PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

rustic_potato · January 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I have a suggestion that might be worth considering, and would create more build diversity among tanks: make block and armor mitigation additive and enforce a cap that applies to both of them together. This could look something like this:

1. Increase armor cap to 49650 (75%).
2. Block now increases armor by 16550 (25%) instead of being an additional multiplier in the calculation.
3. Excess armor reduces block cost by up to an additional 60%. So if you have 49650 armor from gear and buffs alone when you take a hit while blocking, you avoid all the secondary effects in typical block fashion, and this block costs 40% as much as it would normally have. This would scale with how far over the cap you are (so if you were missing 8275 armor before blocking, your block would cost 30% less than normally etc).
4. Adjust block costs to whatever is considered "balanced" for PvP with the new system.

The exact numbers are obviously up for discussion, but I think this would address all of the concerns raised.

This way people will have a choice of either going with high block cost reduction from the start to have something similar to the current meta, or stack armor for a more passive play style with weaker support capabilities, but in a way that is much better suited for beginners who are still learning the fights, allowing them to miss some heavy attacks without instantly dying. This approach would probably also make templars and NBs viable as tanks again.

This would also have the effect in PvP that no matter how much armor you stack, you will never really reach the cap, because the cap is so damn high, and penetration would become very powerful at making sure that your block costs the full amount. On top of that, penetration of just 3310 (5%) would effectively increase the damage on the just barely capped tank by 20% (going from 25% damage taken to 30%). With the numbers of penetration that are achievable, this could be a devastating counter play to PvP tanks (16550 would entirely negate the effect from blocking, potentially doubling the damage on the tank).

Problem with PVE is not the mitigation but the one shots. Certain attacks one shot a tank in max mitigation if they dont block said attack. There needs to be a complete rehaul of boss attacks too.

ZeroXFF · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I have a suggestion that might be worth considering, and would create more build diversity among tanks: make block and armor mitigation additive and enforce a cap that applies to both of them together. This could look something like this:

1. Increase armor cap to 49650 (75%).
2. Block now increases armor by 16550 (25%) instead of being an additional multiplier in the calculation.
3. Excess armor reduces block cost by up to an additional 60%. So if you have 49650 armor from gear and buffs alone when you take a hit while blocking, you avoid all the secondary effects in typical block fashion, and this block costs 40% as much as it would normally have. This would scale with how far over the cap you are (so if you were missing 8275 armor before blocking, your block would cost 30% less than normally etc).
4. Adjust block costs to whatever is considered "balanced" for PvP with the new system.

The exact numbers are obviously up for discussion, but I think this would address all of the concerns raised.

This way people will have a choice of either going with high block cost reduction from the start to have something similar to the current meta, or stack armor for a more passive play style with weaker support capabilities, but in a way that is much better suited for beginners who are still learning the fights, allowing them to miss some heavy attacks without instantly dying. This approach would probably also make templars and NBs viable as tanks again.

This would also have the effect in PvP that no matter how much armor you stack, you will never really reach the cap, because the cap is so damn high, and penetration would become very powerful at making sure that your block costs the full amount. On top of that, penetration of just 3310 (5%) would effectively increase the damage on the just barely capped tank by 20% (going from 25% damage taken to 30%). With the numbers of penetration that are achievable, this could be a devastating counter play to PvP tanks (16550 would entirely negate the effect from blocking, potentially doubling the damage on the tank).

Problem with PVE is not the mitigation but the one shots. Certain attacks one shot a tank in max mitigation if they dont block said attack. There needs to be a complete rehaul of boss attacks too.

With 75% mitigation those one shoots will not be one shoots. You missed the entire point of my suggestion. Blocking will be just as powerful as it is now, but with my suggestion there would be a way to substitute blocking with armor, without it getting out of hand in a PvP setting.

Nolic1 · January 2018

So tested the idea of crusher when using wall of elements on back bar and when I swap after this up date it drops the crusher effect from back bar. I have not tested if you have 2 crusher enchants but this is what I am seeing right now as of this latest update.

Liofa · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

So tested the idea of crusher when using wall of elements on back bar and when I swap after this up date it drops the crusher effect from back bar. I have not tested if you have 2 crusher enchants but this is what I am seeing right now as of this latest update.

You are not supposed to use Crusher on back bar . You use the Crusher on front , put blockade from back bar , switch to front , Crusher procs . It still works in PTS .

paulsimonps · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

So tested the idea of crusher when using wall of elements on back bar and when I swap after this up date it drops the crusher effect from back bar. I have not tested if you have 2 crusher enchants but this is what I am seeing right now as of this latest update.

@Nolic1
Well yes, you can't proc back bar enchantment while on front bar, but that is not what people are doing. You put weakening enchantment on back bar and Crusher on front bar. The back bar wall of elements will after swapping to front bar change from proccing weakening to proccing Crusher. That is what tanks like @Liofa are doing.

Nolic1 · January 2018

paulsimonps wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

So tested the idea of crusher when using wall of elements on back bar and when I swap after this up date it drops the crusher effect from back bar. I have not tested if you have 2 crusher enchants but this is what I am seeing right now as of this latest update.

@Nolic1
Well yes, you can't proc back bar enchantment while on front bar, but that is not what people are doing. You put weakening enchantment on back bar and Crusher on front bar. The back bar wall of elements will after swapping to front bar change from proccing weakening to proccing Crusher. That is what tanks like @Liofa are doing.

Ahh ok I thought they were using it to apply crusher for better up time from back bar.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

So after watching yesterdays ESO Live I think PvE tanking isn't getting hit nearly so hard as I originally thought. Here's why, with synergies no longer being on globle cool down it means they no longer have to shore space with our skills. They are becoming a tanks weave skill. Meaning we will be able to synergize once per second instead. Instead of 1- skill, 2 - skill, 3 - bar swap+sk ill, 4 - skill. It can be 1 - synergy+skill, 2 -synergy+skill, 3- synergy+bar swap+skill. Provide the synergies are available this will be a big boost to resource return via undaunted passives. Xbox so I wont be able to test it until its live. Just feels like this was what was between the lines of what @wrobel was saying on ESO Live

Cellentel · January 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

So after watching yesterdays ESO Live I think PvE tanking isn't getting hit nearly so hard as I originally thought. Here's why, with synergies no longer being on globle cool down it means they no longer have to shore space with our skills. They are becoming a tanks weave skill. Meaning we will be able to synergize once per second instead. Instead of 1- skill, 2 - skill, 3 - bar swap+sk ill, 4 - skill. It can be 1 - synergy+skill, 2 -synergy+skill, 3- synergy+bar swap+skill. Provide the synergies are available this will be a big boost to resource return via undaunted passives. Xbox so I wont be able to test it until its live. Just feels like this was what was between the lines of what @wrobel was saying on ESO Live

Unless a chance was announced during ESO Live, this isn't how things are going to work. Next patch you can only use any given type of synergy once per 30 seconds. In most of the time there are only 2-3 types of synergies provided by a group, meaning you can only synergize 2-3 times per 30 seconds.

