PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

@Maura_Neysa Your missing the Wardens best heal. Leeching Vines 1300 heal every second you take damage, 700 every second you do damage. Which if you run Arctic Blast instead of Polar Wind is every 2 seconds plus a 30% slow and a 200% chance to apply Minor Maim (15% damage debuff) to all 3 of them without wasting stamina on Heroic Slash.

Area-of-effect damage-over-time abilities have a 1% chance to proc status effect, http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Combat#Status_Effects, which Atric blast is, and that means that the passive you state, Glacial Presence, take it from a 1% to 3%, hardly a reliable way to debuff, well anyone. meanwhile i have saved people in my group with almost a 10k heal from polar wind.

but to be honest, i have never completed vetBRF, on either of my tanks, dk or warden, simply becuase there is nothing for me there, i dont care about skins or the helmet at the end, so why would i bother. good for you that you could.

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa Your missing the Wardens best heal. Leeching Vines 1300 heal every second you take damage, 700 every second you do damage. Which if you run Arctic Blast instead of Polar Wind is every 2 seconds plus a 30% slow and a 200% chance to apply Minor Maim (15% damage debuff) to all 3 of them without wasting stamina on Heroic Slash.

Area-of-effect damage-over-time abilities have a 1% chance to proc status effect, http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Combat#Status_Effects, which Atric blast is, and that means that the passive you state, Glacial Presence, take it from a 1% to 3%, hardly a reliable way to debuff, well anyone. meanwhile i have saved people in my group with almost a 10k heal from polar wind.

but to be honest, i have never completed vetBRF, on either of my tanks, dk or warden, simply becuase there is nothing for me there, i dont care about skins or the helmet at the end, so why would i bother. good for you that you could.

Not an Area-of-Effect Damage-overtime. Just an Area-of-Effect meaning 5% bumped to 15%. Go ahead actually test it. Plus if you back bar a Destro, you get another 100%, so 20%. Not only that, but running 3 such skills, Arctic, Gripping, and Blockade I can achieve nearly 100% uptime on Deep Freeze the secondary effect from ice.

Yes I can only give an alley Leeching, which is a strong heal, but not as strong as Polar Wind. If you don't want the skins then fine, no worries, but I do have them and earned them all, plus plenty of other peoples on a Warden tank. So I have Warden tanking pretty solidly in hand. Its 700 heal every 2 Seconds you're missing out on, all while staying fully defensive. Its far better then wasting another slot on a skill thats 95% useless to a tank (Lotus) and opening yourself up to 60% + more damage because you're not blocking. The Amalgamation hit for something like 60k, which yeah even a templar tank wouldn't be able to heal thier way through that kind of damage.

I build for tanking not to be the best buff machine. I like PuG ing, it's a fun challenge. I also PvP tank, people are by far the hardest content to tank. So I do loose out on some group support, but a tank going down is the fastest way to wipe. A dead tank is zero group support.

Asardes · February 2018

I really don't take chances there. I keep all 2-3 bosses taunted and maimed trough Heroic Slash. For me the chance to apply maim from Arctic Blast or other skills is simply too low. I always prefer things to be 100% instead of a random one of 1%, 5% or 15%. Even with blocking the roof collapse, and trying not to get hit, if I sit and block both the falling rock and the hits from the bosses I end up dead in about 20-30s even if I spam all those back bar heals, because the balance eventually swings in favor of the enemies. If I roll dodge I take 0 damage from the bosses and if I move a lot I can completely mitigate the damage from the falling roof, albeit it will slightly lower the DPS on those bosses. Race isn't an issue since it's Imperial and has ~40K health and 25K stamina, with about 17K magicka, and those stats are fine. I feel I've hit the limitations and don't really see the point of trying to push that further.

I've played that tank for about 2 weeks to get the whole dungeon pledge cycle and at the end it seemed like I wasted that time in vain, experience wise, but the important part is that I've managed to get 71 undaunted keys and all skill points, which was the initial objective. On top of that I'm pretty sick and tired of tanking since I've wasted almost my entire first 2 years of the game doing such a boring role. I simply can't bring myself to play it any longer and when I do, I perform badly because I have come to thoroughly dislike it.If I need to tank, I can fall on my DK every time and I won't even issue tanking gear to my Warden anymore.I feel I've taken the right decision by pulling the plug, since my DK is a much better tank in every way and Stamina Warden fits the role of PvP oriented DD much better.

aeowulf · February 2018

The only 'fun' tank i found was the sap tank & those days are well gone

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Asardes wrote: »

I really don't take chances there. I keep all 2-3 bosses taunted and maimed trough Heroic Slash. For me the chance to apply maim from Arctic Blast or other skills is simply too low. I always prefer things to be 100% instead of a random one of 1%, 5% or 15%. Even with blocking the roof collapse, and trying not to get hit, if I sit and block both the falling rock and the hits from the bosses I end up dead in about 20-30s even if I spam all those back bar heals, because the balance eventually swings in favor of the enemies. If I roll dodge I take 0 damage from the bosses and if I move a lot I can completely mitigate the damage from the falling roof, albeit it will slightly lower the DPS on those bosses. Race isn't an issue since it's Imperial and has ~40K health and 25K stamina, with about 17K magicka, and those stats are fine. I feel I've hit the limitations and don't really see the point of trying to push that further.

I've played that tank for about 2 weeks to get the whole dungeon pledge cycle and at the end it seemed like I wasted that time in vain, experience wise, but the important part is that I've managed to get 71 undaunted keys and all skill points, which was the initial objective. On top of that I'm pretty sick and tired of tanking since I've wasted almost my entire first 2 years of the game doing such a boring role. I simply can't bring myself to play it any longer and when I do, I perform badly because I have come to thoroughly dislike it.If I need to tank, I can fall on my DK every time and I won't even issue tanking gear to my Warden anymore.I feel I've taken the right decision by pulling the plug, since my DK is a much better tank in every way and Stamina Warden fits the role of PvP oriented DD much better.

Way too much stamina for a Warden tank. Selfish set up I only have 15k, Ebon+ Torug's I have 18.6k stamina and 18.1k mag. Other question is what your mag regen. Mine is 1800. If you're done, you're done though, no fixing back of will to do it anymore. Though I find my Warden out performs DK in everyway except taking the big heavies, like The Warriors Death of a Thousand cuts or if I can't Arctic Blast between every one of Saint Olms swipes.

Asardes · February 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I really don't take chances there. I keep all 2-3 bosses taunted and maimed trough Heroic Slash. For me the chance to apply maim from Arctic Blast or other skills is simply too low. I always prefer things to be 100% instead of a random one of 1%, 5% or 15%. Even with blocking the roof collapse, and trying not to get hit, if I sit and block both the falling rock and the hits from the bosses I end up dead in about 20-30s even if I spam all those back bar heals, because the balance eventually swings in favor of the enemies. If I roll dodge I take 0 damage from the bosses and if I move a lot I can completely mitigate the damage from the falling roof, albeit it will slightly lower the DPS on those bosses. Race isn't an issue since it's Imperial and has ~40K health and 25K stamina, with about 17K magicka, and those stats are fine. I feel I've hit the limitations and don't really see the point of trying to push that further.

I've played that tank for about 2 weeks to get the whole dungeon pledge cycle and at the end it seemed like I wasted that time in vain, experience wise, but the important part is that I've managed to get 71 undaunted keys and all skill points, which was the initial objective. On top of that I'm pretty sick and tired of tanking since I've wasted almost my entire first 2 years of the game doing such a boring role. I simply can't bring myself to play it any longer and when I do, I perform badly because I have come to thoroughly dislike it.If I need to tank, I can fall on my DK every time and I won't even issue tanking gear to my Warden anymore.I feel I've taken the right decision by pulling the plug, since my DK is a much better tank in every way and Stamina Warden fits the role of PvP oriented DD much better.

