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Don't nerf block cost
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Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rustic_potato wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »There's an above poster who points out bloodroot forge. I'll do one better and point out Mazzatun, and Velidreth from COS. We need permablock, or we need a great number of damage nerfs to the bosses in question.
Pick one. You cant have both.
Ok I'm gonna laugh here. If you are permablocking in dungeons you are doing something really wrong. Other than Axes i don't see a need to permablock trials either. You are gimping your group a lot by not giving torug's crusher if you are going for a full tank build. If you are not going for full tankiness and competent enough to survive without it you should be doing DPS using a bow back or 2h back bar.
There are many ways you could permablock even after the nerf but most of them are just lazy builds gimping the group. Tanking is a hard role to do properly. Permablock tanks are the most annoying and incompetent ones out there.
Then you're either not playing vet dungeons, or you're completely omiting multiple boss fights.
Try not blocking HM Domihaus (I think that's the boss of falkreath)) for 80% of the time and see what happens. Or Mazatun. Or Mighty Chudan. Or about half a dozen other boss fights. And even then, the problem isn't the fact we want to permablock, it's the fact we're having enough trouble keeping our stamina, to the point where if it goes on for much longer, team support will become a pipe dream because we wont have the resources to make that a reality.
All it's gonna take is a few more reductions in our sustain before we'll have to build just to sustain block for around 60% uptime and nothing else. Look at the bigger picture, I beg of you.
Let me say again you can do vet DLC dungeons with 1 bar SnB and back bar bow. You will do upwards of 15k dps while maintaining aggro. That's more than most pug DPS can do and it is kinda needed to complete said dungeons when you are pugging.
Block only heavy hits. That has been ZOS mantra for tanking. From what you posted I'm assuming that you are a inexperienced tank. Permablocking is a bad crutch for a tank in PVE. The faster you get out of that habit the better tank you will be. Most experienced tanks right now on live have stated that this change doesnt affect them as the forum whiners are claiming to be. I noticed that all i needed to do was an extra HA in my rotation that's pretty much the extent of this nerf. I really dont want to use this phrase but please get gud.
1. I've been playing since the beta. Inexperienced? No, I've been here a while, and the only reason my forum account does not show that is because I switched ISP's and lost my account, and didn't come back for a year. I yearn for the days pre imperial city. I yearn for a game untouched by our current lead combat designer.
2. I have spent every single attempt at a tank build to build a tank as an active experience, to eschew blocking almost entirely. I am a great fan of healtanks. Had you read anything I ever posted you'd know that. I have no interest in permablocking, hate it, and wish other means of mitigation were available. In fact, I'd love for fights like axes, and Rakkat be changed so we could turn it into this experience. So we could make tanks more freaking engaging instead of the same teambuff rotation and holding block that -does not think of my own mortality-. I've stated it so many times, Neverwinter Online, a free to play game with half ESO's budget, did ESO's tanking rotation, did it better, did it more engagingly, and -I wish ESO would take a page out of they're book-.
3. You're success is likely attributeable to you're healer, because based on the mitigation we currently have you're either using stuff like damage shields or you're healer is working freaking overtime.
4. If you didn't want to use the phrase, you wouldn't use the phrase.
It is very clear you are just going to see what you want to see in reguards to anyone arguing against this change, and It's sad that I must now classify you under the 'unfit to consult' catagory. At least to me. Sorry, but I'm not going to defend positions people think I hold, just the ones I actually do.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on February 1, 2018 7:59AM2 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
You realise the change to lower the base block-cost is a buff for PvP right? These players that could take "godly" amount of damage and stay tanky + do damage, will have an even easier time to do it next patch since many weren´t even using block-cost enchants to begin with.
It wasn´t a necessary change for PvP, overperforming mitigation + healing/healingdebuffs is what needs to be tuned down in PvP.
PvE tanks always find a wae around nerfs so I´ve no doubt they will overcome this nerf/change as well.Edited by Qbiken on February 1, 2018 7:59AM1 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
You realise the change to lower the base block-cost is a buff for PvP right? These players that could take "godly" amount of damage and stay tanky + do damage, will have an even easier time to do it next patch since many weren´t even using block-cost enchants to begin with.
It wasn´t a necessary change for PvP, overperforming mitigation + healing/healingdebuffs is what needs to be tuned down in PvP.
PvE tanks always find a wae around nerfs so I´ve no doubt they will overcome this nerf/change as well.
This, all the freaking way.
Not only will the problem get -worse- in PVP, it was never the issue, and while we -can- adapt, it's still -a change that does not even do much- other than nerf us.0 -
DoonerSeraph✭✭✭✭Just quoting here what Gina said about balancing block in November, we can see that these block changes were mostly aimed for PvP, since one of their possible solutions was adding a CP star or item set (shieldbreaker 2.0 ugh) to counter it.
And about what people says that full block tanks with enchants doesnt exist in PvP because they dont do any damage, remember that these guys have a serious advantage on some BG modes (Relic, Chaosball, even domination by sitting in flags). If these changes were the right ones to deal with it, I dont think so.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
Goal: Investigating Perma-blocking- Adjust the block calculations so that cost reduction happens first (might have to reduce the block cost slightly as a result)
- Investigate adding something to Champion passives, or an item set to increase the block cost
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code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »I yearn for the days pre imperial city. I yearn for a game untouched by our current lead combat designer.
