The real reason why you won't find any tanks in the dungeon queue

BuddyAces · January 2018

SolidusPrime wrote: »

And feel free to not believe me, but it hasn't ben exaggerated the least. That guy was literally standing there sniping all day and doing nothing else.

I don't, honestly.

Until I see proof to the contrary, I am not going to believe that I have been a magically unique snowflake that has been lucky enough to just somehow avoid all of these bad groups...for years. A bad experience here or there? Sure. So bad that you can't queue as a tank? I doubt it.

No, this post sounds much more like someone that has a higherish-end DPS character and wants to stroke their ego. The fact that you think you're "carrying" everyone when you DPS AND tank just enforces this for me.

I guess you're just going to have to quit running dungeons as a tank. Sorry. The peasant masses just can't keep up with badass god-tier players such as yourself.

He's telling the truth. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've seen the snipe only person MANY times, I even call my wife over to show her when it happens. There are people that stand in the bad, don't rez, spam one ability, healers in heavy armor with a shield, dps with a shield and taunt on, ice staff users who taunt, and everything in between.

I loved getting PVP folks in my party. They'd always say "Sorry, I'm in my pvp gear yadda yadda yadda" but they are great. Wanna know why, they do more dps than most of the actual DPS that I would get Q'd with. They would do mechanics and not be dumb. You average run of the mill PVP person can do dungeons better than over half the pve folks who Q for em.

I'm not complaining at all though. When I use to tank pugs I knew what I was getting myself into. I knew who I'd more than likely get Q'd with and it never bothered me, was kinda fun watching em most of the time. I just thought I'd chime in to echo the other tanks in here though, these people do exist and you see a lot of em. On the other hand, tanks should expect this kind of stuff when they pug. If they don't like it then they shouldn't even bother Q'ing up and it doesn't give you a right to complain when it happens because it is going to happen.

tommalmm · January 2018

An average group isn't as bad as OP makes it look like. A very bad luck on his side. My personal experience is that 7/10 groups are decent to good, 2/10 are great and 1/10 or even less are terrible.

It changes in mechanically heavy dungeons, where it's more like 50/50, but you can queue for normal on these. It's just that some people with good DPS will die to every possible mechanic. They're too concentrated on their rotation to pay attencion to environment.

I've tanked a few hundreds vet dungeons with PUGs (at some point vet random + 3 pledges every day on two tanks - typical DK tank and nightblade tank/DPS).

But yeah, these cases just happen every now and then (and can be very frustrating - one reason I rolled an NB tank at some point, to have an easy option of decent dps on a tank). When this happens, though, I just quit and change characters.

I've seen both low CP players with above average DPS and LA or snipe-spamming 600+ CP players with 5-6k DPS (bought accounts? trolling? I wonder). But it's not like it's the norm.

Still, it's surprising to see both DDs and healer doing less DPS than you usually do solo on your DD. Makes you wonder why there is such a discrepancy. It's not like it's hard to do great DPS.

Carbonised · January 2018

Yesterday's pledges were a little better but not much.

Fungal II on vet, one DPS was alright, the other one was a CP130 something with horrible DPS. And of course when we came to the spider boss where one has to go into the cave, the good DPS went in, he was probably the only one who knew the mechanics anyway. So we were stuck with the bad DPS to actually do some damage on the boss. Suffice to say it took ages.
But at least we managed to finish it and HM for 2 keys.

Crypt II was much worse. Group actually wiped to chamber guardian, easiest boss in the dungeon. Not even a real boss. No idea how they died, I had aggro on the boss the whole time. Probably overwhelmed by skeletons since no one bothered to use any AOE on them, though I did use my talons several times.
The spider daedra was several wipes too. Everyone kept standing in the revolving AOE and died. No one got anyone out of cocoons, and they of course died. I think we eiped 3 times on that boss until people actually started to un-cocoon other people.
Final straw was the second last boss. Even after I explained the mechanics of her pull in - dodge out attacks, they still kept dying every single time. Whenever she did her attack it was at least 2 people dying, sometimes all 3, and I was left to try and ress people before her next phase.
Doesn't help that the damage was again abysmal. Whenever I do this as a DPS in a good group, we get 2 pull in phases at most, and burn her with ults and everything after 2. pullin. With this group we had 10-12 pullins before the entire group wiped.
After our 8th wipe or so, I gave up and quit the group.

Normal Falkreath went alright. First time in the queue I got a clueless group with some level 40s who had no idea what this dungeon was about. Insta-quit for me, and then stuck sitting 15 minutes in the cooldown. Next group was better, and we managed alright, even though I think I was the only one doing the mechanics with the cleansing and the bringing the 3-boss souls to the spots they are meant to go.

2+1 keys for my efforts that day, and much too long time spent in Crypt of Hearts with a bunch of clueless people. Stay tuned for today's lamentations of a PUG tank!

sudaki_eso · January 2018

Please dont stop queueing as a tank. I would say i do the pledges 50/50 with randoms and guild members and i am always happy if the tank in the group of randoms knows what to do. Unfortunatly with randoms thats not often the case but if you do you always get my appreciation at the end of the dungeon, something like excellent tanking or good tank. It seems that tanks dont get a lot of love in random groups. they are all so happy if you show them a little bit of appreciation, be it a simple thanks m8 oder a nice little happy dance

Asardes · January 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

The bad part: Never in my life have I seen such low DPS. Banished 1 should be a walk in the park even on vet. While the 2 DDs were CP'ed somewhere around 170, they did so stupidly little damage that it was embarrasing. Trash took so long to clear out, basically no AOEs were used, bosses took forever to take out too. I think my Embers and Engulfing were actually doing half the damage there.

