Vaoh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

I thought that as a Sorc I would finally get to use a class-based Ult in a trial -_- rip

Negate -> vAA.

Where in AA? Atm I can't remember ever seeing a single Negate Magic in trials except for Gargoyles in vHRC HM.

Derra wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

On a side note, buff the Twilight Tormentor please...

I think the tormentor is relatively fine - it could use slight buffs but nothing too extreme. It can hit for 4k+ on pvp targets.

The problem for pvp is that pet abilities (scamp pulse) get CP and ability critdmg but the standard petattacks DO NOT.
If they were to finally adress pets not scaling with all your character stats it would be fine.

Derra wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

On a side note, buff the Twilight Tormentor please...

I think the tormentor is relatively fine - it could use slight buffs but nothing too extreme. It can hit for 4k+ on pvp targets.

The problem for pvp is that pet abilities (scamp pulse) get CP and ability critdmg but the standard petattacks DO NOT.
If they were to finally adress pets not scaling with all your character stats it would be fine.

Derra wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

On a side note, buff the Twilight Tormentor please...

I think the tormentor is relatively fine - it could use slight buffs but nothing too extreme. It can hit for 4k+ on pvp targets.

The problem for pvp is that pet abilities (scamp pulse) get CP and ability critdmg but the standard petattacks DO NOT.
If they were to finally adress pets not scaling with all your character stats it would be fine.

Scaling with CP passives is what the Twilight needs. It's the only ability in the game that is not affected by CP and I don't understand why.

I don't think the Tormentor is good. Her ability is only usefull while above 50% health. I don't know what, but she needs something else. The twilight matriarch is always usefull.

I think critdmg is the most important stat pets are currently missing entirely.
I do like the tormentor as it hits noticeably harder than twilight - or rather i dislike twlight bc the heal gets stolen by some random player too often

Erraln wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Totally not true, under no circumstances.
The best I was able to achieve, was an increase of 10-20%

Alright, so here's the numbers I've seen...

Performed with an Altmer Sorceror on Live and PTS, in two gearsets.
2 Ilambris 5 Julianos 3 Willpower (dead Nirnhoned lightning staff)
2 Ilambris 5 Necropotence 4 Master Architect (same staff, completing 4th slot now)

CP were set to this guide because it's the first result on Google for 'magsorc pve' and therefore a realistic combination to expect normal people to run.

Format is Condition: Noncrit _ Crit
No raid buffs, no additional sources of penetration, no Minor Vulnerability, Apprentice Mundus, this is as non-cheesed as I could reasonably make it. I did drink a spellpower potion for buffs during each test, as that's realistic for the game mode I care about (Trials).

Live:
	CP:
		Juli:
			No Prey:3351	5026
			Prey:	4691	7036
		Necro:
			No Prey:3445	5168
			Prey:	4823	7235
	NoCP:
		Juli:
			No Prey:3058	4587
			Prey:	4281	6421
		Necro:	
			No Prey:3133	4700
			Prey:	4386	6579
PTS:
	CP:
		Juli:
			No Prey:4197	7145
			Prey:	5875	10003
		Necro:
			No Prey:4196	7174
			Prey:	5874	10044
	NoCP:
		Juli:
			No Prey:2653	3980
			Prey:	3714	5572
		Necro:
			No Prey:2672	4008
			Prey:	3740	5611

So yes, the ultimate is now weaker without champion points. How much CP does it take to surpass the Live strength, though?

Less than 300. I set my Blue points to: 43 ele expert, 10 spell erosion, 16 Master at Arms, 31 Thaumaturge (100 total) with no rhyme or reason behind it whatsoever, except that it seems like the sort of bonuses someone might go after without thinking too much about it.

Resulting skill strength with Julianos gearing, with Daedric Prey: 5019, 7529. Live damage at CP cap in the same situation was 4691, 7036.

So, uh, yea. Necropotence gearing, 5874->10044 PTS vs 4823->7235 Live, even if you make the pessimistic assumption of 40% crit rate that still comes out to a 30% increase.

Totally true, under many circumstances, every Magsorc above 300cp can have a stronger Atro next patch. I'm sorry if you don't play modes that will let you use it, but many people do. And this is without almost all buffs imaginable. With synergy, with raid penetration, with Major Force, and so forth, I wouldn't be shocked to see 15k or higher crit ticks in raids. In fact I wonder if it can replace Ballista as the single-target ult for Stamsorc setups as well; it doesn't seem to scale with Precise Strikes CP or Khajiit passives, but Major and Minor Force will still both buff the Storm Atro's crit damage, as they buff all crit damage.

I'll add some screenshot links as I have time to upload them, tomorrow. Can you think of anything I missed?

Ninja nerf status: nope.

Dracane wrote: »

Ninja nerf status: oh yes.
It has been nerfed and CP only make up for it. We have come to the conclusion, that the damage nerf might come from the way the Atronach scales now, rather than being an actually set up nerf. Which is more CP and stat friendly than before. But without them, significantly weaker than before and being even weaker, is the last thing the Atronach needs.

I do not play non CP, or at least rarely. So I could just ignore all of this and be happy about a slight buff.
However, non CP pvp is very popular and battle grounds are popular as well. So why destroy this ult even more for such a big part of the player base ? Obviously you think that's cool or fair, wrong.