Way too much stamina for a Warden tank. Selfish set up I only have 15k, Ebon+ Torug's I have 18.6k stamina and 18.1k mag. Other question is what your mag regen. Mine is 1800. If you're done, you're done though, no fixing back of will to do it anymore. Though I find my Warden out performs DK in everyway except taking the big heavies, like The Warriors Death of a Thousand cuts or if I can't Arctic Blast between every one of Saint Olms swipes.

I have 1.5K magicka recovery and don't run out of it. The thing I run out of is health. Not really a big difference there. The increased stamina pool is due to racial passives and I need it to be higher than magicka to get it back from orb synergy (when it happens to have a healer) and also to store it when a heavy attack opportunity opens up; that also heals me a bit because class and race also synergize well here since Green Lotus and Red Diamond heals do stack up sometimes. I run Ebon+Torug+Choklethor+Shadowrend, just as the DK tank. But there isn't simply any magicka dump to benefit form all that recovery or increased stat, while the DK has at least 2, GDB and Ingenous Shield that can be pretty much spam cast. Recasting Arctic Wind every 2s is not worth it simply because the initial heal is much smaller, and it has a HoT component. The hits from the 3 Earthgore bosses do hit almost as hard as the Warrior swipes (~12K when blocking, warded and debuffed with Heroic Slash), and when you have 3 on you they will deplete health even faster as you can get hit 3x in less than 10s, and also get hit by the falling ceiling. I can survive on my DK, but not on my Warden. I wouldn't even try Warrior on my Warden. If a tank of one class survives and the other doesn't using same gear, and similar skills (Arctic Wind vs. GDB), the latter fails and that's it. The only situation where I would pick Warden over DK is tanking bosses with ranged attacks, chiefly on a single skill - Shimmering Shield, because I can load Aggressive Horn faster on it (ex. Lord Warden Dusk, Rakkat). On every other boss encounter in dungeon an trials DK is simply superior in every way. For melee bosses DK is also better because of Igneous Shield which will absorb any type of damage, not only ranged one, and also be distributed to nearby group members. Even if the damage absorbed is not much, since it's considered before block, it will still tip the scale in favor of DK in every such situation. Also stamina sustain is better: 4 Igneous shield casts restore the same amount as ~25s of Bull Netch, and it's trivial to cast that many within ~25s. I also gain 3 ultimate for each cast, if I cast that 6s apart, so 12 in total, which is another 550 stamina when I cast the ultimate.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

The only 'fun' tank i found was the sap tank & those days are well gone

Pretty much this.

I find it incredibly interesting that the devs seem to hate what block tanks have become as a problem for PVP, but dont want to give us any other means of mitigation.

Greydir · February 2018

As @Liofa already stated sustain will not be the main Problem for the Endgame community.
Some calculation results about Sustain are as follows:

Tanks who pushed their Block Cost below 336 will definitely suffer an increase in Block cost. This value is reached on Live if you wear for example a minimum of 3 Glyphs, 2 pieces Sturdy and 25 % Shadow ward (plus standard passives for Tanks) other combinations would be 25 % Shadow ward 2 Glyphs and 7 pieces Sturdy or some kind of combination in that direction.
If your Block cost is in the Ball Park of 336 ~ 600 You will still be able to Get the same or even lower Block costs by making some minor to no changes at all to your Build.
If your Block cost is higher than 600 you will most likely even experience a drop in your Block cost and an increase to your sustain.
If you did not Spec fully into Block cost reduction but invested in some other things like Divines for Magicareg or Potionglyphs or whatever you will most likely not be significantly effected by the Sustain changes towards Block costs.
Every Content is completable with a Blockcost of 300-500, I myself run a Cost of 450 and have completed everything except for vAS HM and vMoL without serious Sustain issues and the last two were not completed because of circumstances that did not hinge on the Sustain issue^^ (Lack of trys for example or a temporary member loss in the raidgroup *sniff*)

Next is the Issue with DK Tanks outperforming other Tanks:
Yes this is very much true in the support department. I to think, that the warden Tank had and has Potential, and i have fun playing it. I think that warden Tanks may still work in groups that are not competing for the Top scores, since the Damage Potential to clear everything is there even without this degree in group optimization but at Some point in the high end tier the DK Tank will be without alternative. This will push the Meta strongly in favour of the DKs again, especially in Fights where the number of Stamina chars is limited.

Nolic1 · February 2018

Greydir wrote: »

As @Liofa already stated sustain will not be the main Problem for the Endgame community.
Some calculation results about Sustain are as follows:

Tanks who pushed their Block Cost below 336 will definitely suffer an increase in Block cost. This value is reached on Live if you wear for example a minimum of 3 Glyphs, 2 pieces Sturdy and 25 % Shadow ward (plus standard passives for Tanks) other combinations would be 25 % Shadow ward 2 Glyphs and 7 pieces Sturdy or some kind of combination in that direction.
If your Block cost is in the Ball Park of 336 ~ 600 You will still be able to Get the same or even lower Block costs by making some minor to no changes at all to your Build.
If your Block cost is higher than 600 you will most likely even experience a drop in your Block cost and an increase to your sustain.
If you did not Spec fully into Block cost reduction but invested in some other things like Divines for Magicareg or Potionglyphs or whatever you will most likely not be significantly effected by the Sustain changes towards Block costs.
Every Content is completable with a Blockcost of 300-500, I myself run a Cost of 450 and have completed everything except for vAS HM and vMoL without serious Sustain issues and the last two were not completed because of circumstances that did not hinge on the Sustain issue^^ (Lack of trys for example or a temporary member loss in the raidgroup *sniff*)

Next is the Issue with DK Tanks outperforming other Tanks:
Yes this is very much true in the support department. I to think, that the warden Tank had and has Potential, and i have fun playing it. I think that warden Tanks may still work in groups that are not competing for the Top scores, since the Damage Potential to clear everything is there even without this degree in group optimization but at Some point in the high end tier the DK Tank will be without alternative. This will push the Meta strongly in favour of the DKs again, especially in Fights where the number of Stamina chars is limited.

The only line that makes the end game meta crowd bad is the forced into DK play style. This again is why the lack of tanks at end game or I should say trials. I see takes of all kinds in dungeons normal and vet even ran Blood Root with a stam nightblade tank the other day and we did do hard mode I just had to show them how to avoid the lava pools and the ceiling drop which is what the fountains do. But can be hard to manage if your not fast on your feet. But truth of the matter is most Trials can be tanked with any tank its the meta thats making it DK only and that is because of the competitive side of things and there for lack of end game tanks.

As stated many times not many like to tank with DK in fact most tanks I know hate DK tanking at end game cause they feel there to lame sorry there words not mine. I think the DK is fine if you like it but forcing the community into something they do not want to play is a major problem even if you do not agree.

Maura_Neysa · February 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I really don't take chances there. I keep all 2-3 bosses taunted and maimed trough Heroic Slash. For me the chance to apply maim from Arctic Blast or other skills is simply too low. I always prefer things to be 100% instead of a random one of 1%, 5% or 15%. Even with blocking the roof collapse, and trying not to get hit, if I sit and block both the falling rock and the hits from the bosses I end up dead in about 20-30s even if I spam all those back bar heals, because the balance eventually swings in favor of the enemies. If I roll dodge I take 0 damage from the bosses and if I move a lot I can completely mitigate the damage from the falling roof, albeit it will slightly lower the DPS on those bosses. Race isn't an issue since it's Imperial and has ~40K health and 25K stamina, with about 17K magicka, and those stats are fine. I feel I've hit the limitations and don't really see the point of trying to push that further.