When we came to the boss in Banished, the group wiped twice (them first, then I dies trying to rezz the group). When I asked one guy why he didn't rezz the rest, he said he couldn't (lack of soul gems? Didn't he just get like 3-4 soul gems just from killing the dungeon bosses?). The DDs kept dying in the blue fire AOEs that the boss casts, instead of simply moving out of it. 3rd time we finally took the boss down.

That looks just like my experience between Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood patches (march-june 2016). At that time they had just introduced the random dungeon XP buff and there were preciously little sources of XP other than that in that period. So I was queuing as tank for random veteran dungeons - back then there were the part 2 dungeons, that dropped monster heads and they weren't even guaranteed; I remember jumping for joy when I got my 1st Bloodspawn, and heavy infused to boot. So I farmed the monster heads and some XP I needed to reach the CP cap which was 501 if I remember correctly, while at the same time learning to play the game - I had never played this type of game before. There were just vanilla game dungeons in the queue since at that time I didn't own any DLC. The hardest as City of Ash 2. I sometimes ended up with people that struggled killing the tigers at the start, and then I knew it was time to bail out, as there was no queue penalty for leaving the group. Another dungeon that usually ended up being a wipe fest was Fungal Grotto 2, with people failing to kill the adds and dying one by one to the falling sword. Of course I was telling them in chat to concentrate on a single add, but of course nobody paid the slightest attention. With experiences like this I wonder how many of the people playing this game actually know basic English, or at least are functionally literate in their native language and have sufficient mental development to understand basic visual queues, like a team mate jumping at a certain spot. PUGs were, are, and will be thoroughly bad, since most people in them are bad at the game and have an attitude to match.

Asardes · January 2018

DoctorESO wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

People always complain about the lack of tanks, especially for dungeons and dailie queue.

Well, after having gotten my tank setup back again yesterday, I queued for the daily pledges, looking forward to taking a go with my new setup.

The good part: instantly got into groups for all 3 pledges. I did vet Banished 1, vet Vaults of Madness, and normal Bloodforge.

The bad part: Never in my life have I seen such low DPS. Banished 1 should be a walk in the park even on vet. While the 2 DDs were CP'ed somewhere around 170, they did so stupidly little damage that it was embarrasing. Trash took so long to clear out, basically no AOEs were used, bosses took forever to take out too. I think my Embers and Engulfing were actually doing half the damage there.
When we came to the boss in Banished, the group wiped twice (them first, then I dies trying to rezz the group). When I asked one guy why he didn't rezz the rest, he said he couldn't (lack of soul gems? Didn't he just get like 3-4 soul gems just from killing the dungeon bosses?). The DDs kept dying in the blue fire AOEs that the boss casts, instead of simply moving out of it. 3rd time we finally took the boss down.

Second dungeon was even worse, though I ewnt with a new group. Of course no one knows the mechanics of the first boss, so after he did his retribution mechanic, one of them died, and no one rezzed. I had to ask them to rezz the guy, since group DPS was so horrible we needed every one standing.
I've heard rumors about the guy who was just standing spamming snipe, but I've never met him, until now. He was literally standing still just spamming snipe over and over. Occasionally there was a poison spray, but other than that just snipe, snipe, snipe.
and when we came to Grothdarr they of course stood still in his lava until they died. Last boss they had no idea how worked. Every AOE wiped at least 2, many times all 3, of the group members, both the inside and the outside one. No one did any AOEs so we were often overwhelmed by adds, even as I tryed to taunt the larger ones and do damage with embers and engulfing. Several times I had to pop barrier and rezz one of them as I was the last person standing.
It also took 2 or 3 wipes to finish it.

Bloodroot was a little better. 2 DDs were around CP 130. When I mentioned that I hoped they had sufficiently enough DPS to do the dungeon, one of them instantly quit (I guess he took the hint). Our replacement was luckily around CP 600.
But again, when our healer died due to lag at the minotaur island boss, I waited for at least five minutes for someone to rezz, but no one did, and I had to actually rezz our healer while keeping taunt on the boss simultaneously. Other than that, it went somewhat smoothly.

If this is going to be the scenario, then I will be sure to run with only competent and high level people, no matter how trivial the dungeon. While I like tanking, I don't like to waste 2 hours doing dungeons that should be over in less than 1, while the group DPS is through the floor and people die to even the simplest mechanics. If this is the fate of most tanks, then I certainly know why you can't find any in the group finder.

