Maintenance for the week of October 27:
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 27, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC)
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – October 29, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC) : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/684603
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – October 29, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – October 29, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 27, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC)
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – October 29, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC) : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/684603
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – October 29, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – October 29, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
General Consensus on Gap Closer Changes?
-
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭
Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/roots
I was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned
I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).
I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.
The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?
I could create a dozen of them right now since 2H ulti is the highest hitting single target ability in game as long as targets have any mitigation, so naturally it'd fit into any kind of a stealth gank build, or just instagib builds in general.
I'm not going to waste time looking up builds in youtube. Most do tend to gravitate towards the DBOS(or Incap)+Rev Slice combos rather than 2H ulti though.You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.
The only time I miss a point is when one doesn't exist, such as right now.
Rending Slashes slotted=DW is main bar
Rev Slice/DBOS (i.e. your entire burst combo)/Rally slotted=2H is off bar?
I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense.
I understand that I make no sense to you, I really do.
I'll just respond to you one final time.
Yes, of course you could make dozens of builds right now utilizing the 2H ulti. Just swap the ulti of a build?? My point was that you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
Rending Slashes slotted = DW is main bar [when you have Biting Jabs or Surprise Attack as other sources of dps]
Surprise Attack, Vigor, Rending Slashes, Ambush/Relentless Focus/Killer's Blade, Mass Hysteria, Incap. See how that would be a main bar with only 1 DW ability? You do, right? It works like that for Templar as well. Some sorcs even use DW as a main bar without even 1 DW ability, right???? You can see how that works, right? So I'm making sense now, right?
And yes, if you slot Rally and Executioner on your 2H bar to finish kills after a Leap or DBOS for example, it still is an offbar. It's subjective, though. If you want to believe the bar that you use only for buffs or for 2 seconds at a time trying to finish a low target, then be my guest. That's apparently the main point of misunderstanding between us. I call that an offbar, you call it a main bar. No point arguing that one further. The kind of S&B bar I have in mind thinking that is something like Puncture/Heroic Slash, Vigor, Reverb Bash, Invasion/Class Ability/Class ability, where 2h is only used offensively when going for an executioner if necessary.Edited by Yiko on January 13, 2018 6:11PM0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I imagine with nerfs to Defence that is the reasoning . Also they never could fix the unintended anchor point stun and macro slice aspect of gap closers .1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).
I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.
The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?
I could create a dozen of them right now since 2H ulti is the highest hitting single target ability in game as long as targets have any mitigation, so naturally it'd fit into any kind of a stealth gank build, or just instagib builds in general.
I'm not going to waste time looking up builds in youtube. Most do tend to gravitate towards the DBOS(or Incap)+Rev Slice combos rather than 2H ulti though.You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.
The only time I miss a point is when one doesn't exist, such as right now.
Rending Slashes slotted=DW is main bar
Rev Slice/DBOS (i.e. your entire burst combo)/Rally slotted=2H is off bar?
I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense.
I understand that I make no sense to you, I really do.
I'll just respond to you one final time.
Yes, of course you could make dozens of builds right now utilizing the 2H ulti. Just swap the ulti of a build?? My point was that you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
Just like I wouldn't have been able to link a strong destro/resto mag DK build until I actually went ahead & created one
Nor would I have been able to link a strong overload gank build until Blobs made one a couple weeks ago, just for example.
Most people just meld into the meta, doesn't mean alternatives don't exist.
Can you guess what the meta is at the moment, for stamina builds? 2H/S&B. That's right, 2H/S&B, not S&B/2H.Rending Slashes slotted = DW is main bar [when you have Biting Jabs or Surprise Attack as other sources of dps]
Surprise Attack, Vigor, Rending Slashes, Ambush/Relentless Focus/Killer's Blade, Mass Hysteria, Incap. See how that would be a main bar with only 1 DW ability? You do, right? It works like that for Templar as well. Some sorcs even use DW as a main bar without even 1 DW ability, right???? You can see how that works, right? So I'm making sense now, right?
To quote you:you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
To run DW main bar and no S&B is just suicide (2H off bar I assume, otherwise it's even more suicide) in PvP.
That's why most people don't do it.And yes, if you slot Rally and Executioner on your 2H bar to finish kills after a Leap or DBOS for example, it still is an offbar. It's subjective, though. If you want to believe the bar that you use only for buffs or for 2 seconds at a time trying to finish a low target, then be my guest. That's apparently the main point of misunderstanding between us. I call that an offbar, you call it a main bar. No point arguing that one further.
Everyone calls it main bar, except you. Because you have a hard time admitting you're wrong (or just [snip], not sure).
Go watch some build videos, pay attention to the words used when skill bars are described and come back.Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 6:24PM5 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).
I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.
The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?
I could create a dozen of them right now since 2H ulti is the highest hitting single target ability in game as long as targets have any mitigation, so naturally it'd fit into any kind of a stealth gank build, or just instagib builds in general.
I'm not going to waste time looking up builds in youtube. Most do tend to gravitate towards the DBOS(or Incap)+Rev Slice combos rather than 2H ulti though.You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.
The only time I miss a point is when one doesn't exist, such as right now.
Rending Slashes slotted=DW is main bar
Rev Slice/DBOS (i.e. your entire burst combo)/Rally slotted=2H is off bar?
I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense.
I understand that I make no sense to you, I really do.
I'll just respond to you one final time.
Yes, of course you could make dozens of builds right now utilizing the 2H ulti. Just swap the ulti of a build?? My point was that you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
Rending Slashes slotted = DW is main bar [when you have Biting Jabs or Surprise Attack as other sources of dps]
Surprise Attack, Vigor, Rending Slashes, Ambush/Relentless Focus/Killer's Blade, Mass Hysteria, Incap. See how that would be a main bar with only 1 DW ability? You do, right? It works like that for Templar as well. Some sorcs even use DW as a main bar without even 1 DW ability, right???? You can see how that works, right? So I'm making sense now, right?