I've played that tank for about 2 weeks to get the whole dungeon pledge cycle and at the end it seemed like I wasted that time in vain, experience wise, but the important part is that I've managed to get 71 undaunted keys and all skill points, which was the initial objective. On top of that I'm pretty sick and tired of tanking since I've wasted almost my entire first 2 years of the game doing such a boring role. I simply can't bring myself to play it any longer and when I do, I perform badly because I have come to thoroughly dislike it.If I need to tank, I can fall on my DK every time and I won't even issue tanking gear to my Warden anymore.I feel I've taken the right decision by pulling the plug, since my DK is a much better tank in every way and Stamina Warden fits the role of PvP oriented DD much better.

Way too much stamina for a Warden tank. Selfish set up I only have 15k, Ebon+ Torug's I have 18.6k stamina and 18.1k mag. Other question is what your mag regen. Mine is 1800. If you're done, you're done though, no fixing back of will to do it anymore. Though I find my Warden out performs DK in everyway except taking the big heavies, like The Warriors Death of a Thousand cuts or if I can't Arctic Blast between every one of Saint Olms swipes.

I have 1.5K magicka recovery and don't run out of it. The thing I run out of is health. Not really a big difference there. The increased stamina pool is due to racial passives and I need it to be higher than magicka to get it back from orb synergy (when it happens to have a healer) and also to store it when a heavy attack opportunity opens up; that also heals me a bit because class and race also synergize well here since Green Lotus and Red Diamond heals do stack up sometimes. I run Ebon+Torug+Choklethor+Shadowrend, just as the DK tank. But there isn't simply any magicka dump to benefit form all that recovery or increased stat, while the DK has at least 2, GDB and Ingenous Shield that can be pretty much spam cast. Recasting Arctic Wind every 2s is not worth it simply because the initial heal is much smaller, and it has a HoT component. The hits from the 3 Earthgore bosses do hit almost as hard as the Warrior swipes (~12K when blocking, warded and debuffed with Heroic Slash), and when you have 3 on you they will deplete health even faster as you can get hit 3x in less than 10s, and also get hit by the falling ceiling. I can survive on my DK, but not on my Warden. I wouldn't even try Warrior on my Warden. If a tank of one class survives and the other doesn't using same gear, and similar skills (Arctic Wind vs. GDB), the latter fails and that's it. The only situation where I would pick Warden over DK is tanking bosses with ranged attacks, chiefly on a single skill - Shimmering Shield, because I can load Aggressive Horn faster on it (ex. Lord Warden Dusk, Rakkat). On every other boss encounter in dungeon an trials DK is simply superior in every way. For melee bosses DK is also better because of Igneous Shield which will absorb any type of damage, not only ranged one, and also be distributed to nearby group members. Even if the damage absorbed is not much, since it's considered before block, it will still tip the scale in favor of DK in every such situation. Also stamina sustain is better: 4 Igneous shield casts restore the same amount as ~25s of Bull Netch, and it's trivial to cast that many within ~25s. I also gain 3 ultimate for each cast, if I cast that 6s apart, so 12 in total, which is another 550 stamina when I cast the ultimate.

Nature's Gift passive gives you 2 Igneous Shields worth of stamina every 1 cast. Which is 12 Igneous worth in 25. People always compare that wrong.
Natures Gift equals Helping Hand - 250/second (IF healing and Alley) or 990 per cast (max ~380/sec IF spam casting)
Netch equals Battle Roar - 160/sec 190/sec (assuming War Horn 1/min)
Warden doesn't need any conditions for there stamina return, just maintain 2 buffs and you have 410/sec Stamina regen
DK needs Ulti cast on cooldown and to balance between mag and stamina

Wardens get the same Ulti gen from just recasting an Animal skill, and the Netch is free
Giving 5 people Major Ward/Resolve is worth more than a Damage Shield

Tanking the Warrior isnt so bad, but yes and do cast Arctic once per Swipe because all 4 will be more health than I have.

I say way to much Stamina because Wardens regen is all trickle and if you have the highest magicka pool while still being less than stamina, you will get bigger heals. Thats why I run at just a few hundred less. And outside of a known group, I run a few thousand more magicka, because honestly, very few times I need shards (like once every 5 minutes with 6+Axes in AA)

I don't know what else to say, you seem to have significantly less healing potential then fits with my experience, because the Amalgamations, even all 3 with the Roof falling isn't something I die from. Only other thing I can think of is Vampire, Major Mending and Undeath while under 50% health is a very nice combination.

aeowulf · February 2018

now compare that to templar or NB stamina regen.

Templar is erm... no corpse, no stamina

NB is 'i think i'll need some stamina in about 20 seconds so I better spend about 1k now to get it, but if I light attack in 9 seconds i'll break even' That's the least 'fast paced combat' skill I can think of!!

Both really need looking at. Repentance trigger is terrible (but pretty cool nonetheless), and I don't even know where to begin for NB. The skill is useable for NB DPS, and probably just right. But for tanks, it's not good at all... And executioner? bugged, probably - it doesn't give you resources back if you kill something with an assassination ability. Even if it did, there are serious timing issues AND it cost more resource that it returns. The skill slot is much more useful elsewhere than a damaging assassination ability on a non-damaged focused role.

DK/warden have it easy in comparison.

DK healer too - like where are those??! also notable by their absence. I reckon DK/Warden count for 90%+ of tanks in ESO right now? At least where content actually needs a role. Same for Templar/Warden healers. Some areas need serious addressing

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Greydir wrote: »

As @Liofa already stated sustain will not be the main Problem for the Endgame community.
Some calculation results about Sustain are as follows:

Tanks who pushed their Block Cost below 336 will definitely suffer an increase in Block cost. This value is reached on Live if you wear for example a minimum of 3 Glyphs, 2 pieces Sturdy and 25 % Shadow ward (plus standard passives for Tanks) other combinations would be 25 % Shadow ward 2 Glyphs and 7 pieces Sturdy or some kind of combination in that direction.
If your Block cost is in the Ball Park of 336 ~ 600 You will still be able to Get the same or even lower Block costs by making some minor to no changes at all to your Build.
If your Block cost is higher than 600 you will most likely even experience a drop in your Block cost and an increase to your sustain.
If you did not Spec fully into Block cost reduction but invested in some other things like Divines for Magicareg or Potionglyphs or whatever you will most likely not be significantly effected by the Sustain changes towards Block costs.
Every Content is completable with a Blockcost of 300-500, I myself run a Cost of 450 and have completed everything except for vAS HM and vMoL without serious Sustain issues and the last two were not completed because of circumstances that did not hinge on the Sustain issue^^ (Lack of trys for example or a temporary member loss in the raidgroup *sniff*)

Next is the Issue with DK Tanks outperforming other Tanks:
Yes this is very much true in the support department. I to think, that the warden Tank had and has Potential, and i have fun playing it. I think that warden Tanks may still work in groups that are not competing for the Top scores, since the Damage Potential to clear everything is there even without this degree in group optimization but at Some point in the high end tier the DK Tank will be without alternative. This will push the Meta strongly in favour of the DKs again, especially in Fights where the number of Stamina chars is limited.

"Endgame community". What little is left of it.

And yeah, the rest of us? The rest of us can eat it. Very much so, because this is only going to widen the rift behind that nebulous 'community' and the rest of us. We need less fractures, not more.

This change single handedly killed my aspirations to do anything but tank normals and the occasional vet, because I do not have the time nor patience to outfit a tank to raid specs and learn how to play it over something I actually like to play. And everyone who could participate is going to have that exact same reasoning when they decide not to pursue it. You will see the people who actually want to do endgame content slow after these, because it's just widening the rift.