Take home lessons: If you queue as a DPS, at least do a reasonable amount of damage. It doesn't have to go through the roof, but you have to do better than just standing and spamming snipe. If you get a dungeon that's above your skill level, at least have the decency to quit the group so they can find a better replacement. Several of the newer ones are very mechanic heavy, and I'm sorry but if you don't get it after a few tries, then I'm not going to stick around and waste my time and equipment repairs on you. In the same vein, don't queue for hard DLC dungeons like Hist, Reach or the soon coming Dragon Bones when you're level 40 something. Even on normal, that just makes you a liability. And for all the gods's sakes, when someone dies it's the damn DPS's jobs to rezz them. Don't just continue standing there spamming snipe on the boss while people fall like flies around you, expecting the tank to grab aggro, keep themselves alive and manage to rezz the dead as well.

Maybe stop queuing as a fake tank?

When you have really bad group, queuing as a "fake" tank - meaning a DD that can hold aggro but put out some respectable DPS - is actually the better option. Of course, as "proper" tank, with 2 support sets like Ebon Armory and Torug's Pact you can eventually taunt some of the bosses to death, and defeat them slowly with your ~5K DPS after the others died to avoidable mechanics that don't consider taunt, although you explained them before, then died repeatedly after you resurrected them to the same mechanics, but there's no reason to do it since it's a waste of time. For example once I was able to solo the last boss in Tempest Island down from ~20% just weaving Pierce Armor and Heroic Slash with heavy attack at her, but it was mind numbing and my hands hurt at the end.

Asardes · January 2018

If the OP only does pledges for 5 keys every day, meaning the non-DLC HM and the DLC normal, I would actually recommend a more offensive setup then I did on a separate topic he opened a few days ago. Namely 5 Silks of the Sun or Burning Spellweave (3 jewelry, hands, waist) and 5 Armor of the Seducer (chest, legs, feet, head, shoulders). Preferably Chest/Legs/Head infused and feet/shoulders/waist/hands sturdy, with tri-glyphs. Maelstrom 1H+S front bar and Lightning or even inferno back bar. With this setup you'll be able to pull decent DPS, keep aggro and restore some magicka from heavy attack weaving with heroic slash. This way the rest of the group becomes less relevant.

Carbonised · January 2018

Asardes wrote: »

If the OP only does pledges for 5 keys every day, meaning the non-DLC HM and the DLC normal, I would actually recommend a more offensive setup then I did on a separate topic he opened a few days ago. Namely 5 Silks of the Sun or Burning Spellweave (3 jewelry, hands, waist) and 5 Armor of the Seducer (chest, legs, feet, head, shoulders). Preferably Chest/Legs/Head infused and feet/shoulders/waist/hands sturdy, with tri-glyphs. Maelstrom 1H+S front bar and Lightning or even inferno back bar. With this setup you'll be able to pull decent DPS, keep aggro and restore some magicka from heavy attack weaving with heroic slash. This way the rest of the group becomes less relevant.

For sure. But I already have lots of experience as a DD, so I don't really want to be keeping doing that, just with a taunt slotted.
I do like playing as a real tanking, focusing mainly on survivability, sustain, and taking punishment.
So while your suggestion would indeed be better for being efficient in a PUG, it wouldn't feel very different from what I have been doing for 2 years now, mainly run as a DD.

This whole topic was mostly created to highlight the tank's perspective, and why you don't see people queueing as tanks in the group finder, since people have been complaining about no tanks in the group finder for ages. While as a DPS you can carry a really bad group quite far, you can't really do that as a (pure) tank, only if you go down the tank/DD hybrid route that you mention. And I don't want to respec and change my build solely due to compensating for lousy DDs in the group finder lol.

If this bad streak continues, I will simply work harder to find DDs in my friend list and guilds to run with instead, and the PUGs will have 1 less tank available in the group tool.

Asardes · January 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

If the OP only does pledges for 5 keys every day, meaning the non-DLC HM and the DLC normal, I would actually recommend a more offensive setup then I did on a separate topic he opened a few days ago. Namely 5 Silks of the Sun or Burning Spellweave (3 jewelry, hands, waist) and 5 Armor of the Seducer (chest, legs, feet, head, shoulders). Preferably Chest/Legs/Head infused and feet/shoulders/waist/hands sturdy, with tri-glyphs. Maelstrom 1H+S front bar and Lightning or even inferno back bar. With this setup you'll be able to pull decent DPS, keep aggro and restore some magicka from heavy attack weaving with heroic slash. This way the rest of the group becomes less relevant.

For sure. But I already have lots of experience as a DD, so I don't really want to be keeping doing that, just with a taunt slotted.
I do like playing as a real tanking, focusing mainly on survivability, sustain, and taking punishment.
So while your suggestion would indeed be better for being efficient in a PUG, it wouldn't feel very different from what I have been doing for 2 years now, mainly run as a DD.

This whole topic was mostly created to highlight the tank's perspective, and why you don't see people queueing as tanks in the group finder, since people have been complaining about no tanks in the group finder for ages. While as a DPS you can carry a really bad group quite far, you can't really do that as a (pure) tank, only if you go down the tank/DD hybrid route that you mention. And I don't want to respec and change my build solely due to compensating for lousy DDs in the group finder lol.

If this bad streak continues, I will simply work harder to find DDs in my friend list and guilds to run with instead, and the PUGs will have 1 less tank available in the group tool.