I most certainly do not yearn for a return to the dark ages. To a time when balance was worse, when most skills were worthless, when combat was anything but engaging.
While I don't agree with everything that's happened in the past couple of years (in particular, Morrowind), the overall combat is much more interesting now than what it used to be.
The block cost change is fine. The old formula of putting the flat reduction at the end made no sense, was inconsistent with how other cost reduction worked in the game, and made it possible to get costs down to ludicrously low levels. This was clearly broken, and sooner or later, it needed to be fixed.
The real problem isn't block cost--it's that other aspects of the game disincentivize tactical blocking. To use the Domihaus example that people have brought up--if you can reliably spot the boss's heavy attack during the final phase of the fight when there are adds in the way and all sorts of particle effects going off, then good for you, you have better eyesight (and clearer graphics) than me. And hopefully these other bits will be addressed in the future. But other parts of the game not being perfect doesn't justify keeping a clearly-nonsensical cost formula around.Edited by code65536 on February 1, 2018 11:19PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.1 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »I yearn for the days pre imperial city. I yearn for a game untouched by our current lead combat designer.
I most certainly do not yearn for a return to the dark ages. To a time when balance was worse, when most skills were worthless, when combat was anything but engaging.
While I don't agree with everything that's happened in the past couple of years (in particular, Morrowind), the overall combat is much more interesting now than what it used to be.
The block cost change is fine. The old formula of putting the flat reduction at the end made no sense, was inconsistent with how other block cost reduction worked in the game, and made it possible to get costs down to ludicrously low levels. This was clearly broken, and sooner or later, it needed to be fixed.
The real problem isn't block cost--it's that other aspects of the game disincentivize tactical blocking. To use the Domihaus example that people have brought up--if you can reliably spot the boss's heavy attack during the final phase of the fight when there are adds in the way and all sorts of particle effects going off, then good for you, you have better eyesight (and clearer graphics) than me. And hopefully these other bits will be addressed in the future. But other parts of the game not being perfect doesn't justify keeping a clearly-nonsensical cost formula around.
Firstly, dark ages? What are we now, the dimly friggin' lit ages?
Secondly, I absolutely agree, it is the parts of the game that disincentivize Tactical blocking. But that works off faith that they -will- change those bossfights. I dont. I really dont.
It's likely just going to be a situation where they try to phase the old raids out through better design. Much like how WoW does it.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on February 1, 2018 11:08PM0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?Edited by Doctordarkspawn on February 2, 2018 3:02AM0 -
rustic_potato✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »There's an above poster who points out bloodroot forge. I'll do one better and point out Mazzatun, and Velidreth from COS. We need permablock, or we need a great number of damage nerfs to the bosses in question.
Pick one. You cant have both.
Ok I'm gonna laugh here. If you are permablocking in dungeons you are doing something really wrong. Other than Axes i don't see a need to permablock trials either. You are gimping your group a lot by not giving torug's crusher if you are going for a full tank build. If you are not going for full tankiness and competent enough to survive without it you should be doing DPS using a bow back or 2h back bar.
There are many ways you could permablock even after the nerf but most of them are just lazy builds gimping the group. Tanking is a hard role to do properly. Permablock tanks are the most annoying and incompetent ones out there.
Then you're either not playing vet dungeons, or you're completely omiting multiple boss fights.
Try not blocking HM Domihaus (I think that's the boss of falkreath)) for 80% of the time and see what happens. Or Mazatun. Or Mighty Chudan. Or about half a dozen other boss fights. And even then, the problem isn't the fact we want to permablock, it's the fact we're having enough trouble keeping our stamina, to the point where if it goes on for much longer, team support will become a pipe dream because we wont have the resources to make that a reality.
All it's gonna take is a few more reductions in our sustain before we'll have to build just to sustain block for around 60% uptime and nothing else. Look at the bigger picture, I beg of you.
Let me say again you can do vet DLC dungeons with 1 bar SnB and back bar bow. You will do upwards of 15k dps while maintaining aggro. That's more than most pug DPS can do and it is kinda needed to complete said dungeons when you are pugging.
Block only heavy hits. That has been ZOS mantra for tanking. From what you posted I'm assuming that you are a inexperienced tank. Permablocking is a bad crutch for a tank in PVE. The faster you get out of that habit the better tank you will be. Most experienced tanks right now on live have stated that this change doesnt affect them as the forum whiners are claiming to be. I noticed that all i needed to do was an extra HA in my rotation that's pretty much the extent of this nerf. I really dont want to use this phrase but please get gud.
1. I've been playing since the beta. Inexperienced? No, I've been here a while, and the only reason my forum account does not show that is because I switched ISP's and lost my account, and didn't come back for a year. I yearn for the days pre imperial city. I yearn for a game untouched by our current lead combat designer.
