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Does any StamDk here feel the heroic slash nerf?

  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    Sixty5 wrote: »
    C'mon man, you have to admit that 12 seconds on a heavy snare is excessive.

    If you aren't running Shuffle or Forward Momentum it utterly shuts down any Medium build.


    Why is it that DK players are the saltiest kids on the forums. I don't remember Templar mains crying this hard.

    It seems you don’t play Stam Dk. This post is targeted really for other DK’s, as obviously someone that does not play the class will not share the same opinion
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    KingLogix wrote: »
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    C'mon man, you have to admit that 12 seconds on a heavy snare is excessive.

    If you aren't running Shuffle or Forward Momentum it utterly shuts down any Medium build.


    Why is it that DK players are the saltiest kids on the forums. I don't remember Templar mains crying this hard.

    It seems you don’t play Stam Dk. This post is targeted really for other DK’s, as obviously someone that does not play the class will not share the same opinion

    Its not a HUGE nerf.

    But Its kind of like that werewolf nerf we see on gapcloser changes.

    Why indirectly nerf something that clearly underperforms, in the name of ''overall balance'', is beyond me.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 31, 2018 7:28AM
  • Sixty5
    Sixty5
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    KingLogix wrote: »
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    C'mon man, you have to admit that 12 seconds on a heavy snare is excessive.

    If you aren't running Shuffle or Forward Momentum it utterly shuts down any Medium build.


    Why is it that DK players are the saltiest kids on the forums. I don't remember Templar mains crying this hard.

    It seems you don’t play Stam Dk. This post is targeted really for other DK’s, as obviously someone that does not play the class will not share the same opinion

    The skill is a 12 second snare for 60% of your movespeed, along with Minor Heroism and Minor maim.

    You still have the ability to combo the skill into a Dizzying Swing, and you still get the damage reduction and ultimate generation out of it. Hell even the damage and costs are the same.

    The only change is that now the incredibly obnoxious snare only lasts 4 seconds instead of 12.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Dark Deal and Surge aren't "true" stamina morphs. Hurricane is the only one. Its the only ability that scales with max stamina and weapon damage that Stam Sorcs have. Dark Deal can and is used by certain Mag Sorcs, Crit Surge is very widely used by Mag Sorcs in PvE (especially in vMA) since it gives a bigger heal and you get Major Sorcery from pots anyway. You don't see any Mag Sorcs using Hurricane however.

    I could say that Flames of Oblivion, Igneous Shield and Green Dragon Blood are also Stam DK abilities, because they benefit Stam DKs just as much as they benefit Mag DKs. You don't see Mag DKs using Venomous Claw or Noxious Breath however.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #MidnightSlayers
    #MoreDPSthanYou #ImmortalRedeemerOnStamblade
    #Stamblade
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Building a DW/DW Stam DK I immediately noticed one big issue with stam DK:

    td54ccxe6eva.png


    Even the last few ticks of Venomous Claw are outperformed by Blood Craze.

    Granted, this is with Master DW, but still... one would expect atleast the last few ticks to deal more damage.


    I think they should give the skill some additional effect that benefits PvP DKs, it feels very weak at the moment. I mean, why would I ever slot Venomous Claw and deal less damage (that doesn't ignore mitigation like bleeds) compared to Blood Craze. And that's omitting the Blood Craze healing entirely (or Rending Slashes snare which is 50% compared to 30% Warmth passive if you go with that morph).


    But yeah, those issues aside I think this patch is buffing sDK both directly & indirectly tbh.

    Buffs:
    • Steel Tornado undodgeable - this makes DW sooo much better. Cleave also undodgeable for those who want to try Master Brawler on sDK... (haven't tested yet).
    • Off Balance changes, ability to stun with Power Lash (or just medium weave). Frees up two skill slots: your CC (you can use Tactician+Shuffle/dodge roll->Power Lash for stun) & Vigor (because that Power Lash heals for more than Vigor even on stam builds).

    Remains to be seen how viable they'll be.

    1. Blood Craze is a bleed. Bleeds ignore the target's armor values. So if you don't have a lot of penetration to begin with, bleeds are VERY valuable. If you test Blood Craze vs Venom Claw while having 18.2K penetration on the dummy, the latter will outperform the former in a big way, unless you have the Master DW, in which case they would be about the same. If you had used say Noxious Breath to debuff the target, your Claw would deal a very noticeable amount more damage.

    Yes, of course with Noxious applied it's more damage, but still much less than Blood Craze:
    nvjax7yuv5wr.png

    ...and requires you to combine it with another skill (that's not guaranteed to land in PvP) to get real value out of it. And still (while dealing less damage) doesn't provide the secondary effect Blood Craze/Rending Slashes does, and also doesn't gain +20% dmg to low health enemies or +15% dmg to stunned enemies.

    For PvP, Venomous Claw just seems awful and could use some buffs (ones that don't affect PvE).
    Izaki wrote: »
    2. Steel Tornado has always been undodgeable, its an AoE. The change in the patch notes was directed at the base ability, which was also unblockable aparently. But Steel Tornado and the other morph always were undodgeable.

    It isn't undodgeable, there was even a thread about it: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/386362/steel-tornado-is-dodgeable




    I've even tested it myself. Brawler (another AoE) also was dodgeable before this latest PTS update.

    There are still dodgeable stamina AoEs: Power Extraction, Claws of Anguish/Life, Bombard/Acid Spray, Endless Hail/Arrow Barrage


    I stand corrected for the Steel Tornado thingy, I seriously didn't expect any AoEs to still be dodgeable..!