Greydir · February 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Greydir wrote: »

As @Liofa already stated sustain will not be the main Problem for the Endgame community.
Some calculation results about Sustain are as follows:

Tanks who pushed their Block Cost below 336 will definitely suffer an increase in Block cost. This value is reached on Live if you wear for example a minimum of 3 Glyphs, 2 pieces Sturdy and 25 % Shadow ward (plus standard passives for Tanks) other combinations would be 25 % Shadow ward 2 Glyphs and 7 pieces Sturdy or some kind of combination in that direction.
If your Block cost is in the Ball Park of 336 ~ 600 You will still be able to Get the same or even lower Block costs by making some minor to no changes at all to your Build.
If your Block cost is higher than 600 you will most likely even experience a drop in your Block cost and an increase to your sustain.
If you did not Spec fully into Block cost reduction but invested in some other things like Divines for Magicareg or Potionglyphs or whatever you will most likely not be significantly effected by the Sustain changes towards Block costs.
Every Content is completable with a Blockcost of 300-500, I myself run a Cost of 450 and have completed everything except for vAS HM and vMoL without serious Sustain issues and the last two were not completed because of circumstances that did not hinge on the Sustain issue^^ (Lack of trys for example or a temporary member loss in the raidgroup *sniff*)

Next is the Issue with DK Tanks outperforming other Tanks:
Yes this is very much true in the support department. I to think, that the warden Tank had and has Potential, and i have fun playing it. I think that warden Tanks may still work in groups that are not competing for the Top scores, since the Damage Potential to clear everything is there even without this degree in group optimization but at Some point in the high end tier the DK Tank will be without alternative. This will push the Meta strongly in favour of the DKs again, especially in Fights where the number of Stamina chars is limited.

"Endgame community". What little is left of it.

And yeah, the rest of us? The rest of us can eat it. Very much so, because this is only going to widen the rift behind that nebulous 'community' and the rest of us. We need less fractures, not more.

This change single handedly killed my aspirations to do anything but tank normals and the occasional vet, because I do not have the time nor patience to outfit a tank to raid specs and learn how to play it over something I actually like to play. And everyone who could participate is going to have that exact same reasoning when they decide not to pursue it. You will see the people who actually want to do endgame content slow after these, because it's just widening the rift.

I think actually this change will make the gap a little bit smaller in case of the sustain, since the strongly optimized builds for minimal Block cost are, what is hit the most. The change reduces possible Variance from 88 - 2160 to 336 - 1730. Since the scope is far closer together, the result will be that tanking sucsessfully will be more focused to gain experience how to do things. I do not belive that learning mechanics is something that is bad for anyone. Since variance is reduced the less min/max optimized your Tank is in view of Block costs the better he will fare after this patch, some will even, as i said get lower block costs.
The other Change will also do exactly nothing towards any group that will run the content without specialized optimization towards Score Runs. You will still be able to complete and Tank all content with any Tank that was able to do it previously.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Greydir wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Greydir wrote: »

As @Liofa already stated sustain will not be the main Problem for the Endgame community.
Some calculation results about Sustain are as follows:

Tanks who pushed their Block Cost below 336 will definitely suffer an increase in Block cost. This value is reached on Live if you wear for example a minimum of 3 Glyphs, 2 pieces Sturdy and 25 % Shadow ward (plus standard passives for Tanks) other combinations would be 25 % Shadow ward 2 Glyphs and 7 pieces Sturdy or some kind of combination in that direction.
If your Block cost is in the Ball Park of 336 ~ 600 You will still be able to Get the same or even lower Block costs by making some minor to no changes at all to your Build.
If your Block cost is higher than 600 you will most likely even experience a drop in your Block cost and an increase to your sustain.
If you did not Spec fully into Block cost reduction but invested in some other things like Divines for Magicareg or Potionglyphs or whatever you will most likely not be significantly effected by the Sustain changes towards Block costs.
Every Content is completable with a Blockcost of 300-500, I myself run a Cost of 450 and have completed everything except for vAS HM and vMoL without serious Sustain issues and the last two were not completed because of circumstances that did not hinge on the Sustain issue^^ (Lack of trys for example or a temporary member loss in the raidgroup *sniff*)

Next is the Issue with DK Tanks outperforming other Tanks:
Yes this is very much true in the support department. I to think, that the warden Tank had and has Potential, and i have fun playing it. I think that warden Tanks may still work in groups that are not competing for the Top scores, since the Damage Potential to clear everything is there even without this degree in group optimization but at Some point in the high end tier the DK Tank will be without alternative. This will push the Meta strongly in favour of the DKs again, especially in Fights where the number of Stamina chars is limited.

"Endgame community". What little is left of it.

And yeah, the rest of us? The rest of us can eat it. Very much so, because this is only going to widen the rift behind that nebulous 'community' and the rest of us. We need less fractures, not more.

This change single handedly killed my aspirations to do anything but tank normals and the occasional vet, because I do not have the time nor patience to outfit a tank to raid specs and learn how to play it over something I actually like to play. And everyone who could participate is going to have that exact same reasoning when they decide not to pursue it. You will see the people who actually want to do endgame content slow after these, because it's just widening the rift.

I think actually this change will make the gap a little bit smaller in case of the sustain, since the strongly optimized builds for minimal Block cost are, what is hit the most. The change reduces possible Variance from 88 - 2160 to 336 - 1730. Since the scope is far closer together, the result will be that tanking sucsessfully will be more focused to gain experience how to do things. I do not belive that learning mechanics is something that is bad for anyone. Since variance is reduced the less min/max optimized your Tank is in view of Block costs the better he will fare after this patch, some will even, as i said get lower block costs.
The other Change will also do exactly nothing towards any group that will run the content without specialized optimization towards Score Runs. You will still be able to complete and Tank all content with any Tank that was able to do it previously.

Your thinking about it rationally and with math. I'm talking about the people who will refuse to run anything but meta and will actively shame people who do not, refusing them any entry into what is considered the endgame community.

Futhermore, there is no learning of mechanics here. I dispute this on a basic level. There is no variation, there is no adoption of new tactics. It is simply making what we allready do harder with no gain to anyone except PVP players who scream and cry, and will continue to about something else. Sorry, but it's the truth. Does the block change make me want to adopt new strategies? No, makes me want to block less. Makes me want to tank less. Makes me want to play less. Nerfing me and making me more and more useless over the course of patches isn't a way to incientivise me to play. It tells me, that I am not valued, and that I should leave, and find a place, a game, where I am not treated like trash.

I dont tank anything above normals anymore. I dont play anything above normals anymore. Why would I? Anything above normals has become so restrictive because of the sustain changes, and balance changes since then. Throw this on, and why would I ever aspire to anything more? I'm not going to play something I dont enjoy, and what I dont enjoy, is being made to feel less effective. And tanking vet dungeons when all I can think about is how much fun I had then compared to now, because of how much I've been nerfed, isn't fun to me. Nor is being a slave to a guild just to tank content that is more about bragging rights than actual reword. (IE: Raids.)

The only thing that I can think when I try to play vet content anymore is "The way I like to play is dying."

That isn't a message a healthy game sends. I used to be really angry. Now? Now I'm just sad. I play random normals once and a while to remember what was lost but that's about it. I wish desperately this game got the balance team it truely deserved with all the choice the advertisers made it out to be. I wish I could rise as high as my theorycrafting chops could take me. But if wishes were fishes we'd never go hungry.

