Vet+ Content

Epicasballs · February 2018

This game has been balanced around CP 300 for ages now and it would be nice to have a higher difficulty mode for players bored of burning vet dungeon bosses in 20 seconds or less sometimes. It's almost never necessary to bring a healer into 4 mans if you have a tank and 3 dps that know mechanics. I think a Vet+ diffuculty would be nice for some new challenges for long time players.

Vet+ could be balanced around CP 600 and have additional rewards for completing the harder 4 man content e.i. gold jewelry(free up the golden to have 4 overland sets to reduce RNG), gold transmute box once per day for completion(no way for pve players to access gold boxes yet), and new titles for completing each Vet+ dungeon for a faction. Vet+ trials could have x2 gold weapons drop, x3 gold jewelry drop and a 50 stone gold transmute box once per week per account for completinga Vet+ trial. For Vet+ trials add some new titles and a chance for some real crazy rewards like a 1% chance to loot a mount specific to each trial from the final boss.

Instead of nerfing the damage of long time players who have learned to play why not give us something more difficult to test ourselves against. It wouldn't hurt new players as the additonal rewards for completing harder content would be mostly cosmetic. Instead of getting weaker every patch let players continue to develop their characters in harder content while not walling off new players from existing content.

I think it's about time. Stop character nerfs. Buff content.

What are your thoughts?

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Apherius · February 2018

I want this too !

but ... inb4 " just play naked and without cp " comment.

Epicasballs · February 2018

Apherius wrote: »

I want this too !

but ... inb4 " just play naked and without cp " comment.

More punishing yourself than being rearded for playing in more difficult content haha but maybe I'll give it a try.

Epicasballs · February 2018

Should have tittle this thread something inflammatory to get more views and feed back. I am pretty sure everyone hates nerfs and the reason for the nerfs is that we have 690(going to 720) CP in a game balanced around CP 300 so we're clearing content easier than it's intended to be cleared... which makes sense because it balanced around CP 300.

Instead of lowering the skill ceiling raise the difficulty ceiling. All these nerfs every patch only affect players at or near the ceiling and often have adverse consequences for the the players at the floor but are less impactful because the nerfs go mostly unnoticed by those players. I had a CP 473 ask me "what's break free?" while pugging a vet Dire Frost not long ago... you can make whatever changes to the game you want but those changes only affect players that understand the changes. Not all players do. Some players can't even understand the break free mechanic.

Instead of nerfing vet players who "get it" just buff content. An MMO is supposed to be all about character progression but every time we do progress we're nerfed to perform similarly to a CP 300 even though over double that amount of CP exists now.

Power creep is a thing but why not just add another difficulty mode instead of always nerfing character progress to keep the same 'ol content as uninteresting and boring as it it's been for a couple of years now. Buff Content. Stop the nerfs.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

I agree with this sentiment in every level concieveable.

Do not nerf characters, give us new content for those OP characters.

Do what Borderlands 2 did. Borderlands has content that was near impossible unless you had a deep understanding on how to exploit the mechanics and let people play in a high risk, high reward environment. There is no reason we shouldn't do the same today.

Ragnarock41 · February 2018

well, a third difficulty level would be actually very nice.

But if it means just boosting the numbers without improving AI mechanics, then what is the point?

IF its all gonna come down to how big numbers you pull on a dummy, I'll pass, I want more stuff like vDSA and vMA.

Stuff that is hard to git gud at, but the rewards are so good that you find yourself doing it anyways.

Marabornwingrion · February 2018

Yes please, more challenging content.
I get bored very easily when I have no challange in game.

Alp · February 2018

All for having more choice but I think people wanting harder content might be a minority even if its a loud one. Been playing since the release, cp600something and I can barely do the harder veteran dungeons.

Epicasballs · February 2018

Alp wrote: »

All for having more choice but I think people wanting harder content might be a minority even if its a loud one. Been playing since the release, cp600something and I can barely do the harder veteran dungeons.