    (See kids this is how you get rekt on the forums xD)
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #MidnightSlayers
    #MoreDPSthanYou #ImmortalRedeemerOnStamblade
    #Stamblade
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
    ✭✭✭
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    C'mon man, you have to admit that 12 seconds on a heavy snare is excessive.

    If you aren't running Shuffle or Forward Momentum it utterly shuts down any Medium build.


    Why is it that DK players are the saltiest kids on the forums. I don't remember Templar mains crying this hard.

    It seems you don’t play Stam Dk. This post is targeted really for other DK’s, as obviously someone that does not play the class will not share the same opinion

    The skill is a 12 second snare for 60% of your movespeed, along with Minor Heroism and Minor maim.

    You still have the ability to combo the skill into a Dizzying Swing, and you still get the damage reduction and ultimate generation out of it. Hell even the damage and costs are the same.

    The only change is that now the incredibly obnoxious snare only lasts 4 seconds instead of 12.

    I understand the abilities uses, as well as Zosses intentions in nerfing it. The issue is greater then the nerf to heroic slash. The issue is that they put the Stam Dk(Stam Sorc on a smaller scale) in a position where they have to crutch/heavily rely on heroic slash to perform in pvp. It was used as the only dps ability, or the ability to help land a higher countered play dizzy swing. (If we miss dizzy, we don’t get subterranean/Suprise attack/jabs to fall back on afterwards).

    With that being said, the nerf to heroic unintentionally hurt the Stam Dk more then other classes(I’m not sure why other people want to argue that..). I understand why people believe it deserved a nerf. And respectively, looking at the abilty, it sure does offer a lot. However, with the 12 second snare it was not making the Stam Dk competitive to the stamden/stamblade. Nerfing the ability, is just widening the gap between us and the classes that were already ahead of us.


  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Izaki wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Dark Deal and Surge aren't "true" stamina morphs. Hurricane is the only one. Its the only ability that scales with max stamina and weapon damage that Stam Sorcs have. Dark Deal can and is used by certain Mag Sorcs, Crit Surge is very widely used by Mag Sorcs in PvE (especially in vMA) since it gives a bigger heal and you get Major Sorcery from pots anyway. You don't see any Mag Sorcs using Hurricane however.

    I could say that Flames of Oblivion, Igneous Shield and Green Dragon Blood are also Stam DK abilities, because they benefit Stam DKs just as much as they benefit Mag DKs. You don't see Mag DKs using Venomous Claw or Noxious Breath however.

    yet I would prefer to have dark deal,hurricane and surge over 2 crappy dots.

    MagDk doesn't have a reason to use venomous claws and noxious breath when they have the magicka version of those dots with much stronger utility.

    ''But if you think sorcs have much stronger kit, why don't you play a stamsorc?''

    I am playing one right now actually. So before you ask that, let me answer that question for you.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 30, 2018 11:43PM
  • SirDopey
    SirDopey
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    SirDopey wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    With all the commotion about DK’s in general in this last week, I was very sure some things were going to get rebalanced(possible in our favor XD). Out of all of the skills(Suprise attack, Incap, Subterranean assault, and jabs) they decide to nerf heroic slash. Can anyone link me a post where someone is actually complaining about the ability?

    Which class utilizes heroic slash the most? Definitely Stamina DK’s. It’s no argument. With that being said, it must have been another direct nerf.

    We literally have use that ability to line up an already high counter played ability(dizzy swing). If we miss the dizzy swing? Tough ***... we don’t have a poison whip, Suprise attack, subterranean, or jabs to fall to fall back on. (This is for you to Stam sorcs).

    I understand this nerf to the ability won’t completely break our class. My concerns is the direction our class is going. All of these direct/indirect nerfs are pretty small, but when you compile them all together on a list, it’s pretty fat. They don’t seem to understand the impacts they are having.

    I propose we get a poison inhale(it seems more possible then poison whip). They can keep all the changes, but they definitely need to provide us a little more offensive capability. We have the most counter play at the moment

    HOW is this a DK nerf as opposed to a S&B Nerf? This affects ALL classes using the skill. The DK fan club is starting to get reeeal annoying with the whole internalizing every change into a nerf directed at them. I'm sick of hearing it.

    Are you one of those guys who said wrath nerf isn't a stamDK nerf lol.
    Because I swear you are just as ridicilous as those guys.

    Obviously stamDK out of all classes relies on this the most.

    Simply saying something is Obvious doesn't make it so. The Nerf affects all classes equally, so thinking DK's are so special that every decision ZOS is making is revolving around them - it's not, its everything to do with the 7th legend HA cookie cutter builds in pvp.

    No the nerfs don't affect everyone equally.

    Shuffle nerf didn't affect stamdens as much as stamDks, because they have alternative burst heals.
    They can run forward momentum and be fine. Meanwhile green dragon blood is legit the worst healing ability in the game.
    It is soooo bad that wardens can outheal it with 2 light attacks from green lotus.

    and wrath removal didn't affect stamblades as much as stamDks because they don't rely on heavy armor for survival in the first place.
    (funny enough they are also stronger than sDKs in heavy armor too.)

    You can't say a nerf to a general ability is a general nerf because it can be used by everyone.
    A nerf to an ability mainly used by stamDks, means it is more of a nerf to stamDks.

    simple to understand really.

    Again, you're just cherry picking things to back up you're tired claims of DK's being the soul source of nerfs. Shuffle: Explain to me then how this nerf affected DKs more than Templars?

