Solohope wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Nade_nXs wrote: »

In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.

P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.

This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.

This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.

Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.

And how exactly does someone not qualified to express their opinion?

Because the person expressing it didn't consider, and wasn't interested in, the full effect of the change. It's like being excluded from a discussion about TV where we talk about how it's shot, filmed, broadcasted, and someone obnoxiously keeps asking 'but what about the sports?' It's disrespectfull to everyone else trying to have the rest of the discussion.

good tanks dont permablock in pve anyways, they can throw heavy attacks between boss attacks while being in 5 heavy armor to get bunch of stam back, balance -> igneous shield for stam return and more. there are so many ways to manage ressources on a tank.

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Nade_nXs wrote: »

In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.

P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.

This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.

This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.

Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.

Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.

It isn't.

Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.

You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.

@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.

code65536 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There's an above poster who points out bloodroot forge. I'll do one better and point out Mazzatun, and Velidreth from COS. We need permablock, or we need a great number of damage nerfs to the bosses in question.

Pick one. You cant have both.

Who the hell is permablocking in dungeons? First time i tanked velidreth i went with a magicka templar tankheal with 15k stamina and not a single block cost reduction glyph.

Is that vet? Because I can tank normal Velidreth as a DPS with back-bar taunt. But vet with HM is... more hairy.

Yes vet. I was basically pugging non DLC pledges and it was one of those rare cases when you get into a good group so i said what the hell. Didnt say the build is good. I was heavy attacking like nuts. I just simply stated that permablocking is not necessary.

rustic_potato wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There's an above poster who points out bloodroot forge. I'll do one better and point out Mazzatun, and Velidreth from COS. We need permablock, or we need a great number of damage nerfs to the bosses in question.

Pick one. You cant have both.

Ok I'm gonna laugh here. If you are permablocking in dungeons you are doing something really wrong. Other than Axes i don't see a need to permablock trials either. You are gimping your group a lot by not giving torug's crusher if you are going for a full tank build. If you are not going for full tankiness and competent enough to survive without it you should be doing DPS using a bow back or 2h back bar.

There are many ways you could permablock even after the nerf but most of them are just lazy builds gimping the group. Tanking is a hard role to do properly. Permablock tanks are the most annoying and incompetent ones out there.

Then you're either not playing vet dungeons, or you're completely omiting multiple boss fights.

Try not blocking HM Domihaus (I think that's the boss of falkreath)) for 80% of the time and see what happens. Or Mazatun. Or Mighty Chudan. Or about half a dozen other boss fights. And even then, the problem isn't the fact we want to permablock, it's the fact we're having enough trouble keeping our stamina, to the point where if it goes on for much longer, team support will become a pipe dream because we wont have the resources to make that a reality.

All it's gonna take is a few more reductions in our sustain before we'll have to build just to sustain block for around 60% uptime and nothing else. Look at the bigger picture, I beg of you.

Tannus15 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Reduce healing even more along with block cost in pvp. It would lessen player outrage.

Then again tanks using dps sets...like alkoash.

@Tasear Why is Alkosh considered a DPS set and not a debuff set, tanks receive the most synergies. I don't understand why you would call it a DPS set not to mention even the weapons drop with a crusher enchantment on them. Alkosh's main idea behind it is to debuff an enemy and not to use it for the damage side.

LOL!

It's a DPS set. All the 2-4p bonuses are DPS bonuses. Half of the 5p bonus is a DPS bonus.

It's a DPS set that makes the most sense on a tank despite ZOS's intent that it be used on a DPS. It should be used on tanks, and tanks should use it. But to claim that ZOS intended that it be used on tanks is ridiculous.

What I don't get is why there are people in this thread and others who think that this block cost change will somehow kill Alkosh or even affect it in a negative way. The only set that can (marginally) reduce block cost is Alteration Mastery, which is a light armor set that is definitely not intended for tanking, so it's not like ditching Alkosh will somehow make the block cost changes more palatable.

This is also what I was pointing at, though I guess in a round about way.
There ARE NO sets which realistically help tanks, and certainly nothing which assists blocking in any meaningful way. Due to this tanks cannot address these changes by using different gear or by changing the 'meta'.
Tanks may as well continue to run Alkosh, because there is no, better option.
There is no tanking set that we've been ignoring because we don't need it with the current block cost.

We're all running at resist cap.
We're all using block cost reduction jewellery.
We're all using between 5 to 8 sturdy. (8 myself)
We've all got 24% in CP block cost reduction.

This is a flat nerf and there is nothing I can do about it. If there was a set I could switch to that brought the block cost back down to current live I would run it. If stacking health or stam or mag somehow affected this, I would build around that. If there was literally anything further I could do, I would jump on it.
In fact, I already would have because I'm a main tank and I'm doing everything I can to be the best tank I can.

The only thing left we can do as tanks by slotting dedicated "tanking" sets is increase our resists well above cap, which has ZERO benefit. Sure, I could use Pariah or Brass Fortress, but how does that help? It doesn't. I could use Duneripper for extra resists while blocking, but to what end? I could use automated defence for a pointless buff which reduces incoming damage by a minuscule amount for a tiny duration after I use an ultimate. What? Eternal Yokeda? it has a 10 minute cool down. If you die once, you'll die again. Building around dying is planning to fail. Having a 5pc set which is useless while you're actually tanking is stupid. Ironblood? A self snaring set is also a terrible idea and will get yourself and your group wiped on the most simple mechanics which require you to actually move.