I would strongly recommend that. I stopped playing with PuGs when One Tamriel, and even before that I wasn't playing with entirely unknown people. I used to ask in zone chat in Deshaan or my trade guilds and asked people to link achievements for the dungeons. When I linked the achievements I usually got picked up straight away: "Tank LFG Gold & Silver [Deadlands Savvy] [Imperial City Challenger]" usually got me more PMs than I could answer to

montjie · January 2018

Wait what??

You did vet Bloodroot with pugs??? I salute you!

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2018

ruikkarikun wrote: »

If you have static group-friends dosen't mean all have it.

Last days I decided to do some vet pledges, and didnt any because of time queue.

I'm in 5 guilds (490 members each), and I shouted at all zone chats for PLEDGES, shouted at all guild chats and didnt find any group.

I'm sure you are happy with that yes?

Yes, sometimes your friends aren't available. So what ? It's not ZOS' responsibility to get you group mates tailored to your particular needs right on the spot.

Just in real life, if you want to go to an event with your friends and they have no time or are not interested, you can simply not go, or go alone, and join a group of strangers via a network, but noone and nothing will provide you with *friends*, right there, on the spot, fulfilling all your expectations.

Carbonised · January 2018

montjie wrote: »

Wait what??

You did vet Bloodroot with pugs??? I salute you!

No, read the OP. It says Bloodforge normal, and yesterday Falkreath normal. I've done Blood and Falk vet with friends, as a DD.

montjie · January 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

Wait what??

You did vet Bloodroot with pugs??? I salute you!

No, read the OP. It says Bloodforge normal, and yesterday Falkreath normal. I've done Blood and Falk vet with friends, as a DD.

Oohw my bad then. Got a bit excited xD

Despite your post being 100% true and most pugs ive been in were bad to mediocre its just that which keeps me tanking random vets (I really cant be bothered for normal). The reverse slice spammer running into a mob first...The snipe spammer..The light attack spammer...The BoL spammer...The DD with more health than the tank(me @ 30k)...One time I even had a cloak spammer join my wonderful adventures.
I mean, where else would you get such entertainment.

Only do it when bored and/or time isn't an issue lol

munster1404 · January 2018

I was Pugging a normal dungeon pledge. Since I had the highest CP (@ max) in the group, another player expressed surprise at a max CP queuing for a normal dungeon. I replied that I was just levelling undaunted and getting the skill points. Not looking forward to get rekt by veteran content or cause any frustration for group members. His reply?

"I feel you."

magictucktuck · January 2018

HAHA i just started tanking also and that's what i notice, i have never seen such low dps. as full tank setup i was getting 20% so i stated doing an aggressive thank with 2h on backbar for those situations. but last night i got 3 randoms in a row with cp 30-50 DPS so i gave up and went dps to finish them yesterday.

no for the people saying dont pug, i like to pug its not always so bad. and i fully expect to carry groups. BUT like fungal 2 they will never get past the 2nd boss. if i get locked down there the group goes. so i am also realistic depending on the dungeon. if there is a mechanic that will stop the group cold

munster1404 · January 2018

magictucktuck wrote: »

HAHA i just started tanking also and that's what i notice, i have never seen such low dps. as full tank setup i was getting 20% so i stated doing an aggressive thank with 2h on backbar for those situations. but last night i got 3 randoms in a row with cp 30-50 DPS so i gave up and went dps to finish them yesterday.

no for the people saying dont pug, i like to pug its not always so bad. and i fully expect to carry groups. BUT like fungal 2 they will never get past the 2nd boss. if i get locked down there the group goes. so i am also realistic depending on the dungeon. if there is a mechanic that will stop the group cold

I was getting 28% of the DPS as a tank spamming Pierce Armor and heavy attacks.

Fungal Grotto 2 second boss. Gaymne Bandu? I just reminded the group members to concentrate on only one of the shades after we wiped the first time. I do wish that first timers would at least read up dungeon guides or watch runs on YouTube before attempting the dungeon though.

JobooAGS · January 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

People always complain about the lack of tanks, especially for dungeons and dailie queue.

Well, after having gotten my tank setup back again yesterday, I queued for the daily pledges, looking forward to taking a go with my new setup.

The good part: instantly got into groups for all 3 pledges. I did vet Banished 1, vet Vaults of Madness, and normal Bloodforge.

The bad part: Never in my life have I seen such low DPS. Banished 1 should be a walk in the park even on vet. While the 2 DDs were CP'ed somewhere around 170, they did so stupidly little damage that it was embarrasing. Trash took so long to clear out, basically no AOEs were used, bosses took forever to take out too. I think my Embers and Engulfing were actually doing half the damage there.
When we came to the boss in Banished, the group wiped twice (them first, then I dies trying to rezz the group). When I asked one guy why he didn't rezz the rest, he said he couldn't (lack of soul gems? Didn't he just get like 3-4 soul gems just from killing the dungeon bosses?). The DDs kept dying in the blue fire AOEs that the boss casts, instead of simply moving out of it. 3rd time we finally took the boss down.