    What you are effectively doing is finding ONE class that won't feel the pain of a general nerf as bad as a DK and then jumping up and down saying look look, its another DK nerf ignoring the fact that there are still 3 other classes equally affected.

    It's tiring, pointless and only making DK's look silly.
    NA PC | AD
    xx Doc Holliday xx
  • SirDopey
    SirDopey
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    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    With all the commotion about DK’s in general in this last week, I was very sure some things were going to get rebalanced(possible in our favor XD). Out of all of the skills(Suprise attack, Incap, Subterranean assault, and jabs) they decide to nerf heroic slash. Can anyone link me a post where someone is actually complaining about the ability?

    Which class utilizes heroic slash the most? Definitely Stamina DK’s. It’s no argument. With that being said, it must have been another direct nerf.

    We literally have use that ability to line up an already high counter played ability(dizzy swing). If we miss the dizzy swing? Tough ***... we don’t have a poison whip, Suprise attack, subterranean, or jabs to fall to fall back on. (This is for you to Stam sorcs).

    I understand this nerf to the ability won’t completely break our class. My concerns is the direction our class is going. All of these direct/indirect nerfs are pretty small, but when you compile them all together on a list, it’s pretty fat. They don’t seem to understand the impacts they are having.

    I propose we get a poison inhale(it seems more possible then poison whip). They can keep all the changes, but they definitely need to provide us a little more offensive capability. We have the most counter play at the moment

    HOW is this a DK nerf as opposed to a S&B Nerf? This affects ALL classes using the skill. The DK fan club is starting to get reeeal annoying with the whole internalizing every change into a nerf directed at them. I'm sick of hearing it.

    The questions you should ask your self. Which class normally has 3-4 S&B abilities? Which class uses heroic slash the most?
    1) Is it NB?
    Is it DK?
    Is it stamden?
    Etc.

    2) does one get affected more then the other?

    3) are you implying that, NB and other classes that don’t even really use s&B abilities are affected just as much as the DK? Just because they “technically

    In PVP I run S&B on the 3 characters I play. Stam Sorc (both bars), Stam Warden (back bar) and Templar (back bar). I think the one thing EVERYONE can agree on at the moment is that S&B is the current meta for all stamina classes in PVP. So yeah, you are being pretty ridiculous claiming this only affects your class.

    In PVE DK's are still top dog for tanking, but I'm still seeing plenty of Wardens, Templars and even a few sorcs lately. So again, to claim this only affects your class is just ridiculous

    So you are implying that your warden, templar and Stam Sorc use heroic slash just as much in there rotation as a Stam Dk? (Pvp)
    I use heroic slash as much as your warden uses subterranean, and templar to jabs. Your Stam Sorc? I already spoke for them in the post if you bothered to even read all of it...

    My Templar and Warden use heroic slash constantly, if anything it's my most used ability because both builds rely heavily on ultimate generation so I try to have heroism up 100% of time - plus it's my source of Maim.... Really, when you consider everything that it gives it's a very strong skill so why wouldn't you be using it on any class???
    NA PC | AD
    xx Doc Holliday xx
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
    ✭✭✭
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    With all the commotion about DK’s in general in this last week, I was very sure some things were going to get rebalanced(possible in our favor XD). Out of all of the skills(Suprise attack, Incap, Subterranean assault, and jabs) they decide to nerf heroic slash. Can anyone link me a post where someone is actually complaining about the ability?

    Which class utilizes heroic slash the most? Definitely Stamina DK’s. It’s no argument. With that being said, it must have been another direct nerf.

    We literally have use that ability to line up an already high counter played ability(dizzy swing). If we miss the dizzy swing? Tough ***... we don’t have a poison whip, Suprise attack, subterranean, or jabs to fall to fall back on. (This is for you to Stam sorcs).

    I understand this nerf to the ability won’t completely break our class. My concerns is the direction our class is going. All of these direct/indirect nerfs are pretty small, but when you compile them all together on a list, it’s pretty fat. They don’t seem to understand the impacts they are having.

    I propose we get a poison inhale(it seems more possible then poison whip). They can keep all the changes, but they definitely need to provide us a little more offensive capability. We have the most counter play at the moment

    HOW is this a DK nerf as opposed to a S&B Nerf? This affects ALL classes using the skill. The DK fan club is starting to get reeeal annoying with the whole internalizing every change into a nerf directed at them. I'm sick of hearing it.

    The questions you should ask your self. Which class normally has 3-4 S&B abilities? Which class uses heroic slash the most?
    1) Is it NB?
    Is it DK?
    Is it stamden?
    Etc.

    2) does one get affected more then the other?

    3) are you implying that, NB and other classes that don’t even really use s&B abilities are affected just as much as the DK? Just because they “technically

    In PVP I run S&B on the 3 characters I play. Stam Sorc (both bars), Stam Warden (back bar) and Templar (back bar). I think the one thing EVERYONE can agree on at the moment is that S&B is the current meta for all stamina classes in PVP. So yeah, you are being pretty ridiculous claiming this only affects your class.

    In PVE DK's are still top dog for tanking, but I'm still seeing plenty of Wardens, Templars and even a few sorcs lately. So again, to claim this only affects your class is just ridiculous

    So you are implying that your warden, templar and Stam Sorc use heroic slash just as much in there rotation as a Stam Dk? (Pvp)
    I use heroic slash as much as your warden uses subterranean, and templar to jabs. Your Stam Sorc? I already spoke for them in the post if you bothered to even read all of it...

