What is Good DPS?

Muttsmutt · February 2018

Runefang wrote: »

Muttsmutt wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Muttsmutt wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Muttsmutt wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Animation cancelling is not required for decent damage.

if only that were true.

@Muttsmutt
Actually it is very true. You can easily hit 30k on a dummy without animation canceling. It has already been stated on this thread that the only relevant AC done by end game PVE DPS is bar swap cancelling, which is not at all difficult to master. Weaving is NOT animation canceling.

Animation is not required for decent damage, but it is required for extraordinary damage.

then it must be some ethereal shenanigans, cause i've never seen more than 20k dps on a solo dummy test, even following word by word guides

If you're not hitting more than 20k dps on a dummy AND you're following their guides to the letter you're doing the rotation wrong.

As others have said the only animation cancelling people do is bar swapping.

Otherwise its all light attack -> active skill, this all done within one second. Or its heavy attack -> wait for it to be fully charged -> skill.

you know, that might be it
what's even more brain rotting to me than animation cancelling is pressing the same buttons in the same sequence at given times, like a machine

Well there isn't an MMO out there in which to be successful you don't need to press buttons in the same sequence at given times. In fact how many video games period are different?

If you want to just mash random buttons then I suggest you stick to easy single player games.

yeah mmos are trash
"mash random buttons" and "easy single player games" are exactly what mmo trash would say

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

PlagueSD wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

What is Good DPS?

Simple, good DPS is when the mobs die and you don't.

No need to put some arbitrary numbers on there ...

I’m tired of fungal Grotto taking an hour to beat due to this line of thinking.

This.. If the boss dies, and you don't. You're doing good DPS...

I've NEVER been in a Fungal Grotto group that's lasted that long...Of course, I usually only run with guildies.

If the boss dies and you don't, you have a good healer.

Vivecc · February 2018

hey, i´d like to bring up a question that wasn´t talked about yet afaik.
i know that there´s addons for quite awhile that give dps numbers (FTC/combatmetrics) but the ingame dps provided by the dummys is pretty new. Are the results the same ? Or is there a diffrence in overall dps provided by ingame measurement vs the one from addons ?

MehrunesFlagon · February 2018

Mister_DMC wrote: »

I'll say again.
Bad DPS 10k or less
Average 15-20k DPS
Good 21k-30k
Very good 31-35k
Great 35k+
Top tier 40k+

All depending on class and considered Solo on the 3 mil dummy. How much you cheese it is going to affect your raid test if your guild uses this as a metric.

actually 15k belongs in the bad categrory.you can get that basically spamming heavy attacks wthile dots are down.

Vahrokh · February 2018

Nihility42 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

Honestly, I'm not sure why people treat animation cancelling likes it's particularly hard or even something that takes much learning. Just fire your skills off quickly one after another, click in between, and boom you are cancelling. It's not like there is some 1ms window you have to hit for it to work. And especially with the HA meta we have, cancelling heavy attacks is incredibly easy, just start charging it then hit your skill button without releasing the attack button. Done. Want to cancel a skill with block or weapon swap? Hit the skill, then hit the block or the swap. It's really pretty intuitive.

Too bad, doing this, if you double check with Combat Metrics, you'll see you have SEEN light attacks but they won't register on the server. You need to learn the auto attack animations on the various weapons and see the exact moment you can interrupt them withot losing them.

Vahrokh · February 2018

Juju_beans wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I agree that most people should, with a relatively casual gearing and rotation, be able to hit 20k.

10k is honestly sufficient for almost all nonDLC dungeons, though, if you actually play mechanics.

Yeah, that's the thing. The mindset in MMOs has been for some time now that "good" DPS is equal to "we can burn the boss so fast that there are no mechanics". Anything less is considered scrub territory. In some cases it even goes so far as if the healer had to actually, you know, heal anybody because the boss got one attack off, then DPS was too low. Part of it is people wanting to feel powerful and part of it is wildly overcompensating for lack of skill or potential missteps.

I'm speaking generally of course, but that's the place where a lot of these numbers come from.

Worse...dps can burn down mobs/boss so quick that you don't need healers or tanks. That is the new mindset.