2. I have spent every single attempt at a tank build to build a tank as an active experience, to eschew blocking almost entirely. I am a great fan of healtanks. Had you read anything I ever posted you'd know that. I have no interest in permablocking, hate it, and wish other means of mitigation were available. In fact, I'd love for fights like axes, and Rakkat be changed so we could turn it into this experience. So we could make tanks more freaking engaging instead of the same teambuff rotation and holding block that -does not think of my own mortality-. I've stated it so many times, Neverwinter Online, a free to play game with half ESO's budget, did ESO's tanking rotation, did it better, did it more engagingly, and -I wish ESO would take a page out of they're book-.
3. You're success is likely attributeable to you're healer, because based on the mitigation we currently have you're either using stuff like damage shields or you're healer is working freaking overtime.
4. If you didn't want to use the phrase, you wouldn't use the phrase.
It is very clear you are just going to see what you want to see in reguards to anyone arguing against this change, and It's sad that I must now classify you under the 'unfit to consult' catagory. At least to me. Sorry, but I'm not going to defend positions people think I hold, just the ones I actually do.
1. My bad I was assuming so since most of the tanks that I interact with permablock and cant do anything more than being buff machines. Its boring af to tank like that.
2. As long as permablocking is possible people will do it. I changed my tanking from permablocking only when i started to tank on my templar cos i couldnt sustain it. I learnt to active tank fights as a heal tank and when I went back to my DK I started playing around with adding DPS to the mix. Though removing the permablock option is against ZOS philosophy of play as you want. I guess it could be counted as a bug that is getting fixed.
3. Yeah I have good heals that buff the crap out of me for me to hit such numbers when when tanking. Isn't that their role? Lazy healers have no place in groups that i run with. I play with a close group of friends and everyone in the group can perform all roles perfectly. The idea of using a 2h or a bow back bar on a dk for DPS was a suggestion of another friend of mine.
4. Refusal to adapt and change means you are choosing the easy way out.I play how I want to.0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rustic_potato wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »There's an above poster who points out bloodroot forge. I'll do one better and point out Mazzatun, and Velidreth from COS. We need permablock, or we need a great number of damage nerfs to the bosses in question.
Pick one. You cant have both.
Ok I'm gonna laugh here. If you are permablocking in dungeons you are doing something really wrong. Other than Axes i don't see a need to permablock trials either. You are gimping your group a lot by not giving torug's crusher if you are going for a full tank build. If you are not going for full tankiness and competent enough to survive without it you should be doing DPS using a bow back or 2h back bar.
There are many ways you could permablock even after the nerf but most of them are just lazy builds gimping the group. Tanking is a hard role to do properly. Permablock tanks are the most annoying and incompetent ones out there.
Then you're either not playing vet dungeons, or you're completely omiting multiple boss fights.
Try not blocking HM Domihaus (I think that's the boss of falkreath)) for 80% of the time and see what happens. Or Mazatun. Or Mighty Chudan. Or about half a dozen other boss fights. And even then, the problem isn't the fact we want to permablock, it's the fact we're having enough trouble keeping our stamina, to the point where if it goes on for much longer, team support will become a pipe dream because we wont have the resources to make that a reality.
All it's gonna take is a few more reductions in our sustain before we'll have to build just to sustain block for around 60% uptime and nothing else. Look at the bigger picture, I beg of you.
Let me say again you can do vet DLC dungeons with 1 bar SnB and back bar bow. You will do upwards of 15k dps while maintaining aggro. That's more than most pug DPS can do and it is kinda needed to complete said dungeons when you are pugging.
Block only heavy hits. That has been ZOS mantra for tanking. From what you posted I'm assuming that you are a inexperienced tank. Permablocking is a bad crutch for a tank in PVE. The faster you get out of that habit the better tank you will be. Most experienced tanks right now on live have stated that this change doesnt affect them as the forum whiners are claiming to be. I noticed that all i needed to do was an extra HA in my rotation that's pretty much the extent of this nerf. I really dont want to use this phrase but please get gud.
1. I've been playing since the beta. Inexperienced? No, I've been here a while, and the only reason my forum account does not show that is because I switched ISP's and lost my account, and didn't come back for a year. I yearn for the days pre imperial city. I yearn for a game untouched by our current lead combat designer.
2. I have spent every single attempt at a tank build to build a tank as an active experience, to eschew blocking almost entirely. I am a great fan of healtanks. Had you read anything I ever posted you'd know that. I have no interest in permablocking, hate it, and wish other means of mitigation were available. In fact, I'd love for fights like axes, and Rakkat be changed so we could turn it into this experience. So we could make tanks more freaking engaging instead of the same teambuff rotation and holding block that -does not think of my own mortality-. I've stated it so many times, Neverwinter Online, a free to play game with half ESO's budget, did ESO's tanking rotation, did it better, did it more engagingly, and -I wish ESO would take a page out of they're book-.
3. You're success is likely attributeable to you're healer, because based on the mitigation we currently have you're either using stuff like damage shields or you're healer is working freaking overtime.
4. If you didn't want to use the phrase, you wouldn't use the phrase.
It is very clear you are just going to see what you want to see in reguards to anyone arguing against this change, and It's sad that I must now classify you under the 'unfit to consult' catagory. At least to me. Sorry, but I'm not going to defend positions people think I hold, just the ones I actually do.
1. My bad I was assuming so since most of the tanks that I interact with permablock and cant do anything more than being buff machines. Its boring af to tank like that.