    My Templar and Warden use heroic slash constantly, if anything it's my most used ability because both builds rely heavily on ultimate generation so I try to have heroism up 100% of time - plus it's my source of Maim.... Really, when you consider everything that it gives it's a very strong skill so why wouldn't you be using it on any class???

    Wardens have major heroism from shimmering shield. Why are you spamming that ability?
  • SirDopey
    SirDopey
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    With all the commotion about DK’s in general in this last week, I was very sure some things were going to get rebalanced(possible in our favor XD). Out of all of the skills(Suprise attack, Incap, Subterranean assault, and jabs) they decide to nerf heroic slash. Can anyone link me a post where someone is actually complaining about the ability?

    Which class utilizes heroic slash the most? Definitely Stamina DK’s. It’s no argument. With that being said, it must have been another direct nerf.

    We literally have use that ability to line up an already high counter played ability(dizzy swing). If we miss the dizzy swing? Tough ***... we don’t have a poison whip, Suprise attack, subterranean, or jabs to fall to fall back on. (This is for you to Stam sorcs).

    I understand this nerf to the ability won’t completely break our class. My concerns is the direction our class is going. All of these direct/indirect nerfs are pretty small, but when you compile them all together on a list, it’s pretty fat. They don’t seem to understand the impacts they are having.

    I propose we get a poison inhale(it seems more possible then poison whip). They can keep all the changes, but they definitely need to provide us a little more offensive capability. We have the most counter play at the moment

    HOW is this a DK nerf as opposed to a S&B Nerf? This affects ALL classes using the skill. The DK fan club is starting to get reeeal annoying with the whole internalizing every change into a nerf directed at them. I'm sick of hearing it.

    The questions you should ask your self. Which class normally has 3-4 S&B abilities? Which class uses heroic slash the most?
    1) Is it NB?
    Is it DK?
    Is it stamden?
    Etc.

    2) does one get affected more then the other?

    3) are you implying that, NB and other classes that don’t even really use s&B abilities are affected just as much as the DK? Just because they “technically

    In PVP I run S&B on the 3 characters I play. Stam Sorc (both bars), Stam Warden (back bar) and Templar (back bar). I think the one thing EVERYONE can agree on at the moment is that S&B is the current meta for all stamina classes in PVP. So yeah, you are being pretty ridiculous claiming this only affects your class.

    In PVE DK's are still top dog for tanking, but I'm still seeing plenty of Wardens, Templars and even a few sorcs lately. So again, to claim this only affects your class is just ridiculous

    So you are implying that your warden, templar and Stam Sorc use heroic slash just as much in there rotation as a Stam Dk? (Pvp)
    I use heroic slash as much as your warden uses subterranean, and templar to jabs. Your Stam Sorc? I already spoke for them in the post if you bothered to even read all of it...

    My Templar and Warden use heroic slash constantly, if anything it's my most used ability because both builds rely heavily on ultimate generation so I try to have heroism up 100% of time - plus it's my source of Maim.... Really, when you consider everything that it gives it's a very strong skill so why wouldn't you be using it on any class???

    Wardens have major heroism from shimmering shield. Why are you spamming that ability?

    Because I don't use shimmering shield???
    NA PC | AD
    xx Doc Holliday xx
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
    ✭✭✭
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    With all the commotion about DK’s in general in this last week, I was very sure some things were going to get rebalanced(possible in our favor XD). Out of all of the skills(Suprise attack, Incap, Subterranean assault, and jabs) they decide to nerf heroic slash. Can anyone link me a post where someone is actually complaining about the ability?

    Which class utilizes heroic slash the most? Definitely Stamina DK’s. It’s no argument. With that being said, it must have been another direct nerf.

    We literally have use that ability to line up an already high counter played ability(dizzy swing). If we miss the dizzy swing? Tough ***... we don’t have a poison whip, Suprise attack, subterranean, or jabs to fall to fall back on. (This is for you to Stam sorcs).

    I understand this nerf to the ability won’t completely break our class. My concerns is the direction our class is going. All of these direct/indirect nerfs are pretty small, but when you compile them all together on a list, it’s pretty fat. They don’t seem to understand the impacts they are having.

    I propose we get a poison inhale(it seems more possible then poison whip). They can keep all the changes, but they definitely need to provide us a little more offensive capability. We have the most counter play at the moment

    HOW is this a DK nerf as opposed to a S&B Nerf? This affects ALL classes using the skill. The DK fan club is starting to get reeeal annoying with the whole internalizing every change into a nerf directed at them. I'm sick of hearing it.

    The questions you should ask your self. Which class normally has 3-4 S&B abilities? Which class uses heroic slash the most?
    1) Is it NB?
    Is it DK?
    Is it stamden?
    Etc.

    2) does one get affected more then the other?

    3) are you implying that, NB and other classes that don’t even really use s&B abilities are affected just as much as the DK? Just because they “technically

    In PVP I run S&B on the 3 characters I play. Stam Sorc (both bars), Stam Warden (back bar) and Templar (back bar). I think the one thing EVERYONE can agree on at the moment is that S&B is the current meta for all stamina classes in PVP. So yeah, you are being pretty ridiculous claiming this only affects your class.

    In PVE DK's are still top dog for tanking, but I'm still seeing plenty of Wardens, Templars and even a few sorcs lately. So again, to claim this only affects your class is just ridiculous

    So you are implying that your warden, templar and Stam Sorc use heroic slash just as much in there rotation as a Stam Dk? (Pvp)
    I use heroic slash as much as your warden uses subterranean, and templar to jabs. Your Stam Sorc? I already spoke for them in the post if you bothered to even read all of it...

