The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 29:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
Cooldown on proc sets like Duroks Bane, Wizard Riposte, etc...
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umagon✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »I am just putting this out there. But the major protection form pirate skeleton doesn’t give 30% reduction in damage under normal circumstances. Damage reduction in the game has diminishing returns. That means for example if a player has 25% damage reduction from champion points and at max 50% damage reduction from resistances the total would be 62.5%. Adding in pirate skeleton would only increase that to 74%. The same diminishing returns applies to wizard's riposte. It doesn’t matter if the damage reduction occurs at the source of the damage or on the target.
skeletion still makes magplars UNKILLABLE, because they can just purge the defile, BoL spam to max hp while also taking no damage whatsoever.
And for riposte you don't seem to get the idea. The set debuffs everyone who touches the wearer, Its not protection, Its a debuff.
And that debuff can effectively cripple an entire group's damage output, which is problematic.
You deal with templars the same way you deal with wardens. Cut their healing and ensure your damage can outpace their remaining healing values. The diminishing returns still apply with wizard's riposte. The damage maybe cut by 15% but once filters through champion points and resistances (assuming both at max on the targets) the group is only doing 9% less damage to all targets. I do not see how it cripples a whole group.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Lord-Otto DW, monster set for med and heavy, no CP, survive the good, hunt the bad0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »I am just putting this out there. But the major protection form pirate skeleton doesn’t give 30% reduction in damage under normal circumstances. Damage reduction in the game has diminishing returns. That means for example if a player has 25% damage reduction from champion points and at max 50% damage reduction from resistances the total would be 62.5%. Adding in pirate skeleton would only increase that to 74%. The same diminishing returns applies to wizard's riposte. It doesn’t matter if the damage reduction occurs at the source of the damage or on the target.
skeletion still makes magplars UNKILLABLE, because they can just purge the defile, BoL spam to max hp while also taking no damage whatsoever.
And for riposte you don't seem to get the idea. The set debuffs everyone who touches the wearer, Its not protection, Its a debuff.
And that debuff can effectively cripple an entire group's damage output, which is problematic.
You deal with templars the same way you deal with wardens. Cut their healing and ensure your damage can outpace their remaining healing values. The diminishing returns still apply with wizard's riposte. The damage maybe cut by 15% but once filters through champion points and resistances (assuming both at max on the targets) the group is only doing 9% less damage to all targets. I do not see how it cripples a whole group.
Except you can't cut their healing without wearing fasallas+duroks because otherwise it will just get purged.
Because ''muh purge/cleanse'' doesn't get nerfed ever.
Because even when the guy is out of magicka his teammates purge the defiles out of him.
Because for gods sake how can an actual PvP player defend healbots and defile spam everywhere?Edited by Ragnarock41 on February 21, 2018 3:01AM1 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »I am just putting this out there. But the major protection form pirate skeleton doesn’t give 30% reduction in damage under normal circumstances. Damage reduction in the game has diminishing returns. That means for example if a player has 25% damage reduction from champion points and at max 50% damage reduction from resistances the total would be 62.5%. Adding in pirate skeleton would only increase that to 74%. The same diminishing returns applies to wizard's riposte. It doesn’t matter if the damage reduction occurs at the source of the damage or on the target.
skeletion still makes magplars UNKILLABLE, because they can just purge the defile, BoL spam to max hp while also taking no damage whatsoever.
And for riposte you don't seem to get the idea. The set debuffs everyone who touches the wearer, Its not protection, Its a debuff.
And that debuff can effectively cripple an entire group's damage output, which is problematic.
You deal with templars the same way you deal with wardens. Cut their healing and ensure your damage can outpace their remaining healing values. The diminishing returns still apply with wizard's riposte. The damage maybe cut by 15% but once filters through champion points and resistances (assuming both at max on the targets) the group is only doing 9% less damage to all targets. I do not see how it cripples a whole group.
Except you can't cut their healing without wearing fasallas+duroks because otherwise it will just get purged.
Because ''muh purge/cleanse'' doesn't get nerfed ever.
Because even when the guy is out of magicka his teammates purge the defiles out of him.
Because for gods sake how can an actual PvP player defend healbots and defile spam everywhere?
There are other options to apply major defile for example reverberating bash or crest of cyrodiil could be used. I use reverberating bash to counter healing orientated builds, and I find it works well. As much as I don’t like how damage output and healing output scale at the same rate; defile is the only way to counter it as of now. Most of the time if build has a large amount of dps and healing output their actual damage mitigation is low. The build’s survivability depends largely on healing as a means of defense. Lowing that defense via defile aids in defeating such builds.
Yes, defile does have overreaching impacts on builds that are not healing orientated, but if defile was not available then those healing orientated builds would not have any type of counter other than really large amounts of burst damage. Defile is a necessary evil at this point, and the only people who can change that are the devs.
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CaliMade✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »I am just putting this out there. But the major protection form pirate skeleton doesn’t give 30% reduction in damage under normal circumstances. Damage reduction in the game has diminishing returns. That means for example if a player has 25% damage reduction from champion points and at max 50% damage reduction from resistances the total would be 62.5%. Adding in pirate skeleton would only increase that to 74%. The same diminishing returns applies to wizard's riposte. It doesn’t matter if the damage reduction occurs at the source of the damage or on the target.
skeletion still makes magplars UNKILLABLE, because they can just purge the defile, BoL spam to max hp while also taking no damage whatsoever.