@Alp

The issue is this though ZOS looks at guilds pad 5 burns on Rakkhat hardmode and says things are too easy so we need to adjust damage at the top. ZOS lowers the ceiling by nerfing damage or group tatics/synergy which also make it harder for less skilled players to complete content because they are also having their damage nerfed.

Adding a new level of difficulty does nothing to affect players still struggling in vet dungeons/trials and gives players with no issue clearing that content another option once they progress thorugh vet trials and hardmodes. ZOS attempts to raise the floor by lowering the ceiling but the floor never moves up when they make changes because almost all players on the floor level don't grasp the changes being made and how that affects the way they should play to be competitive.

ZOS for all their nerfing skills and player progression forgets that you can't nerf player SKILL... keep the power creep because it helps players of all skill levels and create another layer of difficulty for players near the ceiling. Nerfs hurt every player of every skill level but instead of nerfing every 3 months to bring players back to performing at CP 300 levels just buff existing content. This benefits players like yourself Alp because it would make it easier for you to progress through the vet dungeons you struggle with now. I remember Molag Kena being hard when those dungeons first dropped but now we roll in with 3 dps and burn her to 10-15% before 1st shield phase which skips the 2nd and she's dead before we see an atro or double static wall.

Progression is critical in MMO's and this game seriously lacks that element right now. Adding 30 CP every 3 months but nerfing damage to make those gains irrelevant is not progression... it's stagnation. Buff content. Stop Nerfs. Everyone profits.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

TheNightflame · February 2018

Imagine if they made the first set of pad changes all percent based so you're guaranteed to get a lunar phase at 50%, then it's timer based for the rest of the fight like how it is now

Kikke · February 2018

100% agree; wtb Veteran Dungeon type 2. added mechanics, more health, more dmg, more everything. with just cosmetic rewards so the newbs dont cry.

Vaoh · February 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

well, a third difficulty level would be actually very nice.

But if it means just boosting the numbers without improving AI mechanics, then what is the point?

IF its all gonna come down to how big numbers you pull on a dummy, I'll pass, I want more stuff like vDSA and vMA.

Stuff that is hard to git gud at, but the rewards are so good that you find yourself doing it anyways.

I agree with the sentiment, but atm stuff literally dies almost asap. On top of this you can run basically every Vet HM dungeon with 3-4 DPS..... increasing enemy health/damage done by quite a bit would be good enough imo.

Although it would be cool to add additional mechanics to bosses, ZOS cannot realistically put in the time to do that. Adjusting a bunch of numbers is way easier for them to do.

joaaocaampos · February 2018

The nerf comes because of PvP. Balancing. So stop!

"Vet+" = Hardmode! There is no need to create an entire dungeon or trial with a higher difficulty. One boss is just enough. Many people stopped playing World of Warcraft, I was one of them, and having several difficulties for the same content was one of the reasons.

If you want specific content, good! Btw, Zenimax has already confirmed. Hardmode are balanced for CP600+ players.

Normal dungeons: lvl 10 - CP 160
Veteran dungeons: CP300
Hardmode: CP600

Like I said, if you want specific content, you have my support! Yes, I would like to see more challenges. But not a third level of difficulty. This I will never support!

Well... I would like to see another Solo Trial. But not an Arena.

It could be a huge and challenging dungeon. Craglorn has good examples (Group Quest Hubs like Skyreach Hold, Anka-Ra Burial Site and Shada's Tear) that can be a solo challenge.

Epicasballs · February 2018

joaaocaampos wrote: »

The nerf comes because of PvP. Balancing. So stop!

"Vet+" = Hardmode! There is no need to create an entire dungeon or trial with a higher difficulty. One boss is just enough. Many people stopped playing World of Warcraft, I was one of them, and having several difficulties for the same content was one of the reasons.