    My Templar and Warden use heroic slash constantly, if anything it's my most used ability because both builds rely heavily on ultimate generation so I try to have heroism up 100% of time - plus it's my source of Maim.... Really, when you consider everything that it gives it's a very strong skill so why wouldn't you be using it on any class???

    Wardens have major heroism from shimmering shield. Why are you spamming that ability?

    Because I don't use shimmering shield???

    I’m wasting my time arguing with you.. Moving on from you

  • SirDopey
    SirDopey
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    With all the commotion about DK’s in general in this last week, I was very sure some things were going to get rebalanced(possible in our favor XD). Out of all of the skills(Suprise attack, Incap, Subterranean assault, and jabs) they decide to nerf heroic slash. Can anyone link me a post where someone is actually complaining about the ability?

    Which class utilizes heroic slash the most? Definitely Stamina DK’s. It’s no argument. With that being said, it must have been another direct nerf.

    We literally have use that ability to line up an already high counter played ability(dizzy swing). If we miss the dizzy swing? Tough ***... we don’t have a poison whip, Suprise attack, subterranean, or jabs to fall to fall back on. (This is for you to Stam sorcs).

    I understand this nerf to the ability won’t completely break our class. My concerns is the direction our class is going. All of these direct/indirect nerfs are pretty small, but when you compile them all together on a list, it’s pretty fat. They don’t seem to understand the impacts they are having.

    I propose we get a poison inhale(it seems more possible then poison whip). They can keep all the changes, but they definitely need to provide us a little more offensive capability. We have the most counter play at the moment

    HOW is this a DK nerf as opposed to a S&B Nerf? This affects ALL classes using the skill. The DK fan club is starting to get reeeal annoying with the whole internalizing every change into a nerf directed at them. I'm sick of hearing it.

    The questions you should ask your self. Which class normally has 3-4 S&B abilities? Which class uses heroic slash the most?
    1) Is it NB?
    Is it DK?
    Is it stamden?
    Etc.

    2) does one get affected more then the other?

    3) are you implying that, NB and other classes that don’t even really use s&B abilities are affected just as much as the DK? Just because they “technically

    In PVP I run S&B on the 3 characters I play. Stam Sorc (both bars), Stam Warden (back bar) and Templar (back bar). I think the one thing EVERYONE can agree on at the moment is that S&B is the current meta for all stamina classes in PVP. So yeah, you are being pretty ridiculous claiming this only affects your class.

    In PVE DK's are still top dog for tanking, but I'm still seeing plenty of Wardens, Templars and even a few sorcs lately. So again, to claim this only affects your class is just ridiculous

    So you are implying that your warden, templar and Stam Sorc use heroic slash just as much in there rotation as a Stam Dk? (Pvp)
    I use heroic slash as much as your warden uses subterranean, and templar to jabs. Your Stam Sorc? I already spoke for them in the post if you bothered to even read all of it...

    My Templar and Warden use heroic slash constantly, if anything it's my most used ability because both builds rely heavily on ultimate generation so I try to have heroism up 100% of time - plus it's my source of Maim.... Really, when you consider everything that it gives it's a very strong skill so why wouldn't you be using it on any class???

    Wardens have major heroism from shimmering shield. Why are you spamming that ability?

    Because I don't use shimmering shield???

    I’m wasting my time arguing with you.. Moving on from you

    Pretty sure you're wasting everybody's time with your arguments.
    NA PC | AD
    xx Doc Holliday xx
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ✭✭✭
    SirDopey wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    With all the commotion about DK’s in general in this last week, I was very sure some things were going to get rebalanced(possible in our favor XD). Out of all of the skills(Suprise attack, Incap, Subterranean assault, and jabs) they decide to nerf heroic slash. Can anyone link me a post where someone is actually complaining about the ability?

    Which class utilizes heroic slash the most? Definitely Stamina DK’s. It’s no argument. With that being said, it must have been another direct nerf.

    We literally have use that ability to line up an already high counter played ability(dizzy swing). If we miss the dizzy swing? Tough ***... we don’t have a poison whip, Suprise attack, subterranean, or jabs to fall to fall back on. (This is for you to Stam sorcs).

    I understand this nerf to the ability won’t completely break our class. My concerns is the direction our class is going. All of these direct/indirect nerfs are pretty small, but when you compile them all together on a list, it’s pretty fat. They don’t seem to understand the impacts they are having.

    I propose we get a poison inhale(it seems more possible then poison whip). They can keep all the changes, but they definitely need to provide us a little more offensive capability. We have the most counter play at the moment

    HOW is this a DK nerf as opposed to a S&B Nerf? This affects ALL classes using the skill. The DK fan club is starting to get reeeal annoying with the whole internalizing every change into a nerf directed at them. I'm sick of hearing it.

    Are you one of those guys who said wrath nerf isn't a stamDK nerf lol.
    Because I swear you are just as ridicilous as those guys.

    Obviously stamDK out of all classes relies on this the most.

    Simply saying something is Obvious doesn't make it so. The Nerf affects all classes equally, so thinking DK's are so special that every decision ZOS is making is revolving around them - it's not, its everything to do with the 7th legend HA cookie cutter builds in pvp.

    No the nerfs don't affect everyone equally.