Second dungeon was even worse, though I ewnt with a new group. Of course no one knows the mechanics of the first boss, so after he did his retribution mechanic, one of them died, and no one rezzed. I had to ask them to rezz the guy, since group DPS was so horrible we needed every one standing.
I've heard rumors about the guy who was just standing spamming snipe, but I've never met him, until now. He was literally standing still just spamming snipe over and over. Occasionally there was a poison spray, but other than that just snipe, snipe, snipe.
and when we came to Grothdarr they of course stood still in his lava until they died. Last boss they had no idea how worked. Every AOE wiped at least 2, many times all 3, of the group members, both the inside and the outside one. No one did any AOEs so we were often overwhelmed by adds, even as I tryed to taunt the larger ones and do damage with embers and engulfing. Several times I had to pop barrier and rezz one of them as I was the last person standing.
It also took 2 or 3 wipes to finish it.

Bloodroot was a little better. 2 DDs were around CP 130. When I mentioned that I hoped they had sufficiently enough DPS to do the dungeon, one of them instantly quit (I guess he took the hint). Our replacement was luckily around CP 600.
But again, when our healer died due to lag at the minotaur island boss, I waited for at least five minutes for someone to rezz, but no one did, and I had to actually rezz our healer while keeping taunt on the boss simultaneously. Other than that, it went somewhat smoothly.

If this is going to be the scenario, then I will be sure to run with only competent and high level people, no matter how trivial the dungeon. While I like tanking, I don't like to waste 2 hours doing dungeons that should be over in less than 1, while the group DPS is through the floor and people die to even the simplest mechanics. If this is the fate of most tanks, then I certainly know why you can't find any in the group finder.

Take home lessons: If you queue as a DPS, at least do a reasonable amount of damage. It doesn't have to go through the roof, but you have to do better than just standing and spamming snipe. If you get a dungeon that's above your skill level, at least have the decency to quit the group so they can find a better replacement. Several of the newer ones are very mechanic heavy, and I'm sorry but if you don't get it after a few tries, then I'm not going to stick around and waste my time and equipment repairs on you. In the same vein, don't queue for hard DLC dungeons like Hist, Reach or the soon coming Dragon Bones when you're level 40 something. Even on normal, that just makes you a liability. And for all the gods's sakes, when someone dies it's the damn DPS's jobs to rezz them. Don't just continue standing there spamming snipe on the boss while people fall like flies around you, expecting the tank to grab aggro, keep themselves alive and manage to rezz the dead as well.

I have a bow/bow build that can do 30k single target dps (though I need to farm another vma/vdsa bow at some point) and people mistake me for one of those infamous "snipe spammers" when group dps is low as the other dps is just light attacking, maybe throwing a rapid strikes/force pulse or a heavy. But yeah I agree. bad dps are quite common

firedrgn · January 2018

People like playing bow and have to learn the hard way that you cant in dungeons. Unless your top t player and have a maelstrom bow. And trhen its back bar only
Not sure how any new play has the gutts to play this game and try to learn enough to dungeon with the sustain issuse. A crap ton of us moved to heavy attack to sustain. Zos just keeps forcing us to move then nerffs .
I fi had nit already had 160 gear and been playing a while i probably would not still be playing.

JobooAGS · January 2018

firedrgn wrote: »

People like playing bow and have to learn the hard way that you cant in dungeons. Unless your top t player and have a maelstrom bow. And trhen its back bar only
Not sure how any new play has the gutts to play this game and try to learn enough to dungeon with the sustain issuse. A crap ton of us moved to heavy attack to sustain. Zos just keeps forcing us to move then nerffs .
I fi had nit already had 160 gear and been playing a while i probably would not still be playing.

you can get well over 30k dps with a bow main build, it just falls behind the meta builds ie dw/bow or destro/destro

Magdalina · January 2018

munster1404 wrote: »

magictucktuck wrote: »

HAHA i just started tanking also and that's what i notice, i have never seen such low dps. as full tank setup i was getting 20% so i stated doing an aggressive thank with 2h on backbar for those situations. but last night i got 3 randoms in a row with cp 30-50 DPS so i gave up and went dps to finish them yesterday.

no for the people saying dont pug, i like to pug its not always so bad. and i fully expect to carry groups. BUT like fungal 2 they will never get past the 2nd boss. if i get locked down there the group goes. so i am also realistic depending on the dungeon. if there is a mechanic that will stop the group cold

I was getting 28% of the DPS as a tank spamming Pierce Armor and heavy attacks.

Fungal Grotto 2 second boss. Gaymne Bandu? I just reminded the group members to concentrate on only one of the shades after we wiped the first time. I do wish that first timers would at least read up dungeon guides or watch runs on YouTube before attempting the dungeon though.

Some people legit don't have enough dps to kill a single shade there in time even when focusing it, even when it's the tank getting chained down so full group's "dps" should be available. I kid you not.

I actually enjoy explaining mechanics but well only so much you can do.

Skullstachio · January 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

People always complain about the lack of tanks, especially for dungeons and dailie queue.

Well, after having gotten my tank setup back again yesterday, I queued for the daily pledges, looking forward to taking a go with my new setup.

The good part: instantly got into groups for all 3 pledges. I did vet Banished 1, vet Vaults of Madness, and normal Bloodforge.