If you want specific content, good! Btw, Zenimax has already confirmed. Hardmode are balanced for CP600+ players.
Normal dungeons: lvl 10 - CP 160

Veteran dungeons: CP300

Hardmode: CP600

Like I said, if you want specific content, you have my support! Yes, I would like to see more challenges. But not a third level of difficulty. This I will never support!

Well... I would like to see another Solo Trial. But not an Arena.

It could be a huge and challenging dungeon. Craglorn has good examples (Group Quest Hubs like Skyreach Hold, Anka-Ra Burial Site and Shada's Tear) that can be a solo challenge.

Hardmodes are a joke though. VSO hardmode basically doesn't change the fight at all. The nerfs are certainly not based on PvP balance either. Changes to off balance this next patch have far less to do with PvP and far more to do with how much damage was being enabled by the off balance mechanic.

@joaaocaampos why wouldn't you support this change? Explain yourself. Don't just say because WoW... tell me know why you think it's bad for the game. WoW had gear varying in power according to how difficult the content was but that's not a system that would be adopted here.

If more challenging content were added and all it did was give more rewards that can also be obtained in any other difficulty setting how is that bad for the game? More progression is never bad in my opinion. Gives everyone something to work towards. I would escpeically like some way to earn gold dungeon jewelry other than waiting for a lottery win at the Golden each weekend. Why should gear progression be tied to some luck based RNG knightmare?... you should be able to earn it if you have the skill.

idk · February 2018

The next step is the vet trials then vet trials in HM. That is the order of difficulty so the game already has what is being asked for.

Epicasballs · February 2018

idk wrote: »

The next step is the vet trials then vet trials in HM. That is the order of difficulty so the game already has what is being asked for.

It really doesn't though. All 4 man content could use an upgrade by adding a new difficulty setting. VDSA is a joke right now. The only Solo content vMA is a joke right now. Simply increasing the difficulty of VDSA and VMA might lock players still struggling with that content out of ever being able to do it so by adding a 3rd difficulty setting it creates newer challenges for long time players without walling off newer players from completing existing content.

joaaocaampos · February 2018

@Epicasballs

Well, some time ago I created a similar discussion, and received a lot of feedback.

Let me explain...

I say and I say again: there is no need to create a third level of difficulty for dungeons and trials. Basically, all we need is gold jewelry, right? Everything else, we can use Tempering Alloy, Dreugh Wax and Rosin. So... What are my points? Improve the Undaunted Pledges System even more, with more rewards: Legendary Jewels, Undaunted Keys etc. Well, I'm specifically referring to the dungeons, not Trials.

What did I have in mind?

Instead of "Vet+", we would have "Hardmode+". I don't know. Maybe a progressive system, like the Mythic+ Dungeons from World of Warcraft. Then we'd have Hardmode ranks: Hardmode rank 2, rank 3 etc. The higher the rank, the harder the fight is. And again, that's just for the last boss.

How would that work?

For example... Today's Pledges are: Wayrest Sewers 1, Blessed Crucible and White-Gold Tower. So today, I can only get gold jewelry from these 3 dungeons. I'm a healer and I need the SPC legendary jewels. Okay? So... Through WGT Pledge's quest, I reach the last boss. There will be a new scroll. Through this scrolls, I face the hardest version of the boss. When I come back to complete the quest, I get a better reward: 3 Undaunted Keys and a "White-Gold Tower Legendary Box". Inside this box, I can receive a random gold jewel (Spell Power Cure, Essence Thief or Brands of Imperium - Necklace or Ring). That is, I need to wait until the next White-Gold Tower quest to try again.

With a progressive system (Hardmode r2, r3, r4 etc), what would change? Higher rank = more keys. Standard Hardmode = 2 keys; Hardmode Rank 2 = 3 keys; Hardmode Rank 3 = 4 keys, and so on. Maybe two or more jewels.

There are bosses who don't need scroll, right? You need to fulfill certain requirement. As I said above, there would be a second scroll. This system would not add mechanics, but the boss' life, damage, and resistance.