    Shuffle nerf didn't affect stamdens as much as stamDks, because they have alternative burst heals.
    They can run forward momentum and be fine. Meanwhile green dragon blood is legit the worst healing ability in the game.
    It is soooo bad that wardens can outheal it with 2 light attacks from green lotus.

    and wrath removal didn't affect stamblades as much as stamDks because they don't rely on heavy armor for survival in the first place.
    (funny enough they are also stronger than sDKs in heavy armor too.)

    You can't say a nerf to a general ability is a general nerf because it can be used by everyone.
    A nerf to an ability mainly used by stamDks, means it is more of a nerf to stamDks.

    simple to understand really.

    Again, you're just cherry picking things to back up you're tired claims of DK's being the soul source of nerfs. Shuffle: Explain to me then how this nerf affected DKs more than Templars?

    What you are effectively doing is finding ONE class that won't feel the pain of a general nerf as bad as a DK and then jumping up and down saying look look, its another DK nerf ignoring the fact that there are still 3 other classes equally affected.

    It's tiring, pointless and only making DK's look silly.

    quick explaination, templars do have the ability to purge spam, and the stamplar meta is already medium armor.

    You are the one cherry picking here mate, Not everyone is equally affected by same nerfs. This is as dumb as saying
    ''lets buff everything so nothing is underperforming!'' Balance doesn't work that way. Certain classes do need certain things more than others.

    DK is a slow class, so the long snare nerf combined with gapcloser nerf hurts. Why is this so damn hard to understand?

  • TrinityBreaker
    TrinityBreaker
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Bound armaments with a passive stamina execute.
    Ebonheart for life.
    Xbox NA
    I am Dog Star.

    Khajiit Stam Sorc - Ji'saad Ranajiradh AR 30
    Khajiit Mag DK - Kesjhad
    Khajiit Magblade - Ji'sava Ak'nir
    Fat Khajiit Stamplar - Dro'haniAk'nir - AR 36
    Khajiit Stam Dk - Diego Ri'jhad - AR 49
    Khajiit Magplar - Dro'nara Ak'nir
    Khajiit StamBlade - Ri'artharr Ak'nir
    Fat Khajiit Stamden - Dro'hani Warbreaker
    Argonian Stam DK - Tiberius Demetros
    Khajiit Stamplar - Diëgo Ri'jhad
    Fat Khajiit Stam DK - Drö'hani Ak'nir/Dances-With-Alkosh
    Khajiit Magden - Arctic Mayhem


  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    You are just wasting mine. You are over here trying to say that this nerf impacts all classes equally, because you are one of the few stamdens that use it just as much as other DK’s.(fact: you are one of the FEW stamdens that run heroic slash over shimmering shields.)

    That’s like saying: a nerf to wrecking blow impacts all classes equally becaus you are one of them few that uses it on a stamblade
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Bound armaments with a passive stamina execute.

    not to mention slotting bound armaments grants you %20 stam and hp recovery, with the daedric protection and it stacks with major recovery buffs as far as I know.

    But I am obviously asking for too much when I say revert battle roar.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Bound armaments with a passive stamina execute.

    not to mention slotting bound armaments grants you %20 stam and hp recovery, with the daedric protection and it stacks with major recovery buffs as far as I know.

    But I am obviously asking for too much when I say revert battle roar.

    It also requires you to double bar it. You basically compared 1 stam sorc ability that needs two slots + one passive with one DK passive. How does that even make any sense?
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ✭✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Bound armaments with a passive stamina execute.

    not to mention slotting bound armaments grants you %20 stam and hp recovery, with the daedric protection and it stacks with major recovery buffs as far as I know.

    But I am obviously asking for too much when I say revert battle roar.

    It also requires you to double bar it. You basically compared 1 stam sorc ability that needs two slots + one passive with one DK passive. How does that even make any sense?

    It isn't really a huge sacrifice when you consider you can use overload bar for certain abilities and even dark deal.

    Dk sustain is all stamDK has.The class is meant to have the best sustain, which isn't the case anymore.
    So this is why bound armaments is sooo important. that skill is a double slot, but it gives you more sustain than a stamDk gets, if you're not planning on a permablock build.

    On my stamDK 2h build I use FoO on back bar, and evil hunter on front bar.

    On my stamsorc I am planning to use bound armaments+draugr hulk+ weapon crit pots to compensate for the less crit.
    I can also go bone pirate instead for insane regen and in that case I won't even need to dark deal for the most part, but why bother with that when I can pop an immo pot and dark deal for free?

    Not saying stamsorc is the best class or anything,I think they are well balanced right now. but its definitely is not below stamDK by any means, and it will be even better than it already is, when the next patch goes live.

    Only thing stamDK does better right now is permablocking, which I believe shouldn't even be a thing at this point, and its only really gonna work against potatoes.

    But...

    If you think stamDK with its two dots+blockcasting are better to have than all the amazing stuff stamsorcs has, by all means, go and play a stamDk. See for yourself.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 31, 2018 1:13AM
  • Jjitsuboy98
    Jjitsuboy98
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    I used heroic slash as my main spammable on my Stam dk. All of these "little nerfs" effect Stam dk a lot as they build up. I no longer play Stam dk sadly. And @SirDopey ......what the heck are you talking about ? Nerfs effecting classes the same? Thats not true at all.
  • SirDopey
    SirDopey
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    KingLogix wrote: »
    You are just wasting mine. You are over here trying to say that this nerf impacts all classes equally, because you are one of the few stamdens that use it just as much as other DK’s.(fact: you are one of the FEW stamdens that run heroic slash over shimmering shields.)