Synergies on GCD was never really a problem for tanks, since, unlike DPS, good tanking is not dependent on using an ability every GCD.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2018

I’m so torn on this. Personally I hate the fact that tanking is a support role. That Tank set that just keep you alive and holding agro are looked down on. They are no go’s for trails and hard core content. At the same time it will hurt long running Guilds in the short term. Which can start a bad run away effect on PvE groups and numbers.

But I feel like this is what the Tanking role needed. Hear me out now. The great sets that keep you the guy that should never die alive are near useless to the team so no team likes them. Now look at this for the role of a new player. You take the sets that keep you up in a fight while holding agro but everyone bites your head off for running it. You are forced to take powers that do nothing for you in favor of DPS. After a few days or week which will you do learn the counter intuitive Tanking role or the straight forward DD role.

At it’s heart this is the problem that tanking is so counter intuitive that sets and powers that just keep you alive and holding agro is just not good enough. This is a bitter pill to swallow for player with no real time invested in the game.

I do believe for the problem of too few Tanks to be fixed. That Tanking needs to first be done with Tanking sets and powers. And that Tanking endgame needs to be doable for all five classes if they must Tank in different ways that’s not only fine it’s the best case scenario. Making Tanking more fun and less paint by numbers. Addressing the counter intuitive nature of Tanking is the only real first step, but it’s not the last.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

Cellentel wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

So after watching yesterdays ESO Live I think PvE tanking isn't getting hit nearly so hard as I originally thought. Here's why, with synergies no longer being on globle cool down it means they no longer have to shore space with our skills. They are becoming a tanks weave skill. Meaning we will be able to synergize once per second instead. Instead of 1- skill, 2 - skill, 3 - bar swap+sk ill, 4 - skill. It can be 1 - synergy+skill, 2 -synergy+skill, 3- synergy+bar swap+skill. Provide the synergies are available this will be a big boost to resource return via undaunted passives. Xbox so I wont be able to test it until its live. Just feels like this was what was between the lines of what @wrobel was saying on ESO Live

Unless a chance was announced during ESO Live, this isn't how things are going to work. Next patch you can only use any given type of synergy once per 30 seconds. In most of the time there are only 2-3 types of synergies provided by a group, meaning you can only synergize 2-3 times per 30 seconds.

Synergies on GCD was never really a problem for tanks, since, unlike DPS, good tanking is not dependent on using an ability every GCD.

I think that really depends on the tank. I have 3 buffs, 4 debuffs, and I HoT I keep up all the time. It leaves about a 4 second window out of every 20. Yes there are only so many synergies out there, no where near 30 but considering I can see upwards ot 5 Alkosh running at once it might just be better than I originally thought. Of course there are other fights where I wonder why I'm even running Alkosh because 11 people and barely even a shard dropping.

rustic_potato · January 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I have a suggestion that might be worth considering, and would create more build diversity among tanks: make block and armor mitigation additive and enforce a cap that applies to both of them together. This could look something like this:

1. Increase armor cap to 49650 (75%).
2. Block now increases armor by 16550 (25%) instead of being an additional multiplier in the calculation.
3. Excess armor reduces block cost by up to an additional 60%. So if you have 49650 armor from gear and buffs alone when you take a hit while blocking, you avoid all the secondary effects in typical block fashion, and this block costs 40% as much as it would normally have. This would scale with how far over the cap you are (so if you were missing 8275 armor before blocking, your block would cost 30% less than normally etc).
4. Adjust block costs to whatever is considered "balanced" for PvP with the new system.

The exact numbers are obviously up for discussion, but I think this would address all of the concerns raised.

This way people will have a choice of either going with high block cost reduction from the start to have something similar to the current meta, or stack armor for a more passive play style with weaker support capabilities, but in a way that is much better suited for beginners who are still learning the fights, allowing them to miss some heavy attacks without instantly dying. This approach would probably also make templars and NBs viable as tanks again.

This would also have the effect in PvP that no matter how much armor you stack, you will never really reach the cap, because the cap is so damn high, and penetration would become very powerful at making sure that your block costs the full amount. On top of that, penetration of just 3310 (5%) would effectively increase the damage on the just barely capped tank by 20% (going from 25% damage taken to 30%). With the numbers of penetration that are achievable, this could be a devastating counter play to PvP tanks (16550 would entirely negate the effect from blocking, potentially doubling the damage on the tank).

Problem with PVE is not the mitigation but the one shots. Certain attacks one shot a tank in max mitigation if they dont block said attack. There needs to be a complete rehaul of boss attacks too.

With 75% mitigation those one shoots will not be one shoots. You missed the entire point of my suggestion. Blocking will be just as powerful as it is now, but with my suggestion there would be a way to substitute blocking with armor, without it getting out of hand in a PvP setting.

There are certain mechanics that will one shot you if you don't block. Doesn't matter how much HP or armor you have. It is designed to be that way. Some of those mechanics take 60-70% of the tank HP even through block mitigation.

ZeroXFF · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I have a suggestion that might be worth considering, and would create more build diversity among tanks: make block and armor mitigation additive and enforce a cap that applies to both of them together. This could look something like this:

1. Increase armor cap to 49650 (75%).
2. Block now increases armor by 16550 (25%) instead of being an additional multiplier in the calculation.
3. Excess armor reduces block cost by up to an additional 60%. So if you have 49650 armor from gear and buffs alone when you take a hit while blocking, you avoid all the secondary effects in typical block fashion, and this block costs 40% as much as it would normally have. This would scale with how far over the cap you are (so if you were missing 8275 armor before blocking, your block would cost 30% less than normally etc).
4. Adjust block costs to whatever is considered "balanced" for PvP with the new system.

The exact numbers are obviously up for discussion, but I think this would address all of the concerns raised.

This way people will have a choice of either going with high block cost reduction from the start to have something similar to the current meta, or stack armor for a more passive play style with weaker support capabilities, but in a way that is much better suited for beginners who are still learning the fights, allowing them to miss some heavy attacks without instantly dying. This approach would probably also make templars and NBs viable as tanks again.

This would also have the effect in PvP that no matter how much armor you stack, you will never really reach the cap, because the cap is so damn high, and penetration would become very powerful at making sure that your block costs the full amount. On top of that, penetration of just 3310 (5%) would effectively increase the damage on the just barely capped tank by 20% (going from 25% damage taken to 30%). With the numbers of penetration that are achievable, this could be a devastating counter play to PvP tanks (16550 would entirely negate the effect from blocking, potentially doubling the damage on the tank).

Problem with PVE is not the mitigation but the one shots. Certain attacks one shot a tank in max mitigation if they dont block said attack. There needs to be a complete rehaul of boss attacks too.

With 75% mitigation those one shoots will not be one shoots. You missed the entire point of my suggestion. Blocking will be just as powerful as it is now, but with my suggestion there would be a way to substitute blocking with armor, without it getting out of hand in a PvP setting.

There are certain mechanics that will one shot you if you don't block. Doesn't matter how much HP or armor you have. It is designed to be that way. Some of those mechanics take 60-70% of the tank HP even through block mitigation.