My idea goes beyond that, but I've written too much for now.

munster1404 · February 2018

Epicasballs wrote: »

This game has been balanced around CP 300 for ages now and it would be nice to have a higher difficulty mode for players bored of burning vet dungeon bosses in 20 seconds or less sometimes. It's almost never necessary to bring a healer into 4 mans if you have a tank and 3 dps that know mechanics. I think a Vet+ diffuculty would be nice for some new challenges for long time players.

Vet+ could be balanced around CP 600 and have additional rewards for completing the harder 4 man content e.i. gold jewelry(free up the golden to have 4 overland sets to reduce RNG), gold transmute box once per day for completion(no way for pve players to access gold boxes yet), and new titles for completing each Vet+ dungeon for a faction. Vet+ trials could have x2 gold weapons drop, x3 gold jewelry drop and a 50 stone gold transmute box once per week per account for completinga Vet+ trial. For Vet+ trials add some new titles and a chance for some real crazy rewards like a 1% chance to loot a mount specific to each trial from the final boss.

Instead of nerfing the damage of long time players who have learned to play why not give us something more difficult to test ourselves against. It wouldn't hurt new players as the additonal rewards for completing harder content would be mostly cosmetic. Instead of getting weaker every patch let players continue to develop their characters in harder content while not walling off new players from existing content.

I think it's about time. Stop character nerfs. Buff content.

What are your thoughts?

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Yeah, just give the “gud” players something to bang their head against rather then nerfs to the general population of players. Players (here’s a nod to you content creators out there) are breaking the game AND flaunting it. I don’t mind YouTubers and Twitch partners developing their careers to get likes and subscriptions. But please don’t give the Devs all the wrong signals in game balancing.

idk · February 2018

joaaocaampos wrote: »

@Epicasballs

Well, some time ago I created a similar discussion, and received a lot of feedback.

Let me explain...

I say and I say again: there is no need to create a third level of difficulty for dungeons and trials. Basically, all we need is gold jewelry, right? Everything else, we can use Tempering Alloy, Dreugh Wax and Rosin. So... What are my points? Improve the Undaunted Pledges System even more, with more rewards: Legendary Jewels, Undaunted Keys etc. Well, I'm specifically referring to the dungeons, not Trials.

What did I have in mind?

Instead of "Vet+", we would have "Hardmode+". I don't know. Maybe a progressive system, like the Mythic+ Dungeons from World of Warcraft. Then we'd have Hardmode ranks: Hardmode rank 2, rank 3 etc. The higher the rank, the harder the fight is. And again, that's just for the last boss.

How would that work?

For example... Today's Pledges are: Wayrest Sewers 1, Blessed Crucible and White-Gold Tower. So today, I can only get gold jewelry from these 3 dungeons. I'm a healer and I need the SPC legendary jewels. Okay? So... Through WGT Pledge's quest, I reach the last boss. There will be a new scroll. Through this scrolls, I face the hardest version of the boss. When I come back to complete the quest, I get a better reward: 3 Undaunted Keys and a "White-Gold Tower Legendary Box". Inside this box, I can receive a random gold jewel (Spell Power Cure, Essence Thief or Brands of Imperium - Necklace or Ring). That is, I need to wait until the next White-Gold Tower quest to try again.

With a progressive system (Hardmode r2, r3, r4 etc), what would change? Higher rank = more keys. Standard Hardmode = 2 keys; Hardmode Rank 2 = 3 keys; Hardmode Rank 3 = 4 keys, and so on. Maybe two or more jewels.

There are bosses who don't need scroll, right? You need to fulfill certain requirement. As I said above, there would be a second scroll. This system would not add mechanics, but the boss' life, damage, and resistance.

My idea goes beyond that, but I've written too much for now.

We have that progression system. Normal dungeons, vet dungeons, vet HM dungeons, Vet trials, vet HM trials.