2. As long as permablocking is possible people will do it. I changed my tanking from permablocking only when i started to tank on my templar cos i couldnt sustain it. I learnt to active tank fights as a heal tank and when I went back to my DK I started playing around with adding DPS to the mix. Though removing the permablock option is against ZOS philosophy of play as you want. I guess it could be counted as a bug that is getting fixed.
3. Yeah I have good heals that buff the crap out of me for me to hit such numbers when when tanking. Isn't that their role? Lazy healers have no place in groups that i run with. I play with a close group of friends and everyone in the group can perform all roles perfectly. The idea of using a 2h or a bow back bar on a dk for DPS was a suggestion of another friend of mine.
4. Refusal to adapt and change means you are choosing the easy way out.
4 is proof you see what you wish to. Never ran a blocktank, never will. And adaption wont make circumstances in reguard to mitigation just change overnight. Goodbye.
PS: My Templar Tank build has been utilizing biting jabs, vampires bane, and other dots since the day it was concieved. I also do DPS, allthough not alot. I could likely do more than 5K if I put my mind to it, but instead focus on team support and other mitigation. Once again, you argue with a perception, and not a person. Right now, I've 'adapted' my build to substitute vampires bane for purifying light, and added Degeneration. Maybe you should take the time to ask rather than talking at someone.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on February 2, 2018 3:16AM0 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭*PVE
From my point of view , I guess what we discuss about the permablock tank should be focused on difficult content , DLC HM or V-trails .
Beside , Pet sorc with big shield is better , real tank is not required . We ran 4 dps to complete VDSA over 20 times until we found a tank friend lol .
What do you guys expect a real tank jobs , buffs , debuffs , positioning , res pick up are not enough? Also It can be done during block status mostly , why don't block?
Unless your build is semi-dps , but can you tank well at above content with this build ?
1 -
Splattercat_83✭✭✭✭Maybe you PvErs need to equip REAL tanking gear now like Hist Bark or IronBlood or even Alternation Mastery for more block reduction.
Stop whining , the Alkosh can be equiped in one of the dpses , not a big deal.
Tanks wear Alkosh, because the other stam DPS in group are wearing other debuff set. Its called group composition I know it isn't that big of a deal when you got 30 guys in your own alliance running over 1 guy on the alessia bridge but when its 12 guys going up against Rakkat then its a little different. You need all the debuffs and DPS you can get. If it wasn't for PVP, PVE would not be getting the stupid nerfs that we have been getting patch after patch.1 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭Maybe you PvErs need to equip REAL tanking gear now like Hist Bark or IronBlood or even Alternation Mastery for more block reduction.
Stop whining , the Alkosh can be equiped in one of the dpses , not a big deal.
Y *** bother. You can tank vet trials in medium armour. If you're good with boss mechanics you can cast lightning wall/harness magica/blood alter/heavy attack in trials without getting completely destroyed.
With that said, I have to agree with the above posters. This nerf was targeted to the pve scene. They could have adjusted battle spirit but instead went with a blanket nerf. I have a problem with lazy blanket nerfs.1 -
Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭This change is just stupid.
For pvp:
It will be just a buff for most "semi-perm-blocking" builds a.k.a. mag dks. It still will be a nerf to troll-tanks but they were most of the time just useless and had no damage at all.
For pve:- What i really dislike is that it mostly punishes inexperience tanks since they have it way harder to to judge what hits they can just eat and which they need to block.
- Tanks in bad groups will have it harder since a good group will just kill the boss really fast but for a not as good group a fight may take a while and it will drain the resources of a tank the longer the fight takes. It makes a big difference if a fight takes 2 min or 10 min.
- Bad tanking classes will also feel the nerf way harder than the meta tank classes.
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus3 -
Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The whole block scenario is the biggest load of utter shite I have ever seen.
"REACT TACTICALLY AND DON'T SPAM BLOCK"
That would be fine if all the content wasn't lazily designed around permablock with "difficulty" being adding an extra 0 to the bosses health bar, and more OHKOs to deal with. That would be fine if blocking tactically once every 2s didn't stop your stam the same as blocking constantly. That'd be fine if constant changes didn't gut blocking and sustain totally.
MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.6 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.
"Yes, but only to a certain extent".
Nooot really.
Because of the onus being put on blocking in high end content with increased difficulty usually coming from extended healthbars, and one hit KO moves, it's not gonna be 'to a certain extent'. It's gonna be, the next patch that puts more onus on health or stam to the point where we need to press ourselves harder will break the roll, and people will leave.
So I hope you're grand dream of PVP is worth the people that leave, because of these kinds of sweeping changes have the impact that we fear, you wont have it for very long. Take a look at Shadowbane and every other MMO which has catered to the people like you who would likely describe themselves as 'wolves'. ESO couldn't survive off PVP alone when it was released, and it wont be able to now, mark my words. Just like Shadowbane couldn't survive without the 'sheep' in order to keep the population up. And given the majority of content for this game is PVE...who do you think brings home the bread?
You need us. But you wont ever admit it until things get ready to shut down. And by then it'll be too late.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on February 3, 2018 1:43AM2 -
Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.
"Yes, but only to a certain extent".
Nooot really.