And for riposte you don't seem to get the idea. The set debuffs everyone who touches the wearer, Its not protection, Its a debuff.
And that debuff can effectively cripple an entire group's damage output, which is problematic.
You deal with templars the same way you deal with wardens. Cut their healing and ensure your damage can outpace their remaining healing values. The diminishing returns still apply with wizard's riposte. The damage maybe cut by 15% but once filters through champion points and resistances (assuming both at max on the targets) the group is only doing 9% less damage to all targets. I do not see how it cripples a whole group.
Except you can't cut their healing without wearing fasallas+duroks because otherwise it will just get purged.
Because ''muh purge/cleanse'' doesn't get nerfed ever.
Because even when the guy is out of magicka his teammates purge the defiles out of him.
Because for gods sake how can an actual PvP player defend healbots and defile spam everywhere?Can we just remove the befoul champion passive. Please?
Other than that, the only thing bothersome about these sets is the loud humming noise they make.
As a small scaler who is often hit with fear, talons, heroic slash, maim posions, Shade, and ice staffs. I can say that wizards reposte is nothing new.
As a small scaler who is often hit with Incap strike, Disease enchants, defile poisons, meatbags, standards, fasallas guile, dark flares, reverb, Snipe.I can say that duroks bane is nothing new.
These sets are amazing when outnumbered. Only issuse with durogs is befoul champion passive.
Im all for sets that benefit smaller scale moreso than PUGs
PLEASE just remove befoul from the champion tree.
Nerf poisons too.
If you got enough people apllying debuffs its a tossup on what gets purged and what does not
Edited by CaliMade on February 21, 2018 4:00AMXB1 GT- Cali Made
Praetorian Stam DK Redguard
Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
Major Mag DK Dark Elf
lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Weak DoT on Burning Talons that people roll out of. Not a big sacrifice.... the damage type and loss of DoT on Talons.
I wrote 3 big things which make choking talons absolutly no comparable with riposte work, and 1 small.
But u both write about this small and like "forgetting" about 3 big reasons.
Wtf with u boys? Have no to flame about?
5th bonus of Wizard's Riposte set:
no cost and no cooldown, no matter distance, mass no limit of targets, Minor Maim with the duration 10 seconds on each one
skill Choking talons:
cost 3,5k magicka , melee range, max number of targets 6 if i'm not wrong, have duration 4 seconds
AGAIIIN...
It's a five-piece (and a wasted health bonus), THE BIGGEST COMMITMENT YOU COULD HAVE IN A BUILD.
What more do you want?
And stop ignoring how this set is especially valuable in outnumbered situations, we need anti-zerg tools.
its not antizerg. its anti-everyone around like battlespirit.
biggest commitment is not biggest. its only 1 5-piece bonus. of 2 sets u can wear + 1 2-pieces bonus monster set.
This set and Duroc's should not be removed, they should be adjusted to be usefull (maybe cooldown on each target separately and make its duration= cooldown) but as balanced option.
It doesn't ruin it as "antizerg", it will make it an adequate choice to run instead of OP thing.
Oh come on, you lose 3/4 of you major brutality bonus in exchange for a Sorc NOT using a set that does a boatload more damage or loads of sustain. Want to compare it to lich, amberplasm, war maiden, willpower etc?
It’s balanced. I’m sorry your night blade can’t one shot a cockroach riposte-tato Sorc build, but that’s sort of why people do it.Edited by Minalan on February 21, 2018 4:31AM2 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭Oh come on, you lose 3/4 of you major brutality bonus in exchange for a Sorc NOT using a set that does a boatload more damage or loads of sustain. Want to compare it to lich, amberplasm, war maiden, willpower etc?
It’s balanced. I’m sorry your night blade can’t one shot a cockroach riposte-tato Sorc build, but that’s sort of why people do it.
I feel myself already as guy in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsN7CqzaE6A
hell, Everyone in eso win if they adjust these 2 sets. Every single person in tamriel. We wrote here so many numbers and arguments to explain this even to very new players, just read, and even try to be objective.Edited by Anethum on February 21, 2018 6:42AM@Anethum from .ua1 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Durok´s Bane:
Make it a defensive version on Cyrodil´s Crest. 5 seconds duration on taking damage, with a 5 second cooldown. Strong in 1v1 situations but less useful when used in a group/zerg.
Not really sure about how I would change Wizard´s riposte. Damage-mitigation is already overperforming (together with heals) in Cyrodil. The best solution in my opinion is to change Wizard´s Riposte into a unique debuff. A player attacking someone with Wizard´s Riposte will only get reduced damage against the target who uses WR but not towards other people. That way it´s still a strong set when running solo.3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »I am just putting this out there. But the major protection form pirate skeleton doesn’t give 30% reduction in damage under normal circumstances. Damage reduction in the game has diminishing returns. That means for example if a player has 25% damage reduction from champion points and at max 50% damage reduction from resistances the total would be 62.5%. Adding in pirate skeleton would only increase that to 74%. The same diminishing returns applies to wizard's riposte. It doesn’t matter if the damage reduction occurs at the source of the damage or on the target.
skeletion still makes magplars UNKILLABLE, because they can just purge the defile, BoL spam to max hp while also taking no damage whatsoever.
And for riposte you don't seem to get the idea. The set debuffs everyone who touches the wearer, Its not protection, Its a debuff.