Greydir · February 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Greydir wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Greydir wrote: »

As @Liofa already stated sustain will not be the main Problem for the Endgame community.
Some calculation results about Sustain are as follows:

Tanks who pushed their Block Cost below 336 will definitely suffer an increase in Block cost. This value is reached on Live if you wear for example a minimum of 3 Glyphs, 2 pieces Sturdy and 25 % Shadow ward (plus standard passives for Tanks) other combinations would be 25 % Shadow ward 2 Glyphs and 7 pieces Sturdy or some kind of combination in that direction.
If your Block cost is in the Ball Park of 336 ~ 600 You will still be able to Get the same or even lower Block costs by making some minor to no changes at all to your Build.
If your Block cost is higher than 600 you will most likely even experience a drop in your Block cost and an increase to your sustain.
If you did not Spec fully into Block cost reduction but invested in some other things like Divines for Magicareg or Potionglyphs or whatever you will most likely not be significantly effected by the Sustain changes towards Block costs.
Every Content is completable with a Blockcost of 300-500, I myself run a Cost of 450 and have completed everything except for vAS HM and vMoL without serious Sustain issues and the last two were not completed because of circumstances that did not hinge on the Sustain issue^^ (Lack of trys for example or a temporary member loss in the raidgroup *sniff*)

Next is the Issue with DK Tanks outperforming other Tanks:
Yes this is very much true in the support department. I to think, that the warden Tank had and has Potential, and i have fun playing it. I think that warden Tanks may still work in groups that are not competing for the Top scores, since the Damage Potential to clear everything is there even without this degree in group optimization but at Some point in the high end tier the DK Tank will be without alternative. This will push the Meta strongly in favour of the DKs again, especially in Fights where the number of Stamina chars is limited.

"Endgame community". What little is left of it.

And yeah, the rest of us? The rest of us can eat it. Very much so, because this is only going to widen the rift behind that nebulous 'community' and the rest of us. We need less fractures, not more.

This change single handedly killed my aspirations to do anything but tank normals and the occasional vet, because I do not have the time nor patience to outfit a tank to raid specs and learn how to play it over something I actually like to play. And everyone who could participate is going to have that exact same reasoning when they decide not to pursue it. You will see the people who actually want to do endgame content slow after these, because it's just widening the rift.

I think actually this change will make the gap a little bit smaller in case of the sustain, since the strongly optimized builds for minimal Block cost are, what is hit the most. The change reduces possible Variance from 88 - 2160 to 336 - 1730. Since the scope is far closer together, the result will be that tanking sucsessfully will be more focused to gain experience how to do things. I do not belive that learning mechanics is something that is bad for anyone. Since variance is reduced the less min/max optimized your Tank is in view of Block costs the better he will fare after this patch, some will even, as i said get lower block costs.
The other Change will also do exactly nothing towards any group that will run the content without specialized optimization towards Score Runs. You will still be able to complete and Tank all content with any Tank that was able to do it previously.

Your thinking about it rationally and with math. I'm talking about the people who will refuse to run anything but meta and will actively shame people who do not, refusing them any entry into what is considered the endgame community.

Futhermore, there is no learning of mechanics here. I dispute this on a basic level. There is no variation, there is no adoption of new tactics. It is simply making what we allready do harder with no gain to anyone except PVP players who scream and cry, and will continue to about something else. Sorry, but it's the truth. Does the block change make me want to adopt new strategies? No, makes me want to block less. Makes me want to tank less. Makes me want to play less. Nerfing me and making me more and more useless over the course of patches isn't a way to incientivise me to play. It tells me, that I am not valued, and that I should leave, and find a place, a game, where I am not treated like trash.

I dont tank anything above normals anymore. I dont play anything above normals anymore. Why would I? Anything above normals has become so restrictive because of the sustain changes, and balance changes since then. Throw this on, and why would I ever aspire to anything more? I'm not going to play something I dont enjoy, and what I dont enjoy, is being made to feel less effective. And tanking vet dungeons when all I can think about is how much fun I had then compared to now, because of how much I've been nerfed, isn't fun to me. Nor is being a slave to a guild just to tank content that is more about bragging rights than actual reword. (IE: Raids.)

The only thing that I can think when I try to play vet content anymore is "The way I like to play is dying."

That isn't a message a healthy game sends. I used to be really angry. Now? Now I'm just sad. I play random normals once and a while to remember what was lost but that's about it. I wish desperately this game got the balance team it truely deserved with all the choice the advertisers made it out to be. I wish I could rise as high as my theorycrafting chops could take me. But if wishes were fishes we'd never go hungry.

Sorry but rational thinking is part of what I do

Further I want to contradict your Statement that there is no Learning of Mechanics. You yourself said, that you want to block less. That is absolutly fine by me. That does however not mean to Tank less. Why? I was in the same spot some time back. when effective Block costs per second where doubled. What most Tanks did, was run some more Pieces of sturdy or just Take it, since their Block cost was already very low to begin with, so it efficiently did not even cause a significant dent to their Stamina. I was (and still am in Parts) not interested to farm or recraft my gear to sturdy, so i took the change and studied the behaviour of most bosses i encountered. This resulted in me learning not only the Big mechanics but also the small ones, like which boss uses which rotation. Most bosses have a very set in Stone movement Pattern. So by repeatedly observing them i was able to Block significantly less and to sustain myself far better than most other people i play with. This in turn lead to me tanking even more, because i was able to survive better than most, so more people went to ask me to tank in their groups. Ultimatly my style of tanking became somewhat more active, which in turn resultet in me enjoying it even more than before.
So while there is less learning of big mechanics, learning the subtle in and outs of bosses does not only result in surviving more, but also results in beeing an alround better Tank.

helena21 · February 2018

Liofa wrote: »

99% of the time , I have only 2 synergies . Conduit and orbs .

Hmm I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be when healers (surprisingly often) refuse to slot orbs.

I agree with you all the way though, the fun about being a tank (and a healer really) was the awesomeness of team support. Focusing just on survival seems to make the whole groupplay less fun and let alone for pugs where tanks will be EVEN harder to get.

And ... why nerf tanks anyway??? Is it really because some people complained about how OP they are in pvp

?

If that's the case, then at least block could be slightly more expensive only in the alliance war the same way as healing is reduced...No?

I think this change clearly shows how ZOS is oriented around casual players and those that would rather complain than trying to become better. Harsh as it sounds every time someone asks for a nerf you should just do the opposite rather than rewarding this lazy mentality.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Greydir wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Greydir wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Greydir wrote: »

As @Liofa already stated sustain will not be the main Problem for the Endgame community.
Some calculation results about Sustain are as follows:

Tanks who pushed their Block Cost below 336 will definitely suffer an increase in Block cost. This value is reached on Live if you wear for example a minimum of 3 Glyphs, 2 pieces Sturdy and 25 % Shadow ward (plus standard passives for Tanks) other combinations would be 25 % Shadow ward 2 Glyphs and 7 pieces Sturdy or some kind of combination in that direction.
If your Block cost is in the Ball Park of 336 ~ 600 You will still be able to Get the same or even lower Block costs by making some minor to no changes at all to your Build.
If your Block cost is higher than 600 you will most likely even experience a drop in your Block cost and an increase to your sustain.
If you did not Spec fully into Block cost reduction but invested in some other things like Divines for Magicareg or Potionglyphs or whatever you will most likely not be significantly effected by the Sustain changes towards Block costs.
Every Content is completable with a Blockcost of 300-500, I myself run a Cost of 450 and have completed everything except for vAS HM and vMoL without serious Sustain issues and the last two were not completed because of circumstances that did not hinge on the Sustain issue^^ (Lack of trys for example or a temporary member loss in the raidgroup *sniff*)

Next is the Issue with DK Tanks outperforming other Tanks:
Yes this is very much true in the support department. I to think, that the warden Tank had and has Potential, and i have fun playing it. I think that warden Tanks may still work in groups that are not competing for the Top scores, since the Damage Potential to clear everything is there even without this degree in group optimization but at Some point in the high end tier the DK Tank will be without alternative. This will push the Meta strongly in favour of the DKs again, especially in Fights where the number of Stamina chars is limited.

"Endgame community". What little is left of it.

And yeah, the rest of us? The rest of us can eat it. Very much so, because this is only going to widen the rift behind that nebulous 'community' and the rest of us. We need less fractures, not more.

This change single handedly killed my aspirations to do anything but tank normals and the occasional vet, because I do not have the time nor patience to outfit a tank to raid specs and learn how to play it over something I actually like to play. And everyone who could participate is going to have that exact same reasoning when they decide not to pursue it. You will see the people who actually want to do endgame content slow after these, because it's just widening the rift.