You still missed the point of my suggestion. I'm not trying to make tanking so OP that nothing can kill you, I want the dangerous attacks to remain as dangerous as they are now, I just want to bring more build diversity, and nerf tanks in PvP without it affecting PvE. Read my original suggestion again before you reply, because what you say has nothing to do with my suggestion.

xaraan · January 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

I think the era of the support tank might be going the way of the dodo. ZOS has been, for a long time, trying to shy tanks away from secondary supports sets that focus on buffing/debuffing DPS numbers through straight up nerfs in an attempt to force tanks into more selfish gear.

I think this has fewer implications for tanking than it does for endgame DPS, damage boosters that are typically provided by tanks are going to be harder to actually maintain.

This is right on the money. You can tell by the way they create sets aimed at tanks vs. healers - I mean, Alkosh isn't a tanking set, it's a dps set and became the go-to tanking set for a long time - zos knows this, they know what people want out of tanks and they aren't giving it.

Instead we get a set that's about doing a heavy attack and getting even more resources back while healers get a set aimed at giving them buff uptimes. (the heavy attack set is funny b/c half of their fights don't even give you much time to squeeze in a heavy attack and if you fail in half of those, you die from a one shot). Why tanks have been relegated to taunt monkeys and not allowed to be full support is really making the only role I love in the game unappealing. I enjoyed doing much more for my team than stab boss, hold block and do heavy attack so I keep rinse and repeat.

I've said this a million times already I know, but if ZoS had rolled out all the changes to tanking/heavy armor/shields that they have since Morrowind in one patch, the community would be up-in-arms about it, but doing it patch by patch, they are slowly ruining it while people argue about how bad a change really is and if they can deal with it.

Nolic1 · January 2018

xaraan wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I think the era of the support tank might be going the way of the dodo. ZOS has been, for a long time, trying to shy tanks away from secondary supports sets that focus on buffing/debuffing DPS numbers through straight up nerfs in an attempt to force tanks into more selfish gear.

I think this has fewer implications for tanking than it does for endgame DPS, damage boosters that are typically provided by tanks are going to be harder to actually maintain.

This is right on the money. You can tell by the way they create sets aimed at tanks vs. healers - I mean, Alkosh isn't a tanking set, it's a dps set and became the go-to tanking set for a long time - zos knows this, they know what people want out of tanks and they aren't giving it.

Instead we get a set that's about doing a heavy attack and getting even more resources back while healers get a set aimed at giving them buff uptimes. (the heavy attack set is funny b/c half of their fights don't even give you much time to squeeze in a heavy attack and if you fail in half of those, you die from a one shot). Why tanks have been relegated to taunt monkeys and not allowed to be full support is really making the only role I love in the game unappealing. I enjoyed doing much more for my team than stab boss, hold block and do heavy attack so I keep rinse and repeat.

I've said this a million times already I know, but if ZoS had rolled out all the changes to tanking/heavy armor/shields that they have since Morrowind in one patch, the community would be up-in-arms about it, but doing it patch by patch, they are slowly ruining it while people argue about how bad a change really is and if they can deal with it.

The devs I will say have been doing some good with a lot of the changes they have made by allowing more options to be more effective in many ways but it is a direct effect on the meta tanking and it could or could not be that the did not intend tanks to be that way. But I can not say for sure cause I do not know what there intended set ups are we as player are just given tools to use to make the builds and use what we feel is the best options and that right now and for over a year has mostly been meta so I am sure they are trying to open more options up with most of the changes.

f047ys3v3n · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I do not see these changes to block cost being anything different than on Live server in terms of sustain, as long as you are heavy attacking you should be fine. Do not forget about when heavy attacking an offbalanced enemy you restore double the resources which you can do every 20 seconds.

There are also more than just 2 synergies that you can use. And maybe groups might be setting up for that now, that would be a nice change of pace instead of just throwing all of your points into penetration CP.

@Nifty2g That is correct except one thing . Heavy attacks cost time which is used for keeping buff/debuffs with higher uptime . I honestly have no idea how I am going to fit heavy attacks while keeping taunt , heroic slash , mountain blessing , blockade and engulfing flames uptime while using balance to keep my magicka up .

You really do not need to use blockade honestly, if you are heavy attacking you can keep crusher up just fine doing that. Heavy attacking does not take long at all, you shouldn't be losing downtimes.

Sustaining won't be that difficult if you roll the appropriate race and class for it, and we are end game players, running what is best in slot should not be an issue for anyone.

I agree these are straight nerfs and we keep getting tank nerfs because of PvP which is ridiculous but these nerfs aren't the end of the world, I kinda like these ones as it's going to make tanking a little harder.

I disagree with one point.

Tanks are getting nerfs not only because of PVP, rather also because they are capable of virtually if not entirely abandoning "tanking" sets for damage sets designed to boost group performance.

PVP is what people are whining about, but "tanks" running destro dps skills back bar is a microcosm of how far tanking has shifted.

Tanks providing group utility has been around for years that at this point I'd be surprised if the developers say themselves they do not like this and want to go a different route. I don't believe that is the case here.
I mean this with no offense at all, running destro dps skills on back bar is just a lazy/smart way of getting high crusher uptimes. There are other ways of doing it which will become more universally used this coming update.
Using heavy attacks as a tank gives the group more support if you are using Torugs with infused crusher because even trying to spam skills to keep crusher up 100% in current patch will drain your stamina.

Yeah, I dont get why they keep acting like tanks shouldn't do group support.

They've pushed them into that roll for ages, I dont get what they want. Much like the skill advisor, it shows the fundemental disconnect that the devs have with what the players want and need from game balance. And the only way it'll stop is if the problem people step down.

They only thing I can figure in general is that ZOS policy is to nerf whatever people are doing and buff whatever they are not. I think that they think this is the real soul of what balance is. In reality it dosn't get you any closer to balance so much as changes the entire meta in rather unpredictable and large lurches.

I don't think it is so much that they don't think tanks should do support as they nerfed what people were doing and that was the accidental result.

rustic_potato · January 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I have a suggestion that might be worth considering, and would create more build diversity among tanks: make block and armor mitigation additive and enforce a cap that applies to both of them together. This could look something like this:

1. Increase armor cap to 49650 (75%).
2. Block now increases armor by 16550 (25%) instead of being an additional multiplier in the calculation.
3. Excess armor reduces block cost by up to an additional 60%. So if you have 49650 armor from gear and buffs alone when you take a hit while blocking, you avoid all the secondary effects in typical block fashion, and this block costs 40% as much as it would normally have. This would scale with how far over the cap you are (so if you were missing 8275 armor before blocking, your block would cost 30% less than normally etc).
4. Adjust block costs to whatever is considered "balanced" for PvP with the new system.

The exact numbers are obviously up for discussion, but I think this would address all of the concerns raised.

This way people will have a choice of either going with high block cost reduction from the start to have something similar to the current meta, or stack armor for a more passive play style with weaker support capabilities, but in a way that is much better suited for beginners who are still learning the fights, allowing them to miss some heavy attacks without instantly dying. This approach would probably also make templars and NBs viable as tanks again.