And yes, if you slot Rally and Executioner on your 2H bar to finish kills after a Leap or DBOS for example, it still is an offbar. It's subjective, though. If you want to believe the bar that you use only for buffs or for 2 seconds at a time trying to finish a low target, then be my guest. That's apparently the main point of misunderstanding between us. I call that an offbar, you call it a main bar. No point arguing that one further. The kind of S&B bar I have in mind thinking that is something like Puncture/Heroic Slash, Vigor, Reverb Bash, Invasion/Class Ability/Class ability, where 2h is only used offensively when going for an executioner if necessary.
Just an off topic thing, but the 2h ult would be a lot more useful if the onslaught morph had reduced cost instead of a clunky reset mechanic that barely works. At its current state why slot it over dawnbreaker/leap/incapEdited by Ragnarock41 on January 13, 2018 6:26PM3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).
I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.
The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?
I could create a dozen of them right now since 2H ulti is the highest hitting single target ability in game as long as targets have any mitigation, so naturally it'd fit into any kind of a stealth gank build, or just instagib builds in general.
I'm not going to waste time looking up builds in youtube. Most do tend to gravitate towards the DBOS(or Incap)+Rev Slice combos rather than 2H ulti though.You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.
The only time I miss a point is when one doesn't exist, such as right now.
Rending Slashes slotted=DW is main bar
Rev Slice/DBOS (i.e. your entire burst combo)/Rally slotted=2H is off bar?
I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense.
I understand that I make no sense to you, I really do.
I'll just respond to you one final time.
Yes, of course you could make dozens of builds right now utilizing the 2H ulti. Just swap the ulti of a build?? My point was that you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
Rending Slashes slotted = DW is main bar [when you have Biting Jabs or Surprise Attack as other sources of dps]
Surprise Attack, Vigor, Rending Slashes, Ambush/Relentless Focus/Killer's Blade, Mass Hysteria, Incap. See how that would be a main bar with only 1 DW ability? You do, right? It works like that for Templar as well. Some sorcs even use DW as a main bar without even 1 DW ability, right???? You can see how that works, right? So I'm making sense now, right?
And yes, if you slot Rally and Executioner on your 2H bar to finish kills after a Leap or DBOS for example, it still is an offbar. It's subjective, though. If you want to believe the bar that you use only for buffs or for 2 seconds at a time trying to finish a low target, then be my guest. That's apparently the main point of misunderstanding between us. I call that an offbar, you call it a main bar. No point arguing that one further. The kind of S&B bar I have in mind thinking that is something like Puncture/Heroic Slash, Vigor, Reverb Bash, Invasion/Class Ability/Class ability, where 2h is only used offensively when going for an executioner if necessary.
Just an off topic thing, but the 2h ult would be a lot more useful if the onslaught morph had reduced cost instead of a clunky reset mechanic that barely works. At its current state why slot it over dawnbreaker/leap/incap
Dawnbreaker/Leap/Incap are usually preferred because they're cheaper/come with a CC & 2 of them are AoE.
To make effective use of 2H ulti you'd need some other strong skill to provide the CC (or get it from sneak attack) & even so it'd only be deadly against one target (where as Shalks->DBOS+Rev Slice as Warden can wipe multiple people at the same time) - that leaves 2H ulti kind of a "gank ultimate" only (and can be very effective at that, much more so than Incap, Leap, DBOS etc).
There was even a time when it was used in magblade gank builds (since it'd also ignore all spell resistance), back when Stygian buffed it & other ultimates by 20%.
So it's certainly usable - can't say the same about the DW ulti for example.Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 6:32PM0 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389707/prizefighting-stamplar-pvp#latest
Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).
I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.
The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?
I could create a dozen of them right now since 2H ulti is the highest hitting single target ability in game as long as targets have any mitigation, so naturally it'd fit into any kind of a stealth gank build, or just instagib builds in general.
I'm not going to waste time looking up builds in youtube. Most do tend to gravitate towards the DBOS(or Incap)+Rev Slice combos rather than 2H ulti though.You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.
The only time I miss a point is when one doesn't exist, such as right now.
Rending Slashes slotted=DW is main bar
Rev Slice/DBOS (i.e. your entire burst combo)/Rally slotted=2H is off bar?
I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense.
I understand that I make no sense to you, I really do.
I'll just respond to you one final time.
Yes, of course you could make dozens of builds right now utilizing the 2H ulti. Just swap the ulti of a build?? My point was that you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
Just like I wouldn't have been able to link a strong destro/resto mag DK build until I actually went ahead & created one
Nor would I have been able to link a strong overload gank build until Blobs made one a couple weeks ago.
Most people just meld into the meta, doesn't mean alternatives don't exist.
Can you guess what the meta is at the moment, for stamina builds? 2H/S&B. That's right, 2H/S&B, not S&B/2H.Rending Slashes slotted = DW is main bar [when you have Biting Jabs or Surprise Attack as other sources of dps]
Surprise Attack, Vigor, Rending Slashes, Ambush/Relentless Focus/Killer's Blade, Mass Hysteria, Incap. See how that would be a main bar with only 1 DW ability? You do, right? It works like that for Templar as well. Some sorcs even use DW as a main bar without even 1 DW ability, right???? You can see how that works, right? So I'm making sense now, right?
To quote you:you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
To run DW main bar (2H off bar I assume) and no S&B is just suicide in PvP. That's why most people don't do it.And yes, if you slot Rally and Executioner on your 2H bar to finish kills after a Leap or DBOS for example, it still is an offbar. It's subjective, though. If you want to believe the bar that you use only for buffs or for 2 seconds at a time trying to finish a low target, then be my guest. That's apparently the main point of misunderstanding between us. I call that an offbar, you call it a main bar. No point arguing that one further.
Everyone calls it main bar, except you. Because you have a hard time admitting you're wrong (or just [snip], not sure).
Go watch some build videos, pay attention to the words used when skill bars are described and come back.
From yesterday.
Moontan streams DW/2h NB. Here's a vod from 2 days ago: https://twitch.tv/videos/217626961
No comment on the DW magicka sorcs that slot no DW abilities but use it as a main bar? None at all?
Isn't the strongest dueling build on EU atm a DW NB? Or it was recently IIRC.
Any content creators out there that regularly use 2H ulti? When's the last time you saw 2h ulti even used? Why is this even being argued? Just slot incap/dawnbreaker, or leap, and you'll be better off.. unless you're playing some cheesy gank build.