The bad part: Never in my life have I seen such low DPS. Banished 1 should be a walk in the park even on vet. While the 2 DDs were CP'ed somewhere around 170, they did so stupidly little damage that it was embarrasing. Trash took so long to clear out, basically no AOEs were used, bosses took forever to take out too. I think my Embers and Engulfing were actually doing half the damage there.
When we came to the boss in Banished, the group wiped twice (them first, then I dies trying to rezz the group). When I asked one guy why he didn't rezz the rest, he said he couldn't (lack of soul gems? Didn't he just get like 3-4 soul gems just from killing the dungeon bosses?). The DDs kept dying in the blue fire AOEs that the boss casts, instead of simply moving out of it. 3rd time we finally took the boss down.

Second dungeon was even worse, though I ewnt with a new group. Of course no one knows the mechanics of the first boss, so after he did his retribution mechanic, one of them died, and no one rezzed. I had to ask them to rezz the guy, since group DPS was so horrible we needed every one standing.
I've heard rumors about the guy who was just standing spamming snipe, but I've never met him, until now. He was literally standing still just spamming snipe over and over. Occasionally there was a poison spray, but other than that just snipe, snipe, snipe.
and when we came to Grothdarr they of course stood still in his lava until they died. Last boss they had no idea how worked. Every AOE wiped at least 2, many times all 3, of the group members, both the inside and the outside one. No one did any AOEs so we were often overwhelmed by adds, even as I tryed to taunt the larger ones and do damage with embers and engulfing. Several times I had to pop barrier and rezz one of them as I was the last person standing.
It also took 2 or 3 wipes to finish it.

Bloodroot was a little better. 2 DDs were around CP 130. When I mentioned that I hoped they had sufficiently enough DPS to do the dungeon, one of them instantly quit (I guess he took the hint). Our replacement was luckily around CP 600.
But again, when our healer died due to lag at the minotaur island boss, I waited for at least five minutes for someone to rezz, but no one did, and I had to actually rezz our healer while keeping taunt on the boss simultaneously. Other than that, it went somewhat smoothly.

If this is going to be the scenario, then I will be sure to run with only competent and high level people, no matter how trivial the dungeon. While I like tanking, I don't like to waste 2 hours doing dungeons that should be over in less than 1, while the group DPS is through the floor and people die to even the simplest mechanics. If this is the fate of most tanks, then I certainly know why you can't find any in the group finder.

Take home lessons: If you queue as a DPS, at least do a reasonable amount of damage. It doesn't have to go through the roof, but you have to do better than just standing and spamming snipe. If you get a dungeon that's above your skill level, at least have the decency to quit the group so they can find a better replacement. Several of the newer ones are very mechanic heavy, and I'm sorry but if you don't get it after a few tries, then I'm not going to stick around and waste my time and equipment repairs on you. In the same vein, don't queue for hard DLC dungeons like Hist, Reach or the soon coming Dragon Bones when you're level 40 something. Even on normal, that just makes you a liability. And for all the gods's sakes, when someone dies it's the damn DPS's jobs to rezz them. Don't just continue standing there spamming snipe on the boss while people fall like flies around you, expecting the tank to grab aggro, keep themselves alive and manage to rezz the dead as well.

You and me both @Carbonised

When I use the group finder, I make sure I am prepped (With my Were-warden) for just about almost any outcome, be it good or bad or both.

as I am champion 690 until the console release of dragon bones.

When I tank: I use my sword and shield back hand, using leeching vines when necessary for the minor lifesteal, Winters revenge to slow and maim enemies with radial cold damage, Deep Slashes to maim enemies for slightly longer and slow them down on top of winters revenge, Pierce armor to taunt and weaken a foes resistances and if necessary, I use green lotus to bolster critical percentage slightly while also healing myself and low health allies on light and heavy attacks and for the ultimate, I vary between wild guardian on both hands for added damage or healing thickets if the healer in the group is doing a bad job or has down right bit the dust mid-fight and thus needing to pop healing thickets to res players under pressure.

When I DPS: I dual wield twin maces, I use green lotus (as said in the last one, critical chance buff and heals) Bloodthirst after landing a heavy hitter if needed but easily spammable for the damage/heals, Growing swarm as an AoE deterrent that conveniently spreads for more DPS (Especially with multiple targets as casting one instance on different targets close to each other results in one enemy having two stacks of growing swarm at the same time based on the time left on the first instance.) Bull netch for minor stamina sustain and major brutality/sorcery buffs, subterranean assault for major burst damage and major fracture/breach Debuffs on the enemy and for the ultimate, my true DPS power comes from my lycanthropy as my light attacks can hit for at least 7500+ damage on most bad guys with the first tick of bleed damage adding it up to around 10,000 a hit all together. (as the first small instance of bleed damage from the werewolves light attack always procs which adds on extra damage.)

This combination works extraordinarily well with the Pelinals aptitude set (crafted in medium with twin maces and a sword and shield as it focuses around weapon damage which stacks with savage strength, agility, etc) Briarheart Jewellery and two divine pieces of briarheart to add on extra weapon damage alongside the warrior mundus stone, and finally, the Mighty Chudan Monster set with one light and one heavy to benefit the undaunted mettle passive, and why mighty chudan, because not only does it confer a health bonus and added armor, but the permanent major ward/resolve bonus persists in werewolf form which stacks with the 9966 physical/spell resistance and the medium armor focus/ spell shield champion passives which makes this warden deadly and tanky at the same time.