    That’s like saying: a nerf to wrecking blow impacts all classes equally becaus you are one of them few that uses it on a stamblade

    Shimmering shield provides no benefit whatsoever against malee opponents?!?! It's a skill that has limited usefulness, doesn't provide maim and still requires me to have heroic slash on my back bar for when I get jumped by a purely melee build?

    Does every DK in the game run around with wings slotted????
    NA PC | AD
    xx Doc Holliday xx
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
    ✭✭✭
    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Bound armaments with a passive stamina execute.
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    You are just wasting mine. You are over here trying to say that this nerf impacts all classes equally, because you are one of the few stamdens that use it just as much as other DK’s.(fact: you are one of the FEW stamdens that run heroic slash over shimmering shields.)

    That’s like saying: a nerf to wrecking blow impacts all classes equally becaus you are one of them few that uses it on a stamblade

    Shimmering shield provides no benefit whatsoever against malee opponents?!?! It's a skill that has limited usefulness, doesn't provide maim and still requires me to have heroic slash on my back bar for when I get jumped by a purely melee build?

    Does every DK in the game run around with wings slotted????

    If you copy and pasted shimmering shield to our skill line, we wouldn’t go to pvp without it. The ability is super cheap, and completely negates ranged characters. Shimmering shield is the better version of wings. At this point you are just sounding kind of dumb.
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
    ✭✭✭
    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Bound armaments with a passive stamina execute.

    not to mention slotting bound armaments grants you %20 stam and hp recovery, with the daedric protection and it stacks with major recovery buffs as far as I know.

    But I am obviously asking for too much when I say revert battle roar.

    Sorry I didn’t mean to mention you in the other comment

  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    ✭✭
    Izaki wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Dark Deal and Surge aren't "true" stamina morphs. Hurricane is the only one. Its the only ability that scales with max stamina and weapon damage that Stam Sorcs have. Dark Deal can and is used by certain Mag Sorcs, Crit Surge is very widely used by Mag Sorcs in PvE (especially in vMA) since it gives a bigger heal and you get Major Sorcery from pots anyway. You don't see any Mag Sorcs using Hurricane however.

    I could say that Flames of Oblivion, Igneous Shield and Green Dragon Blood are also Stam DK abilities, because they benefit Stam DKs just as much as they benefit Mag DKs. You don't see Mag DKs using Venomous Claw or Noxious Breath however.

    yet I would prefer to have dark deal,hurricane and surge over 2 crappy dots.

    MagDk doesn't have a reason to use venomous claws and noxious breath when they have the magicka version of those dots with much stronger utility.

    ''But if you think sorcs have much stronger kit, why don't you play a stamsorc?''

    I am playing one right now actually. So before you ask that, let me answer that question for you.

    Wasn't gonna ask that question.

    It has nothing to do with what I was saying about the different morphs. Stamina Sorc has 1 real Stamina morph, that's Hurriance. Stam DK has 3 (Claw, Noxious and Take Flight).
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #MidnightSlayers
    #MoreDPSthanYou #ImmortalRedeemerOnStamblade
    #Stamblade
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ✭✭✭
    Izaki wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Dark Deal and Surge aren't "true" stamina morphs. Hurricane is the only one. Its the only ability that scales with max stamina and weapon damage that Stam Sorcs have. Dark Deal can and is used by certain Mag Sorcs, Crit Surge is very widely used by Mag Sorcs in PvE (especially in vMA) since it gives a bigger heal and you get Major Sorcery from pots anyway. You don't see any Mag Sorcs using Hurricane however.

    I could say that Flames of Oblivion, Igneous Shield and Green Dragon Blood are also Stam DK abilities, because they benefit Stam DKs just as much as they benefit Mag DKs. You don't see Mag DKs using Venomous Claw or Noxious Breath however.

    yet I would prefer to have dark deal,hurricane and surge over 2 crappy dots.

    MagDk doesn't have a reason to use venomous claws and noxious breath when they have the magicka version of those dots with much stronger utility.

    ''But if you think sorcs have much stronger kit, why don't you play a stamsorc?''

    I am playing one right now actually. So before you ask that, let me answer that question for you.

    Wasn't gonna ask that question.

    It has nothing to do with what I was saying about the different morphs. Stamina Sorc has 1 real Stamina morph, that's Hurriance. Stam DK has 3 (Claw, Noxious and Take Flight).

    Correct. and it also means a huge nothing when both classes are using weapon skills.
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    ✭✭
    .
    Edited by Izaki on January 31, 2018 1:48AM
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #MidnightSlayers
    #MoreDPSthanYou #ImmortalRedeemerOnStamblade
    #Stamblade
  • SirDopey
    SirDopey
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    KingLogix wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Bound armaments with a passive stamina execute.
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    You are just wasting mine. You are over here trying to say that this nerf impacts all classes equally, because you are one of the few stamdens that use it just as much as other DK’s.(fact: you are one of the FEW stamdens that run heroic slash over shimmering shields.)

    That’s like saying: a nerf to wrecking blow impacts all classes equally becaus you are one of them few that uses it on a stamblade

    Shimmering shield provides no benefit whatsoever against malee opponents?!?! It's a skill that has limited usefulness, doesn't provide maim and still requires me to have heroic slash on my back bar for when I get jumped by a purely melee build?

    Does every DK in the game run around with wings slotted????