DPS had to find out ways to play without tanks and healers. There are 30 DPS per each tank, all those who don't find a tank try hard to figure out ways to still play.

Lunstagramer · February 2018

‌
I only do 4K to 6K on mobs.
How can someone reach 60K? Oo
‌

Vahrokh · February 2018

Loc2262 wrote: »

malicia wrote: »

Too many people here crying about animation canceling. I can't animation cancel to save my life, nor can I do LA weaving. I've tried and tried, friends have tried to help me, but I can't make it work.

Whenever you use a skill or do an LA/HA without waiting for the previous action animation to fully play out, you animation cancel. Whenever you swap your weapon bar without waiting for the animation to fully play out, you animation cancel.

I'm quite sure you've been using at least some level of animation cancelling without even noticing it.

It's not rocket science. It simply means you do your next action without letting the partly lengthy action animation of your previous action play out fully. E.g. press a skill button as fast as you can. It'll go off every about 1.1 seconds, no matter how long the skill's animation. Bingo, you animation cancelled. Press Endless Hail or Blockade and immediately swap your bar, bingo you cancelled again.

Or press an LA and immediately press a skill. Bingo again, you animation cancelled and also "weaved". Weaving simply means making use of the animation cancelling mechanic to insert an LA between skills, since they don't share a cooldown. You so to speak make use of the waiting time between skills and slip an LA in for raw damage, proc enchantments (i.e. increase the chance), proc skills like the Nightblade spectral bow etc.

They guys posting here are sorcs. Try doing that with the most used sorc weapon (lightning staff) and you will see what you believe is LA weaving but it won't register on server (and Combat metrics will tell you have done 20 LA on a 3M dummy parse instead of 80 LAs).

MehrunesFlagon · February 2018

Lunstagramer wrote: »

‌
I only do 4K to 6K on mobs.
How can someone reach 60K? Oo
‌

How the bloody hell is that even possible.I don't think I could get that low a parse if I tried.

Feanor · February 2018

What is good DPS? I only know bad DPS. Mine for example.

Tinus_92 · February 2018

Considering a target dummy, ele drain supplied, and you're on CP160+ having at least a semi-perm endgame setup:

0-10k: Low (Not trials ready, normal dungeons.)
10-15k: Mediocre (Normal trials, normal dlc dungeons)
15k-20k: Decent (Normal dlc trials, veteran dungeons.)
20k-25k: Relatively good (Veteran craglorn trials, veteran dlc dungeons.)
25-30k: Good (Veteran dlc trials, craglorn hardmodes.)
30k-35k: Very good (enough for any trials/dungeons as long you know mechanics too, not considering score-runs.)
35k-40k: Excellent (considered for score-running groups not aiming at nr #1, ready to the most difficult content if knowing mechanics too.)
40k+: Perfect (If you can pull this off on a skeleton, along with performing perfectly during trials, consider applying towards the best of the score-running groups.)

I'm aware of +50k parses, but we should consider trial-ready setups here and no The Lover skeleton-builds who can't pull their weight in trials. Of course there will be exceptions on the scale on what you can or can't do, but I believe this won't be far off in general.

Onigar · February 2018

Really I want to say forget a little about DPS numbers, its all about capability in the end.

This involves survivability and sustain as well as DPS. Healers won't always keep you alive (sorry but true lol)

Here is a check you can try, I use it regulary myself.

Go into normal Hel Ra solo.

At the end of the bridge is the first of 3 mobs. The 2nd and 3rd mobs are timer spawned.

The overall task is to stop all 3 mobs from going up the steps to the archers near to where the first Air Atro boss spawns.

So far I can kill the first mob and most of second while still pulling tail enders of the 3rd mob.

Some of the 3rd mob still make it to the archers so I have something left with this task to achieve

Before this I went solo in nAA and cleared to first boss.

Dont get stuck on achieving DPS numbers, try things out.

Personally I want to be able to solo anomalies in craglorn. After achieving something like this then really I feel DPS numbers are so not important.