Erraln wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ninja nerf status: oh yes.
It has been nerfed and CP only make up for it. We have come to the conclusion, that the damage nerf might come from the way the Atronach scales now, rather than being an actually set up nerf. Which is more CP and stat friendly than before. But without them, significantly weaker than before and being even weaker, is the last thing the Atronach needs.

I do not play non CP, or at least rarely. So I could just ignore all of this and be happy about a slight buff.
However, non CP pvp is very popular and battle grounds are popular as well. So why destroy this ult even more for such a big part of the player base ? Obviously you think that's cool or fair, wrong.

I don't care whether it's fair or unfair, though I admit to not being upset about a performance drop in a game mode I don't play. Your thread is selling the idea that the skill is now weak and not worth using, that the patchnotes implying it could be better to pure specs than before were misinformation, and that isn't the case.

It IS stronger now, and not by a little. 30% buffs are the stuff new builds are made of.

pieratsos wrote: »

Erraln wrote: »

Ninja nerf status: nope.

There are currently two PVP campaigns without CP and any form of BGs is also without CP. That is literally more than half of this game's PVP. You clearly said that it was nerfed without CP. Thats the definition of ninja nerf. Not only they didnt say that in the patch notes, but they clearly said that it would be buffed cause it would scale with ur max stats. The patch notes are clearly misinformation.

Then people found that something is off, they said they will test it, it took them 2 days to do a 10 minute test, and then came back and instead of admitting what they did, they still tried to hide it and started pointing fingers on everyone telling them "dont test naked or low-geared".

We appreciate ur input and understand that the only thing u care is trials, but trials is not the only thing in this game and this change affects negatively a very big population of the game.

xaraan wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Erraln wrote: »

Ninja nerf status: nope.

There are currently two PVP campaigns without CP and any form of BGs is also without CP. That is literally more than half of this game's PVP. You clearly said that it was nerfed without CP. Thats the definition of ninja nerf. Not only they didnt say that in the patch notes, but they clearly said that it would be buffed cause it would scale with ur max stats. The patch notes are clearly misinformation.

Then people found that something is off, they said they will test it, it took them 2 days to do a 10 minute test, and then came back and instead of admitting what they did, they still tried to hide it and started pointing fingers on everyone telling them "dont test naked or low-geared".

We appreciate ur input and understand that the only thing u care is trials, but trials is not the only thing in this game and this change affects negatively a very big population of the game.

I have to add that non-CP pvp isn't the only thing in the game either, in fact it's not even half the game. So in the end, the opening post of the thread was far more misleading. It's not weaker and even in the tests that he Eraln has posted here or that Alcast did online show it as the strongest single target ulti for sorcs now and that's not counting the synergy. There is nothing wrong with having different ultimate as long as they each have their use, even a poster above pointed out some pvp situations a stationary atro could be useful and even that ignored a few other instances and the synergy buff.

There might be some merit to the argument that even if you are sub 300 CP or in no CP it shouldn't be nerfed, but painting it with a big conspiracy ninja nerf brush will come off as misleading to most players.

xaraan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Erraln wrote: »

Ninja nerf status: nope.

There are currently two PVP campaigns without CP and any form of BGs is also without CP. That is literally more than half of this game's PVP. You clearly said that it was nerfed without CP. Thats the definition of ninja nerf. Not only they didnt say that in the patch notes, but they clearly said that it would be buffed cause it would scale with ur max stats. The patch notes are clearly misinformation.

Then people found that something is off, they said they will test it, it took them 2 days to do a 10 minute test, and then came back and instead of admitting what they did, they still tried to hide it and started pointing fingers on everyone telling them "dont test naked or low-geared".

We appreciate ur input and understand that the only thing u care is trials, but trials is not the only thing in this game and this change affects negatively a very big population of the game.

I have to add that non-CP pvp isn't the only thing in the game either, in fact it's not even half the game. So in the end, the opening post of the thread was far more misleading. It's not weaker and even in the tests that he Eraln has posted here or that Alcast did online show it as the strongest single target ulti for sorcs now and that's not counting the synergy. There is nothing wrong with having different ultimate as long as they each have their use, even a poster above pointed out some pvp situations a stationary atro could be useful and even that ignored a few other instances and the synergy buff.

There might be some merit to the argument that even if you are sub 300 CP or in no CP it shouldn't be nerfed, but painting it with a big conspiracy ninja nerf brush will come off as misleading to most players.

I don't want to repeat myself over and over. If you don't play no cp, okay. Still you can't just ignore, that a nerf is at hand, thus the title is far from being misleading.

I guess we are nitpicking here, but I have done non cp many a time. Unlike a lot of posters I see all over the forums I play every part of this game, PvP, PvE, trials/dungeons, battlegrounds and I even like decorating houses. So I respect that you care about non-CP, but my nitpick is that it's not "far" from misleading. My opinion is that it was a bit and I can see why some take issue with it.

Most that see the title are going to think it applies to a variety of game scenarios, not a very limited version of the game. But I don't fight against your concept that is shouldn't be weaker in those scenarios.