Go back to the beginning of the thread, Liofa's math is for end game vet trial tanks who had their block cost down to "Wrobel didn't like this" numbers. For the people who had block cost under 400 stamina/block, they're going to see a big change. For those of us who weren't that far down - I only have 20% in block cost reduction CP, for example, because I was building for vet dungeon pugs - we won't see much of a change afaict.. not that we were running those trials in the first place.SmellyUnlimited wrote: »victoriana-blue wrote: »Because it's a PvE change too - ZOS has been working toward "tactical blocking" for at least a year now (if you include the development time for HoF).SmellyUnlimited wrote: »Why not simply increase the cost to block in PvP? It could be in the battle spirit, sort of how healing effects are halved etc.
I’m not even sure how some content can be overcome without full blocking for the duration. Axes is VAA come to mind. If you have a few on you, I definitely don’t have time to heavy attack while one of em lays me flat and go cleaving the group with abandon.
If those numbers are right, and blocking is going to increase by a factor of 3, then I can’t see how you can maintain your stamina.
Can anyone that’s tested on PTS verify how significant the block penalty is now?
Is this all some secret mischief by Sheogorath to absolutely require tanks to max their Mage Guild for Equilibrium?!
I feel the trials were <meant> to have two tanks, but DK have been so strong in that role they have allowed for a single tank in most trials, which makes it easier as the extra body can be DPS, reducing the fight duration significantly (potentially ~ 10%)
It may signal the beginning of the end for only taking one tank to a trial, which may not be a bad thing. If that's the case, ZoS should communicate this is the direction they'd like a little clearer - it will stop 90% of the complaints and we can start adjusting to their vision.
The only issue with perma-blocking is block casting. Remove that and people will have to make a choice. Would need tweaking like not letting someone cast for a period of releasing block.
90% of the time I DO NOT want this on me. The reason to run this skill isn't the self heal, it's for Nature's Gift and that 250 resource return. As for who it goes to, that works very effectively. Just like Honor the Dead on my old Templar tank most of the time yes it goes to someone else because while I maybe at 50% thats still 15-20k HP. But if you hit this skill then Arctic/ Polar right after a heavy hit, it will go to me. If you hit it right in the middle of a mechanic, you'll see the whole screen light up wtith heals (Leeching at least)munster1404 wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »Well if it's for self-sufficient taking, meaning heals, I have a burning question: I've been trying to beat Bloodroot Forge HM with a Warden Tank without healer but my heals are simply too weak to outdo all the damage. I basically die blocking, overwhelmed the heavy hits and the falling roof; I also tried roll dodging but it's pretty unreliable and end up dying all the same since roll dodging breaks block and you can't run with bosses around like a headless chicken since they move from AoE and it's a big DPS loss. And it's not for lack of trying. For one I've been trying to stack Enchanted Forest, Polar Wind, Resolving Vigor and even Green Lotus LA/HA weaves on top of that and doesn't cut it. The Vigor heals are laughable, with ticks around 1.2K and Polar Wind ain't much better. That simply doesn't cut it when getting ~15K hits 2 seconds apart trough block and almost capped resistance.
I've done the same dungeon HM with healer on 1st attempt, beaten the non-HM multiple times without healer and I've also beaten Falkreath Hold HM without healer yesterday, though it was a bit painful, and I had to drop horn for trees almost every time. At least on DK I can hit Green Dragon Blood and top myself up with Vigor rather quickly since I can easily access Major Mending, Minor Vitality and another unique class buff that make it tick for closer to 2K. As a result I've decided to abandon Warden Tanking for now since it's too damn frustrating and continue with that char as PvE DD build and especially PvP damage focused build. I don't really see how I could tank The Warrior without adequate self-heals so if it doesn't cut it for end game, there ain't worth investing time and resources in it.
Your missing the Wardens best heal. Leeching Vines 1300 heal every second you take damage, 700 every second you do damage. Which if you run Arctic Blast instead of Polar Wind is every 2 seconds plus a 30% slow and a 200% chance to apply Minor Maim (15% damage debuff) to all 3 of them without wasting stamina on Heroic Slash.
Leeching will also proc Nature's Gift when it goes to someone else, giving you 250 of your lowest resource every second. Next to the Netch it's a Warden tanks next best skill.