Essentially what is being asked for is already there. Most cannot clear HM dungeons anyhow so vet and vet HM trials is the logical progression for those interested in a stronger challenge. If they cannot handle that then there is no reason to even consider a higher tier of dungeon.

DoctorESO · February 2018

.

Epicasballs · February 2018

@idk

Yes there are players that struggle but the constant nerfs each patch are not helping them either. Instead of nerfing the power creep and hurting the entire population of players why not add another difficulty for those interested?

Players that struggle in vet dungeons and trials stand a better chance of completing the content they struggle with by not receiving the same nerfs targeted at the players who are "overperforming." That is my whole point. You can't nerf skill though. After each nerf good players adapt and move on but up and coming player trying to learn are punished more by nerfs because they haven't mastered the game yet.

Buff existing content. Don't nerf players progression.

Some people play this game strictly for the challenge but the game has become something much less than challenging. I want some day one vMA momments back. Another layer of difficulty doesn't hurt players that currently struggle with content but in the end might benefit them if ZOS would stop balancing the game around the top 1% and gave those players some new challenges instead.

Why are you opposed to having more progression in an MMO? MMOs are built on progression... something this game seriously lacks for players who have been playing for a long time.

Epicasballs · February 2018

@joaaocaampos

That's way too much RNG in a game already filled with way too much RNG for my tastes haha. But I think it's pretty clear to enough people that slaughtering content designed for cp300 isn't much fun any more and it'd be nice to have some new challenges. I'm not saying my ideas are any good but surely something can be done so long time players can feel the rush of a good challenge again in all forms of group content this game has to offer.

Taleof2Cities · February 2018

Looks like you are getting your wish, @Epicasballs ... at least on the difficulty side of Vet+ Hard Mode.

On yesterday’s (2/2) ESO Live, @ZOS_Finn said they tuned up the difficulty of Vet Hard Mode on the two new Dragon Bones dungeons (full video below). Especially so on Scalecaller Peak ... where each player is going to have to “choose a mechanic” during the poison phase of the final boss on Vet Hard Mode.

Regular Vet Mode was dialed back slightly ... and the dungeons only have five bosses each (compared to six bosses in Horns of the Reach).

So, that leads us to your other point: Rewards.

The jury is still out on that one ... since I haven’t actually ran these two dungeons on PTS. But, the rewards don’t seem promising considering the difficulty spike. You can get monster helms on Regular Vet Mode. And, everyone has too many keys stockpiled as it is. The only reward worth Vet+ Hard Mode might be the new Dragon Bones tattoos ... at least that’s my take on it at the time of this forum post.

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/225072483

joaaocaampos · February 2018

idk wrote: »

We have that progression system. Normal dungeons, vet dungeons, vet HM dungeons, Vet trials, vet HM trials.

I agree with you. So I don't support creating a third difficulty. Hardmode with only one boss is the best system I've seen in MMOs. It was a wise choice. That is, "Vet +" is called "Hardmode".

Some time ago, they created two arenas: Dragonstar and Maelstrom. In the Leaderboards, both are classified as "Trials", and there is a difference between "Solo" and "+ (Group)". That is, Trials is not limited to 12 players. There are "Solo Trials" and "4-men Trials". But not everything needs to be "Arena".

JPJINX · February 2018

An adaptive AI that constantly changes mechanics may give more variety to any dungeon. This may keep more people interested; no learning mechanics, so the player would need to develop skills by adaptation. Adaptability is the key to survival.

idk · February 2018

Epicasballs wrote: »

@idk

Yes there are players that struggle but the constant nerfs each patch are not helping them either. Instead of nerfing the power creep and hurting the entire population of players why not add another difficulty for those interested?

Players that struggle in vet dungeons and trials stand a better chance of completing the content they struggle with by not receiving the same nerfs targeted at the players who are "overperforming." That is my whole point. You can't nerf skill though. After each nerf good players adapt and move on but up and coming player trying to learn are punished more by nerfs because they haven't mastered the game yet.