Have FUN

Edit:typo

jaye63 · February 2018

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Mister_DMC wrote: »

I'll say again.
Bad DPS 10k or less
Average 15-20k DPS
Good 21k-30k
Very good 31-35k
Great 35k+
Top tier 40k+

All depending on class and considered Solo on the 3 mil dummy. How much you cheese it is going to affect your raid test if your guild uses this as a metric.

actually 15k belongs in the bad categrory.you can get that basically spamming heavy attacks wthile dots are down.

While 15k isnt going to get you many vet dungeons done or any trials done, 15-18k is more than enough to solo all of the group dungeons and solo a few world bosses. If you arent worried about doing the trials or vet dungeons, 15k is more than enough.

SupremeRissole · February 2018

<10k = very low - delves
10-18k = low -normal dungeons
18-25k = average - vet dungeons/normal trials
25-35k = good - vet dlc hardmode dungeons/vet trials
36k+ = very good - hm trials
45k+ = more than likely a cheese or stamblade

Kelces · February 2018

coop500 wrote: »

The best I've ever done is 8K DPS...

This is why I never queue as a DD in vet dungeons or any trails. But usually I'm a pretty good healer and a not too horrible tank.

Same here, but maybe you try the "infernal guardian" set with your healer, then you can do both and get even more than the 8k you mentioned.

Naerri · February 2018

Kelces wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

The best I've ever done is 8K DPS...

This is why I never queue as a DD in vet dungeons or any trails. But usually I'm a pretty good healer and a not too horrible tank.

Same here, but maybe you try the "infernal guardian" set with your healer, then you can do both and get even more than the 8k you mentioned.

Imo healers in ESO often overdo the healbot/support part a lot. You really need only a fraction of your healing skills in most of the 4-man content. Instead of that you can contribute with DPS.

kylewwefan · February 2018

Nuking a 3 Mil dummy in 2 minutes is 25K DPS. 3 Minutes drops it down to 16K while 4 minutes is 12K. See there doesn’t seem that much difference between 3 and 4 minutes.

If your high CP and still pulling low damage and banging your head against the wall trying to figure out what you’re doing wrong still after reading all the guides and working on these confusing rotations....

Many of these guides are setup for 12 man trials that have already assumed about 15k to 18k penetration through coordinated sets so they suggest using Spell or Weapon Damage Mundus for better results.

I don’t think this is good for 4 man and solo since Vet Dungeon Boss/Mobs have 18k Resistance standard.

The Lover mundus gives 4K penetration. Add about 50 CP to get another 4K penetration. Major Fracture/Breech gives you 5k. Magic users have 4K built in light armor passives. Stam add in a penetration set like TFS of Spriggans. Add in a sharpened weapon and now you melt stuff with your heavy attacks and a few dots

The game is not very intuitive, leaving players to figure these things out on their own. The BiS stuff you read about is only really BiS in well organized trials but doesn’t work the best for anything else. Then try to do PvP on that same character and you just get blown away.

This might not be all you need to help you get a bizillion DPS but it can help boost your damage a good bit if you still care to learn.

Kelces · February 2018

Naerri wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

The best I've ever done is 8K DPS...

This is why I never queue as a DD in vet dungeons or any trails. But usually I'm a pretty good healer and a not too horrible tank.

Same here, but maybe you try the "infernal guardian" set with your healer, then you can do both and get even more than the 8k you mentioned.

Imo healers in ESO often overdo the healbot/support part a lot. You really need only a fraction of your healing skills in most of the 4-man content. Instead of that you can contribute with DPS.

Exactly.

MaleAmazon · February 2018

I play stamina warden on my main with most skills filled out, but use DW only atm since so many skillpoints went into crafting etc. I dont run BiS gear or perfect rotations but I do run endgame gear and mostly play solo / PUG.

Still I´ve been told by teammates when we do DLC vet Dungeons hardmode that I have surprisingly good DPS. Also I can clear VMA, yada yada, though I use Mighty Chudan for a smoother experience when theres too much incoming damage.

When we did vet Falkreath for motifs, the main problem was we did TOO MUCH DPS (too many simultaneous boss mechanics triggered it seemed). And a lot of boss fights are about mechanics, I´d venture a guess that this will increase in DLCs and DPS isn´t really that all-important in those cases.