(Personally you should give this a try one day.) but otherwise, I know exactly what you mean, if people ain't gonna do proper DPS or even do their role properly, then just make 'em leave or do what you did and leave them twirling in the dust, because professional people like us, like you, myself and this honorable community, do not need to drag around Noobs who have no clue as to how certain dungeon mechanics work. (or we could always play it smart and privately give them a few pointers in the game itself and make them better than what they already are and if they don't learn anything in the long run, then they can be left in the dust to rot as needed, they will get the message soon enough.)

P.S: Make sure you always have a plan B.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2018

munster1404 wrote: »

Fungal Grotto 2 second boss. Gaymne Bandu? I just reminded the group members to concentrate on only one of the shades after we wiped the first time. I do wish that first timers would at least read up dungeon guides or watch runs on YouTube before attempting the dungeon though.

It's not the first discussion on the topic, it's not the last, but I'm going to say it once more : No. No to the so-called obligation to "do your homework" before setting foot in a dungeon - especially a normal mode dungeon. Because, as a matter of principle, a game should be learned (and be learnable) by actually playing it.
Other aspects are :
- Most people (including me) don't figure out mechanics by simply watching a video. I actually need explanations, worded explanations.
- Most videos are not meant to teach anything, they're just meant to show off the group's "prowess".
- Most videos are badly done, badly configured, badly edited, wrong point of view, etc...
- Many players do not speak or understand english and most videos do not take that aspect into consideration.

There are (very, very few) videos and tutorials that actually teach properly. But again, only already experienced players are likely to know where to look to find them.

Now I understand, too, that experienced players are fed up with carrying bad/first-timer PUG players through dungeons. But rather than sending them to watch videos on Youtube, I'd encourage them to join guilds and learn with guilds. That's, imho, the correct way to go.

Splattercat_83 · January 2018

Shawn_PT wrote: »

I know you're blowing off some steam here. I know I did exactly the same. And then got chastised for putting 'newbies' (CP400+ people should really know better than to bow light attack spam while standing in stupid) in a bad light by a guild master.

But I guess that's why my tank and all my characters in fact have removed themselves from the PUG finder.

I'd tell that guild master until he pays for my game, my internet, my tv, and my platform to worry about himeself mind his own business.

Splattercat_83 · January 2018

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

There is nothing in game to inform people how to dps (or heal or tank).

There is nothing in game to inform people of how difficult the dungeon are about to enter.

The questing is so easy that no one ever feels the need to look up builds or feels they are bad enough they need to learn.

Banished cells is one of the dungeons you are directed to to get the undaunted questline.

Yep. The first dungeon I ever entered was Fungal. I went in with one other person - another girl who had no idea what she was doing. I didn't know what a tank or healer was. I didn't have set gear...just random stuff I picked up. Honestly, if I hadn't joined a guild with nice people to teach me, I may have quit the game a long time ago. It would have gotten too frustrating. I feel bad for the people I first ran WGT and ICP with back when those were the first DLC dungeons, and by far the hardest.

LMAO I remember the days of getting stuck at the first boss of Vet WGT. Not many people here remember the struggle lol

Streega · January 2018

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

New player starts the game, is level 3, and sees all these 690s running around melting things, want to get there. Hears that you can get to 50 quickly by buying carries in Skyreach, ports there.

The CP curve has such sharp scaling that it takes very little time to get to 160, and as soon as they get there, they start running the necessary dungeons to get the gear.

There's a quest in the Bankorai story line, Halls of the Dead, where you have to bring the ghost a sword, and the correct answer is the training sword. Skill trumps gear every time. But it's really easy to get to 160 without ever learning to play.

The sad part is that the people you queued with will probably not stick with the game once they realize that the latest build from <insert youtube channel here> doesn't activate god-mode for them.

I think this is the base problem with PUGs... We have to run with "How To Reach lvl 50 in 5 Hours" Academy graduates - no experience (how to use your skills), no gear, no skillpoints (so no skills).
I'm a very patient and laid-back person, I will gladly explain the mechanics, wait for you if you need the quest, won't rage-quit after first wipe. What gets me the most is they DON'T WANT TO learn. Usually it looks like that:
I ask "please stay with the Crown and wait before approaching the boss - tank goes first (usually)";
What happens? Everybody engages full sprint mode and runs in random directions, until they hit the boss and die after first strike, standing in AOE and light attacking. *sigh*

I'm not a meta/pro tank (but a decent one), I struggle in vet dungeons, I haven't reached the CP cap yet (15 CP left) - but I always listen and learn, and all my skills are maxed (well, except the Alliance skills, still working on that Barrier). If you are not willing to learn, then I won't even take the shield from my back.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · January 2018

I've never had the patience to learn to tank, but I've had similar experience as a healer. I like the idea of a barrier dungeon you have to complete before you can do vet Dungeons but that might be more than ZOS wants to pump into it as far as resources. Something that may be relatively simpler to implement would be to make it a requirement to beat the normal version before you can try Vet, and maybe have the groupfinder prioritize grouping people together who already have the achievement for a particular Vet dungeon over people who don't.