If most people think that the bar you spend < 20% of your time on is the main bar, that's fine with me. Duly noted. I will concede that point.
Edited by Yiko on January 13, 2018 6:43PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389707/prizefighting-stamplar-pvp#latest
Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).
I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.
The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?
I could create a dozen of them right now since 2H ulti is the highest hitting single target ability in game as long as targets have any mitigation, so naturally it'd fit into any kind of a stealth gank build, or just instagib builds in general.
I'm not going to waste time looking up builds in youtube. Most do tend to gravitate towards the DBOS(or Incap)+Rev Slice combos rather than 2H ulti though.You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.
The only time I miss a point is when one doesn't exist, such as right now.
Rending Slashes slotted=DW is main bar
Rev Slice/DBOS (i.e. your entire burst combo)/Rally slotted=2H is off bar?
I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense.
I understand that I make no sense to you, I really do.
I'll just respond to you one final time.
Yes, of course you could make dozens of builds right now utilizing the 2H ulti. Just swap the ulti of a build?? My point was that you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
Just like I wouldn't have been able to link a strong destro/resto mag DK build until I actually went ahead & created one
Nor would I have been able to link a strong overload gank build until Blobs made one a couple weeks ago.
Most people just meld into the meta, doesn't mean alternatives don't exist.
Can you guess what the meta is at the moment, for stamina builds? 2H/S&B. That's right, 2H/S&B, not S&B/2H.Rending Slashes slotted = DW is main bar [when you have Biting Jabs or Surprise Attack as other sources of dps]
Surprise Attack, Vigor, Rending Slashes, Ambush/Relentless Focus/Killer's Blade, Mass Hysteria, Incap. See how that would be a main bar with only 1 DW ability? You do, right? It works like that for Templar as well. Some sorcs even use DW as a main bar without even 1 DW ability, right???? You can see how that works, right? So I'm making sense now, right?
To quote you:you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
To run DW main bar (2H off bar I assume) and no S&B is just suicide in PvP. That's why most people don't do it.And yes, if you slot Rally and Executioner on your 2H bar to finish kills after a Leap or DBOS for example, it still is an offbar. It's subjective, though. If you want to believe the bar that you use only for buffs or for 2 seconds at a time trying to finish a low target, then be my guest. That's apparently the main point of misunderstanding between us. I call that an offbar, you call it a main bar. No point arguing that one further.
Everyone calls it main bar, except you. Because you have a hard time admitting you're wrong (or just [snip], not sure).
Go watch some build videos, pay attention to the words used when skill bars are described and come back.
From yesterday.
Moontan streams DW/2h NB. Here's a vod from 2 days ago: https://twitch.tv/videos/217626961
No comment on the DW magicka sorcs that slot no DW abilities but use it as a main bar? None at all?
Isn't the strongest dueling build on EU atm a DW NB? Or it was recently IIRC.
Any content creators out there that regularly use 2H ulti? When's the last time you saw 2h ulti even used? Why is this even being argued? Just slot incap/dawnbreaker, or leap, and you'll be better off.. unless you're playing some cheesy gank build.
If most people think that the bar you spend < 20% of your time on is the main bar, that's fine with me. Duly noted. I will concede that point.
Cool, you've found what I call "unicorn builds", because they're rare af.
What do you think I see more often in Cyrodiil, Moontan's DW/2H stamblades or Kodi's 2H/S&B builds?
I don't mean to offend anyone, but some things just become meta and others don't (has very much to do with how many viewers/subscribers a youtuber/streamer has).
Nothing to do with build viability (I myself only play DW/Bow & Bow/Bow builds on stamblade).
And most magicka sorcs (thought this was about 2H & gap closers) aren't using DW lol.
The most prominent mag sorc (and magblade for that matter) meta is Master Inferno & Flame Clench spam & different variations of that. There are a few DW overload gank builds around now after Blobs made that build of his a couple weeks ago, but I wouldn't call them meta.
Maybe I'll make a 2H ulti gank build now that you mentioned there aren't many youtubers/streamers doing that, but don't come here & say 2H is irrelevant when it's likely the most commonly slotted main bar weapon in the game.Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 7:33PM3 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389707/prizefighting-stamplar-pvp#latest
Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).
I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.
The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?
I could create a dozen of them right now since 2H ulti is the highest hitting single target ability in game as long as targets have any mitigation, so naturally it'd fit into any kind of a stealth gank build, or just instagib builds in general.
I'm not going to waste time looking up builds in youtube. Most do tend to gravitate towards the DBOS(or Incap)+Rev Slice combos rather than 2H ulti though.You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.
The only time I miss a point is when one doesn't exist, such as right now.
Rending Slashes slotted=DW is main bar
Rev Slice/DBOS (i.e. your entire burst combo)/Rally slotted=2H is off bar?
I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense.
I understand that I make no sense to you, I really do.
I'll just respond to you one final time.
Yes, of course you could make dozens of builds right now utilizing the 2H ulti. Just swap the ulti of a build?? My point was that you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
Just like I wouldn't have been able to link a strong destro/resto mag DK build until I actually went ahead & created one
Nor would I have been able to link a strong overload gank build until Blobs made one a couple weeks ago.
Most people just meld into the meta, doesn't mean alternatives don't exist.
Can you guess what the meta is at the moment, for stamina builds? 2H/S&B. That's right, 2H/S&B, not S&B/2H.Rending Slashes slotted = DW is main bar [when you have Biting Jabs or Surprise Attack as other sources of dps]
Surprise Attack, Vigor, Rending Slashes, Ambush/Relentless Focus/Killer's Blade, Mass Hysteria, Incap. See how that would be a main bar with only 1 DW ability? You do, right? It works like that for Templar as well. Some sorcs even use DW as a main bar without even 1 DW ability, right???? You can see how that works, right? So I'm making sense now, right?
To quote you:you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
To run DW main bar (2H off bar I assume) and no S&B is just suicide in PvP. That's why most people don't do it.And yes, if you slot Rally and Executioner on your 2H bar to finish kills after a Leap or DBOS for example, it still is an offbar. It's subjective, though. If you want to believe the bar that you use only for buffs or for 2 seconds at a time trying to finish a low target, then be my guest. That's apparently the main point of misunderstanding between us. I call that an offbar, you call it a main bar. No point arguing that one further.