Buff existing content. Don't nerf players progression.

Some people play this game strictly for the challenge but the game has become something much less than challenging. I want some day one vMA momments back. Another layer of difficulty doesn't hurt players that currently struggle with content but in the end might benefit them if ZOS would stop balancing the game around the top 1% and gave those players some new challenges instead.

Why are you opposed to having more progression in an MMO? MMOs are built on progression... something this game seriously lacks for players who have been playing for a long time.

Not really the case. Since those that clear the most challenging content in the game can still clear the most challenging content in the game it is it is clearly not huge nerfs causing issues. Regardless, this does nothing to support the OPs suggestion.

Further, it ignores the progression route I mentioned here earlier. Want more challenge then then go to trials. That is the intent of this MMORPG and many other top games.

It is the main reason the suggestion in this thread will not happen. If anything the opposite will happen with 4 man dungeons. We have seen that with vICP and vWGT that they eventually get nerfed.

idk · February 2018

joaaocaampos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

We have that progression system. Normal dungeons, vet dungeons, vet HM dungeons, Vet trials, vet HM trials.

I agree with you. So I don't support creating a third difficulty. Hardmode with only one boss is the best system I've seen in MMOs. It was a wise choice. That is, "Vet +" is called "Hardmode".

Some time ago, they created two arenas: Dragonstar and Maelstrom. In the Leaderboards, both are classified as "Trials", and there is a difference between "Solo" and "+ (Group)". That is, Trials is not limited to 12 players. There are "Solo Trials" and "4-men Trials". But not everything needs to be "Arena".

And it is generally expected based on how Zos has proceeded that they will add more content along the lines of DSA, MA, AS. Content that does not truly fit the trial description. The cadence has not been consistent, but considering Zos is looking for a person to work on trials it could be a faster pace then we have seen.

BTW, 6-8 man has been what many have requested along these lines for a couple years. Just FYI. It would be a nice fit of variety.

joaaocaampos · February 2018

idk wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

We have that progression system. Normal dungeons, vet dungeons, vet HM dungeons, Vet trials, vet HM trials.

I agree with you. So I don't support creating a third difficulty. Hardmode with only one boss is the best system I've seen in MMOs. It was a wise choice. That is, "Vet +" is called "Hardmode".

Some time ago, they created two arenas: Dragonstar and Maelstrom. In the Leaderboards, both are classified as "Trials", and there is a difference between "Solo" and "+ (Group)". That is, Trials is not limited to 12 players. There are "Solo Trials" and "4-men Trials". But not everything needs to be "Arena".

And it is generally expected based on how Zos has proceeded that they will add more content along the lines of DSA, MA, AS. Content that does not truly fit the trial description. The cadence has not been consistent, but considering Zos is looking for a person to work on trials it could be a faster pace then we have seen.

BTW, 6-8 man has been what many have requested along these lines for a couple years. Just FYI. It would be a nice fit of variety.

Yeah. That! We have the basic PvE contents: Group Dungeons (4-man) and Trials (12-man), but, like Maelstrom, Zenimax can create a different type of "Trial" for a Chapter or DLC. The challenge may be there. It could be solo, 4-man or 8-man, for example. Instead of "Monster Set" or "Special Weapons", these contents can, in addition to Sets, offer us unique rewards!

As I said earlier, I loved Skyreach Catacombs and Skyreach Hold. I would like to see more places like those. Craglorn's problem is: the idea of "Group Delve" or "Group Quest Hub" is great, but the problem is that it is instanced. "Instanced" should be a specific content, such as the one we are discussing: "solo, 4-man or 8-man".

What do I expect from the next "Chapter"? A usual 12-man Trial, plus a Trial Solo.

fred.thomsonb16_ESO · February 2018

After no death and speed run at max cp you should unlock + mode, making dailies actually pleasurable.