And that debuff can effectively cripple an entire group's damage output, which is problematic.
You deal with templars the same way you deal with wardens. Cut their healing and ensure your damage can outpace their remaining healing values. The diminishing returns still apply with wizard's riposte. The damage maybe cut by 15% but once filters through champion points and resistances (assuming both at max on the targets) the group is only doing 9% less damage to all targets. I do not see how it cripples a whole group.
Except you can't cut their healing without wearing fasallas+duroks because otherwise it will just get purged.
Because ''muh purge/cleanse'' doesn't get nerfed ever.
Because even when the guy is out of magicka his teammates purge the defiles out of him.
Because for gods sake how can an actual PvP player defend healbots and defile spam everywhere?
You think everything that isn't used or related to a stam DK is OP and always want to nerf it.
Purify Rit has been nerfed three times.Edited by Joy_Division on February 21, 2018 7:23AM0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Another anOh come on, you lose 3/4 of you major brutality bonus in exchange for a Sorc NOT using a set that does a boatload more damage or loads of sustain. Want to compare it to lich, amberplasm, war maiden, willpower etc?
It’s balanced. I’m sorry your night blade can’t one shot a cockroach riposte-tato Sorc build, but that’s sort of why people do it.
I feel myself already as guy in this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsN7CqzaE6A
hell, Everyone in eso win if they adjust these 2 sets. Every single person in tamriel. We wrote here so many numbers and arguments to explain this even to very new players, just read, and even try to be objective.
I’ve already responded with numbers and figures. Try some simple math. I know it’s hard...
But my brutality!!!0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Weak DoT on Burning Talons that people roll out of. Not a big sacrifice.... the damage type and loss of DoT on Talons.
I wrote 3 big things which make choking talons absolutly no comparable with riposte work, and 1 small.
But u both write about this small and like "forgetting" about 3 big reasons.
Wtf with u boys? Have no to flame about?
5th bonus of Wizard's Riposte set:
no cost and no cooldown, no matter distance, mass no limit of targets, Minor Maim with the duration 10 seconds on each one
skill Choking talons:
cost 3,5k magicka , melee range, max number of targets 6 if i'm not wrong, have duration 4 seconds
You explained that Wizard's Riposte applies Minor Maim better than Choking Talons. Well done.
@Lord-Otto explained that the opportunity cost for using Choking Talons is considerably smaller than that for using Wizard's Riposte.
Now I suppose it's my turn to explain how these two are connected.
So, opportunity cost is what you have to lose in order to chose a different alternative. In this case, you might give up, say, Spell Power Cure for Wizard's Riposte. Or for Choking Talons you give up Burning Talons, of course.
Now ideally you would choose the option with that opportunity cost attached to it if the potential benefit is greater than the cost. And here your explanation about the benefit of Wizard's Riposte vs. the Choking Talons morph comes in:
Because the opportunity cost for using the alternative with the greater benefit (Wizard's Riposte) is likewise greater than that for using the option with smaller benefit (Choking Talons morph). Keep in mind this is about the morph; the cost may be much greater for someone not indending to use Talons at all otherwise.
Of course, the potential gain for either alternative is decreased by the number of allies already using any means to apply Minor Maim (they don't stack!). And this potential loss again is increased by how well the mechanic in question applies Minor Maim depending on your goal. For example, when fighting multiple enemies in PvP, the potential gain from using Choking Talons isn't decreased much by an ally using Shadow Image. It is decreased considerably by an allow using Choking Talons themselves. And is almost negated by an ally using Wizard's Riposte.
This means, if we only consider the mentioned options, that for an organized group, the greatest benefit will be gained by having one player use Wizard's Riposte. Whereas the total opportunity cost for all the players in a "zerg" using tools which apply Minor Maim will be much greater relative to their benefit.
I know this became a long and complicated text now, but I do hope you can at least understand some of it.
DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭I know this became a long and complicated text now, but I do hope you can at least understand some of it.
dear toreax, u stucked on manasorc forever? look video please.
And now we return to topic of the thread, which is wrong work of sets Durok's and Wizard's, they both multiply apply debuffs for 10 seconds duration with very small and no cooldown at all.
As we wrote here many times and u wrote again - 1 person in group can wear one of these sets and permanently debuff all enemies with simply right positioning.
Exactly this is issue - 10 seconds duration, 1 sec on durok's and no cooldown on riposte.Edited by Anethum on February 21, 2018 11:44AM@Anethum from .ua0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I know this became a long and complicated text now, but I do hope you can at least understand some of it.
dear toreax, u stucked on manasorc forever? look video please.
And now we return to topic of the thread, which is wrong work of sets Durok's and Wizard's, they both multiply apply debuffs for 10 seconds duration with very small and no cooldown at all.
As we wrote here many times and u wrote again - 1 person in group can wear one of these sets and permanently debuff all enemies with simply right positioning.
Exactly this is issue - 10 seconds duration, 1 sec on durok's and no cooldown on riposte.
That is the situation. But what makes it an issue?DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dueled a mDK that had Durok‘s on with my mSorc yesterday. Wasn’t much fun. What strikes me: There are several sets in the game doing essentially the same. Some are just clearly better than the rest. It would be so good if ZOS updated these and adjusted the other ones in the process too.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.1 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭
That is the situation. But what makes it an issue?[/quote]Exactly this is issue - 10 seconds duration, 1 sec on durok's and no cooldown on riposte.
