerg more when one player is wearing that than when they're wearing some other defensive set, sure, but the same goes for a group fighting said zerg. And if we're talking about random zergs or PUGs here, they'll actually waste set bonuses by having several people run Wizard's, unlike an organized group.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They can nerf Riposte on the same day they nerf Shieldbreaker.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE1 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't get how Wizard's is particularly zerg friendly? It helps a zerg more when one player is wearing that than when they're wearing some other defensive set, sure, but the same goes for a group fighting said zerg. And if we're talking about random zergs or PUGs here, they'll actually waste set bonuses by having several people run Wizard's, unlike an organized group.
I just think the duration of the debuff is too long, because it removes counterplay (not focusing the WR user) when fighting multiple players. AOEs and the unreliable targeting system make it impossible to never hit a certain target and due to the long duration even hitting the WR user once in a while will lead to almost 100% maim uptime if you don't have the luxury of a purge spammer in your group. A shorter maim duration won't change much when under focus, but it will make it a bit less effective when used by players that are just sitting in the backline of their zerg and only get hit by some stray dmg from time to time.
I don't think the set should be nerfed by adding a cooldown to the proc though.0 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am talking specific to a mag sorc. Running wizards means running a sustain set with it. There is something severely lacking in this set up however, damage. The burst from other classes however is comparatively larger than mag sorc. This is a defensive set that helps a light armor wearer from getting WTF shot from the ridiculous amount of damage available to other classes.
You're trading a lot of power for survivability and that in itself is a balanced trade off.
I won't comment on the sets use in the hands of other classes though, as that is not applicable to me.
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Devilhand✭✭✭Agreed. They need a cooldown or reduce the duratio effect AND the amount of people it can affect otherwise.
1 single person can defile or apply maim to a whole raid instantly. Is that balanced to you?
When you see majority of players in cyrodiil using certain sets over others means those are overpowered in certain way.
And keep in mind Wizard Riposte is BROKEN, so using it should be considered an exploit right now. Explain how does it proc when damage shields CANT be critically hit? Absurd.
Either way, I dont expect anything from ZOS these days, "they nerfed proc sets", yet they decided to introduce a new and far worse (Calurion's Legacy) GJ. Not to mention mindless gankers everywere too.1 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why would you ever need a counterplay to a set like riposte? You have no counterplay to shade applying the exact same buff, yet nobody is saying shade needs a cooldown?
This logic doesn't follow. It's not just the debuff, it's how the debuff is applied and who it is applied to.
Shade is single target, and the Minor Main is around 4s duration IIRC.
Imagine a 5 piece set that applies Minor Maim to all enemy players in Cyrodiil (regardless of range or LOS) for 300 seconds upon taking damage. Do you think that set would perhaps need some adjustment, even though it is the same debuff as Shade?
I won't even get into how one is active vs. passive application or how Shade does have counterplay (like LOS or range).
Wizard's Riposte is a disgusting and overtuned set. Even if Wizard's Riposte 15% damage reduction debuff was specific to the target who applied the debuff, it would still feel incredibly strong, but it would be a step in the right direction.
It’s not really over-tuned for a five piece set bonus, especially in a CP campaign.
Considering you can get major protection from a two piece pirate skeleton set and purge the debuff.
I don’t even. Some people.
Oh wait, I know why this set needs a nerf. SORCS use it! Yeah. Let’s put a cool down on it!
Major Protection is limited to one person. That's 30% damage reduction on 1 person with an innate Minor Defile as part of its design. Whether it should or shouldn't be purgeable is up to debate. It has 12s of uptime and 15s cooldown. When you analyze Wizard's Riposte relative to Pirate Skeleton, they might appear to be in line, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that they could both be overperforming. I'm not saying that Pirate Skeleton is or isn't overperforming, just pointing out the fault in that reasoning. Okay, so Wizard's Riposte can apply Minor Main to how many people? Isn't the cap pretty much tied to how many people can hit you at any given time, then each of those players will do 15% less damage to ALL other players for 15 seconds? This has no cooldown. It's a passive zerg-friendly set. Passive tankiness isn't generally desirable in healthy PVP, and neither are zerg-friendly mechanics.
You facetiously say "Let's put a cool down on it!" but I've already recommended that the damage reduction from the debuff be tied solely to the one wearing the set, so party members can't benefit from the passive mitigation.
Do you understand the fundamental difference between one person having Major Protection on themselves and X amount of people with 15% damage reduction to ALL targets?