This tells me that lack of DPS is not necessarily the problem. And a lot of guides out there seem to be built around the assumption that you play with 11 other people, in trials, all have builds that complement each other, and anything that then lowers your DPS by 0.5% is "trash gear". For me and many others this simply isn´t the gameplay experience we have.

Of course if you necessarily have to bypass intended mechanics, sure you can ponder about your DPS all day.

My experience is that if you want to get better, don't ask about Best in Slot gear or theoretical DPS, but try to understand the mechanics and why certain things work.

Penetration might be the most obfuscated mechanic though. I usually do only ballpark numbers since circumstances vary so much. If you are in a group where people use NMG and sunder, etc, you might not need any penetration. If you PvP in a solo fight, things are totally different though.

I am not personally sold on auto-dumping max points in any CP star what with diminishing returns.

But I defer to math geniuses.

kylewwefan · February 2018

I also used Mighty Chudan in Maelstrom on my warden. Along with NMG and VO, but bone pirate would have probably worked good too.

Maelstrom is a bit different to my understanding also. Mobs and Boss resistance are all over the place there. Like the main boss has 18k spell resistance but only 12K physical. The crystals and totems are 18 both. There’s a list I’ve seen floating around somewhere that has the breakdown of Mob health/ resistance

MaleAmazon · February 2018

Yes. I have Chudan with health enchants for situations when I take a lot of damage, like later VMA rounds. It is just so practical; you dont have to worry about gaps in major resolve/ward, get a bit of extra resistance and you can enchant it for defense. On a stamsorc you have dark deal for a magicka dump and then it can be even nicer.

And yeah as I understand it the Maelstrom boss isnt the most armored enemy, but VMA is my main point I think; DPS is nice but you need to understand what is happening. I didnt even have enough DPS to destroy all crystals in one go last time, but if you charge up your healing/defensive ulti you can pretty reliably jump down and kill the crematorium guard. As I understand it the toughest armor to penetrate is 18k-ish (I could well be wrong on this though) and in my setup I aim for Lover / CP for penetration, but I use infused/nirnhoned for traits. Sometimes I use Sunderflame though, but it´s almost RP; I just plain like that set. I really don´t think I´d see a huge difference anyway if I´d redo all equipment.

And I mean.. e.g. in PvP I dont die because of a lack of penetration, I die cause I get ganged up on by 5 people or people who have an OP, specialized setup. Stuff like that. Even something like +20% damage wouldnt save me then.

Shantu · February 2018

Screw dps. After investing 1700+ hours of my life in this game, endlessly obsessing over gear, dps, cp placement, skills, buffs, de-buffs, rotations, animation cancelling...ad nauseam, and working myself into to frenzied sweats in vet dungeons only have ***-wits with zero social skills kick me without a word, feeling bad about myself because I can't solo a normal dungeon blindfolded like most adequate players, I've finally come to the conclusion that even after reaching the 690 cp pinnacle, I just suck. It was a hard turd to swallow, but once I embraced my ultimate suckage, I got back to having fun again.

SoLooney · February 2018

just gonna reference numbers from lambent group parses since those are more accurate than solo parses where you can cheese it and just be a dummy warrior

mag dps hitting 50k plus on a lambent is very solid. magblades should be hitting higher

stam dps should be hitting in the 60k plus area

anything 20k plus solo is good for dungeons
30k plus for vet craglorns
35k plus for the harder dlc vet trials

erlewine · February 2018

its just confusing to me how some max CP players can do such low dps.
If I simply walk up to the target dummy on my 2h stamsorc and do NOTHING other than hold down the attack button and press Wrecking Blow in the middle of the HA animation, I do 18k dps. Literally not doing anything else. Hold down left mouse button, press 1 every ~3 sec. Yet we've got people here talking about how they do 15k dps and supposedly can't do more without some mystic abilities.

Baffling

Tannus15 · February 2018

erlewine wrote: »

its just confusing to me how some max CP players can do such low dps.
If I simply walk up to the target dummy on my 2h stamsorc and do NOTHING other than hold down the attack button and press Wrecking Blow in the middle of the HA animation, I do 18k dps. Literally not doing anything else. Hold down left mouse button, press 1 every ~3 sec. Yet we've got people here talking about how they do 15k dps and supposedly can't do more without some mystic abilities.