I've pulled off last women standing recoveries on that boss. Fortress, Netch, Leeching, Arctic, Forest → Rez
Now whether thats enough heels for the DPS, I don't know. I think you're better off with 3 VMA DPS builds responsible for their own health or a hybrid DPS/Healer, that's what I've had with me for all my skin runs. Anyway hope that helps.
I front bar the forest and almost never use it. I can even drop my War Horn each time I come back in VDSA. It takes something like Off-Tanking Ozara, or Main Tanking Saint Olms with the healers down before I started needing to rely on the Forest.
Edit: Add this after seeing other replies.
In my opinion, Warden tanks are the best pieces of every other tank at the cost of nothing instant.
- More CL than a DK, put slower to pull off. Upside to Gate is I can Gate for larger targets than can be chained.
- DPS and Leeching Heats of a Night Blade, not as much as NB but more than any other class as a tank.
- Huge Burst heals of a Templar, cost Ultimate, not magic though.
- Sorc... got nothing on this one lol. Not really sure what Sore tank brings, group buffs?
Leeching vines (or the other morph Living Trellis) ends up bring casted on the ally more often than not because the tank always has the highest hit point. So the caster lose out on the self heals. I do wish that the Devs buff the skill so that not only the vines are casted on yourself, it also extends to an additional ally.
The only issue with perma-blocking is block casting. Remove that and people will have to make a choice. Would need tweaking like not letting someone cast for a period of releasing block.
That will screw up things to the point of making the game unplayable. What if casting GDB dropped block on the Warrior in vHRC? Or casting spells would break block at the Stone Atronach in vAA? You would endlessly wipe there. Such comments clearly lay bare your inexperience in end game content.
I feel the trials were <meant> to have two tanks, but DK have been so strong in that role they have allowed for a single tank in most trials, which makes it easier as the extra body can be DPS, reducing the fight duration significantly (potentially ~ 10%)
It may signal the beginning of the end for only taking one tank to a trial, which may not be a bad thing. If that's the case, ZoS should communicate this is the direction they'd like a little clearer - it will stop 90% of the complaints and we can start adjusting to their vision.
I feel the trials were <meant> to have two tanks, but DK have been so strong in that role they have allowed for a single tank in most trials, which makes it easier as the extra body can be DPS, reducing the fight duration significantly (potentially ~ 10%)
It may signal the beginning of the end for only taking one tank to a trial, which may not be a bad thing. If that's the case, ZoS should communicate this is the direction they'd like a little clearer - it will stop 90% of the complaints and we can start adjusting to their vision.
Do you realize @aeowulf that all vetHM-trials are done with tank + offtank? You don't do them rly often, don't you?
kylewwefan wrote: »Has anyone tried VAA yet to see how the axes now that is live? Are 3 shieldplay still the way to go or something else? Are any other perma block situations much more difficult now?
Alkosh....yes or no?
This turned into a long long thread. Hard to find stuff in it now.
The only issue with perma-blocking is block casting. Remove that and people will have to make a choice. Would need tweaking like not letting someone cast for a period of releasing block.
AngelMonkey0322 wrote: »Sorry for the potentially noobish question, but I don't get the suggestion to reduce magicka cost in response to a block cost increase. Why wouldn't the natural response be to focus on shoring up stam regen or boosting max stam to offset the increased cost?
For non-DK tanks it gives us more class skill casts too: Dark Deal/Encase/Lightning Form, Path/Mirage/Strife, Blazing Shield/Focus/Aura, etc. And more inner fire casts, can't forget about that!AngelMonkey0322 wrote: »Sorry for the potentially noobish question, but I don't get the suggestion to reduce magicka cost in response to a block cost increase. Why wouldn't the natural response be to focus on shoring up stam regen or boosting max stam to offset the increased cost?
Because Stamina Recovery is inactive while blocking and max stam doesn't help in regards to getting stamina back. Magicka cost decrease or magicka regen helps because it allows a DK to activate igneous shield more often and thus getting stamina more often from the helping hands passive.
victoriana-blue wrote: »For non-DK tanks it gives us more class skill casts too: Dark Deal/Encase/Lightning Form, Path/Mirage/Strife, Blazing Shield/Focus/Aura, etc. And more inner fire casts, can't forget about that!AngelMonkey0322 wrote: »Sorry for the potentially noobish question, but I don't get the suggestion to reduce magicka cost in response to a block cost increase. Why wouldn't the natural response be to focus on shoring up stam regen or boosting max stam to offset the increased cost?