This would also have the effect in PvP that no matter how much armor you stack, you will never really reach the cap, because the cap is so damn high, and penetration would become very powerful at making sure that your block costs the full amount. On top of that, penetration of just 3310 (5%) would effectively increase the damage on the just barely capped tank by 20% (going from 25% damage taken to 30%). With the numbers of penetration that are achievable, this could be a devastating counter play to PvP tanks (16550 would entirely negate the effect from blocking, potentially doubling the damage on the tank).

Problem with PVE is not the mitigation but the one shots. Certain attacks one shot a tank in max mitigation if they dont block said attack. There needs to be a complete rehaul of boss attacks too.

With 75% mitigation those one shoots will not be one shoots. You missed the entire point of my suggestion. Blocking will be just as powerful as it is now, but with my suggestion there would be a way to substitute blocking with armor, without it getting out of hand in a PvP setting.

There are certain mechanics that will one shot you if you don't block. Doesn't matter how much HP or armor you have. It is designed to be that way. Some of those mechanics take 60-70% of the tank HP even through block mitigation.

You still missed the point of my suggestion. I'm not trying to make tanking so OP that nothing can kill you, I want the dangerous attacks to remain as dangerous as they are now, I just want to bring more build diversity, and nerf tanks in PvP without it affecting PvE. Read my original suggestion again before you reply, because what you say has nothing to do with my suggestion.

The problem lies with block giving too much mitigation. If mitigation is completely removed from block and added to tanking bonuses like minor and major aegis while making block as a counter to stuns, one shots and knockbacks we will be looking at a different style of gameplay.

It will be counter intuitive to permablock as it only drains resources on attacks not applying status effects and tanks can heavy attack without the fear of being instagibbed by say 4 axes attacking at the same time.

Since the mitigation is built into PVE bonuses PVP tanks dont get ridiculously strong either.

Toc de Malsvi · January 2018

I would like to see a fatigue mechanic added to the tanking play-style to discourage perma-blocking. For instance:

Fatigue:
"After holding block for 6-7 seconds block costs increase by 50%, stacking every second beyond 6-7 seconds up to 4 stacks. 2 second debuff, stacks drop after releasing block for 2 seconds."

Something along those lines, pushing PVE and PVP tanking into more strategic blocking.

Additionally I would like to see some more resource return built into the S&B line. One of the distinct advantages that DK's have when it comes to tanking is a variety of ways to restore stamina without ever having to drop block. This should be more available to all classes to encourage more variety in tanking. This would align very will with the skill Defensive Posture, possibly even replacing the Defensive Stance morph.

xaraan · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I have a suggestion that might be worth considering, and would create more build diversity among tanks: make block and armor mitigation additive and enforce a cap that applies to both of them together. This could look something like this:

1. Increase armor cap to 49650 (75%).
2. Block now increases armor by 16550 (25%) instead of being an additional multiplier in the calculation.
3. Excess armor reduces block cost by up to an additional 60%. So if you have 49650 armor from gear and buffs alone when you take a hit while blocking, you avoid all the secondary effects in typical block fashion, and this block costs 40% as much as it would normally have. This would scale with how far over the cap you are (so if you were missing 8275 armor before blocking, your block would cost 30% less than normally etc).
4. Adjust block costs to whatever is considered "balanced" for PvP with the new system.

The exact numbers are obviously up for discussion, but I think this would address all of the concerns raised.

This way people will have a choice of either going with high block cost reduction from the start to have something similar to the current meta, or stack armor for a more passive play style with weaker support capabilities, but in a way that is much better suited for beginners who are still learning the fights, allowing them to miss some heavy attacks without instantly dying. This approach would probably also make templars and NBs viable as tanks again.

This would also have the effect in PvP that no matter how much armor you stack, you will never really reach the cap, because the cap is so damn high, and penetration would become very powerful at making sure that your block costs the full amount. On top of that, penetration of just 3310 (5%) would effectively increase the damage on the just barely capped tank by 20% (going from 25% damage taken to 30%). With the numbers of penetration that are achievable, this could be a devastating counter play to PvP tanks (16550 would entirely negate the effect from blocking, potentially doubling the damage on the tank).

Problem with PVE is not the mitigation but the one shots. Certain attacks one shot a tank in max mitigation if they dont block said attack. There needs to be a complete rehaul of boss attacks too.

With 75% mitigation those one shoots will not be one shoots. You missed the entire point of my suggestion. Blocking will be just as powerful as it is now, but with my suggestion there would be a way to substitute blocking with armor, without it getting out of hand in a PvP setting.

There are certain mechanics that will one shot you if you don't block. Doesn't matter how much HP or armor you have. It is designed to be that way. Some of those mechanics take 60-70% of the tank HP even through block mitigation.

You still missed the point of my suggestion. I'm not trying to make tanking so OP that nothing can kill you, I want the dangerous attacks to remain as dangerous as they are now, I just want to bring more build diversity, and nerf tanks in PvP without it affecting PvE. Read my original suggestion again before you reply, because what you say has nothing to do with my suggestion.

The problem lies with block giving too much mitigation. If mitigation is completely removed from block and added to tanking bonuses like minor and major aegis while making block as a counter to stuns, one shots and knockbacks we will be looking at a different style of gameplay.

It will be counter intuitive to permablock as it only drains resources on attacks not applying status effects and tanks can heavy attack without the fear of being instagibbed by say 4 axes attacking at the same time.

Since the mitigation is built into PVE bonuses PVP tanks dont get ridiculously strong either.

Interesting concept (better than the next posters idea of making block cost even worse - someone that doens't pve and is only worried about pvp it seems).

I have been testing by taking some block cost off jewelry to a point and seeing what it will be like as we've done vtrials and harder vet dungeons the past week or so and in some situations it's almost impossible to keep your resources decent - in other situations its not horrible, but still requires more attention that I think it should in those instances.

They are royally messing up pve tanking to try and stop perma blocking in pvp (which isn't even as big a problem as most make it sound - I've pvp'd a lot and it's not that crazy that it needs a mega nerf like this).

The biggest problem too is that the feedback they are getting from pvpers - 95% of them are zergling and not great players tbh and don't know what they are talking about to give good feedback sorry to say. And some of the top pve guilds giving feedback are going to give slanted views b/c after tanking with various groups I can tell you, running hard content with an awesome group is super easy, so if you are the best trial guild in the game, tanking for them is really easy compared to tanking for a struggling group and you wont' see the test on your abilities the way you will with that struggling group. The best guilds in the game will see little effect from some of this and say it's not that bad, the players that can't handle it before aren't going to bother now and those in the middle are going to get stomped on by the change. And in the end, pvp won't be hurt as much as people want b/c those that think blocking is broken now in pvp are way off.

Toc de Malsvi · January 2018

I PVE as much as I PVP. PVE tanking is boring, players don't want to tank. Not because its hard, rather because its boring. For much of the content you can tape your block button down with no issues whatsoever.