Everyone calls it main bar, except you. Because you have a hard time admitting you're wrong (or just [snip], not sure).
Go watch some build videos, pay attention to the words used when skill bars are described and come back.
From yesterday.
Moontan streams DW/2h NB. Here's a vod from 2 days ago: https://twitch.tv/videos/217626961
No comment on the DW magicka sorcs that slot no DW abilities but use it as a main bar? None at all?
Isn't the strongest dueling build on EU atm a DW NB? Or it was recently IIRC.
Any content creators out there that regularly use 2H ulti? When's the last time you saw 2h ulti even used? Why is this even being argued? Just slot incap/dawnbreaker, or leap, and you'll be better off.. unless you're playing some cheesy gank build.
If most people think that the bar you spend < 20% of your time on is the main bar, that's fine with me. Duly noted. I will concede that point.
Why would I want to run an ultimate that is more expensive, single target only,dodgeable(even shuffle can dodge it btw), blockable, does ''okay'' damage, has a reset mechanic that most of the times doesnt work...
I don't know what kind of dream world people are living in, but in an actual build 2h ult has no place over class ults or even dawnbreaker.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389707/prizefighting-stamplar-pvp#latest
Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).
I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.
The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?
I could create a dozen of them right now since 2H ulti is the highest hitting single target ability in game as long as targets have any mitigation, so naturally it'd fit into any kind of a stealth gank build, or just instagib builds in general.
I'm not going to waste time looking up builds in youtube. Most do tend to gravitate towards the DBOS(or Incap)+Rev Slice combos rather than 2H ulti though.You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.
The only time I miss a point is when one doesn't exist, such as right now.
Rending Slashes slotted=DW is main bar
Rev Slice/DBOS (i.e. your entire burst combo)/Rally slotted=2H is off bar?
I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense.
I understand that I make no sense to you, I really do.
I'll just respond to you one final time.
Yes, of course you could make dozens of builds right now utilizing the 2H ulti. Just swap the ulti of a build?? My point was that you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
Just like I wouldn't have been able to link a strong destro/resto mag DK build until I actually went ahead & created one
Nor would I have been able to link a strong overload gank build until Blobs made one a couple weeks ago.
Most people just meld into the meta, doesn't mean alternatives don't exist.
Can you guess what the meta is at the moment, for stamina builds? 2H/S&B. That's right, 2H/S&B, not S&B/2H.Rending Slashes slotted = DW is main bar [when you have Biting Jabs or Surprise Attack as other sources of dps]
Surprise Attack, Vigor, Rending Slashes, Ambush/Relentless Focus/Killer's Blade, Mass Hysteria, Incap. See how that would be a main bar with only 1 DW ability? You do, right? It works like that for Templar as well. Some sorcs even use DW as a main bar without even 1 DW ability, right???? You can see how that works, right? So I'm making sense now, right?
To quote you:you wouldn't be able to link me a build, since essentially no one uses it.
To run DW main bar (2H off bar I assume) and no S&B is just suicide in PvP. That's why most people don't do it.And yes, if you slot Rally and Executioner on your 2H bar to finish kills after a Leap or DBOS for example, it still is an offbar. It's subjective, though. If you want to believe the bar that you use only for buffs or for 2 seconds at a time trying to finish a low target, then be my guest. That's apparently the main point of misunderstanding between us. I call that an offbar, you call it a main bar. No point arguing that one further.
Everyone calls it main bar, except you. Because you have a hard time admitting you're wrong (or just [snip], not sure).
Go watch some build videos, pay attention to the words used when skill bars are described and come back.
From yesterday.
Moontan streams DW/2h NB. Here's a vod from 2 days ago: https://twitch.tv/videos/217626961
No comment on the DW magicka sorcs that slot no DW abilities but use it as a main bar? None at all?
Isn't the strongest dueling build on EU atm a DW NB? Or it was recently IIRC.
Any content creators out there that regularly use 2H ulti? When's the last time you saw 2h ulti even used? Why is this even being argued? Just slot incap/dawnbreaker, or leap, and you'll be better off.. unless you're playing some cheesy gank build.
If most people think that the bar you spend < 20% of your time on is the main bar, that's fine with me. Duly noted. I will concede that point.
Why would I want to run an ultimate that is more expensive, single target only,dodgeable(even shuffle can dodge it btw), blockable, does ''okay'' damage, has a reset mechanic that most of the times doesnt work...
I don't know what kind of dream world people are living in, but in an actual build 2h ult has no place over class ults or even dawnbreaker.
This is how you use it:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/345254/rip-stygian-x-magblade-1-shot-compilations-smackattack-2-0
Being dodgeable/single target hardly matters there.
Obviously the magicka version doesn't work anymore, but you can still build as much dmg as possible as stam build & use it for ganking.
For instance, after Miats is gone you can probably even land Wrecking Blow->2H ulti from stealth (->Rev Slice if target is still alive). Gear would be something like 5x Spriggan 5x Sword-Singer (or Archer's Mind) 1x Kra'gh.
I'll calculate the approximate burst for that later today & compare to overload gank etc, but I've a feeling it's very competitive.Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 7:45PM0 -
Calboy✭✭✭✭✭@DDuke I'm guessing chains is untouched as zos probably have stats telling them how little it is used. It is strong but most mdk builds struggle to find space on their bars for it. I'm not saying there arnt strong builds out there using it but most people probably prioritise other skills that they find more important in mdk combat. Also like someone else mentioned, you don't need to go them when they are coming to you, which is more often than not a bad idea to follow a mdk into his trap.
Also the slowest class in the game with strong dots and no execute probably deserves to have the strongest gap closer imp of course.Edited by Calboy on January 13, 2018 7:55PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke I'm guessing chains is untouched as zos probably have stats telling them how little it is used. It is strong but most mdk builds struggle to find space on their bars for it. I'm not saying there arnt strong builds out there using it but most people probably prioritise other skills that they find more important in mdk combat. Also like someone else mentioned, you don't need to go them when they are coming to you, which is more often than not a bad idea to follow a mdk into his trap.
Well, it's a big, big mistake not to slot them if you're a melee magicka DK (like most are). More people will figure that out sooner or later.