Because of the onus being put on blocking in high end content with increased difficulty usually coming from extended healthbars, and one hit KO moves, it's not gonna be 'to a certain extent'. It's gonna be, the next patch that puts more onus on health or stam to the point where we need to press ourselves harder will break the roll, and people will leave.
So I hope you're grand dream of PVP is worth the people that leave, because of these kinds of sweeping changes have the impact that we fear, you wont have it for very long.
Someone's bitter lol. Changes looking pretty good so far tbh bro. Should have increased slightly more though.0 -
Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭The whole block scenario is the biggest load of utter shite I have ever seen.
"REACT TACTICALLY AND DON'T SPAM BLOCK"
That would be fine if all the content wasn't lazily designed around permablock with "difficulty" being adding an extra 0 to the bosses health bar, and more OHKOs to deal with. That would be fine if blocking tactically once every 2s didn't stop your stam the same as blocking constantly. That'd be fine if constant changes didn't gut blocking and sustain totally.
I hit "insightful" so youd have one of each.1 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.
"Yes, but only to a certain extent".
Nooot really.
Because of the onus being put on blocking in high end content with increased difficulty usually coming from extended healthbars, and one hit KO moves, it's not gonna be 'to a certain extent'. It's gonna be, the next patch that puts more onus on health or stam to the point where we need to press ourselves harder will break the roll, and people will leave.
So I hope you're grand dream of PVP is worth the people that leave, because of these kinds of sweeping changes have the impact that we fear, you wont have it for very long.
Someone's bitter lol. Changes looking pretty good so far tbh bro. Should have increased slightly more though.
I hope you like dead games. Because you're fast on you're way to making one.0 -
Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.
"Yes, but only to a certain extent".
Nooot really.
Because of the onus being put on blocking in high end content with increased difficulty usually coming from extended healthbars, and one hit KO moves, it's not gonna be 'to a certain extent'. It's gonna be, the next patch that puts more onus on health or stam to the point where we need to press ourselves harder will break the roll, and people will leave.
So I hope you're grand dream of PVP is worth the people that leave, because of these kinds of sweeping changes have the impact that we fear, you wont have it for very long.
Someone's bitter lol. Changes looking pretty good so far tbh bro. Should have increased slightly more though.
I hope you like dead games. Because you're fast on you're way to making one.
I dont work for ZOS or come up woth their design changes lmao. But keep telling yourself that. PS you should L2P. The block change isn't that bad. You been on the PTS yet?1 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.
"Yes, but only to a certain extent".
Nooot really.
Because of the onus being put on blocking in high end content with increased difficulty usually coming from extended healthbars, and one hit KO moves, it's not gonna be 'to a certain extent'. It's gonna be, the next patch that puts more onus on health or stam to the point where we need to press ourselves harder will break the roll, and people will leave.
So I hope you're grand dream of PVP is worth the people that leave, because of these kinds of sweeping changes have the impact that we fear, you wont have it for very long.
Someone's bitter lol. Changes looking pretty good so far tbh bro. Should have increased slightly more though.
I hope you like dead games. Because you're fast on you're way to making one.
I dont work for ZOS or come up woth their design changes lmao. But keep telling yourself that. PS you should L2P. The block change isn't that bad. You been on the PTS yet?
You're continued pressure for them to nerf things based on you're prefrence is a key part of why the game is in the state it is. (Soft caps, anyone?) So no, I'll still give you some responsibility for it.
As for that, you're just gonna make more assumptions about me, call me bad, insult me. So why should I answer you?
PS: I dont run a blocktank, and never have. So you're assumptions are moot, at that point. It's just how the game is designed. And even if I dont run a setup like that, it dont take a genius to see the myriad of PVE fights that require constant blocking.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on February 3, 2018 1:51AM3 -
Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.
"Yes, but only to a certain extent".
Nooot really.
Because of the onus being put on blocking in high end content with increased difficulty usually coming from extended healthbars, and one hit KO moves, it's not gonna be 'to a certain extent'. It's gonna be, the next patch that puts more onus on health or stam to the point where we need to press ourselves harder will break the roll, and people will leave.
So I hope you're grand dream of PVP is worth the people that leave, because of these kinds of sweeping changes have the impact that we fear, you wont have it for very long.
Someone's bitter lol. Changes looking pretty good so far tbh bro. Should have increased slightly more though.
I hope you like dead games. Because you're fast on you're way to making one.
I dont work for ZOS or come up woth their design changes lmao. But keep telling yourself that. PS you should L2P. The block change isn't that bad. You been on the PTS yet?
You're continued pressure for them to nerf things based on you're prefrence is a key part of why the game is in the state it is. (Soft caps, anyone?) So no, I'll still give you some responsibility for it.
As for that, you're just gonna make more assumptions about me, call me bad, insult me. So why should I answer you?
PS: I dont run a blocktank, and never have. So you're assumptions are moot, at that point. It's just how the game is designed. And even if I dont run a setup like that, it dont take a genius to see the myriad of PVE fights that require constant blocking.
"It don't take a genius" ... I never thought of it like that! They should revert the changes and make block free to use.0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.
"Yes, but only to a certain extent".
Nooot really.