I also don't know if it's fair to compare 5 set bonuses to 2 piece monster sets, but if you truly wanted to do that, you would compare it to one of the following sets that provides Minor Maim:
Shadowrend
When you take damage, you have a 15% chance to summon a shadowy Clanfear for 15 seconds. The Clanfear's basic attack deals 3440 Magic Damage and apply Minor Maim to any enemy hit for 10 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.
Thurvokun
When a nearby enemy damages you, summon a growing pool of desecrated bile for 8 seconds. Enemies in the bile receive 430 Disease Damage every 1 second and are afflicted with Minor Maim and Minor Defile, reducing their damage done and healing received by 15%. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.
Aren't Monster set 2 pieces generally supposed to be unique and stronger than 5 piece bonuses (yes, there are some outliers)? It seems like Wizard's Riposte generally applies the Minor Maim debuff more easily, for a longer duration, and doesn't have a 15 or 8 second cooldown like the Monster sets. That said, I do understand the monster sets have other utilities, so feel free to point towards to extent of the other utilities' effectiveness.
Another way to look at this is how someone's damage is affected by your 5 piece bonus vs. one of theirs. I know this is oversimplified and not perfect, but 15% damage reduction is just a 15% cut in the tooltip. For my Nightblade, it takes around 446 tooltip weapon damage to bring my Surprise Attack tooltip up by 637. For me, this is approximately 50% of what is subtracted by Minor Maim. Something like Hunding's Rage 5 piece provides 299 flat weapon damage and with Medium Armor and Major Brutality is multiplied to around 394 tooltip weapon damage. With just one set, you're negating more than twice the value of my 5 piece.. but this can also be applied to MULTIPLE people for 15s at no cooldown.
This set is also a great set for solo players. it's even better for a solo player than it is for members in a large group. It's one of the only sets in the game that benefits solo players.0 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I dont think you are supposed to have a counter play for the fifth bonus of a set like this, except using your skills to outpkay the other player
I dont think it would be good to have a set bonus cancelled by pushing one skill
Im fine with it as it is
AgreedXbox One | EU | EP
Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
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Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
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Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Two two-piece sets adds up to four pieces, which is still less than five.
I’ve always thought the two piece sets are ridiculous, they are usually game breaking and far too strong for such little investment. Nearly every broken PVP imbalance is due to overpowered monster sets. It’s like the set designers don’t play the game and aren’t very bright.
I’m calling it. Next DLC will have malubeth 2. It’s not like they’re smart enough to remember what happened last time.
Not sure what you're talking about regarding the two two-piece sets adding up to 4 and pointing out how 4 is less than 5. I don't understand the relevance or where it's coming from. I was only weighing the 2nd set bonus of monster sets vs. the 5th piece set bonus of Wizard's Riposte. Where does 5 even come from, though? 5 piece sets typically only have 4 set bonuses anyways. Sorry if it should be obvious, but I'm just not following.
And monster set one pieces gives bonuses too, where a five piece set doesn’t start giving a bonus until the second piece. I don’t get your argument. I think a five piece set is and should be considerably more powerful than a two piece. Over twice as effective as a matter of fact.
As for how effective it is? It should roughly (but not completely) negate your major brutality buff. Or your empowered buff. But not both. It’s more or less fair and balanced that way. You give up a lot more lucrative five piece bonuses in exchange:
Flat 8% cost reduction to spells (seducer)
1000+ Magicka regen when you fall below 30% (lich)
A proc set that hits for 8-9K in PVP (caluurion)
Around 400-500 spell damage buffed on Sorc frag and curse (war maiden)
250 stamina and Magicka regen (amberplasm)
I’m sorry you can’t insta-gank Sorcs that easy anymore with one button push. Now it takes two or three, I know that’s a lot of work and thinking for a nightblade player.
(I’m kidding man, calm down!)
Edited by Minalan on February 20, 2018 3:18PM0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wizard's? Honestly? Not wearing this on my NB or DK. Would not wear it on my sorc if I had access to Maim.4 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Are you talking about Choking Talons?
DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU2 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Wizard's? Honestly? Not wearing this on my NB or DK. Would not wear it on my sorc if I had access to Maim.
The two biggest opponents just happen to be people who lost fights to Makkir because he uses this set.
There’s no cool down on shield breaker, I don’t see why riposte needs one.1 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wizard's? Honestly? Not wearing this on my NB or DK. Would not wear it on my sorc if I had access to Maim.
The two biggest opponents just happen to be people who lost fights to Makkir because he uses this set.
There’s no cool down on shield breaker, I don’t see why riposte needs one.
Because, as mentioned above, one person can maim a whole zerg. This set is actually anti-zerg, and we can't have that, amirite?