Ironically, most of these people are also the same ones always complaining about NBs & snipers in the forums, when those builds would be the easiest of all to kill with this skill slotted.
Give it a couple of weeks/months, you'll see.Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 7:58PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Also the slowest class in the game with strong dots and no execute probably deserves to have the strongest gap closer imp of course.
The "slowest class in the game" actually has exact same burst as a weapon dmg heavy stamblade if you build for it.
There's not much of a difference between Ambush->Incap & Chains->Leap in terms of burst.Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 8:01PM0 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭Cool, you've found what I call "unicorn builds", because they're rare af.
What do you think I see more often in Cyrodiil, Moontan's DW/2H stamblades or Kodi's 2H/S&B builds?
I don't mean to offend anyone, but some things just become meta and others don't (has very much to do with how many viewers/subscribers a youtuber/streamer has).
Nothing to do with build viability (I myself only play DW/Bow & Bow/Bow builds on stamblade).
And most magicka sorcs (thought this was about 2H & gap closers) aren't using DW lol.
The most prominent mag sorc (and magblade for that matter) meta is Master Inferno & Flame Clench spam & different variations of that. There are a few DW overload gank builds around now after Blobs made that build of his a couple weeks ago, but I wouldn't call them meta.
Maybe I'll make a 2H ulti gank build now that you mentioned there aren't many youtubers/streamers doing that, but don't come here & say 2H is irrelevant when it's likely the most commonly slotted main bar weapon in the game.
Unicorn builds that I was able to find within a minute that are less than two days old. I don't see many NBs running DW outside of duels, but the DW stamplar (with 1 axe at least) is pretty popular. The point I was trying to make was that only slotting 1 or even 0 DW abilities on a bar could still result in a viable main bar, even with Rally and Executioner on the back bar.
You're right about one of Kodi's build being a 2H main build. However, the one I had in mind is the one used in this video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=EBxdpKuwNLg
23:02 is a point you can skip to check the bars.
This is the S&B/2H build that I have in mind where I consider the 2H bar as simply a buff bar, which it is. I see this type of build far more often than I see a build with S&B as an off bar.
Neither of his Warden builds slots a gap closer, though. I wonder why that is
1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cool, you've found what I call "unicorn builds", because they're rare af.
What do you think I see more often in Cyrodiil, Moontan's DW/2H stamblades or Kodi's 2H/S&B builds?
I don't mean to offend anyone, but some things just become meta and others don't (has very much to do with how many viewers/subscribers a youtuber/streamer has).
Nothing to do with build viability (I myself only play DW/Bow & Bow/Bow builds on stamblade).
And most magicka sorcs (thought this was about 2H & gap closers) aren't using DW lol.
The most prominent mag sorc (and magblade for that matter) meta is Master Inferno & Flame Clench spam & different variations of that. There are a few DW overload gank builds around now after Blobs made that build of his a couple weeks ago, but I wouldn't call them meta.
Maybe I'll make a 2H ulti gank build now that you mentioned there aren't many youtubers/streamers doing that, but don't come here & say 2H is irrelevant when it's likely the most commonly slotted main bar weapon in the game.
Unicorn builds that I was able to find within a minute that are less than two days old. I don't see many NBs running DW outside of duels, but the DW stamplar (with 1 axe at least) is pretty popular. The point I was trying to make was that only slotting 1 or even 0 DW abilities on a bar could still result in a viable main bar, even with Rally and Executioner on the back bar.
You're right about one of Kodi's build being a 2H main build. However, the one I had in mind is the one used in this video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=EBxdpKuwNLg
23:02 is a point you can skip to check the bars.
This is the S&B/2H build that I have in mind where I consider the 2H bar as simply a buff bar, which it is. I see this type of build far more often than I see a build with S&B as an off bar.
Neither of his Warden builds slots a gap closer, though. I wonder why that is
Every single build video of his is 2H main bar, you can check it yourself. It is precisely dueling where Heroic Slash builds are sometimes used, in open world 2H builds are by far the most popular ones.
There's more gap closer->rev slice spam than snipers in PvP these days... this should be obvious to anyone who actually plays PvP.
Wardens don't always slot a gap closer because they have 28m+ undodgeable birds (perfect for killing kiting stam builds), 20m shalks & major expedition from a skill you'd slot anyway for minor berserk. Any other questions?Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 8:52PM0 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭Cool, you've found what I call "unicorn builds", because they're rare af.
What do you think I see more often in Cyrodiil, Moontan's DW/2H stamblades or Kodi's 2H/S&B builds?
I don't mean to offend anyone, but some things just become meta and others don't (has very much to do with how many viewers/subscribers a youtuber/streamer has).
Nothing to do with build viability (I myself only play DW/Bow & Bow/Bow builds on stamblade).
And most magicka sorcs (thought this was about 2H & gap closers) aren't using DW lol.
The most prominent mag sorc (and magblade for that matter) meta is Master Inferno & Flame Clench spam & different variations of that. There are a few DW overload gank builds around now after Blobs made that build of his a couple weeks ago, but I wouldn't call them meta.
Maybe I'll make a 2H ulti gank build now that you mentioned there aren't many youtubers/streamers doing that, but don't come here & say 2H is irrelevant when it's likely the most commonly slotted main bar weapon in the game.
Unicorn builds that I was able to find within a minute that are less than two days old. I don't see many NBs running DW outside of duels, but the DW stamplar (with 1 axe at least) is pretty popular. The point I was trying to make was that only slotting 1 or even 0 DW abilities on a bar could still result in a viable main bar, even with Rally and Executioner on the back bar.
You're right about one of Kodi's build being a 2H main build. However, the one I had in mind is the one used in this video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=EBxdpKuwNLg
23:02 is a point you can skip to check the bars.
This is the S&B/2H build that I have in mind where I consider the 2H bar as simply a buff bar, which it is. I see this type of build far more often than I see a build with S&B as an off bar.
Neither of his Warden builds slots a gap closer, though. I wonder why that is
Every single build video of his is 2H main bar, you can check it yourself. It is precisely dueling where Heroic Slash builds are sometimes used, in open world 2H builds are by far the most popular ones.
There's more gap closer->rev slice spam than snipers in PvP these days... this should be obvious to anyone who actually plays PvP.