Lazy PVE players that don't want to change doesn't improve the dynamics of tanking. It doesn't encourage more players to tank. Outside of trying to provide max support, tanking is by and large a joke. It is easy, boring, and almost thoughtless.

The tanking meta's have emerged because maintaining block and mitigation is far to easy. There is no real active mitigation. Perma blocking has evolved "block" into functioning the same as the passive stat boosts of early WoW game play. WoW adapted tanking and moved to a more active mitigation. Adding more mechanics and add control to make tanking more interactive and interesting.

ESO needs to evolve. Tanking needs to be more than perma blocking. Tanking needs to be more than wearing dps sets to try and buff the group.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I PVE as much as I PVP. PVE tanking is boring, players don't want to tank. Not because its hard, rather because its boring. For much of the content you can tape your block button down with no issues whatsoever.

Lazy PVE players that don't want to change doesn't improve the dynamics of tanking. It doesn't encourage more players to tank. Outside of trying to provide max support, tanking is by and large a joke. It is easy, boring, and almost thoughtless.

The tanking meta's have emerged because maintaining block and mitigation is far to easy. There is no real active mitigation. Perma blocking has evolved "block" into functioning the same as the passive stat boosts of early WoW game play. WoW adapted tanking and moved to a more active mitigation. Adding more mechanics and add control to make tanking more interactive and interesting.

ESO needs to evolve. Tanking needs to be more than perma blocking. Tanking needs to be more than wearing dps sets to try and buff the group.

Your first line shows you don't tank. Tanking isn't boring its the most dynamic role in the game. You're speaking as if all you do is block and taunt. You don't, a good tank is controlling the whole battle, positioning every enimey, trekking and taunting every high priority enemy (Deathstriker, Stone Braker, EarthGore, Trampler, etc), Stopping every mechanic they can, warning for every mechanic they can't, keeping ads off allies, keeping track of allies so they don't get hit with cleaves.

Sure not all content needs an End Game tank, but then if you don't need a tank for the content you've in, its time you moved up. Stop playing in the Kiddy pool

The population is low because if you screw up everyone knows it, making the slow or timid not try. And if you're of the right skills level to play a tank, a lot of them only tank with know groups because getting bad DPS means taking forever. Vet HRC, I spent 20 minutes soloing Yokeida Kai (top boss) 600k health because the other 5 couldn't stay up. Every time I paused from interupts to bite them, they would go down. So we waited on my 3k DPS to do its work instead of 30k x4

Toc de Malsvi · January 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I PVE as much as I PVP. PVE tanking is boring, players don't want to tank. Not because its hard, rather because its boring. For much of the content you can tape your block button down with no issues whatsoever.

Lazy PVE players that don't want to change doesn't improve the dynamics of tanking. It doesn't encourage more players to tank. Outside of trying to provide max support, tanking is by and large a joke. It is easy, boring, and almost thoughtless.

The tanking meta's have emerged because maintaining block and mitigation is far to easy. There is no real active mitigation. Perma blocking has evolved "block" into functioning the same as the passive stat boosts of early WoW game play. WoW adapted tanking and moved to a more active mitigation. Adding more mechanics and add control to make tanking more interactive and interesting.

ESO needs to evolve. Tanking needs to be more than perma blocking. Tanking needs to be more than wearing dps sets to try and buff the group.

Your first line shows you don't tank. Tanking isn't boring its the most dynamic role in the game. You're speaking as if all you do is block and taunt. You don't, a good tank is controlling the whole battle, positioning every enimey, trekking and taunting every high priority enemy (Deathstriker, Stone Braker, EarthGore, Trampler, etc), Stopping every mechanic they can, warning for every mechanic they can't, keeping ads off allies, keeping track of allies so they don't get hit with cleaves.

Sure not all content needs an End Game tank, but then if you don't need a tank for the content you've in, its time you moved up. Stop playing in the Kiddy pool

The population is low because if you screw up everyone knows it, making the slow or timid not try. And if you're of the right skills level to play a tank, a lot of them only tank with know groups because getting bad DPS means taking forever. Vet HRC, I spent 20 minutes soloing Yokeida Kai (top boss) 600k health because the other 5 couldn't stay up. Every time I paused from interupts to bite them, they would go down. So we waited on my 3k DPS to do its work instead of 30k x4

No, just no. Anecdotal delusions of grandeur stacked with false assumptions do nothing to support your claims. The inability of your group to perform has no bearing on the state of tanking. You begin with the claim that blocking and taunting is not everything, then list taunting as an additional task. You pretend that warning allies is somehow specific to tanking and restricted from other roles. In summation you exaggerate to a ridiculous degree.

The slow and timid are the majority of players trying to tank, or rather those new enough to the game to not know better. There are few good players that consistently tank, those that do complain of being stuck as tanks and never getting to DPS. There are even fewer good players that want to tank. Players are groomed to tank until they get sick of it and then they groom someone else and the cycle continues.

ZeroXFF · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I have a suggestion that might be worth considering, and would create more build diversity among tanks: make block and armor mitigation additive and enforce a cap that applies to both of them together. This could look something like this:

1. Increase armor cap to 49650 (75%).
2. Block now increases armor by 16550 (25%) instead of being an additional multiplier in the calculation.
3. Excess armor reduces block cost by up to an additional 60%. So if you have 49650 armor from gear and buffs alone when you take a hit while blocking, you avoid all the secondary effects in typical block fashion, and this block costs 40% as much as it would normally have. This would scale with how far over the cap you are (so if you were missing 8275 armor before blocking, your block would cost 30% less than normally etc).
4. Adjust block costs to whatever is considered "balanced" for PvP with the new system.

The exact numbers are obviously up for discussion, but I think this would address all of the concerns raised.

This way people will have a choice of either going with high block cost reduction from the start to have something similar to the current meta, or stack armor for a more passive play style with weaker support capabilities, but in a way that is much better suited for beginners who are still learning the fights, allowing them to miss some heavy attacks without instantly dying. This approach would probably also make templars and NBs viable as tanks again.

This would also have the effect in PvP that no matter how much armor you stack, you will never really reach the cap, because the cap is so damn high, and penetration would become very powerful at making sure that your block costs the full amount. On top of that, penetration of just 3310 (5%) would effectively increase the damage on the just barely capped tank by 20% (going from 25% damage taken to 30%). With the numbers of penetration that are achievable, this could be a devastating counter play to PvP tanks (16550 would entirely negate the effect from blocking, potentially doubling the damage on the tank).

Problem with PVE is not the mitigation but the one shots. Certain attacks one shot a tank in max mitigation if they dont block said attack. There needs to be a complete rehaul of boss attacks too.

With 75% mitigation those one shoots will not be one shoots. You missed the entire point of my suggestion. Blocking will be just as powerful as it is now, but with my suggestion there would be a way to substitute blocking with armor, without it getting out of hand in a PvP setting.

There are certain mechanics that will one shot you if you don't block. Doesn't matter how much HP or armor you have. It is designed to be that way. Some of those mechanics take 60-70% of the tank HP even through block mitigation.