@Tannus15 Maelstorm 1h+shield with Shield Discipline ultimate. You use ulti stop holding block because ulti is blocking for You and You're doing 3x Heroic Slash+Heavy attack. Heroic slash is free to cast during 7 seconds ultimate duration and 3x heavy attacks with maesltorm 1h+shield plus s&b ulti on top of that will restore Your resources almost to full. On top of that You can add new set that is increasing amount of resources gained from heavy attacks. And yes I know You'll have to stop using horn but seriously who cares. With current power creep it can be even good for the game if tanks will stop to support group DPS. You could even try to run Moondancer now when synergies will be easier to use and keep magicka regen proc from it on high uptime which would restore You stamina through Helping Hands.

There is much more ideas that can allow tanks to sustain very well after block cost changes all You have to do is just sit and think for a while instead of QQing. There is always way to adapt.

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Nade_nXs wrote: »

In Cyrodill heals and shields are reduced by a certain percentage why can't they make the same thing for block cost, why PvE players are getting punished because people in PvP are running Tank with High block reduction.

P.S Its gonna be really hard for newer tank to control their Stamina.

This change is necessary. Glad it's finally getting reduced to remove permablock.

This change is not necessary for anything outside of PVP.

Your subjective view has no bearing on facts or logical reason. Your favoratism for PVP makes you even less qualified to speak on this.

Your subjective view of this for PVE has no bearing on facts relating to pvp. Your favoritism for PVE makes you even less qualified to speak about my comments strictly made for PVP. This change is necessary FOR PVP.

It isn't.

Because most of the tankiness for PVP comes from other means of mitigating damage and there's plenty of ways to do that. Damage shields, healing. In fact most tanks in PVP use some form of heal or damage based on enemy preportions to do they're job effectively. Permablock isn't going to do crap to PVP because they have other options.

You'd need to nerf skills like inhale, and blazing shield to make tanks truely killable in PVP. What is block cost going to accomplish? In order to kill the tanks you hate so much you'll have to mangle the game to do it, making barely anything else functional. That's why you people have to be stopped before you kill the game. Because I doubt you care of the consequences of you're actions.

@Hutch679 that arguement dont work when I have actual arguements. When I give my reasoning. The entire point of the statement was the man was uneducated on the issue only seeing one side of it and not caring about the rest. Perhaps, you should consider why I say something instead of tossing it back in my face.

Maybe you should play pvp with a stam dk running 3 block cost reduction glyphs all sturdy, 5 fury, 5 seventh legion, 2 bloodspawn and see how many people it takes to attempt to bring your health lower than 75%. Yeah You're right though, block cost shouldnt get a nerf. Gg.

My actions? Lmao I don't work for ZOS. You're a pve junky with a grudge against pvp players. Some things are too strong in a game mode that involves killing animate objects that don't just stand there and do the same thing every 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong, some aspects of pve are difficult. But the change to block cost isn't going to make a single pve event hard mode vet trial or anything impossible to beat. 2 sides to the game, pve and pvp. If you played pvp you would know tankyass block builds are exploiting a flaw in the game code. I'm not biased and don't think I haven't done my fair share of vet hm trials. Your move.

And you're as shortsighted as the last man dismissed. And I'll say it to you. You are unfit to be consulted on these matters, if you're not willing to consider both PVE and PVP, and quite frankly, I've given enough consideration to you're side of the fence.

If fixing you're problems means making the rest of us effectively second class citizens, that's not an option.

As for PVP, quite frankly, I've said it once, I'll say it again. PVP isn't ever going to get to the state you want it to be. You remove permablock, they'll find another way. You remove that way, they'll shift to massive offense. You nerf that...suddenly the game no longer functions, and you've effectively killed the game with you're incessant pleading for ZOS to solve you're problems for you. That is the only thing lisening to the PVP audience can achieve anymore, and I refuse to pretend otherwise. It is a domino effect, there will allways be a dominant strategy in PVP and if you nerf it enough, eventually you will break the game on such a fundemental level, that it wont function for anyone.

Not to mention that once PVE starts to break down, the 'casuals' that people look down on so much leave, cause a bleed in profits that eventually ends with the game being shut down. And there's massive historical evidence for that, in the history of MMO's. Shadowbane, anyone? (I originally listed Warhammer Online as a example of this, I was mistaken.)

I dont think you're concious of it, nor do I think you'll ever accept the idea, due to the human mind's refusal in most cases to admit wrongdoing, even to itself. So it's best I just dont respond further. I also dont think you are -malicious-. You just cant see past what you want out of the game. And that single act, on a massive scale, is what tends to mean the death of MMO's.

But again, I think it best I just leave it here. Agree to disagree, and all that.