Issue is that player in these sets can minor maim or major defile everyone without any efforts, automatic, not able to remove debuffs without almost any limits. It makes fights flat, boring, brainless. In some way similar to what done with fighting system procsets in noncp battlegrounds at Morrowind patch.@Anethum from .ua0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Issue is that player in these sets can minor maim or major defile everyone without any efforts, automatic, not able to remove debuffs without almost any limits. It makes fights flat, boring, brainless. In some way similar to what done with fighting system procsets in noncp battlegrounds at Morrowind patch.[/quote]
People have told you, again and again, that this is a GOOD thing.
Having three people in your group wearing this is overkill, so you need organization. One person in your small group can debuff a whole zerg. This set scales favorably for outnumbered groups, and this is what we need. More anti-zerg tools that aren't as cheesy as Vicious Death.
Honestly, I can only see how zerglings would be upset about this set.0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »People probably wouldn't wear duroks if healing wasn't out of control.
Gotta love that low health passive and 80% crit DMG!
But then again, nothing's going to save us from a cc+incap with major defile.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭People have told you, again and again, that this is a GOOD thing.
People have told you, again and again, that this is a BAD thing.
It's not antizerg as u try to describe it, it's work on multiple enemies makes this debuffs constant for everyone.
Communism in work, everyone in the ass, everyone poor, black hole@Anethum from .ua0 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭Two two-piece sets adds up to four pieces, which is still less than five.
I’ve always thought the two piece sets are ridiculous, they are usually game breaking and far too strong for such little investment. Nearly every broken PVP imbalance is due to overpowered monster sets. It’s like the set designers don’t play the game and aren’t very bright.
I’m calling it. Next DLC will have malubeth 2. It’s not like they’re smart enough to remember what happened last time.
Not sure what you're talking about regarding the two two-piece sets adding up to 4 and pointing out how 4 is less than 5. I don't understand the relevance or where it's coming from. I was only weighing the 2nd set bonus of monster sets vs. the 5th piece set bonus of Wizard's Riposte. Where does 5 even come from, though? 5 piece sets typically only have 4 set bonuses anyways. Sorry if it should be obvious, but I'm just not following.
And monster set one pieces gives bonuses too, where a five piece set doesn’t start giving a bonus until the second piece. I don’t get your argument. I think a five piece set is and should be considerably more powerful than a two piece. Over twice as effective as a matter of fact.
As for how effective it is? It should roughly (but not completely) negate your major brutality buff. Or your empowered buff. But not both. It’s more or less fair and balanced that way. You give up a lot more lucrative five piece bonuses in exchange:
Flat 8% cost reduction to spells (seducer)
1000+ Magicka regen when you fall below 30% (lich)
A proc set that hits for 8-9K in PVP (caluurion)
Around 400-500 spell damage buffed on Sorc frag and curse (war maiden)
250 stamina and Magicka regen (amberplasm)
I’m sorry you can’t insta-gank Sorcs that easy anymore with one button push. Now it takes two or three, I know that’s a lot of work and thinking for a nightblade player.
(I’m kidding man, calm down!)
Why are you comparing the 5 piece bonus to monster sets in the first place? They're fundamentally designed differently. If monster sets had significantly less value they they currently do, everyone would run something like 5 piece / 5 piece / 1 weapon or 5 piece / 5 piece back bar/3 willpower or agility. Monster sets are designed to be stronger than most 5 piece sets.
Also why do you think it is that people choose to run Wizard's Riposte over other "more lucrative" sets like Amberplasm? Hint: it's because Wizard's Riposte 5th piece bonus is really valuable even when compared to the other best 5th piece bonuses. You can just run it on one bar, too. 2 Monster 5 Cal front and 5 riposte back sounds like it could be great.
Address these points:
- Mag sorc and templar kits weren't really balanced around having such easy access to Minor Maim.
- Passive defenses are not healthy game design. That's part of the reason why Shuffle was nerfed, both the dodge % chance and the fact that only medium armor wearers can use it now.
- The value of Riposte's 5th piece subtracts more than DOUBLE the value that my 5th piece provides. It can do this to multiple people. If you apply that debuff to 5 people that would otherwise not have that debuff on them, you've subtracted AT LEAST 5 5th piece damage set bonuses of value. Yes, of course there's the opportunity cost of not running something like Amberplasm, but the distinction here is that you're subtracting far more value from opponents than you would gain running other powerful sets.
Wizard's Riposte is just another carry set that's dumbing down the game. It doesn't promote healthy gameplay or counterplay. It passively lets players survive artificially longer than they should be able to. It's just a crutch.1 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Two two-piece sets adds up to four pieces, which is still less than five.
I’ve always thought the two piece sets are ridiculous, they are usually game breaking and far too strong for such little investment. Nearly every broken PVP imbalance is due to overpowered monster sets. It’s like the set designers don’t play the game and aren’t very bright.
I’m calling it. Next DLC will have malubeth 2. It’s not like they’re smart enough to remember what happened last time.
Not sure what you're talking about regarding the two two-piece sets adding up to 4 and pointing out how 4 is less than 5. I don't understand the relevance or where it's coming from. I was only weighing the 2nd set bonus of monster sets vs. the 5th piece set bonus of Wizard's Riposte. Where does 5 even come from, though? 5 piece sets typically only have 4 set bonuses anyways. Sorry if it should be obvious, but I'm just not following.