This might also help with people who queue expecting to be carried through the whole dungeon, because most of the time the groupfinder will then drop them in a group with other people who haven't beaten it either, making it harder to be carried and (hopefully) discouraging that playstyle. Maybe have a 'willing to mentor' checkbox that bypasses the achievement check, or does it in reverse, for people who WANT to teach newbies or have a lot of time on their hands.

I agree that Youtube videos aren't much use in most cases. Even the few where they actually explain what they're doing it usually ends up being a different role.

Illurian wrote: »

Isn't it part of the game and fun to work on them, figure them out, elaborate strategies and pass them along ?

No. It most definitely is not.

I'll tell you why. I was PuGing vet Bloodroot Forge to try and get the dye during the free ESO+ week. We had made it through to the Minotaur boss. I'd run through it on normal before so I had some idea of the mechanics. So before we cross the lava, I call for a quick break and once everyone seems to be back I start to explain what to expect.

I was in my inventory screen, checking food/gear etc, while I'm doing this, so I didn't see that before I'm more then halfway through my explanation, all three of them decided to run off and attack the boss.

They were of course slaughtered. With such a wonderful degree of comprehensive listening skills, not to mention the level of foresight one would expect from people who run ahead and attack a difficult boss without their healer, naturally matters didn't improve much. One by one they dropped out, to be replaced by new people who ALSO didn't know the mechanics, so I got to explain the rather involved mechanics to each new person.

Now, if explaining the same thing over and over to a succession of people who don't listen sounds fun for you...become a teacher, get paid for it! More power to you. But I don't find it fun.

DoctorESO · January 2018

.

kringled_1 · January 2018

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

No. It most definitely is not.

I'll tell you why. I was PuGing vet Bloodroot Forge to try and get the dye during the free ESO+ week. We had made it through to the Minotaur boss. I'd run through it on normal before so I had some idea of the mechanics. So before we cross the lava, I call for a quick break and once everyone seems to be back I start to explain what to expect.

I was in my inventory screen, checking food/gear etc, while I'm doing this, so I didn't see that before I'm more then halfway through my explanation, all three of them decided to run off and attack the boss.

They were of course slaughtered. With such a wonderful degree of comprehensive listening skills, not to mention the level of foresight one would expect from people who run ahead and attack a difficult boss without their healer, naturally matters didn't improve much. One by one they dropped out, to be replaced by new people who ALSO didn't know the mechanics, so I got to explain the rather involved mechanics to each new person.

Now, if explaining the same thing over and over to a succession of people who don't listen sounds fun for you...become a teacher, get paid for it! More power to you. But I don't find it fun.

The only dungeon that I've bailed on as the tank (vs. it being a mutual decision) was normal Falkreath Hold, with very similar events. Cernunnon fight, first try, one of the 'dd' tries to live up to the stereotypes and stay at long range and snipe the bosses. They died quickly, the rest of us got somewhere but eventually wiped. I try explaining the mechanics in chat, and die because one of the dd's has the attention span of a squirrel and pulls before I'm done and when I'm too far away to get into the circle or even be in rez range of the circle. They wipe. Third try, we do a bit better, but when both dd's die and I and the healer can't rez them, we wipe again. Trying to explain yet another mechanic, and squirrel boy pulls again, and...I leave.
Honestly though, that's pretty rare, even though I pug most of the time.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2018

kringled_1 wrote: »

Honestly though, that's pretty rare, even though I pug most of the time.

^This : THAT'S PRETTY RARE.

While I understand you wanting to share your experience, you must realize the self-predicting effect of any PUG-horror-story published on this forum. Good players usually do read here and will stick to their guildies and friends for dungeons. PUGs with unexperienced players will go on PUGging - they don't read forums anyway - with less and less people enclined to pass experience and knowledge along, and things will only get worse.

It's important to remember that the ESO community, while not entirely black-sheep-free (no community is), is fairly adult, friendly, polite and helpful, and most PUG runs go just fine. You may of course stumble upon horror-PUG-runs every now and then, but most of the time things are fine. Also, remember that some dungeons (mostly DLC dungeons) are just not meant to be PUGged in their vet version. Vocal coordination is simply required for completing them - unless you have the chance to get some super-DPS-hero in your group who carries everyone, but that's very rare.

TL/DR : Don't PUG hard dungeons on vet (unless you're ready for anything and have quite some time on your hands), but everything else is usually just fine for using the group finder.

Waylander07 · January 2018

To me using the group finder is like buying a lucky bag, you never know what you are going to get. what I don’t get is the players who use the group finder and constantly complain how lesser players slow them down. The group finder is not an elite player only tool so stop expecting everyone to cater to your playing experience. I have missed out on the PVE veteran side of the game because I had a couple of bad experiences with impatient players who have no time for people trying to learn the mechanics, It really put me off.
If being patient and helping others learn the game is not for you then find some likeminded players to group with or que again in the hope of finding a better group instead of constantly complaining and putting others off.
I also understand that if someone is pretending to be a tank or whatever and they are not or are unwilling to listen to advice then that is a different scenario.