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Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭purge could not only remove the negative effects, it could provide a 2 seconds immunity to them too. This way it may be useful against quick reapplications, and make templars somewhat better than the misery they're in now.
They are not in a misery, WR immunity would not change their status at all, but it would be a massive buff to purge bots in zergs. Not a good idea.1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭purge could not only remove the negative effects, it could provide a 2 seconds immunity to them too. This way it may be useful against quick reapplications, and make templars somewhat better than the misery they're in now.
They are not in a misery, WR immunity would not change their status at all, but it would be a massive buff to purge bots in zergs. Not a good idea.
That's up for debate, but many templars yearn for their class to be more than purge/heal bots for other players.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭purge could not only remove the negative effects, it could provide a 2 seconds immunity to them too. This way it may be useful against quick reapplications, and make templars somewhat better than the misery they're in now.
They are not in a misery, WR immunity would not change their status at all, but it would be a massive buff to purge bots in zergs. Not a good idea.
That's up for debate, but many templars yearn for their class to be more than purge/heal bots for other players.
Fair enough. Nerfing WR won't achieve this, though.0 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭purge could not only remove the negative effects, it could provide a 2 seconds immunity to them too. This way it may be useful against quick reapplications, and make templars somewhat better than the misery they're in now.
They are not in a misery, WR immunity would not change their status at all, but it would be a massive buff to purge bots in zergs. Not a good idea.
That's up for debate, but many templars yearn for their class to be more than purge/heal bots for other players.
Fair enough. Nerfing WR won't achieve this, though.
only the caster gets the buff. In the restoring light skill tree, maybe added into the light weaver passive, a line that says "after casting cleansing ritual, you get immunity to negative effects for 2 seconds". That passive is pretty useless anyway, and would help templars only without making them stronger in groups.Edited by Sergykid on February 20, 2018 8:52PM-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube0 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭
ok special for u i will be more exact.
Riposte is:
no cooldown, no matter distance, no cost, mass no limit of targets, Minor Maim with the duration 10 seconds on each one...
And choking talons:
cost 3,5k magicka , melee range, max number of targets 6 if i'm not wrong, have duration 4 seconds.
and this morf is sacrifice for Burning talons.
U have more questions?Edited by Anethum on February 20, 2018 9:10PM@Anethum from .ua1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
There we go, that wasn't too hard. So tell me, what do you give up to slot Wizard's Riposte? Given how it applies the debuff better than Choking Talons, you'd expect a greater tradeoff than the damage type and loss of DoT on Talons.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭purge could not only remove the negative effects, it could provide a 2 seconds immunity to them too. This way it may be useful against quick reapplications, and make templars somewhat better than the misery they're in now.
They are not in a misery, WR immunity would not change their status at all, but it would be a massive buff to purge bots in zergs. Not a good idea.
That's up for debate, but many templars yearn for their class to be more than purge/heal bots for other players.
Fair enough. Nerfing WR won't achieve this, though.
only the caster gets the buff. In the restoring light skill tree, maybe added into the light weaver passive, a line that says "after casting cleansing ritual, you get immunity to negative effects for 2 seconds". That passive is pretty useless anyway, and would help templars only without making them stronger in groups.
Acceptable.0 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭
There we go, that wasn't too hard. So tell me, what do you give up to slot Wizard's Riposte? Given how it applies the debuff better than Choking Talons, you'd expect a greater tradeoff than the damage type and loss of DoT on Talons.
And here we go, u can to not wear it in general, or to not use choking talons or something like for Minor maim in general, because only 1 person with Wizards Riposte (and any chance to have battleground match with no one weared it, every 5th in cyrodiil weared it now i think also) Minor maim-ing everyone around. It's animation is now like your permanent own black aura.
Thats reality, thats a reason to change how it works.Edited by Anethum on February 20, 2018 9:23PM@Anethum from .ua0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
There we go, that wasn't too hard. So tell me, what do you give up to slot Wizard's Riposte? Given how it applies the debuff better than Choking Talons, you'd expect a greater tradeoff than the damage type and loss of DoT on Talons.
Weak DoT on Burning Talons that people roll out of. Not a big sacrifice.
Giving up a set bonus for useless health and a five-piece for a debuff other classes get for free? Quite a sacrifice.0 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭Weak DoT on Burning Talons that people roll out of. Not a big sacrifice.... the damage type and loss of DoT on Talons.
I wrote 3 big things which make choking talons absolutly no comparable with riposte work, and 1 small.
But u both write about this small and like "forgetting" about 3 big reasons.