And monster set one pieces gives bonuses too, where a five piece set doesn’t start giving a bonus until the second piece. I don’t get your argument. I think a five piece set is and should be considerably more powerful than a two piece. Over twice as effective as a matter of fact.
As for how effective it is? It should roughly (but not completely) negate your major brutality buff. Or your empowered buff. But not both. It’s more or less fair and balanced that way. You give up a lot more lucrative five piece bonuses in exchange:
Flat 8% cost reduction to spells (seducer)
1000+ Magicka regen when you fall below 30% (lich)
A proc set that hits for 8-9K in PVP (caluurion)
Around 400-500 spell damage buffed on Sorc frag and curse (war maiden)
250 stamina and Magicka regen (amberplasm)
I’m sorry you can’t insta-gank Sorcs that easy anymore with one button push. Now it takes two or three, I know that’s a lot of work and thinking for a nightblade player. (I’m kidding man, calm down!)
Why are you comparing the 5 piece bonus to monster sets in the first place? They're fundamentally designed differently. If monster sets had significantly less value they they currently do, everyone would run something like 5 piece / 5 piece / 1 weapon or 5 piece / 5 piece back bar/3 willpower or agility. Monster sets are designed to be stronger than most 5 piece sets.
Also why do you think it is that people choose to run Wizard's Riposte over other "more lucrative" sets like Amberplasm? Hint: it's because Wizard's Riposte 5th piece bonus is really valuable even when compared to the other best 5th piece bonuses. You can just run it on one bar, too. 2 Monster 5 Cal front and 5 riposte back sounds like it could be great.
Address these points:
- Mag sorc and templar kits weren't really balanced around having such easy access to Minor Maim.
- Passive defenses are not healthy game design. That's part of the reason why Shuffle was nerfed, both the dodge % chance and the fact that only medium armor wearers can use it now.
- The value of Riposte's 5th piece subtracts more than DOUBLE the value that my 5th piece provides. It can do this to multiple people. If you apply that debuff to 5 people that would otherwise not have that debuff on them, you've subtracted AT LEAST 5 5th piece damage set bonuses of value. Yes, of course there's the opportunity cost of not running something like Amberplasm, but the distinction here is that you're subtracting far more value from opponents than you would gain running other powerful sets.
Wizard's Riposte is just another carry set that's dumbing down the game. It doesn't promote healthy gameplay or counterplay. It passively lets players survive artificially longer than they should be able to. It's just a crutch.
There are five piece sets that grant major brutality/sorcery. Now we have a set that applies MINOR maim, and removes LESS DAMAGE than those two buffs grant.
Now if it were major protection or major maim with 100% uptime, I’d agree with you that it’s too much. But it’s not. You’re crying over nothing because you can’t burst a particular Sorc down using the set.
On top of that. You PLAY a stealth class with access to just about every major buff and debuff in the game. And you have the balls to come in here and simper about SORCS getting minor maim? That’s absolutely pathetic.Edited by Minalan on February 22, 2018 1:44AM4 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Two two-piece sets adds up to four pieces, which is still less than five.
I’ve always thought the two piece sets are ridiculous, they are usually game breaking and far too strong for such little investment. Nearly every broken PVP imbalance is due to overpowered monster sets. It’s like the set designers don’t play the game and aren’t very bright.
I’m calling it. Next DLC will have malubeth 2. It’s not like they’re smart enough to remember what happened last time.
Not sure what you're talking about regarding the two two-piece sets adding up to 4 and pointing out how 4 is less than 5. I don't understand the relevance or where it's coming from. I was only weighing the 2nd set bonus of monster sets vs. the 5th piece set bonus of Wizard's Riposte. Where does 5 even come from, though? 5 piece sets typically only have 4 set bonuses anyways. Sorry if it should be obvious, but I'm just not following.
And monster set one pieces gives bonuses too, where a five piece set doesn’t start giving a bonus until the second piece. I don’t get your argument. I think a five piece set is and should be considerably more powerful than a two piece. Over twice as effective as a matter of fact.
As for how effective it is? It should roughly (but not completely) negate your major brutality buff. Or your empowered buff. But not both. It’s more or less fair and balanced that way. You give up a lot more lucrative five piece bonuses in exchange:
Flat 8% cost reduction to spells (seducer)
1000+ Magicka regen when you fall below 30% (lich)
A proc set that hits for 8-9K in PVP (caluurion)
Around 400-500 spell damage buffed on Sorc frag and curse (war maiden)
250 stamina and Magicka regen (amberplasm)
I’m sorry you can’t insta-gank Sorcs that easy anymore with one button push. Now it takes two or three, I know that’s a lot of work and thinking for a nightblade player. (I’m kidding man, calm down!)
Why are you comparing the 5 piece bonus to monster sets in the first place? They're fundamentally designed differently. If monster sets had significantly less value they they currently do, everyone would run something like 5 piece / 5 piece / 1 weapon or 5 piece / 5 piece back bar/3 willpower or agility. Monster sets are designed to be stronger than most 5 piece sets.
Also why do you think it is that people choose to run Wizard's Riposte over other "more lucrative" sets like Amberplasm? Hint: it's because Wizard's Riposte 5th piece bonus is really valuable even when compared to the other best 5th piece bonuses. You can just run it on one bar, too. 2 Monster 5 Cal front and 5 riposte back sounds like it could be great.