You still missed the point of my suggestion. I'm not trying to make tanking so OP that nothing can kill you, I want the dangerous attacks to remain as dangerous as they are now, I just want to bring more build diversity, and nerf tanks in PvP without it affecting PvE. Read my original suggestion again before you reply, because what you say has nothing to do with my suggestion.

The problem lies with block giving too much mitigation. If mitigation is completely removed from block and added to tanking bonuses like minor and major aegis while making block as a counter to stuns, one shots and knockbacks we will be looking at a different style of gameplay.

It will be counter intuitive to permablock as it only drains resources on attacks not applying status effects and tanks can heavy attack without the fear of being instagibbed by say 4 axes attacking at the same time.

Since the mitigation is built into PVE bonuses PVP tanks dont get ridiculously strong either.

The big problem with your suggestion is that it will only be available to trial tanks (haven't seen the aegis buffs on any non-trial sets). There are plenty of tank 1-shots in dungeons too, even some in non-dlc ones. My suggestion would require minimal changes for players who are currently effective tanks while preserving consistency, whereas yours would require separating pvp and pve entirely and redesigning ALL tank sets.

aeowulf · January 2018

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

I’m so torn on this. Personally I hate the fact that tanking is a support role. That Tank set that just keep you alive and holding agro are looked down on. They are no go’s for trails and hard core content. At the same time it will hurt long running Guilds in the short term. Which can start a bad run away effect on PvE groups and numbers.

But I feel like this is what the Tanking role needed. Hear me out now. The great sets that keep you the guy that should never die alive are near useless to the team so no team likes them. Now look at this for the role of a new player. You take the sets that keep you up in a fight while holding agro but everyone bites your head off for running it. You are forced to take powers that do nothing for you in favor of DPS. After a few days or week which will you do learn the counter intuitive Tanking role or the straight forward DD role.

At it’s heart this is the problem that tanking is so counter intuitive that sets and powers that just keep you alive and holding agro is just not good enough. This is a bitter pill to swallow for player with no real time invested in the game.

I do believe for the problem of too few Tanks to be fixed. That Tanking needs to first be done with Tanking sets and powers. And that Tanking endgame needs to be doable for all five classes if they must Tank in different ways that’s not only fine it’s the best case scenario. Making Tanking more fun and less paint by numbers. Addressing the counter intuitive nature of Tanking is the only real first step, but it’s not the last.

Completely agree, especially the last paragraph.

@Toc de Malsvi, @Maura_Neysa - stop arguing, you're both right just looking at it from different situations! Some tanks play taunt/block, others play more dynamically. Which you prefer is your own choice. Which is the best way? Depends on the group and what you are doing.

From what I can tell the big issues re tanking are:

PVE vs PVP - The 'tank' role doesn't exist in PVP, it's just a role that's assigned to group finder/groups in PVE. In PVP they are just another build which could be heavy armour DPS or heavy armour highly survivable. The only issue i really see here is some people complaining they cannot kill them (that's fine, you've matched the counter to your build) when the actual issue is these heavy armour builds can also pump out serious damage. There should be no such thing as a perfect build, I always liked the rock-paper-scissors design, in this case tank-mage-rogue. Answer is probably something along the lines of doubling the damage bonuses on medium/light armour and reducing damage overall to counter this doubling. It would make those armour types significantly better in that armour's suggested role.

The gap between new and old tanks is some classes is too great. Unless you are in the top 1% of NB/sorc or templar tanks, you are going to find out you're not going to be tanking, simple. As a new player, you are not in this 1% so will quit before your potential can be realised. If you are lucky enough to be in that 1% there's a good chance you're switching role or class at some point because DK/Warden do it significantly better. By the time a new player realises this he may well of fallen in love with his toon and does not want to change, so can either swap roles to DPS/healer, struggle on, create a new toon or quit. The balance between the tank role for each class needs to be lessened - until then the tank pool is around 60% smaller than it could be. That resolves another beef - finder. DPS queue can be FAR too long, especially if you are queueing for yesterdays DLC.

FUN! It's not fun, anymore. For me this revolves as much around performance as well as other things. Spell effects for one - in trials (as DPS) when everyone starts nuking at the same time, particle effects go wild, FPS drops to lag-like conditions. Same can be seen at Alik'r dolmens and vMA, from about half way through in one sitting. I would not be suprised if this is the same issue as Cyrodiil people see, except it will be WAY worse there when scaled up. If a tank is hit with this and misses a boss mechanic, the trial will wipe. Thats why perma block is important currently. Look at sap tanks, these were effectively removed and were a ton of fun. Why was this decision made?

ZoS & listening. The likes of Gilliam, Deltia, Woeler have provided TONS of feedback historically. These guys have spent countless hours suggesting things to try to improve the game from the players perspective. Maybe ZoS listens, the feedback thread is there which is great. Also it's now been a year since NB/Templar tanks were effectively removed, classes were promised to be looked at, and it's not even on the horizon apart from a 'um' from Wrobel

ccfeeling · January 2018

Aeo, well speech!

Asardes · January 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I would like to see a fatigue mechanic added to the tanking play-style to discourage perma-blocking. For instance:

Fatigue:
"After holding block for 6-7 seconds block costs increase by 50%, stacking every second beyond 6-7 seconds up to 4 stacks. 2 second debuff, stacks drop after releasing block for 2 seconds."

Something along those lines, pushing PVE and PVP tanking into more strategic blocking.

Additionally I would like to see some more resource return built into the S&B line. One of the distinct advantages that DK's have when it comes to tanking is a variety of ways to restore stamina without ever having to drop block. This should be more available to all classes to encourage more variety in tanking. This would align very will with the skill Defensive Posture, possibly even replacing the Defensive Stance morph.

I proposed something similar a while back. Not sure if it will work in practice though, since block cost ticks every 0.25 seconds, so the cost will escalate rather quickly even when not perma-blocking.

Aedaryl · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

Hey everyone . Been doing some testing and ran one of the new dungeons with a DK tank in PTS today . Nerfs to PvE Tank sustain is quite high sadly . I am hoping this thread will help you understand what is going on and/or find a way around it .

BLOCK COST

Base block cost reduced to 1730 from 2160 .

Live patch block cost calculation :

Block Cost = (( 2160 * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) (1-Fortress)) - Shield-Play) * (1-Defensive Posture)

Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 88 .

And here is the new one =

Block Cost = (( 1730 - Shield-Play ) * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) ( 1-Fortress)) * (1-Defensive Posture)

Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 336 .

Now , the important part is , how effective Shield-Play is .

Let's do two different setups . First one with 3 Shield-Play enchants , second one with none .

First setup has 336 block cost while the second one has 520 . Looking at the difference , Shield-Play enchants doesn't seem to be as effective as before . 3 enchants give you a block cost reduction of 184 , which was 609 before the nerf . This brings up the question . Shield-Play enchants are worth it or not ?