    If you copy and pasted shimmering shield to our skill line, we wouldn’t go to pvp without it. The ability is super cheap, and completely negates ranged characters. Shimmering shield is the better version of wings. At this point you are just sounding kind of dumb.

    Riiight, so that the best you've got now. Resulting to insults.... Ranged attacks are the vary least of my concerns in PVP and never ever when I'm going to be looking at my ultimate checking to see when it's going to be ready - those times are when I'm rooted to the ground by a DK or getting ambush spammed. (In absolute all seriousness, what percentage of deaths for good players actually come from projectile attacks???)

    It's quite humorous that I'm defending the usefulness of an ability that you feel a small change to is nerfing your class so much, if it's so useless then why are you crying about it so much?
    NA PC | AD
    xx Doc Holliday xx
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
    ✭✭✭
    Im sorry if I am insulting you
    Edited by KingLogix on January 31, 2018 2:24AM
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
    ✭✭✭
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Stam Sorcs have only 1 stamina morph in the game.

    Dark Deal, Hurricane, surge

    Bound armaments with a passive stamina execute.
    SirDopey wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    You are just wasting mine. You are over here trying to say that this nerf impacts all classes equally, because you are one of the few stamdens that use it just as much as other DK’s.(fact: you are one of the FEW stamdens that run heroic slash over shimmering shields.)

    That’s like saying: a nerf to wrecking blow impacts all classes equally becaus you are one of them few that uses it on a stamblade

    Shimmering shield provides no benefit whatsoever against malee opponents?!?! It's a skill that has limited usefulness, doesn't provide maim and still requires me to have heroic slash on my back bar for when I get jumped by a purely melee build?

    Does every DK in the game run around with wings slotted????

    If you copy and pasted shimmering shield to our skill line, we wouldn’t go to pvp without it. The ability is super cheap, and completely negates ranged characters. Shimmering shield is the better version of wings. At this point you are just sounding kind of dumb.

    Riiight, so that the best you've got now. Resulting to insults.... Ranged attacks are the vary least of my concerns in PVP and never ever when I'm going to be looking at my ultimate checking to see when it's going to be ready - those times are when I'm rooted to the ground by a DK or getting ambush spammed. (In absolute all seriousness, what percentage of deaths for good players actually come from projectile attacks???)

    It's quite humorous that I'm defending the usefulness of an ability that you feel a small change to is nerfing your class so much, if it's so useless then why are you crying about it so much?

    I’m sorry if I am insulting you
  • Derra
    Derra
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Izaki wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Building a DW/DW Stam DK I immediately noticed one big issue with stam DK:

    td54ccxe6eva.png


    Even the last few ticks of Venomous Claw are outperformed by Blood Craze.

    Granted, this is with Master DW, but still... one would expect atleast the last few ticks to deal more damage.


    I think they should give the skill some additional effect that benefits PvP DKs, it feels very weak at the moment. I mean, why would I ever slot Venomous Claw and deal less damage (that doesn't ignore mitigation like bleeds) compared to Blood Craze. And that's omitting the Blood Craze healing entirely (or Rending Slashes snare which is 50% compared to 30% Warmth passive if you go with that morph).


    But yeah, those issues aside I think this patch is buffing sDK both directly & indirectly tbh.

    Buffs:
    • Steel Tornado undodgeable - this makes DW sooo much better. Cleave also undodgeable for those who want to try Master Brawler on sDK... (haven't tested yet).
    • Off Balance changes, ability to stun with Power Lash (or just medium weave). Frees up two skill slots: your CC (you can use Tactician+Shuffle/dodge roll->Power Lash for stun) & Vigor (because that Power Lash heals for more than Vigor even on stam builds).

    Remains to be seen how viable they'll be.

    1. Blood Craze is a bleed. Bleeds ignore the target's armor values. So if you don't have a lot of penetration to begin with, bleeds are VERY valuable. If you test Blood Craze vs Venom Claw while having 18.2K penetration on the dummy, the latter will outperform the former in a big way, unless you have the Master DW, in which case they would be about the same. If you had used say Noxious Breath to debuff the target, your Claw would deal a very noticeable amount more damage.

    Yes, of course with Noxious applied it's more damage, but still much less than Blood Craze:
    nvjax7yuv5wr.png

    ...and requires you to combine it with another skill (that's not guaranteed to land in PvP) to get real value out of it. And still (while dealing less damage) doesn't provide the secondary effect Blood Craze/Rending Slashes does, and also doesn't gain +20% dmg to low health enemies or +15% dmg to stunned enemies.

    For PvP, Venomous Claw just seems awful and could use some buffs (ones that don't affect PvE).
    Izaki wrote: »
    2. Steel Tornado has always been undodgeable, its an AoE. The change in the patch notes was directed at the base ability, which was also unblockable aparently. But Steel Tornado and the other morph always were undodgeable.

    It isn't undodgeable, there was even a thread about it: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/386362/steel-tornado-is-dodgeable




    I've even tested it myself. Brawler (another AoE) also was dodgeable before this latest PTS update.

    There are still dodgeable stamina AoEs: Power Extraction, Claws of Anguish/Life, Bombard/Acid Spray, Endless Hail/Arrow Barrage


    I stand corrected for the Steel Tornado thingy, I seriously didn't expect any AoEs to still be dodgeable..!

    (See kids this is how you get rekt on the forums xD)

    Nobody will blame you - the game is riddled with the inconsistencies and this patch is actually the first time the devs oppenly try to adress them. I´m pretty hyped about that after playing since 2014 :joy:
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

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