Address these points:
- Mag sorc and templar kits weren't really balanced around having such easy access to Minor Maim.
- Passive defenses are not healthy game design. That's part of the reason why Shuffle was nerfed, both the dodge % chance and the fact that only medium armor wearers can use it now.
- The value of Riposte's 5th piece subtracts more than DOUBLE the value that my 5th piece provides. It can do this to multiple people. If you apply that debuff to 5 people that would otherwise not have that debuff on them, you've subtracted AT LEAST 5 5th piece damage set bonuses of value. Yes, of course there's the opportunity cost of not running something like Amberplasm, but the distinction here is that you're subtracting far more value from opponents than you would gain running other powerful sets.
Wizard's Riposte is just another carry set that's dumbing down the game. It doesn't promote healthy gameplay or counterplay. It passively lets players survive artificially longer than they should be able to. It's just a crutch.
There are five piece sets that grant major brutality/sorcery. Now we have a set that applies MINOR maim, and removes LESS DAMAGE than those two buffs grant.
Now if it were major protection or major maim with 100% uptime, I’d agree with you that it’s too much. But it’s not. You’re crying over nothing because you can’t burst a particular Sorc down using the set.
On top of that. You PLAY a stealth class with access to just about every major buff and debuff in the game. And you have the balls to come in here and simper about SORCS getting minor maim? That’s absolutely pathetic.
You also forgot to correct him that Templars were originally design around an AOE defense, miss chance, which was way more OP than dodge chance ever was lol.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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Yiko✭✭✭✭✭Two two-piece sets adds up to four pieces, which is still less than five.
I’ve always thought the two piece sets are ridiculous, they are usually game breaking and far too strong for such little investment. Nearly every broken PVP imbalance is due to overpowered monster sets. It’s like the set designers don’t play the game and aren’t very bright.
I’m calling it. Next DLC will have malubeth 2. It’s not like they’re smart enough to remember what happened last time.
Not sure what you're talking about regarding the two two-piece sets adding up to 4 and pointing out how 4 is less than 5. I don't understand the relevance or where it's coming from. I was only weighing the 2nd set bonus of monster sets vs. the 5th piece set bonus of Wizard's Riposte. Where does 5 even come from, though? 5 piece sets typically only have 4 set bonuses anyways. Sorry if it should be obvious, but I'm just not following.
And monster set one pieces gives bonuses too, where a five piece set doesn’t start giving a bonus until the second piece. I don’t get your argument. I think a five piece set is and should be considerably more powerful than a two piece. Over twice as effective as a matter of fact.
As for how effective it is? It should roughly (but not completely) negate your major brutality buff. Or your empowered buff. But not both. It’s more or less fair and balanced that way. You give up a lot more lucrative five piece bonuses in exchange:
Flat 8% cost reduction to spells (seducer)
1000+ Magicka regen when you fall below 30% (lich)
A proc set that hits for 8-9K in PVP (caluurion)
Around 400-500 spell damage buffed on Sorc frag and curse (war maiden)
250 stamina and Magicka regen (amberplasm)
I’m sorry you can’t insta-gank Sorcs that easy anymore with one button push. Now it takes two or three, I know that’s a lot of work and thinking for a nightblade player. (I’m kidding man, calm down!)
Why are you comparing the 5 piece bonus to monster sets in the first place? They're fundamentally designed differently. If monster sets had significantly less value they they currently do, everyone would run something like 5 piece / 5 piece / 1 weapon or 5 piece / 5 piece back bar/3 willpower or agility. Monster sets are designed to be stronger than most 5 piece sets.
Also why do you think it is that people choose to run Wizard's Riposte over other "more lucrative" sets like Amberplasm? Hint: it's because Wizard's Riposte 5th piece bonus is really valuable even when compared to the other best 5th piece bonuses. You can just run it on one bar, too. 2 Monster 5 Cal front and 5 riposte back sounds like it could be great.
Address these points:
- Mag sorc and templar kits weren't really balanced around having such easy access to Minor Maim.
- Passive defenses are not healthy game design. That's part of the reason why Shuffle was nerfed, both the dodge % chance and the fact that only medium armor wearers can use it now.
- The value of Riposte's 5th piece subtracts more than DOUBLE the value that my 5th piece provides. It can do this to multiple people. If you apply that debuff to 5 people that would otherwise not have that debuff on them, you've subtracted AT LEAST 5 5th piece damage set bonuses of value. Yes, of course there's the opportunity cost of not running something like Amberplasm, but the distinction here is that you're subtracting far more value from opponents than you would gain running other powerful sets.
Wizard's Riposte is just another carry set that's dumbing down the game. It doesn't promote healthy gameplay or counterplay. It passively lets players survive artificially longer than they should be able to. It's just a crutch.
There are five piece sets that grant major brutality/sorcery. Now we have a set that applies MINOR maim, and removes LESS DAMAGE than those two buffs grant.
Now if it were major protection or major maim with 100% uptime, I’d agree with you that it’s too much. But it’s not. You’re crying over nothing because you can’t burst a particular Sorc down using the set.
Yes, there are 5 piece sets that grant major brutality/sorcery. Do people run them? No. People typically get those buffs from other places, like Rally. People who are running Wizard's Riposte WOULDN'T get Minor Maim elsewhere.