Wardens don't always slot a gap closer because they have 28m+ undodgeable birds (perfect for killing kiting stam builds), 20m shalks & major expedition from a skill you'd slot anyway for minor berserk. Any other questions?
Not every build video of his is 2H main bar, but most seem to be actually. IMO the strongest build is the S&B main one, though. For stamina, DW or S&B are used as main bars far more often than 2H for any kind of competitive PVP outside of NBs. Pretty sure that's why it was called irrelevant.
Yes, I do have another question. Where are the undodgeable birds here? https://youtube.com/watch?v=AATVnEkUXH8&feature=youtu.be&t=257
There's no gap closer here either: https://youtu.be/O3xnYgL1lgE?t=176..
Weird, he doesn't have any of the things you said. I wonder why there's no gap closer.Edited by Yiko on January 13, 2018 9:19PM0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Erm...
Range itself is a MASSIVE group of advantages.
Gets more out of mobility and positioning, melee has to come back towards the enemy to attack, ranged can escape behind a tree and bonk from afar.
Ranged builds can attack from places they can't be attacked/gapclosed, or attack places that melee cannot attack. I.e. rocks,
keep walls etc.
Can see projectiles incoming better.
Be careful not to overstate ranged advantage - in battlegrounds and open world it doesn't really exist IMO. The only time range feels powerful is during keep/outpost defense, and that's only because you can't gap-close the Z-axis lol.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cool, you've found what I call "unicorn builds", because they're rare af.
What do you think I see more often in Cyrodiil, Moontan's DW/2H stamblades or Kodi's 2H/S&B builds?
I don't mean to offend anyone, but some things just become meta and others don't (has very much to do with how many viewers/subscribers a youtuber/streamer has).
Nothing to do with build viability (I myself only play DW/Bow & Bow/Bow builds on stamblade).
And most magicka sorcs (thought this was about 2H & gap closers) aren't using DW lol.
The most prominent mag sorc (and magblade for that matter) meta is Master Inferno & Flame Clench spam & different variations of that. There are a few DW overload gank builds around now after Blobs made that build of his a couple weeks ago, but I wouldn't call them meta.
Maybe I'll make a 2H ulti gank build now that you mentioned there aren't many youtubers/streamers doing that, but don't come here & say 2H is irrelevant when it's likely the most commonly slotted main bar weapon in the game.
Unicorn builds that I was able to find within a minute that are less than two days old. I don't see many NBs running DW outside of duels, but the DW stamplar (with 1 axe at least) is pretty popular. The point I was trying to make was that only slotting 1 or even 0 DW abilities on a bar could still result in a viable main bar, even with Rally and Executioner on the back bar.
You're right about one of Kodi's build being a 2H main build. However, the one I had in mind is the one used in this video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=EBxdpKuwNLg
23:02 is a point you can skip to check the bars.
This is the S&B/2H build that I have in mind where I consider the 2H bar as simply a buff bar, which it is. I see this type of build far more often than I see a build with S&B as an off bar.
Neither of his Warden builds slots a gap closer, though. I wonder why that is
Every single build video of his is 2H main bar, you can check it yourself. It is precisely dueling where Heroic Slash builds are sometimes used, in open world 2H builds are by far the most popular ones.
There's more gap closer->rev slice spam than snipers in PvP these days... this should be obvious to anyone who actually plays PvP.
Wardens don't always slot a gap closer because they have 28m+ undodgeable birds (perfect for killing kiting stam builds), 20m shalks & major expedition from a skill you'd slot anyway for minor berserk. Any other questions?
Not every build video of his is 2H main bar, but most seem to be actually. IMO the strongest build is the S&B main one, though. For stamina, DW or S&B are used as main bars far more often than 2H for any kind of competitive PVP outside of NBs. Pretty sure that's why it was called irrelevant.
Yes, I do have another question. Where are the undodgeable birds here? https://youtube.com/watch?v=AATVnEkUXH8&feature=youtu.be&t=257
There's no gap closer here either: https://youtu.be/O3xnYgL1lgE?t=176..
Weird, he doesn't have any of the things you said. I wonder why there's no gap closer.
I don't know, why don't you ask him? They are available for Wardens and many choose to slot them.
Perhaps he feels his 2H/S&B stamina builds are mobile enough with Forward Momentum & Immovability/Speed pots?
If you think DW and S&B are used more on main bar than 2H Rev Slice... well, what can I tell you except to step inside Cyrodiil for a minute & see how fast you get gap closed by 16 rev slice spamming Xv1 heroes. I don't remember the last time I met a DW build in Cyrodiil, but then again they melt so fast I might not even notice them.
Generally speaking, just from the perspective of why DW/S&B aren't main barred as much... if you're using DW or S&B you simply don't have the DBOS+Execute combos to get people through shields/block.
Fun builds, sure - but not so competitive (outside duels, where TTK doesn't matter) sadly.
But sure, keep crying about how 2H is "irrelevant" while most people are happily using it on all classes (it's more common even on magicka builds than DW these days) - I quite frankly don't care.
If you want to see what truly is an off bar only weapon for vast majority of competitive builds, there's bow.Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 9:47PM0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).
In the last two dueling tournaments, Kodi had his damage skills on S&B bar and used 2H as buff.
I find it ridiculous that both of you are arguing that one is predominant over the other(s).
I've seen plenty of people main S&B, 2H, and DW. Each has it's advantages over the other. Though I would say on PC NA, Stamplars tend to DW whereas stam DKs do not.
And I'm not even sure what that has to do with the gap closer changesMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).
In the last two dueling tournaments, Kodi had his damage skills on S&B bar and used 2H as buff.
I find it ridiculous that both of you are arguing that one is predominant over the other(s).
I've seen plenty of people main S&B, 2H, and DW. Each has it's advantages over the other. Though I would say on PC NA, Stamplars tend to DW whereas stam DKs do not.
And I'm not even sure what that has to do with the gap closer changes
Well, apparently 2H is "irrelevant" & nerf to gap closer is making it more "irrelevant".
I know there are some people running S&B & Heroic Slash as main DPS bar, but that's more of a dueling specific thing. In open world I almost never run into S&B main bars. It's 2H, 2H, 2H, some more 2H (usually bow or S&B off bar) and maybe the occasional DW unicorn every 14-15th stam build I come across.