Because of the onus being put on blocking in high end content with increased difficulty usually coming from extended healthbars, and one hit KO moves, it's not gonna be 'to a certain extent'. It's gonna be, the next patch that puts more onus on health or stam to the point where we need to press ourselves harder will break the roll, and people will leave.
So I hope you're grand dream of PVP is worth the people that leave, because of these kinds of sweeping changes have the impact that we fear, you wont have it for very long.
Someone's bitter lol. Changes looking pretty good so far tbh bro. Should have increased slightly more though.
I hope you like dead games. Because you're fast on you're way to making one.
I dont work for ZOS or come up woth their design changes lmao. But keep telling yourself that. PS you should L2P. The block change isn't that bad. You been on the PTS yet?
You're continued pressure for them to nerf things based on you're prefrence is a key part of why the game is in the state it is. (Soft caps, anyone?) So no, I'll still give you some responsibility for it.
As for that, you're just gonna make more assumptions about me, call me bad, insult me. So why should I answer you?
PS: I dont run a blocktank, and never have. So you're assumptions are moot, at that point. It's just how the game is designed. And even if I dont run a setup like that, it dont take a genius to see the myriad of PVE fights that require constant blocking.
"It don't take a genius" ... I never thought of it like that! They should revert the changes and make block free to use.
Well if you'd want my solution, I'd give Block it's own meter when used with ice staffs, and shield and sword. Use of heavy attacks and some abilities restore it, institute a cost increase in PVP for the meter.
I cite Neverwinter Online as a example of the the way they want tanking done correctly and I stand by it. Maybe making it it's own meter would be better to use and actually force the reactive blocking they seem to want from us.
Plus, if the cost is increased for this seperate meter in PVP, they likely couldn't turtle overmuch, depending on the ability return. Gives an element of management to tanks again, gets rid of the problem in PVP. Sounds like a solution to me.
You could likely extend it to a few other weapon mechanics. Like say, twohanded adding a portion of it's last burst damage to dots, or duel wield doing more damage the more dots are on a target.
Of course, it'd likely never happen. But it'd be a good solution. Give a little more depth to the game at large. Maybe even give twohander some use in PVE, and not let it be a freaking laughing stock anymore.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on February 3, 2018 3:43AM0 -
Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.
"Yes, but only to a certain extent".
Nooot really.
Because of the onus being put on blocking in high end content with increased difficulty usually coming from extended healthbars, and one hit KO moves, it's not gonna be 'to a certain extent'. It's gonna be, the next patch that puts more onus on health or stam to the point where we need to press ourselves harder will break the roll, and people will leave.
So I hope you're grand dream of PVP is worth the people that leave, because of these kinds of sweeping changes have the impact that we fear, you wont have it for very long.
Someone's bitter lol. Changes looking pretty good so far tbh bro. Should have increased slightly more though.
I hope you like dead games. Because you're fast on you're way to making one.
I dont work for ZOS or come up woth their design changes lmao. But keep telling yourself that. PS you should L2P. The block change isn't that bad. You been on the PTS yet?
You're continued pressure for them to nerf things based on you're prefrence is a key part of why the game is in the state it is. (Soft caps, anyone?) So no, I'll still give you some responsibility for it.
As for that, you're just gonna make more assumptions about me, call me bad, insult me. So why should I answer you?
PS: I dont run a blocktank, and never have. So you're assumptions are moot, at that point. It's just how the game is designed. And even if I dont run a setup like that, it dont take a genius to see the myriad of PVE fights that require constant blocking.
"It don't take a genius" ... I never thought of it like that! They should revert the changes and make block free to use.
Well if you'd want my solution, I'd give Block it's own meter when used with ice staffs, and shield and sword. Use of heavy attacks and some abilities restore it, institute a cost increase in PVP for the meter.
I cite Neverwinter Online as a example of the the way they want tanking done correctly and I stand by it. Maybe making it it's own meter would be better to use and actually force the reactive blocking they seem to want from us.
Plus, if the cost is increased for this seperate meter in PVP, they likely couldn't turtle overmuch, depending on the ability return. Gives an element of management to tanks again, gets rid of the problem in PVP. Sounds like a solution to me.
You could likely extend it to a few other weapon mechanics. Like say, twohanded adding a portion of it's last burst damage to dots, or duel wield doing more damage the more dots are on a target.
Of course, it'd likely never happen. But it'd be a good solution. Give a little more depth to the game at large. Maybe even give twohander some use in PVP, and not let it be a freaking laughing stock anymore.
Dude wtf? 2hander is so good in pvp... youre kidding right???? @Waffennacht @Lexxypwns read this lolEdited by Hutch679 on February 3, 2018 2:31AM1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.
"Yes, but only to a certain extent".
Nooot really.
Because of the onus being put on blocking in high end content with increased difficulty usually coming from extended healthbars, and one hit KO moves, it's not gonna be 'to a certain extent'. It's gonna be, the next patch that puts more onus on health or stam to the point where we need to press ourselves harder will break the roll, and people will leave.
So I hope you're grand dream of PVP is worth the people that leave, because of these kinds of sweeping changes have the impact that we fear, you wont have it for very long.
Someone's bitter lol. Changes looking pretty good so far tbh bro. Should have increased slightly more though.
I hope you like dead games. Because you're fast on you're way to making one.