Also those sets provide the single buff to the user, not a debuff to potentially every enemy near you. They don't gain or lose value depending on the number of people that are around.
Why are you even comparing Minor Maim to Major Brutality? Major Brutality is strictly weapon damage. Minor Maim affects damage, which also takes into account things like Stamina/Magicka. I also love how you capitalized MINOR, as if implying that it's named as such is significant or relevant in any way. It's apples to oranges.. Separate categories with different scaling and functions. It can't be compared to Major Brutality/Sorcery. The fact that it's named Minor Maim simply signifies that it's less than Major Maim. Just because it's the lesser of the 2, it doesn't mean that Minor Maim can't be too impactful in a certain context.
Using Rally (gaining Major Brutality) brings my weapon damage from 2496 to 2942. This brings my Surprise Attack tooltip from 7659 to 8296, a difference of 637. Even if Major Brutality gives more damage than Wizard's Riposte subtracts (which it doesn't), Wizard's value scales based on the number of people it affects.On top of that. You PLAY a stealth class with access to just about every major buff and debuff in the game. And you have the balls to come in here and simper about SORCS getting minor maim? That’s absolutely pathetic.
I have Major Fracture on Surprise Attack, Major Defile on Incap, and Major Ward/Major Resolve for around 6s on Shadow ability usage. Those are my class specific ones, and every class can get the Major Ward/Major Resolve buffs easily. What if I told you that classes are balanced (I use that term loosely) based around their overall kits? There are strengths and weaknesses relative to others. For example, NBs have high offensive capability, but they lack a reliable way to gain Major Mending or Major Vitality. That's just how ZOS put the NB kit together. When you throw something new like Minor Maim into an already developed kit, there's potential for overperformance, especially on classes like Sorc or Templar who have high synergy with it courtesy of shields and purge/BOL.
I'm also not sure why you keep trying to make this personal, with comments about me being a NB player or that I can't kill a specific sorc. I have no idea which sorc you might be referring to, and this isn't coming from a malicious place. It's balance-focused. It is a poorly designed & imbalanced set. There are many sets that need adjustment, including Durok's Bane and Shieldbreaker, but I'm just giving my commentary on Wizard's Riposte here. Attack my argument, not me personally.Edited by Yiko on March 23, 2018 9:41AM0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
And what happens if five out of twenty people wear this? Four wasted slots. Whereas one in five people is sufficient. It's way more valuable for a small, organized group.
@Yiko
There are a few issues with your NB statement:
NBs don't have Major Mending. So do sorcs. Or TEMPLARS. You do have an incorrectly crithealing-guaranteeing Shadowy Disguise.
You have Minor Vitality on your mag spammable.
The resistance buffs require other classes a skill slot, and those skills aren't overwhelming. NB gets a free pass, again.
Classes and balancing have changed. Proof can be found in Slimecraw, giving you the Berserk buff, which NBs conveniently have built-in for free. NBs are just overloaded with buffs and debuffs, although they don't necessarily need it. Other classes had their effects removed, for instance.
And lastly, why is it okay for Shade to proc Necropotence, then? It's for pets, those belong to sorcs. Denying Maim and claim it to be needed for a "squishy" class, although tanky DKs have it, as well, is just a double standard.
Edited by Lord-Otto on February 22, 2018 4:21AM0 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭
And what happens if five out of twenty people wear this? Four wasted slots. Whereas one in five people is sufficient. It's way more valuable for a small, organized group.
@Yiko
There are a few issues with your NB statement:
NBs don't have Major Mending. So do sorcs. Or TEMPLARS. You do have an incorrectly crithealing-guaranteeing Shadowy Disguise.
You have Minor Vitality on your mag spammable.
The resistance buffs require other classes a skill slot, and those skills aren't overwhelming. NB gets a free pass, again.
Classes and balancing have changed. Proof can be found in Slimecraw, giving you the Berserk buff, which NBs conveniently have built-in for free. NBs are just overloaded with buffs and debuffs, although they don't necessarily need it. Other classes had their effects removed, for instance.
And lastly, why is it okay for Shade to proc Necropotence, then? It's for pets, those belong to sorcs. Denying Maim and claim it to be needed for a "squishy" class, although tanky DKs have it, as well, is just a double standard.
"they lack a reliable way to gain Major Mending or Major Vitality" .. I explicitly stated that NBs don't really have it.
Also it was just an example of a class weakness. Sorcs have Crit Surge, Dark Deal, and Shields. Templars have Purge, BOL, Mending passive, and Minor Mending. They're different kits. Just because I list not having Major Mending as a weakness for NB healing, it does not mean that a lack of Major Mending in other kits is indicative of that same weakness.
NB cloak doesn't crit when a dot is actively on the target, which should be almost always in the form of Poison Injection or Cripple. Just one tick of the dot will crit IIRC, so in a sense this supposedly "incorrectly crithealing-guaranteeing" ability isn't so guaranteeing after all.
Other classes' resistance buffs have longer uptime and provide further utility. The templar and sorc ones are great (at least I think the general consensus is that the templar one is good), and sorcs can just run theirs on the Overload bar (yes, their 3rd ability bar. A class strength). Despite this "free" buff, aren't NBs still the squishiest class in the game? INb4 "doesn't matter how squishy you are if you kill someone instantly." I don't use a gank playstyle on NB, and I hate ZOS' crouch stealth mechanics in general.