I think actually this change will make the gap a little bit smaller in case of the sustain, since the strongly optimized builds for minimal Block cost are, what is hit the most. The change reduces possible Variance from 88 - 2160 to 336 - 1730. Since the scope is far closer together, the result will be that tanking sucsessfully will be more focused to gain experience how to do things. I do not belive that learning mechanics is something that is bad for anyone. Since variance is reduced the less min/max optimized your Tank is in view of Block costs the better he will fare after this patch, some will even, as i said get lower block costs.
The other Change will also do exactly nothing towards any group that will run the content without specialized optimization towards Score Runs. You will still be able to complete and Tank all content with any Tank that was able to do it previously.

Your thinking about it rationally and with math. I'm talking about the people who will refuse to run anything but meta and will actively shame people who do not, refusing them any entry into what is considered the endgame community.

Futhermore, there is no learning of mechanics here. I dispute this on a basic level. There is no variation, there is no adoption of new tactics. It is simply making what we allready do harder with no gain to anyone except PVP players who scream and cry, and will continue to about something else. Sorry, but it's the truth. Does the block change make me want to adopt new strategies? No, makes me want to block less. Makes me want to tank less. Makes me want to play less. Nerfing me and making me more and more useless over the course of patches isn't a way to incientivise me to play. It tells me, that I am not valued, and that I should leave, and find a place, a game, where I am not treated like trash.

I dont tank anything above normals anymore. I dont play anything above normals anymore. Why would I? Anything above normals has become so restrictive because of the sustain changes, and balance changes since then. Throw this on, and why would I ever aspire to anything more? I'm not going to play something I dont enjoy, and what I dont enjoy, is being made to feel less effective. And tanking vet dungeons when all I can think about is how much fun I had then compared to now, because of how much I've been nerfed, isn't fun to me. Nor is being a slave to a guild just to tank content that is more about bragging rights than actual reword. (IE: Raids.)

The only thing that I can think when I try to play vet content anymore is "The way I like to play is dying."

That isn't a message a healthy game sends. I used to be really angry. Now? Now I'm just sad. I play random normals once and a while to remember what was lost but that's about it. I wish desperately this game got the balance team it truely deserved with all the choice the advertisers made it out to be. I wish I could rise as high as my theorycrafting chops could take me. But if wishes were fishes we'd never go hungry.

Sorry but rational thinking is part of what I do

Further I want to contradict your Statement that there is no Learning of Mechanics. You yourself said, that you want to block less. That is absolutly fine by me. That does however not mean to Tank less. Why? I was in the same spot some time back. when effective Block costs per second where doubled. What most Tanks did, was run some more Pieces of sturdy or just Take it, since their Block cost was already very low to begin with, so it efficiently did not even cause a significant dent to their Stamina. I was (and still am in Parts) not interested to farm or recraft my gear to sturdy, so i took the change and studied the behaviour of most bosses i encountered. This resulted in me learning not only the Big mechanics but also the small ones, like which boss uses which rotation. Most bosses have a very set in Stone movement Pattern. So by repeatedly observing them i was able to Block significantly less and to sustain myself far better than most other people i play with. This in turn lead to me tanking even more, because i was able to survive better than most, so more people went to ask me to tank in their groups. Ultimatly my style of tanking became somewhat more active, which in turn resultet in me enjoying it even more than before.
So while there is less learning of big mechanics, learning the subtle in and outs of bosses does not only result in surviving more, but also results in beeing an alround better Tank.

I did not say I wanted to block less, I said this change makes me want to block less. This is a important distinction. I did not come to this want organically, I was forced into it, and this is exactly what I detest about these balance changes, ever sheparding me into something I dont want to do in a game who's tagline is all about player choice.

And this is the part where I want to make this crystal clear. If I am to use one setup, make a bloody class with actual depth to it, so it's fun to use. ESO tries to have it's cake and eat it to, a endevor it has never nor will ever succeed in.

Elsewise, you can only improve through observation for so long. You can build a house with crappy stone tools, but that does not change the fact it was likely a inferior product compared to a house made with proper tools and resources. And right now, tanks are, that crappy house, as opposed to the nice ones we have in other games because the tools have not been nerfed to all buggery.

Rational thinking has bugger all to do with it, it's not a problem you can solve with math. At least not on our end. We can either take the hit, mitigate it as best we can, soldier on until such a time as we get a hit we cant take and the system collapses (And inevitable event given how ZOS chooses to continue to balance) or look for another game. I've chosen a little of collum A, a little of collum B. I refuse to play content beyond what I can safely play however the bloody hell I want, and I play other games more often.

In closing: It never ceases to amaze me how far this mentality of self improvement bordering on self mutilation will extend. People are so intent on achieving greatness they never particularly stop to question whether or not it's worth the struggle. It's my disdain of this mentality that's got me to stop playing PVP games. To quote myself: "The only thing you learn when you die about five times to a rep 200 raider in for honor, is that you should have swallowed your pride and left the match."

Liofa · February 2018

helena21 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

99% of the time , I have only 2 synergies . Conduit and orbs .

Hmm I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be when healers (surprisingly often) refuse to slot orbs.

I agree with you all the way though, the fun about being a tank (and a healer really) was the awesomeness of team support. Focusing just on survival seems to make the whole groupplay less fun and let alone for pugs where tanks will be EVEN harder to get.

And ... why nerf tanks anyway??? Is it really because some people complained about how OP they are in pvp ?

If that's the case, then at least block could be slightly more expensive only in the alliance war the same way as healing is reduced...No?

I think this change clearly shows how ZOS is oriented around casual players and those that would rather complain than trying to become better. Harsh as it sounds every time someone asks for a nerf you should just do the opposite rather than rewarding this lazy mentality.

“With this change, we wanted to cut down on the extremes in Block Cost to create a more consistent experience," explains Wrobel. “Top-end players could get block to cost around 100 Stamina, while the average player had to spend over 2000. Since this cost can be applied four times a second, you can drain your entire Stamina bar in the blink of an eye."

Source : https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26307

This is what they said about block cost changes . They think block cost is about skilled gameplay . Funny part is that it is all about gear and CP . Even a one month player can reach the lowest amount of block cost while having absolutely no knowledge of end-game or being nowhere near ''top-end'' . They are basically comparing a freshly created character to an end-game trials tank and balancing around it . 2000 stamina is the block cost you get on just created character with few percentages on CP , not more . Literally , using 1h/s with the passive gets you lower block cost than 2000 . This is pretty much all we had to read from ZOS to understand what is their understanding of balance . We can all talk about game mechanics and trial fights and how tanks evolve around them but ZOS just goes and balances the game around a new character . There is no point discussing this topic anymore , especially after reading that post . We will just go on with these changes .

Zer0oo · February 2018

Liofa wrote: »

helena21 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

99% of the time , I have only 2 synergies . Conduit and orbs .

Hmm I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be when healers (surprisingly often) refuse to slot orbs.

I agree with you all the way though, the fun about being a tank (and a healer really) was the awesomeness of team support. Focusing just on survival seems to make the whole groupplay less fun and let alone for pugs where tanks will be EVEN harder to get.

And ... why nerf tanks anyway??? Is it really because some people complained about how OP they are in pvp ?

If that's the case, then at least block could be slightly more expensive only in the alliance war the same way as healing is reduced...No?

I think this change clearly shows how ZOS is oriented around casual players and those that would rather complain than trying to become better. Harsh as it sounds every time someone asks for a nerf you should just do the opposite rather than rewarding this lazy mentality.

“With this change, we wanted to cut down on the extremes in Block Cost to create a more consistent experience," explains Wrobel. “Top-end players could get block to cost around 100 Stamina, while the average player had to spend over 2000. Since this cost can be applied four times a second, you can drain your entire Stamina bar in the blink of an eye."