I think the answer lies in what kind of fight you will be tanking in . For example , while tanking axes , Shield-Play enchants will win without a doubt while Magicka Recovery enchants perform better in fights where you don't block as much . I would say Stamina Cost Reduction could be useful as well but they get their share from diminishing returns too and there isn't really a lot of skills that cost stamina except Pierce Armor and Heroic Slash . To sum it up , I think we have to keep different jewelries with different enchants on them , for different fights .

While running one of the new dungeons , I tried 3 Magicka Recovery glyphs on jewelry . My build was Ebon/Alkosh/Lord Warden , 8 Sturdy , all tri-stat enchants as an Imperial . Classic trials tank build in other words . I was running Lord Mundus and Equilibrium . Being honest with you , I had issues whenever I permablocked . I had to drop my block and throw some heavy attacks time to time . You actually can keep permablocking with just Equilibrium and Igneous Shield spam , especially with the help of potions and Battle Roar passive , it is quite easy as long as you have a decent healer . Still , this doesn't matter because you will have to support your team with usage of other skills , costing time and resources .

SYNERGIES AND ALKOSH

Another nerf we need to talk about is Orb and Spear synergy . The cooldown increased to 30 seconds from 20 seconds . This is a straight nerf to Alkosh and sustain . I don't know why this happened , even though ZOS says it's because they are not triggering the Global Cooldown anymore . I don't see it being a good reason for such a strong nerf like this .

There are some more nerfs to Alkosh wearing tanks and Stamina DDs . Such as ;

Blood Funnel and Blood Feast (Blood Altar & morphs) : Increased the radius of the prompt to 28 meters.
Radiate (Inner Fire & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the taunted enemy.
Spawn Broodlings, Black Widows, and Arachnophobia (Trapping Webs & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the webbed enemy.

With these changes , I don't see Alkosh being as good as before even though you could use it on both tanks and still get high uptime . Only synergies you will be using are Conduit and Orbs/Shards as a tank , which makes Alkosh uptime really low when solo and worse compared to current live version .

With the new CP increase , DDs will get less and less benefits from damage oriented CPs . I think it is time for DDs to cover the lack of penetration with the extra CP and let tanks use some other support set .

It almost looks like ZOS wants to make Alkosh useless (both for tanks and melee DDs) but it is such a good set , I hope ZOS will revent some of these changes so we can keep using it more effectively .

OFF BALANCE AND LIGHTNING STAFF

Another important change is about Off Balance . I know a lot of tanks use Lightning Staff on their back bar for better Crusher uptime and some help with Off Balance . With the new block cost changes and Off Balance changes , I think Lightning Staff is not useful anymore . During my testing runs , I used a Frost Staff without the Tri-Focus passive . If you take that passive , your Magicka will be RIP while on back bar . It is really , really bad . I do not recommend it to anyone . Just don't take the passive and try to stay as low amount time as possible on your back bar .

I think keeping a Destro Staff on back bar is still a very good strat for better Crusher uptime , whether it be Frost , Lightning or Flame . Frost preferred obviously .

CLASS DIFFERENCE

Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .

FINAL WORDS

It almost looks like to me that ZOS wants tanks to drop support sets and wear sets that will give them self-sustain , tankiness etc. Tanking is and always been a support role in this game and should stay that way . These changes will make quite a lot of PvE tanks to stop playing their tank and play some other role . No offense to PvP players but these changes are hilarious just because some players fails to kill a tank in Cyrodiil . I think a lot of people on forums read that one thread where some guy kills 10 high-rank players (all of them had cost increase poisons) on his own as a permablock DK . What a joke ... Well guess what , there are already too few tanks in PvE and these changes will make some of them quit their role . I remember in Morrowind where ZOS introduced all the sustain nerfs and almost half of my raiding group quit the game because how boring it was to play . Now the same thing is happening to this small PvE tanking community that makes me wonder how many will continue . I know that this is only the first week of PTS and there will be changes but for now , this is what I think . I am hoping for better changes coming in the next several weeks .

Thanks for reading ,

Liofa

There is a lot of *** in your Final Words.

PvP Tanky damage meta doesn't use block cost glyphs. All the mates that are playing block based builds don't need block cost reduction glyph for sustain block.

You speak about things you don't know.

In fact the buff to base block cost will buff theze cancer build in PvP.

If ZoS think block cost glyph nerf will fix PvP, they are wrong.

Block cost glyphs always has been a PvE thing.

ZoS nerfed PvE tanking and buffed the PvP one. No one is happy trust me.

Asardes · January 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Hey everyone . Been doing some testing and ran one of the new dungeons with a DK tank in PTS today . Nerfs to PvE Tank sustain is quite high sadly . I am hoping this thread will help you understand what is going on and/or find a way around it .

BLOCK COST

Base block cost reduced to 1730 from 2160 .

Live patch block cost calculation :

Block Cost = (( 2160 * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) (1-Fortress)) - Shield-Play) * (1-Defensive Posture)

Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 88 .

And here is the new one =

Block Cost = (( 1730 - Shield-Play ) * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) ( 1-Fortress)) * (1-Defensive Posture)

Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 336 .

Now , the important part is , how effective Shield-Play is .

Let's do two different setups . First one with 3 Shield-Play enchants , second one with none .

First setup has 336 block cost while the second one has 520 . Looking at the difference , Shield-Play enchants doesn't seem to be as effective as before . 3 enchants give you a block cost reduction of 184 , which was 609 before the nerf . This brings up the question . Shield-Play enchants are worth it or not ?

I think the answer lies in what kind of fight you will be tanking in . For example , while tanking axes , Shield-Play enchants will win without a doubt while Magicka Recovery enchants perform better in fights where you don't block as much . I would say Stamina Cost Reduction could be useful as well but they get their share from diminishing returns too and there isn't really a lot of skills that cost stamina except Pierce Armor and Heroic Slash . To sum it up , I think we have to keep different jewelries with different enchants on them , for different fights .

While running one of the new dungeons , I tried 3 Magicka Recovery glyphs on jewelry . My build was Ebon/Alkosh/Lord Warden , 8 Sturdy , all tri-stat enchants as an Imperial . Classic trials tank build in other words . I was running Lord Mundus and Equilibrium . Being honest with you , I had issues whenever I permablocked . I had to drop my block and throw some heavy attacks time to time . You actually can keep permablocking with just Equilibrium and Igneous Shield spam , especially with the help of potions and Battle Roar passive , it is quite easy as long as you have a decent healer . Still , this doesn't matter because you will have to support your team with usage of other skills , costing time and resources .

SYNERGIES AND ALKOSH

Another nerf we need to talk about is Orb and Spear synergy . The cooldown increased to 30 seconds from 20 seconds . This is a straight nerf to Alkosh and sustain . I don't know why this happened , even though ZOS says it's because they are not triggering the Global Cooldown anymore . I don't see it being a good reason for such a strong nerf like this .

There are some more nerfs to Alkosh wearing tanks and Stamina DDs . Such as ;

Blood Funnel and Blood Feast (Blood Altar & morphs) : Increased the radius of the prompt to 28 meters.
Radiate (Inner Fire & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the taunted enemy.
Spawn Broodlings, Black Widows, and Arachnophobia (Trapping Webs & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the webbed enemy.