To claim 2H isn't the most popular main bar weapon choice is just blatant disrespect towards facts.
That's EU, and having watched quite a lot of streams I don't believe it's much different in NA either.
tldr
To claim 2H is "irrelevant" while Bow is used almost exclusively as off bar & DW is a niche rarity (Rending Slashes/Blade Cloak being basicly the only DW skills that ever see any play) is just ridiculous.Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 10:53PM2 -
Grimlok_S✭✭✭✭✭IMO gapclosers should be utility skills, not necessarily damage focused.
Anyone using Crit Rush is off their rocker anyway, Stampede is the superior morph.
That aside, I think a lot of melee pvp builds dropped gapclosers because they'd send you to a loadscreen and have you killed more often than they worked and have since found other ways to adapt.Light Attack Hero
Class contextStamplar
StamDK
Stamsorc
MagDK
StamMAGStamden
Magplar
Stam NB
Bomb NB0 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭I don't know, why don't you ask him? They are available for Wardens and many choose to slot them.
Perhaps he feels his 2H/S&B stamina builds are mobile enough with Forward Momentum & Immovability/Speed pots?
If you think DW and S&B are used more on main bar than 2H Rev Slice... well, what can I tell you except to step inside Cyrodiil for a minute & see how fast you get gap closed by 16 rev slice spamming Xv1 heroes. I don't remember the last time I met a DW build in Cyrodiil, but then again they melt so fast I might not even notice them.
Yes, that's right. Gap closers aren't worth slotting for many builds, yet they're being nerfed. That's why these changes seem unnecessary.
If gap closers are being nerfed because of these 16 potato Xv1ers abusing these abilities, the changes should apply solely to that demographic and not those that do not abuse the gap closers, so a flat damage% decrease isn't the right solution.
I did say "competitive PVP," where gameplay is generally more demanding/less forgiving. I use the term "competitive" loosely, since this is ESO, but think duels, GvG, and maybe BGs.
If 80% of stam players use 2H as the main bar in Cyrodiil but only 20% do in a competitive setting, I think there's something to investigate. My sneaking suspicion is that its ease of use and lack of player knowledge explains its huge representation open world.
I was more focused on 2H's application in a competitive setting, where builds are fine tuned and players are generally more knowledgeable than a random in open world. When 2H is called irrelevant, we mean to say that is used as a buff bar primarily for most builds when those builds are pushed to their limit against capable players. It's assuming you're fighting a person - not a potato. Of course 2H is relevant with Rally/Forward Momentum. Virtually every stam build uses those abilities. Don't look too much into it being called irrelevant. It's "irrelevant" GIVEN that it's a constant in high end PVP/amongst knowledgable players. You're looking at popularity, and I'm looking at capability.
It's like we're talking about competitive strategies in MMA, and you're referencing the prevalence of a haymaker's effectiveness in a bar fight while I'm trying to analyze leg kicks or a boxing combination in the UFC. Like yeah, haymakers are much more prevalent and probably see a high success rate in the context that they're found, but it's just not the same for extremely obvious reasons. It's a misrepresentation. Why would I even think to consider the bar setting when we're talking about capabilities and balancing?
Also do take note that explaining something is not crying about it.
There's a Legend dueling tournament tonight. Keep track of how many players use 2H as a main bar and what class they are.Joy_Division wrote: »
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).
In the last two dueling tournaments, Kodi had his damage skills on S&B bar and used 2H as buff.
I find it ridiculous that both of you are arguing that one is predominant over the other(s).
I've seen plenty of people main S&B, 2H, and DW. Each has it's advantages over the other. Though I would say on PC NA, Stamplars tend to DW whereas stam DKs do not.
And I'm not even sure what that has to do with the gap closer changes
Yeah, and IIRC he hadn't even slotted executioner. I agree, this was ridiculous. It's slightly related to the gap closer changes in the sense that Crit Rush is is a 2H ability and is taking a heavy nerf. It's all about the value of a gap closer and how many builds forego the use of one at all.Edited by Yiko on April 28, 2018 5:57PM0 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭
I feel like that's a design choice you make a bit earlier on in a game's life. Gap closers don't even connect at times, so if they're taking away the damage, they should absolutely fix the utility.IMO gapclosers should be utility skills, not necessarily damage focused.
Anyone using Crit Rush is off their rocker anyway, Stampede is the superior morph.
That aside, I think a lot of melee pvp builds dropped gapclosers because they'd send you to a loadscreen and have you killed more often than they worked and have since found other ways to adapt.techprince wrote: »Stampade snare duration reduction is too much.
4s is still a good amount of time, can get a CC and burst in that window. It will probably be an even easier choice to pick that morph over Crit Rush if the changes go through. If they increase the duration from 4s, they would probably have to touch how much % it snares.Edited by Yiko on January 13, 2018 11:26PM0 -
WuffyCerulei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm fine with the 2hander change for pvp. It's such a pain when to get charged at 5 million times with crit charge.Sorcerer's pretty much been the same for years. Nerf Rush of Agony and Saints&Seducer's0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't know, why don't you ask him? They are available for Wardens and many choose to slot them.
Perhaps he feels his 2H/S&B stamina builds are mobile enough with Forward Momentum & Immovability/Speed pots?
If you think DW and S&B are used more on main bar than 2H Rev Slice... well, what can I tell you except to step inside Cyrodiil for a minute & see how fast you get gap closed by 16 rev slice spamming Xv1 heroes. I don't remember the last time I met a DW build in Cyrodiil, but then again they melt so fast I might not even notice them.
Yes, that's right. Gap closers aren't worth slotting for many builds, yet they're being nerfed. That's why these changes seem unnecessary.
If gap closers are being nerfed because of these 16 potato Xv1ers abusing these abilities, the changes should apply solely to that demographic and not those that do not abuse the gap closers, so a flat damage% decrease isn't the right solution.
I did say "competitive PVP," where gameplay is generally more demanding/less forgiving. I use the term "competitive" loosely, since this is ESO, but think duels, GvG, and maybe BGs.