I dont work for ZOS or come up woth their design changes lmao. But keep telling yourself that. PS you should L2P. The block change isn't that bad. You been on the PTS yet?
You're continued pressure for them to nerf things based on you're prefrence is a key part of why the game is in the state it is. (Soft caps, anyone?) So no, I'll still give you some responsibility for it.
As for that, you're just gonna make more assumptions about me, call me bad, insult me. So why should I answer you?
PS: I dont run a blocktank, and never have. So you're assumptions are moot, at that point. It's just how the game is designed. And even if I dont run a setup like that, it dont take a genius to see the myriad of PVE fights that require constant blocking.
"It don't take a genius" ... I never thought of it like that! They should revert the changes and make block free to use.
Well if you'd want my solution, I'd give Block it's own meter when used with ice staffs, and shield and sword. Use of heavy attacks and some abilities restore it, institute a cost increase in PVP for the meter.
I cite Neverwinter Online as a example of the the way they want tanking done correctly and I stand by it. Maybe making it it's own meter would be better to use and actually force the reactive blocking they seem to want from us.
Plus, if the cost is increased for this seperate meter in PVP, they likely couldn't turtle overmuch, depending on the ability return. Gives an element of management to tanks again, gets rid of the problem in PVP. Sounds like a solution to me.
You could likely extend it to a few other weapon mechanics. Like say, twohanded adding a portion of it's last burst damage to dots, or duel wield doing more damage the more dots are on a target.
Of course, it'd likely never happen. But it'd be a good solution. Give a little more depth to the game at large. Maybe even give twohander some use in PVP, and not let it be a freaking laughing stock anymore.
Dude wtf? 2hander is so good in pvp... youre kidding right???? @Waffennacht @Lexxypwns read this lol
I cringe when I read Neverwinter. The idea would require a complete over haul of the whole system. Think about how removing the cost of block from Stam? It maybe it's own meter (which is like a big ole idea in of itself) but this means dodge roll and Sprint will no longer hinder blocking in anyway.
Yeah 2h is good - I can't be more clear than that lol
Edit: I r good at making wordsEdited by Waffennacht on February 3, 2018 2:46AM2 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.
"Yes, but only to a certain extent".
Nooot really.
Because of the onus being put on blocking in high end content with increased difficulty usually coming from extended healthbars, and one hit KO moves, it's not gonna be 'to a certain extent'. It's gonna be, the next patch that puts more onus on health or stam to the point where we need to press ourselves harder will break the roll, and people will leave.
So I hope you're grand dream of PVP is worth the people that leave, because of these kinds of sweeping changes have the impact that we fear, you wont have it for very long.
Someone's bitter lol. Changes looking pretty good so far tbh bro. Should have increased slightly more though.
I hope you like dead games. Because you're fast on you're way to making one.
I dont work for ZOS or come up woth their design changes lmao. But keep telling yourself that. PS you should L2P. The block change isn't that bad. You been on the PTS yet?
You're continued pressure for them to nerf things based on you're prefrence is a key part of why the game is in the state it is. (Soft caps, anyone?) So no, I'll still give you some responsibility for it.
As for that, you're just gonna make more assumptions about me, call me bad, insult me. So why should I answer you?
PS: I dont run a blocktank, and never have. So you're assumptions are moot, at that point. It's just how the game is designed. And even if I dont run a setup like that, it dont take a genius to see the myriad of PVE fights that require constant blocking.
"It don't take a genius" ... I never thought of it like that! They should revert the changes and make block free to use.
Well if you'd want my solution, I'd give Block it's own meter when used with ice staffs, and shield and sword. Use of heavy attacks and some abilities restore it, institute a cost increase in PVP for the meter.
I cite Neverwinter Online as a example of the the way they want tanking done correctly and I stand by it. Maybe making it it's own meter would be better to use and actually force the reactive blocking they seem to want from us.
Plus, if the cost is increased for this seperate meter in PVP, they likely couldn't turtle overmuch, depending on the ability return. Gives an element of management to tanks again, gets rid of the problem in PVP. Sounds like a solution to me.
You could likely extend it to a few other weapon mechanics. Like say, twohanded adding a portion of it's last burst damage to dots, or duel wield doing more damage the more dots are on a target.
Of course, it'd likely never happen. But it'd be a good solution. Give a little more depth to the game at large. Maybe even give twohander some use in PVP, and not let it be a freaking laughing stock anymore.
Dude wtf? 2hander is so good in pvp... youre kidding right???? @Waffennacht @Lexxypwns read this lol
I cringe when I read Neverwinter. The idea would require a complete over haul of the whole system. Think about how removing the cost of block from Stam? It maybe it's own meter (which is like a big ole idea in of itself) but this means dodge roll and Sprint will no longer hinder blocking in anyway.
Yeah 2h is good - I can't be more clear than that lol
Edit: I r good at making words
2h is great2 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭*Has a habit of mixing up PVP and PVE out of reflex muscle memory*
So apply that statement to PVE, instead of PVP. Twohander is great in PVP, terrible in PVE, because PVP values burst damage more.