I do agree that NBs seem to have more buffs passively than other classes in general. Major Fracture, Major Defile, Minor Berserk, Minor Maim & Snare on Fear seem excessive. However, buffs aren't the only thing to analyze when looking at overall kits. Spell functionality, utility, & passives all have to be considered. What do you feel is overperforming and to what extent? Make a thread, I might even agree with you. I don't think this is the place to dissect the NB kit, though.
Of course classes and balancing have changed over time. Just look at Wardens huehue.
I'm not sure why Shade can proc Necropotence, and I fail to see how this is relevant at the moment. I don't want to turn this into a debate of NB class privilege. Also I don't recall denying Minor Maim to anyone ever, nor did I say that squishy classes need it. Every class has access to it. I'm saying that Wizard's Riposte's application of Minor Maim provides too much value to be considered balanced. I strongly dislike passive defenses. At least if you run a set like Amberplasm you can use the Mag Regen to more ACTIVELY use your abilities, or you can utilize the stam regen to perhaps dodge/block attacks more often. Riposte makes you and everyone around you tankier by just standing there. That's not engaging gameplay.Edited by Yiko on March 23, 2018 9:42AM0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It seems insincere. The ‘rich man’ class of buffs and debuffs comes here and complains about Sorcs getting minor maim from one five piece set - when we don’t get any other major or minor debuffs anywhere.
This whole thing is another stealth class ‘nerf sorc’ thread, and it’s irritating as hell in addition to being flat wrong and completely tasteless.
Someone posts ‘nerf nightblade’ and get 200 meme posts mocking them. That’s IF the mods don’t just close it. Meanwhile this forum is packed with ‘nerf Sorc!’ threads mostly perpetrated by nightblades.
So yes! I take it a little personally. Go get bent! It’s not like you don’t have a plethora of other tools to make up for a 15% damage loss.
You can break my armor, making me naked armor value. You can crit automatically. You can cloak. You can stun and defile me. You can attack me out of cloak over and over. You can increase your spell damage, weapon damage, and Max Magicka to make up for damage loss. You’re fine. Riposte is fine.Edited by Minalan on February 22, 2018 6:50AM2 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭People have told you, again and again, that this is a GOOD thing.
People have told you, again and again, that this is a BAD thing.
It's not antizerg as u try to describe it, it's work on multiple enemies makes this debuffs constant for everyone.
Communism in work, everyone in the ass, everyone poor, black hole
But it is anti zerg. 1v1 it's no problem to burst down a wizard riposte user. This set is strong because it applies a debuff to multiple people which greatly lowers your incoming damage when you are outnumbered. Meaning the only time this set is a problem is if you are zerging someone down. There should be more sets like this that benefit solo players4 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭thankyourat wrote: »People have told you, again and again, that this is a GOOD thing.
People have told you, again and again, that this is a BAD thing.
It's not antizerg as u try to describe it, it's work on multiple enemies makes this debuffs constant for everyone.
Communism in work, everyone in the ass, everyone poor, black hole
But it is anti zerg. 1v1 it's no problem to burst down a wizard riposte user. This set is strong because it applies a debuff to multiple people which greatly lowers your incoming damage when you are outnumbered. Meaning the only time this set is a problem is if you are zerging someone down. There should be more sets like this that benefit solo players
Oh my god, thank you... Thankyou!
;30 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Address these points:
- Mag sorc and templar kits weren't really balanced around having such easy access to Minor Maim.
- Passive defenses are not healthy game design. That's part of the reason why Shuffle was nerfed, both the dodge % chance and the fact that only medium armor wearers can use it now.
- The value of Riposte's 5th piece subtracts more than DOUBLE the value that my 5th piece provides. It can do this to multiple people. If you apply that debuff to 5 people that would otherwise not have that debuff on them, you've subtracted AT LEAST 5 5th piece damage set bonuses of value. Yes, of course there's the opportunity cost of not running something like Amberplasm, but the distinction here is that you're subtracting far more value from opponents than you would gain running other powerful sets.
Wizard's Riposte is just another carry set that's dumbing down the game. It doesn't promote healthy gameplay or counterplay. It passively lets players survive artificially longer than they should be able to. It's just a crutch.
- Where do you take that from? They get Minor Maim now through sacrificing a 5 piece set and they're hardly OP right now. I doubt the devs just overlooked the fact that a Sorc might actually use a set called "Wizard's Riposte".
- It's passive, yes. I'm not a great fan of too much passive mitigation either. I'm not a fan of the buff system either, as it means in practice, only the best ways to apply a certain buff/debuff are worth it, in this case Wizard's Riposte for a group. But it is passive mitigation just like other sets, so I don't really see the issue here.
- Then I guess Fortified Brass would still outperform your set. Or Impregnable. These sets bonuses are unique, stack with standard buffs, in return they offer no group support. Not sure why you bring Amberplasm in here though, as that is a sustain set and very much on par with Wizard's.Edited by ToRelax on February 22, 2018 9:14AMDAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
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Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
kaithuzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm a magblade & I use riposte backbar.
I honestly don't care if it gets nerfed b/c I've got an impreg build that will mitigate about the same; I've honestly just been wearing it to help out others. IMO it's a little over the top but my faith in the devs to make it perfectly balanced is nonexistent. So I'll use it until it gets messed with & then ditch it for my other build.
Good luck balancing.Member of:
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