Wtf with u boys? Have no to flame about?
5th bonus of Wizard's Riposte set:
no cost and no cooldown, no matter distance, mass no limit of targets, Minor Maim with the duration 10 seconds on each one
skill Choking talons:
cost 3,5k magicka , melee range, max number of targets 6 if i'm not wrong, have duration 4 secondsEdited by Anethum on February 20, 2018 9:33PM@Anethum from .ua0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Weak DoT on Burning Talons that people roll out of. Not a big sacrifice.... the damage type and loss of DoT on Talons.
I wrote 3 big things which make choking talons absolutly no comparable with riposte work, and 1 small.
But u both write about this small and like "forgetting" about 3 big reasons.
Wtf with u boys? Have no to flame about?
5th bonus of Wizard's Riposte set:
no cost and no cooldown, no matter distance, mass no limit of targets, Minor Maim with the duration 10 seconds on each one
skill Choking talons:
cost 3,5k magicka , melee range, max number of targets 6 if i'm not wrong, have duration 4 seconds
AGAIIIN...
It's a five-piece (and a wasted health bonus), THE BIGGEST COMMITMENT YOU COULD HAVE IN A BUILD.
What more do you want?
And stop ignoring how this set is especially valuable in outnumbered situations, we need anti-zerg tools.0 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭Weak DoT on Burning Talons that people roll out of. Not a big sacrifice.... the damage type and loss of DoT on Talons.
I wrote 3 big things which make choking talons absolutly no comparable with riposte work, and 1 small.
But u both write about this small and like "forgetting" about 3 big reasons.
Wtf with u boys? Have no to flame about?
5th bonus of Wizard's Riposte set:
no cost and no cooldown, no matter distance, mass no limit of targets, Minor Maim with the duration 10 seconds on each one
skill Choking talons:
cost 3,5k magicka , melee range, max number of targets 6 if i'm not wrong, have duration 4 seconds
AGAIIIN...
It's a five-piece (and a wasted health bonus), THE BIGGEST COMMITMENT YOU COULD HAVE IN A BUILD.
What more do you want?
And stop ignoring how this set is especially valuable in outnumbered situations, we need anti-zerg tools.
its not antizerg. its anti-everyone around like battlespirit.
biggest commitment is not biggest. its only 1 5-piece bonus. of 2 sets u can wear + 1 2-pieces bonus monster set.
This set and Duroc's should not be removed, they should be adjusted to be usefull (maybe cooldown on each target separately and make its duration= cooldown) but as balanced option.
It doesn't ruin it as "antizerg", it will make it an adequate choice to run instead of OP thing.Edited by Anethum on February 20, 2018 10:13PM@Anethum from .ua0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Why would you ever need a counterplay to a set like riposte? You have no counterplay to shade applying the exact same buff, yet nobody is saying shade needs a cooldown?
I agree on durok needing a cooldown though, but that only because defiler CP is making it insanely strong.
the game isn't all about 1v1's.
Shade doesn't debuff your entire group for attacking one person, but riposte does exactly that.
And to the ''just avoid him'' dummies,
Are you serious?
Should I not focus the magsorc or magplar wearing this set? DO you even play this game? Do you have any idea how ridicilously effective magsorc/magplar are in group play?Edited by Ragnarock41 on February 20, 2018 10:44PM2 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭I am just putting this out there. But the major protection form pirate skeleton doesn’t give 30% reduction in damage under normal circumstances. Damage reduction in the game has diminishing returns. That means for example if a player has 25% damage reduction from champion points and at max 50% damage reduction from resistances the total would be 62.5%. Adding in pirate skeleton would only increase that to 74%. The same diminishing returns applies to wizard's riposte. It doesn’t matter if the damage reduction occurs at the source of the damage or on the target.0
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Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I am just putting this out there. But the major protection form pirate skeleton doesn’t give 30% reduction in damage under normal circumstances. Damage reduction in the game has diminishing returns. That means for example if a player has 25% damage reduction from champion points and at max 50% damage reduction from resistances the total would be 62.5%. Adding in pirate skeleton would only increase that to 74%. The same diminishing returns applies to wizard's riposte. It doesn’t matter if the damage reduction occurs at the source of the damage or on the target.
skeletion still makes magplars UNKILLABLE, because they can just purge the defile, BoL spam to max hp while also taking no damage whatsoever.
And for riposte you don't seem to get the idea. The set debuffs everyone who touches the wearer, Its not protection, Its a debuff.
And that debuff can effectively cripple an entire group's damage output, which is problematic.
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