Source : https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26307

This is what they said about block cost changes . They think block cost is about skilled gameplay . Funny part is that it is all about gear and CP . Even a one month player can reach the lowest amount of block cost while having absolutely no knowledge of end-game or being nowhere near ''top-end'' . They are basically comparing a freshly created character to an end-game trials tank and balancing around it . 2000 stamina is the block cost you get on just created character with few percentages on CP , not more . Literally , using 1h/s with the passive gets you lower block cost than 2000 . This is pretty much all we had to read from ZOS to understand what is their understanding of balance . We can all talk about game mechanics and trial fights and how tanks evolve around them but ZOS just goes and balances the game around a new character . There is no point discussing this topic anymore , especially after reading that post . We will just go on with these changes .

His explanation does not make any sense. I even expect an average tank to have at least a s&b so his standard block cost would be way lower than 2k. Also reducing block cost does not involve any skill that not an average player could do. Craft or buy a glyph and enchant your jewelry or go sturdy on armor.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

helena21 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

99% of the time , I have only 2 synergies . Conduit and orbs .

Hmm I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be when healers (surprisingly often) refuse to slot orbs.

I agree with you all the way though, the fun about being a tank (and a healer really) was the awesomeness of team support. Focusing just on survival seems to make the whole groupplay less fun and let alone for pugs where tanks will be EVEN harder to get.

And ... why nerf tanks anyway??? Is it really because some people complained about how OP they are in pvp ?

If that's the case, then at least block could be slightly more expensive only in the alliance war the same way as healing is reduced...No?

I think this change clearly shows how ZOS is oriented around casual players and those that would rather complain than trying to become better. Harsh as it sounds every time someone asks for a nerf you should just do the opposite rather than rewarding this lazy mentality.

“With this change, we wanted to cut down on the extremes in Block Cost to create a more consistent experience," explains Wrobel. “Top-end players could get block to cost around 100 Stamina, while the average player had to spend over 2000. Since this cost can be applied four times a second, you can drain your entire Stamina bar in the blink of an eye."

Source : https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26307

This is what they said about block cost changes . They think block cost is about skilled gameplay . Funny part is that it is all about gear and CP . Even a one month player can reach the lowest amount of block cost while having absolutely no knowledge of end-game or being nowhere near ''top-end'' . They are basically comparing a freshly created character to an end-game trials tank and balancing around it . 2000 stamina is the block cost you get on just created character with few percentages on CP , not more . Literally , using 1h/s with the passive gets you lower block cost than 2000 . This is pretty much all we had to read from ZOS to understand what is their understanding of balance . We can all talk about game mechanics and trial fights and how tanks evolve around them but ZOS just goes and balances the game around a new character . There is no point discussing this topic anymore , especially after reading that post . We will just go on with these changes .

His explanation does not make any sense. I even expect an average tank to have at least a s&b so his standard block cost would be way lower than 2k. Also reducing block cost does not involve any skill that not an average player could do. Craft or buy a glyph and enchant your jewelry or go sturdy on armor.

His explination might as well be him talking about grapefruit, but what do you expect from the bloody brainlet who's most quoteable line is 'Tanks are not fun'?

munster1404 · February 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Well if it's for self-sufficient taking, meaning heals, I have a burning question: I've been trying to beat Bloodroot Forge HM with a Warden Tank without healer but my heals are simply too weak to outdo all the damage. I basically die blocking, overwhelmed the heavy hits and the falling roof; I also tried roll dodging but it's pretty unreliable and end up dying all the same since roll dodging breaks block and you can't run with bosses around like a headless chicken since they move from AoE and it's a big DPS loss. And it's not for lack of trying. For one I've been trying to stack Enchanted Forest, Polar Wind, Resolving Vigor and even Green Lotus LA/HA weaves on top of that and doesn't cut it. The Vigor heals are laughable, with ticks around 1.2K and Polar Wind ain't much better. That simply doesn't cut it when getting ~15K hits 2 seconds apart trough block and almost capped resistance.

I've done the same dungeon HM with healer on 1st attempt, beaten the non-HM multiple times without healer and I've also beaten Falkreath Hold HM without healer yesterday, though it was a bit painful, and I had to drop horn for trees almost every time. At least on DK I can hit Green Dragon Blood and top myself up with Vigor rather quickly since I can easily access Major Mending, Minor Vitality and another unique class buff that make it tick for closer to 2K. As a result I've decided to abandon Warden Tanking for now since it's too damn frustrating and continue with that char as PvE DD build and especially PvP damage focused build. I don't really see how I could tank The Warrior without adequate self-heals so if it doesn't cut it for end game, there ain't worth investing time and resources in it.

Your missing the Wardens best heal. Leeching Vines 1300 heal every second you take damage, 700 every second you do damage. Which if you run Arctic Blast instead of Polar Wind is every 2 seconds plus a 30% slow and a 200% chance to apply Minor Maim (15% damage debuff) to all 3 of them without wasting stamina on Heroic Slash.
Leeching will also proc Nature's Gift when it goes to someone else, giving you 250 of your lowest resource every second. Next to the Netch it's a Warden tanks next best skill.
I've pulled off last women standing recoveries on that boss. Fortress, Netch, Leeching, Arctic, Forest → Rez
Now whether thats enough heels for the DPS, I don't know. I think you're better off with 3 VMA DPS builds responsible for their own health or a hybrid DPS/Healer, that's what I've had with me for all my skin runs. Anyway hope that helps.

I front bar the forest and almost never use it. I can even drop my War Horn each time I come back in VDSA. It takes something like Off-Tanking Ozara, or Main Tanking Saint Olms with the healers down before I started needing to rely on the Forest.

Edit: Add this after seeing other replies.
In my opinion, Warden tanks are the best pieces of every other tank at the cost of nothing instant.
- More CL than a DK, put slower to pull off. Upside to Gate is I can Gate for larger targets than can be chained.
- DPS and Leeching Heats of a Night Blade, not as much as NB but more than any other class as a tank.
- Huge Burst heals of a Templar, cost Ultimate, not magic though.
- Sorc... got nothing on this one lol. Not really sure what Sore tank brings, group buffs?

Leeching vines (or the other morph Living Trellis) ends up bring casted on the ally more often than not because the tank always has the highest hit point. So the caster lose out on the self heals. I do wish that the Devs buff the skill so that not only the vines are casted on yourself, it also extends to an additional ally.

rustic_potato · February 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

helena21 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

99% of the time , I have only 2 synergies . Conduit and orbs .

Hmm I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be when healers (surprisingly often) refuse to slot orbs.

I agree with you all the way though, the fun about being a tank (and a healer really) was the awesomeness of team support. Focusing just on survival seems to make the whole groupplay less fun and let alone for pugs where tanks will be EVEN harder to get.

And ... why nerf tanks anyway??? Is it really because some people complained about how OP they are in pvp ?

If that's the case, then at least block could be slightly more expensive only in the alliance war the same way as healing is reduced...No?

I think this change clearly shows how ZOS is oriented around casual players and those that would rather complain than trying to become better. Harsh as it sounds every time someone asks for a nerf you should just do the opposite rather than rewarding this lazy mentality.

“With this change, we wanted to cut down on the extremes in Block Cost to create a more consistent experience," explains Wrobel. “Top-end players could get block to cost around 100 Stamina, while the average player had to spend over 2000. Since this cost can be applied four times a second, you can drain your entire Stamina bar in the blink of an eye."

Source : https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26307

This is what they said about block cost changes . They think block cost is about skilled gameplay . Funny part is that it is all about gear and CP . Even a one month player can reach the lowest amount of block cost while having absolutely no knowledge of end-game or being nowhere near ''top-end'' . They are basically comparing a freshly created character to an end-game trials tank and balancing around it . 2000 stamina is the block cost you get on just created character with few percentages on CP , not more . Literally , using 1h/s with the passive gets you lower block cost than 2000 . This is pretty much all we had to read from ZOS to understand what is their understanding of balance . We can all talk about game mechanics and trial fights and how tanks evolve around them but ZOS just goes and balances the game around a new character . There is no point discussing this topic anymore , especially after reading that post . We will just go on with these changes .