Because Stamina Recovery is inactive while blocking and max stam doesn't help in regards to getting stamina back. Magicka cost decrease or magicka regen helps because it allows a DK to activate igneous shield more often and thus getting stamina more often from the helping hands passive.
The lack of blocking-resource recovery is the big thing though, yeah. (Since you don't regen magicka while using an ice staff to block either.) AngelMonkey, if you're double-barring 1H&S using magicka abilities lets you provide utility without draining your blocking resource, which gives you a bit more wiggle room when things get tough.
CLASS DIFFERENCE
Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .
CLASS DIFFERENCE
Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .
I just really want to highlight this to ZoS. The difference between DK (& Warden) vs the other classes is <right now> far too big, and it has been since Morrowind in the case of DK. Whatever these classes show on paper with their skills and abilities is not translating into real world usage. You do not seen NB or templar tanks ever anymore, and sorc tanks are rare. These three class/role combinations need looking at from a tanking perspective very badly, and whatever you decide is the reason why each is not desired/viable for all content be addressed. (Outside of scored runs which is the only place meta should be important.) This should really be extended to healers too, templar and warden are the only types I ever see there too. All these non-desired classes/role combos should be considered more important than DLC. You have 5 classes, with three roles, so a total of 15 combinations. Right now, only DK or warden are desired as tanks, and only templar or warden are desired as healers. You have 9/15 'desired or viable' class/role combinations. That remaining 40% needs addressing badly.
How many ZoS employees play NB/Templar tanks or dk healer in tough content? (any new DLC HM) Please ask them what they think of those roles. If it is none, then it's kinda answered the question, atleast from a desirability perspective.
Maura_Neysa wrote: »
- I do still see Templar tanks, rarely
- I also have a Trials worthy DK Healer that I've done vHRC Hard mode on and group healed vAA (where everyones distance makes my single target Healing Ward vs BoL two target Omni-directional heal difference most pronounced.
- I earned all 3 4-man skins with a Sorc healer.
Not saying there isn't balance issues, but I am saying if you think there are more Sorc tanks then Templar currently then something doesn't add up. I main a tank and understand them pretty well. Each class has some unique strength, DK- damage mitigation, Wardens-CC, Templar-self healing, NB-Damage, Sorcs-no idea what they do better, they are the worst class to tank on.
Maura_Neysa wrote: »
- I do still see Templar tanks, rarely
- I also have a Trials worthy DK Healer that I've done vHRC Hard mode on and group healed vAA (where everyones distance makes my single target Healing Ward vs BoL two target Omni-directional heal difference most pronounced.
- I earned all 3 4-man skins with a Sorc healer.
Not saying there isn't balance issues, but I am saying if you think there are more Sorc tanks then Templar currently then something doesn't add up. I main a tank and understand them pretty well. Each class has some unique strength, DK- damage mitigation, Wardens-CC, Templar-self healing, NB-Damage, Sorcs-no idea what they do better, they are the worst class to tank on.
Yeah i still see templars rarely too, and ultimately it's down to the randomness of finder who you end up with. I joined 7 pugs last night (more than normal as i'm after a DB weapon from selenes) of which I had 3 warden tanks and 2 dk tanks. The other two 'tanks' were both sorcs, one a light armoured DPS playing 'jump finder queue' but it was only vet selenes and his cp made up for the lack of tankage. The other was an <50 sorc when I ended up in a normal, so i'm kinda discounting them both. There used to be a lot more templar tanks too. I am of course talking about pug-world, vet pledges, normal trials etc
You are admirable in a lot of ways for taking these odd combos into tough content, and yes i'm not saying they don't exist, but we are talking literally a handful of people who can do what you're doing, out of how many thousands? Maybe they are balanced and it's everyone else that just don't know how to play, or accept them, or maybe the classes are underperforming in certain roles. Half the trouble is peoples perceptions of these roles, even if everything was perfectly balanced tomorrow, it would take months/years for the population to accept 'non-meta' combinations and adapt their own playstyle to suit
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@Maura_Neysa minor herioism is why you run herioc slash. Major heroism is not up 100%. Simple. And personally I would not leave a debuff as important as 15% damage reduction up to chance. Even if you feel it is a "high" chance.
Please enlighten a fellow warden tank how to play one "properly".