With these changes , I don't see Alkosh being as good as before even though you could use it on both tanks and still get high uptime . Only synergies you will be using are Conduit and Orbs/Shards as a tank , which makes Alkosh uptime really low when solo and worse compared to current live version .

With the new CP increase , DDs will get less and less benefits from damage oriented CPs . I think it is time for DDs to cover the lack of penetration with the extra CP and let tanks use some other support set .

It almost looks like ZOS wants to make Alkosh useless (both for tanks and melee DDs) but it is such a good set , I hope ZOS will revent some of these changes so we can keep using it more effectively .

OFF BALANCE AND LIGHTNING STAFF

Another important change is about Off Balance . I know a lot of tanks use Lightning Staff on their back bar for better Crusher uptime and some help with Off Balance . With the new block cost changes and Off Balance changes , I think Lightning Staff is not useful anymore . During my testing runs , I used a Frost Staff without the Tri-Focus passive . If you take that passive , your Magicka will be RIP while on back bar . It is really , really bad . I do not recommend it to anyone . Just don't take the passive and try to stay as low amount time as possible on your back bar .

I think keeping a Destro Staff on back bar is still a very good strat for better Crusher uptime , whether it be Frost , Lightning or Flame . Frost preferred obviously .

CLASS DIFFERENCE

Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .

FINAL WORDS

It almost looks like to me that ZOS wants tanks to drop support sets and wear sets that will give them self-sustain , tankiness etc. Tanking is and always been a support role in this game and should stay that way . These changes will make quite a lot of PvE tanks to stop playing their tank and play some other role . No offense to PvP players but these changes are hilarious just because some players fails to kill a tank in Cyrodiil . I think a lot of people on forums read that one thread where some guy kills 10 high-rank players (all of them had cost increase poisons) on his own as a permablock DK . What a joke ... Well guess what , there are already too few tanks in PvE and these changes will make some of them quit their role . I remember in Morrowind where ZOS introduced all the sustain nerfs and almost half of my raiding group quit the game because how boring it was to play . Now the same thing is happening to this small PvE tanking community that makes me wonder how many will continue . I know that this is only the first week of PTS and there will be changes but for now , this is what I think . I am hoping for better changes coming in the next several weeks .

Thanks for reading ,

Liofa

There is a lot of *** in your Final Words.

PvP Tanky damage meta doesn't use block cost glyphs. All the mates that are playing block based builds don't need block cost reduction glyph for sustain block.

You speak about things you don't know.

In fact the buff to base block cost will buff theze cancer build in PvP.

If ZoS think block cost glyph nerf will fix PvP, they are wrong.

Block cost glyphs always has been a PvE thing.

ZoS nerfed PvE tanking and buffed the PvP one. No one is happy trust me.

I agree with you but at the same time it's not civil to be rude to other players, especially experienced people giving otherwise valid information. The decrease in base block cost is a boon to people that don't perma-block, which is a good thing not only for PvP but for PvE as well since some hard dungeon & trial mechanics require everyone to block or get stunned & killed.

I don't consider myself an experienced PvP player, but I did dabble for a few weeks in Cyrodiil recently. It's pretty obvious to me that "tanking" in PvP can be done by almost any class, be it stamina or magicka, even otherwise damage focused builds, provided they have 1H+S on a bar. I've seen countless times inexperienced players beat on a "tank" that casts Mist Form, kites them around some boulders or a tree, then casts Spell Wall and does a devastating combo in those 7 seconds from behind the ultimate; some people are even dumb enough to mostly kill themselves with ranged spells reflected off that. The cost has been increased sufficiently, and the ultimate cannot be considered "broken" anymore. For some builds that lack mobility of big shields it's pretty much the only tool that allows them to survive the zerg and 1vX. So I think it's balanced right now to some degree and people dying to "tanks" in such situation need to heavily reconsider their play style.

Liofa · January 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

There is a lot of *** in your Final Words.

PvP Tanky damage meta doesn't use block cost glyphs. All the mates that are playing block based builds don't need block cost reduction glyph for sustain block.

You speak about things you don't know.

In fact the buff to base block cost will buff theze cancer build in PvP.

If ZoS think block cost glyph nerf will fix PvP, they are wrong.

Block cost glyphs always has been a PvE thing.

ZoS nerfed PvE tanking and buffed the PvP one. No one is happy trust me.

So , full block cost setup with 100 Shadow Ward + Fortress + 8 Sturdy + 3 Shield-Play enchants mean 95 Stamina cost in live server . If we do not use Shield-Play enchants , it goes up to 704 . So are you saying that you can sustain permablocking in PvP with 704 Stamina per block ? Block cost can be applied 4 times in a second . Being realistic here , you will be blocking at least 2 attacks per second which makes 1.4k Stamina every second against an average player , while using offensive and defensive skills and heals that also cost stamina . I think we are talking about different things when we say ''block builds'' . I am talking about those that can permablock against 20 potatos for 10 mins+ . What kind of block builds you are talking about exactly that can sustain permablock for long time without using Shield-Play enchants ?

Nolic1 · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

There is a lot of *** in your Final Words.

PvP Tanky damage meta doesn't use block cost glyphs. All the mates that are playing block based builds don't need block cost reduction glyph for sustain block.

You speak about things you don't know.

In fact the buff to base block cost will buff theze cancer build in PvP.

If ZoS think block cost glyph nerf will fix PvP, they are wrong.

Block cost glyphs always has been a PvE thing.

ZoS nerfed PvE tanking and buffed the PvP one. No one is happy trust me.

So , full block cost setup with 100 Shadow Ward + Fortress + 8 Sturdy + 3 Shield-Play enchants mean 95 Stamina cost in live server . If we do not use Shield-Play enchants , it goes up to 704 . So are you saying that you can sustain permablocking in PvP with 704 Stamina per block ? Block cost can be applied 4 times in a second . Being realistic here , you will be blocking at least 2 attacks per second which makes 1.4k Stamina every second against an average player , while using offensive and defensive skills and heals that also cost stamina . I think we are talking about different things when we say ''block builds'' . I am talking about those that can permablock against 20 potatos for 10 mins+ . What kind of block builds you are talking about exactly that can sustain permablock for long time without using Shield-Play enchants ?

I believe he means the PvE tank sense it is truly the only one that uses them.

Nolic1 · January 2018

Some of these changes show so many different results its not even funny its hard to lock down. With Shield play glyphs getting hit I switched out them and seen such a small impact on my block cost with everything else that after I changed to those with no sturdy I was about the same on stam cost its hard to decide which route is better to go and truth is ether one is good.

No offence but math on paper versus all the different damage types does not show anything other then what your base is in action is where you see the real results.

So onto the off balance changes after some testing I seen running a charged lightning staff or wise/Infal Mage sets to offer a much better up time of off balance then the normal way. I know not as effective as you think but over all more consistent in effect then a infused with shock.

The synergy changes seem the worst of them all over all cause this plays more on the effective resource management then anything and would almost be better to build into recovery this time around for roles then not use it at all.