His explanation does not make any sense. I even expect an average tank to have at least a s&b so his standard block cost would be way lower than 2k. Also reducing block cost does not involve any skill that not an average player could do. Craft or buy a glyph and enchant your jewelry or go sturdy on armor.

His explination might as well be him talking about grapefruit, but what do you expect from the bloody brainlet who's most quoteable line is 'Tanks are not fun'?

I refuse to believe that a person in charge of such an important position in the development of the game could be so incompetent. Also he managed to silence all discussions about the block balance changes with such an absurd statement. The statement is more like "I know what I'm doing and I don't have to explain my thoughts to you all."

Bevik · February 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

helena21 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

99% of the time , I have only 2 synergies . Conduit and orbs .

Hmm I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be when healers (surprisingly often) refuse to slot orbs.

I agree with you all the way though, the fun about being a tank (and a healer really) was the awesomeness of team support. Focusing just on survival seems to make the whole groupplay less fun and let alone for pugs where tanks will be EVEN harder to get.

And ... why nerf tanks anyway??? Is it really because some people complained about how OP they are in pvp ?

If that's the case, then at least block could be slightly more expensive only in the alliance war the same way as healing is reduced...No?

I think this change clearly shows how ZOS is oriented around casual players and those that would rather complain than trying to become better. Harsh as it sounds every time someone asks for a nerf you should just do the opposite rather than rewarding this lazy mentality.

“With this change, we wanted to cut down on the extremes in Block Cost to create a more consistent experience," explains Wrobel. “Top-end players could get block to cost around 100 Stamina, while the average player had to spend over 2000. Since this cost can be applied four times a second, you can drain your entire Stamina bar in the blink of an eye."

Source : https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26307

This is what they said about block cost changes . They think block cost is about skilled gameplay . Funny part is that it is all about gear and CP . Even a one month player can reach the lowest amount of block cost while having absolutely no knowledge of end-game or being nowhere near ''top-end'' . They are basically comparing a freshly created character to an end-game trials tank and balancing around it . 2000 stamina is the block cost you get on just created character with few percentages on CP , not more . Literally , using 1h/s with the passive gets you lower block cost than 2000 . This is pretty much all we had to read from ZOS to understand what is their understanding of balance . We can all talk about game mechanics and trial fights and how tanks evolve around them but ZOS just goes and balances the game around a new character . There is no point discussing this topic anymore , especially after reading that post . We will just go on with these changes .

His explanation does not make any sense. I even expect an average tank to have at least a s&b so his standard block cost would be way lower than 2k. Also reducing block cost does not involve any skill that not an average player could do. Craft or buy a glyph and enchant your jewelry or go sturdy on armor.

His explination might as well be him talking about grapefruit, but what do you expect from the bloody brainlet who's most quoteable line is 'Tanks are not fun'?

I refuse to believe that a person in charge of such an important position in the development of the game could be so incompetent. Also he managed to silence all discussions about the block balance changes with such an absurd statement. The statement is more like "I know what I'm doing and I don't have to explain my thoughts to you all."

He might be not right but maybe he is seeing a bigger picture. Been said they are pretty much working for future updates rather than focusing on current problems.

rustic_potato · February 2018

Bevik wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

helena21 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

99% of the time , I have only 2 synergies . Conduit and orbs .

Hmm I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be when healers (surprisingly often) refuse to slot orbs.

I agree with you all the way though, the fun about being a tank (and a healer really) was the awesomeness of team support. Focusing just on survival seems to make the whole groupplay less fun and let alone for pugs where tanks will be EVEN harder to get.

And ... why nerf tanks anyway??? Is it really because some people complained about how OP they are in pvp ?

If that's the case, then at least block could be slightly more expensive only in the alliance war the same way as healing is reduced...No?

I think this change clearly shows how ZOS is oriented around casual players and those that would rather complain than trying to become better. Harsh as it sounds every time someone asks for a nerf you should just do the opposite rather than rewarding this lazy mentality.

“With this change, we wanted to cut down on the extremes in Block Cost to create a more consistent experience," explains Wrobel. “Top-end players could get block to cost around 100 Stamina, while the average player had to spend over 2000. Since this cost can be applied four times a second, you can drain your entire Stamina bar in the blink of an eye."

Source : https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26307

This is what they said about block cost changes . They think block cost is about skilled gameplay . Funny part is that it is all about gear and CP . Even a one month player can reach the lowest amount of block cost while having absolutely no knowledge of end-game or being nowhere near ''top-end'' . They are basically comparing a freshly created character to an end-game trials tank and balancing around it . 2000 stamina is the block cost you get on just created character with few percentages on CP , not more . Literally , using 1h/s with the passive gets you lower block cost than 2000 . This is pretty much all we had to read from ZOS to understand what is their understanding of balance . We can all talk about game mechanics and trial fights and how tanks evolve around them but ZOS just goes and balances the game around a new character . There is no point discussing this topic anymore , especially after reading that post . We will just go on with these changes .

His explanation does not make any sense. I even expect an average tank to have at least a s&b so his standard block cost would be way lower than 2k. Also reducing block cost does not involve any skill that not an average player could do. Craft or buy a glyph and enchant your jewelry or go sturdy on armor.

His explination might as well be him talking about grapefruit, but what do you expect from the bloody brainlet who's most quoteable line is 'Tanks are not fun'?

I refuse to believe that a person in charge of such an important position in the development of the game could be so incompetent. Also he managed to silence all discussions about the block balance changes with such an absurd statement. The statement is more like "I know what I'm doing and I don't have to explain my thoughts to you all."

He might be not right but maybe he is seeing a bigger picture. Been said they are pretty much working for future updates rather than focusing on current problems.

I agree. While we are looking for immediate fixes he might be focusing on the next big chapter update and I hope its not a Morrowind nerf part 2.

SmellyUnlimited · February 2018

Why not simply increase the cost to block in PvP? It could be in the battle spirit, sort of how healing effects are halved etc.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Why not simply increase the cost to block in PvP? It could be in the battle spirit, sort of how healing effects are halved etc.

Because, wrobel doesnt know how to do things the simple and logical way.

victoriana-blue · February 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Why not simply increase the cost to block in PvP? It could be in the battle spirit, sort of how healing effects are halved etc.

Because it's a PvE change too - ZOS has been working toward "tactical blocking" for at least a year now (if you include the development time for HoF).

SmellyUnlimited · February 2018

victoriana-blue wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Why not simply increase the cost to block in PvP? It could be in the battle spirit, sort of how healing effects are halved etc.

Because it's a PvE change too - ZOS has been working toward "tactical blocking" for at least a year now (if you include the development time for HoF).

I’m not even sure how some content can be overcome without full blocking for the duration. Axes is VAA come to mind. If you have a few on you, I definitely don’t have time to heavy attack while one of em lays me flat and go cleaving the group with abandon.

If those numbers are right, and blocking is going to increase by a factor of 3, then I can’t see how you can maintain your stamina.

Can anyone that’s tested on PTS verify how significant the block penalty is now?

Is this all some secret mischief by Sheogorath to absolutely require tanks to max their Mage Guild for Equilibrium?!

aeowulf · February 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

If those numbers are right, and blocking is going to increase by a factor of 3, then I can’t see how you can maintain your stamina.

Try 4+ - for max block cost redux. 88->336 I think it is. but i doubt many run @ 88 so... 3 is prob more accurate for most

Koensol · February 2018

Stamden wrote: »

I never got why people complain about permablocking builds in PvP in the first place. It's annoying, but there is nothing effective about it.

Yea... a permablock magdk is totally ineffective...