PS: If you're unhappy with the state of PVP, Might I suggest you put you're time into a game specifically created with the competative audience as it's only audience, like For Honor, or Overwatch? It seems that many of the issues you seem to have with balance could be solved by a game like those, with no balance to fight over. I myself keep my PVP dealings to games like those, because of how MMO PVP tends to operate, continuously geting screwed by, or screwing, general balance. It might be an option for you.

PSS: You're absolutely biased, considering you think of PVE tanking as permablocking and those who apparently play it as seriously as you do PVP, as 'junkies'. And that isn't a personal attack, that's a assessment you can make when you look at just how you reguard the seperate activities.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Try not blocking HM Domihaus (I think that's the boss of falkreath)) for 80% of the time and see what happens. Or Mazatun. Or Mighty Chudan. Or about half a dozen other boss fights. And even then, the problem isn't the fact we want to permablock, it's the fact we're having enough trouble keeping our stamina, to the point where if it goes on for much longer, team support will become a pipe dream because we wont have the resources to make that a reality.

All it's gonna take is a few more reductions in our sustain before we'll have to build just to sustain block for around 60% uptime and nothing else. Look at the bigger picture, I beg of you.

I have a parse of me doing 14k DPS during the entirety of the Domihaus fight, on my S&B/Bow Templar tank.

The only time where I feel the need to block, much less permablock, is usually during group finder runs when I have 2/3 sets of atros running out and about outright obscuring vision of Domi and the stone atros charge.

If you have to permablock vs. Domihaus, whose ONLY THREATENING ATTACK is literally a 3 second hadoken charge, then bro you just have bigger issues than block cost.

Firstly...bow? Really? Why would you need a bow? Staff I get, but please explain the bow to me.

Second, great. Good for you. Not even remotely the point of that post, but it's yet more evidence if other parts of the game were changed, we could likely make other means of mitigation in PVE viable and thus eliminate half the issue. People wouldn't be nearly as opposed to it if you could just roll up a healtank, and mitigate most of the damage through that, than if not.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Try not blocking HM Domihaus (I think that's the boss of falkreath)) for 80% of the time and see what happens. Or Mazatun. Or Mighty Chudan. Or about half a dozen other boss fights. And even then, the problem isn't the fact we want to permablock, it's the fact we're having enough trouble keeping our stamina, to the point where if it goes on for much longer, team support will become a pipe dream because we wont have the resources to make that a reality.

All it's gonna take is a few more reductions in our sustain before we'll have to build just to sustain block for around 60% uptime and nothing else. Look at the bigger picture, I beg of you.

I have a parse of me doing 14k DPS during the entirety of the Domihaus fight, on my S&B/Bow Templar tank.

The only time where I feel the need to block, much less permablock, is usually during group finder runs when I have 2/3 sets of atros running out and about outright obscuring vision of Domi and the stone atros charge.

If you have to permablock vs. Domihaus, whose ONLY THREATENING ATTACK is literally a 3 second hadoken charge, then bro you just have bigger issues than block cost.

Firstly...bow? Really? Why would you need a bow? Staff I get, but please explain the bow to me.

Second, great. Good for you. Not even remotely the point of that post, but it's yet more evidence if other parts of the game were changed, we could likely make other means of mitigation in PVE viable and thus eliminate half the issue. People wouldn't be nearly as opposed to it if you could just roll up a healtank, and mitigate most of the damage through that, than if not.

Why bow? Simple. I'm really just a 3rd DPS with 30khp that happens to run a taunt as my spammable. My rotation is forgiving enough to be interrupted by periods of blocking without having huge downtimes on PI/Hail/Caltrops and the stam drain from those skills along with pierce armor spam isn't enough to warrant me doing anything else.

Then what's the point of your post? You cite all these fights that are like "PERMABLOCK OR DIE" and a majority of them can be tanked by a DPS lol. I can tell you the point of my post. The point of my post is that most of the dungeons and bosses in 4 man content are so stress free that I see absolutely no need to be anything but a 30khp S&B dpser. The block cost change will be of no consequence to a tank.

My point is the only thing really keeping permablock even a part of this game anymore are the few fights that make it absolutely necessary, which the designers staunchly refuse to change. AA axes. Rakkat. So on and so fourth. (Domihaus was admittedly a bad example though, though you seem to have fixated on it.)

I can tell you with no ammount of uncertainty, that if the fights that permablocking is required for were changed, and other forms of mitigation became more usefull in PVE (AKA, self heals, shields) I dont think any large group would be screeching for Permablock to remain a thing. The point is, tanks dont want to permablock, and never have. It's just required for a few pieces of content, and due to the 'META OR DIE' attitude this games endgame community tends to adopt, that remains the meta, and anyone else will have a hard time breaking into the endgame community.

TLDR: If we went ahed and gave tanks different mitigation (Like, say, upping the freaking armor cap, or giving a 'mastery' skill line that gave people mitigation through self healing, ect) this change wouldn't be opposed nearly as vehemently. People tollerate the current state, but would gladly exchange it for something less block centric if it was viable at all levels.

Edit: Show me the DPS build with enough mitigation and health to tank Mazatun hardmode and Mighty Chudan vet when things get hairy. And for me to accept that, it needs to be able to wielded by an idiot, and with a mediocre healer.