Baffling

I'm pretty sure it's because they are trying too hard and focusing on the wrong things. usually because they are following a guide without understanding how it works.

Forget the rotations. What matters is AOE & dots from the back bar and then doing something on your front bar. when you hit 30% resources skip the front bar and just hold left click until it's time to recast the AOE & dots.

Stam (DW front, Bow back) == e-hail, pinject, caltrops barswap rapid strikes until e-hail has 1 second left barswap and repeat.
the entire time spam left click.

magi (inferno front, lightning back) == blockade, <class aoe>, d-reach barswap force pulse until blockade has 1 second left barswap and repeat
the entire time spam left click.

that's it. the magic of the eso combat system and learning your rotation in a nut shell. the only thing you need to focus on is when e-hail / blockade is about to run out so you can get back to the back bar and recast everything and spamming light attack.

you can use more skills to do better (rearming trap, class skills, crit / dmg pots whatever) but out of the box this pretty much works for every class

mocap · March 2018

20k dps is stupidly easy to achive with just a 2 skills, heavy attacks and crafted+guildstore gear and no bar swap lol. Also no need in vMA or trials gear. Did a test with it:
- Sorc, Altmer, Apprentice, max magicka, max hp/mag food;
- 5 Elegance + 5 Torug's + 1 Kena shoulders (all Divines);
- gold Torugs lightning staff with shock enchant, infused trait;
- CP something like 70 staff, 75 thaumaturge, penetration, whatever...

Major breach (EleDrain) on skeli target and major sorcery (Surge). At this point just a spam of heavy attacks will deal about 10K DPS. Now if we add an incredibly hard rotation..... jus kidding, there is no rotation at all:
- LA - Blockade - LA - Liquid - HA - HA, repeat = 20k dps.

dovakiin5574 · March 2018

I get 30k no animation cancelling and no caltrops (stamina). Took me over a year to get there. Its 80% rotation of skills/bars (this means skill), and 10% gear, 10% critical rng and monster set.

I use controller on PC too

Pretty much rotation. So for example if you have 2 bars, you have Damage Over Time (DoT) skills on your 2nd bar and maybe an ultimate. Do DoT 1 > Light Attack > DoT2 > Light Attack > DoT 3 > Light attack > Other skills, DoTs or Buffs > Ultimate (maybe) > Bar Swap > Remaining DoT (if stamina) or Buff > Heavy Attack or Light Attack > Damage Skill 1 > Light or Heavy Attack > Damage Skill 3 > Light or Heavy Attack > Damage Skill 4 > Ultimate if ready > Restart

Look up your build on youtube (mag[insert class name here] or stam[insert class name here]) to get a basic idea of what skills go where.

Elijah_Crow · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

I read this far into the thread and saw the number of /agree’s with this post and just had to stop.

This is completely false. Just not true.

Hitting 20k DPS can be done on most every class with dungeon and overland gear. As a Stam Nightblade I was easily doing this with Hundings and Spriggans. WHEN I USED THE RIGHT ABILITIES AND ROTATION.

I don’t animation cancel, and just can’t. I’m bad at it. When I first started measuring my DPS I was about 16K. After reading and making changes to my abilities and rotation this went up to 24K. Then I pugged some trials for VO gear, which made Maelstrom easier and picked up my bow. I’m up to 31k now.

20K doesn’t require Animation Canceling. It requires an understanding of what really contributes to your DPS and how to get the most out of your class. It requires solid gear that you can get in most cases overland or craft. And it requires a little practice.

Aebaradath · March 2018

What is good DPS? If the enemy dies before you do, you're set.
latest?cb=20111204202752

ArpamiesFin · March 2018

Katahdin wrote: »

I've managed 18-22k on my stam blade at this point. Probably need to work more on not messing up on my rotation. Finding it difficult to push above that so far.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo_ALpGpjcs
5hunding,5automaton and 2veli.
stamblade dps is great, my rotation is not perfect and still over 30k