Also, when you make a simple mistake in phrasing I dont go crazy and call people to laugh at -you-, do I? @Hutch679 you've even done it in this thread! this is what I'm talking about. You're not here to discuss a solution, given why you just sat there and looked for something to shame over. So why are you here?Edited by Doctordarkspawn on February 3, 2018 3:43AM1 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.
P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.
This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.
This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.
Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.
Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.
It isn't.
Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.
You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.
@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.
Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.
My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.
And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.
If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.
As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.
Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)
I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.
But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.
PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.
PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.
No longer unhappy with the state of pvp now that block cost is being reduced. This was one of the major changes needed. PVE tanks can still tank any content with the upcoming changes. Glad the change is happening.
...Firstly, I think you mean increased. At least I hope you do. Otherwise I have a feeling we're both very confused.
Secondly, it's not geting increaed in PVP for anyone who wasn't using full freakin' glyphs, most PVP players dont.
So how's this fixing the PVP issue?
Yes, increased is what I meant. I think I was trying to say the ability to be able to permablock is being "reduced" but I worded it poorly.
It definitely effects pvp! If you play console BGs then you absolutely know people were running full block, unkillable builds. I was running 7th legion, bloodspawn, agility on my stam dk with 5 sturdy pieces and 2 block cost reduction pieces and could literally block infinitely with no sustain issues what so ever... that's BROKEN. No one should be able to do that... and that's not even full block cost!! So you can't say it isn't fixing a pvp issue because I assure you it 100% is fixing it. Will it hurt PVE? Yes, but only to a certain extent. Good tanks will still be able to clear the hardest content, mediocre tanks will not struggle but will have to work harder.
"Yes, but only to a certain extent".
Nooot really.
Because of the onus being put on blocking in high end content with increased difficulty usually coming from extended healthbars, and one hit KO moves, it's not gonna be 'to a certain extent'. It's gonna be, the next patch that puts more onus on health or stam to the point where we need to press ourselves harder will break the roll, and people will leave.
So I hope you're grand dream of PVP is worth the people that leave, because of these kinds of sweeping changes have the impact that we fear, you wont have it for very long.
Someone's bitter lol. Changes looking pretty good so far tbh bro. Should have increased slightly more though.
I hope you like dead games. Because you're fast on you're way to making one.
I dont work for ZOS or come up woth their design changes lmao. But keep telling yourself that. PS you should L2P. The block change isn't that bad. You been on the PTS yet?
You're continued pressure for them to nerf things based on you're prefrence is a key part of why the game is in the state it is. (Soft caps, anyone?) So no, I'll still give you some responsibility for it.
As for that, you're just gonna make more assumptions about me, call me bad, insult me. So why should I answer you?
PS: I dont run a blocktank, and never have. So you're assumptions are moot, at that point. It's just how the game is designed. And even if I dont run a setup like that, it dont take a genius to see the myriad of PVE fights that require constant blocking.
"It don't take a genius" ... I never thought of it like that! They should revert the changes and make block free to use.
Well if you'd want my solution, I'd give Block it's own meter when used with ice staffs, and shield and sword. Use of heavy attacks and some abilities restore it, institute a cost increase in PVP for the meter.
I cite Neverwinter Online as a example of the the way they want tanking done correctly and I stand by it. Maybe making it it's own meter would be better to use and actually force the reactive blocking they seem to want from us.
Plus, if the cost is increased for this seperate meter in PVP, they likely couldn't turtle overmuch, depending on the ability return. Gives an element of management to tanks again, gets rid of the problem in PVP. Sounds like a solution to me.
You could likely extend it to a few other weapon mechanics. Like say, twohanded adding a portion of it's last burst damage to dots, or duel wield doing more damage the more dots are on a target.
Of course, it'd likely never happen. But it'd be a good solution. Give a little more depth to the game at large. Maybe even give twohander some use in PVP, and not let it be a freaking laughing stock anymore.
Dude wtf? 2hander is so good in pvp... youre kidding right???? @Waffennacht @Lexxypwns read this lol
I cringe when I read Neverwinter. The idea would require a complete over haul of the whole system. Think about how removing the cost of block from Stam? It maybe it's own meter (which is like a big ole idea in of itself) but this means dodge roll and Sprint will no longer hinder blocking in anyway.
Yeah 2h is good - I can't be more clear than that lol
Edit: I r good at making words
The idea would require a overhaul of the system. But quite frankly, the system needs overhauled anyway. The way Zenimax -does- do things, needs overhauled anyway. And if it does not, I'd love to hear the explination for that.
This is a game where poisons, a idea universally reviled, went through anyway, and I think we can both agree -that- was a bad idea.
And cringe at Neverwinter all you like. It is the exact sample principle and gameplay loop for tanks that ESO is trying to push, but done better. Sorry, but it's true. Block, and recharge. Block, and recharge. It's the PVE tanking loop Zenimax is -attempting- to emulate. At the very least, if we give block it's own meter, we could potentially solve the permablocking problem and make 'tactical blocking' a reality with potentially less effort, then if we tried to juryrig the existing mechanics. It would fix two problems at once, and quite frankly it's been a long time coming anyway.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on February 3, 2018 3:38AM0 -
AbysmalGhul✭✭✭✭✭
✭So what I'm gathering from this thread is that
1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies
So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs
BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs
3