If 80% of stam players use 2H as the main bar in Cyrodiil but only 20% do in a competitive setting, I think there's something to investigate. My sneaking suspicion is that its ease of use and lack of player knowledge explains its huge representation open world.
I was more focused on 2H's application in a competitive setting, where builds are fine tuned and players are generally more knowledgeable than a random in open world. When 2H is called irrelevant, we mean to say that is used as a buff bar primarily for most builds when those builds are pushed to their limit against capable players. It's assuming you're fighting a person - not a potato. Of course 2H is relevant with Rally/Forward Momentum. Virtually every stam build uses those abilities. Don't look too much into it being called irrelevant. It's "irrelevant" GIVEN that it's a constant in high end PVP/amongst knowledgable players. You're looking at popularity, and I'm looking at capability.
Also do take note that explaining something is not crying about it.
There's a Legend dueling tournament tonight. Keep track of how many players use 2H as a main bar and what class they are.Joy_Division wrote: »
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).
In the last two dueling tournaments, Kodi had his damage skills on S&B bar and used 2H as buff.
I find it ridiculous that both of you are arguing that one is predominant over the other(s).
I've seen plenty of people main S&B, 2H, and DW. Each has it's advantages over the other. Though I would say on PC NA, Stamplars tend to DW whereas stam DKs do not.
And I'm not even sure what that has to do with the gap closer changes
Yeah, and IIRC he hadn't even slotted executioner. I agree, this was ridiculous. It's slightly related to the gap closer changes in the sense that Crit Rush is is a 2H ability and is taking a heavy nerf. It's all about the value of a gap closer and how many builds forego the use of one at all.
Ever actually fought a kiting oriented build? Wouldn't surprise me if you hadn't in today's boring & stale dueling meta.
True story: I've actually beat some of the top EU duelers on a Bow/Bow build (a slight disadvantage one could say...), simply because they didn't have a gap closer slotted.
Other examples of kiting oriented builds: destro magblade, sorcs
These builds practically turn into free kills (well, except sorcs as they can create area denial with atro+mines to discourage gap closers) to anyone with a gap closer slotted currently.
Of course, in the current meta it hardly matters if you don't have one slotted. Magplars, Mag DKs, pretty much all stam builds are melee builds so having a gap closer slotted is redundant there and slotting one in a tournament with no skill swapping for instance would be a bad idea considering the vast majority of match ups.
However, when it comes to other types of PvP (e.g. BGs, Cyrodiil) where different types of builds actually exist & certain duels, having a gap closer makes an enormous difference and can even be considered too strong against squishy ranged builds.
Ever got CC'd by some other player as you're sprinting after someone about to die? Snared? Rooted? Maybe there's a bow build spamming Lethal Arrow behind those other people spamming Wrecking Blow/Rev Slice & you can't quite get to him? Perhaps a sorc streaking away from you & denying a kill? Maybe you need a quick LOS, or get to a person standing at higher ground? If only there was something you could do...
And yes, to address the whole "2H is buff bar in duels" thing: 2H is actually used by some of the strongest magicka DK dueling builds as main bar (resto being off bar).
Example of a very strong 2H mag DK build on EU (you're gonna need a translator though): https://youtu.be/UPU5_vvz5YE
It's also still very popular as main bar for stam builds in duels (far from irrelevant, even if S&B is popular as well).
You want to know what is actually a rarity in duels? DW. Bow. DW/Bow even more so.
Basicly only magplars (not all, but probably the majority) and a few "unicorn builds" out there run DW as main bar.Edited by DDuke on January 14, 2018 12:20AM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Worth noting: the upcoming Zaan set is also an indirect buff to gap closers in duel setting (15s cooldown & slow effect too long for 1vX though imo).0 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭Ever actually fought a kiting oriented build? Wouldn't surprise me if you hadn't in today's boring & stale dueling meta.
True story: I've actually beat some of the top EU duelers on a Bow/Bow build (a slight disadvantage one could say...), simply because they didn't have a gap closer slotted.
Other examples of kiting oriented builds: destro magblade, sorcs
These builds practically turn into free kills (well, except sorcs as they can create are denial with atro+mines to discourage gap closers) to anyone with a gap closer slotted currently.
Of course, in the current meta it hardly matters if you don't have one slotted. Magplars, Mag DKs, pretty much all stam builds are melee builds so having a gap closer slotted is redundant there and slotting one in a tournament with no skill swapping for instance would be a bad idea considering the vast majority of match ups.
However, when it comes to other types of PvP (e.g. BGs, Cyrodiil) where different types of builds actually exist & certain duels, having a gap closer makes an enormous difference and can even be considered too strong against squishy ranged builds.
Ever got CC'd by some other player as you're sprinting after someone about to die? Snared? Rooted? Maybe there's a bow build spamming Lethal Arrow behind those other people spamming Wrecking Blow/Rev Slice & you can't quite get to him? Perhaps a sorc streaking away from you & denying a kill? Maybe you need a quick LOS, or get to a person standing at higher ground? If only there was something you could do...
And yes, to address the whole "2H is buff bar in duels" thing: 2H is actually used by some of the strongest magicka DK dueling builds as main bar (resto being off bar).
Example (you're gonna need a translator though): https://youtu.be/UPU5_vvz5YE
It's also still very popular as main bar in duels (far from irrelevant, even if S&B is popular as well).
You want to know what is actually a rarity in duels? DW. Bow. DW/Bow even more so.
Basicly only magplars (not all, but probably the majority) and a few "unicorn builds" out there run DW as main bar.
Yup, I've played and fought against kiting oriented builds. I play 2h/bow medium armor NB and do slot crit rush, but some of the kiting builds also have a ridiculous amount of survivability (from Wizard's Riposte or even Transmutation), so they're obnoxious to fight against even with gap closers, which sometimes net them a free spell like Cripple. It'd probably be much more manageable with Ambush, since it can be used while rooted, but I don't like to change my open world build for duels. I haven't tried to fight against them using Forward Momentum. Weak players who try to use a kiting playstyle get obliterated by gap closers.
Right, I completely agree with all of you said about the value of a gap closer's utility. It fits my playstyle well, but like I mentioned earlier, even in open world, most of the top stamina builds do not include gap closers. I mean, Sorcs have streak and most NBs run a gap closer, but Templars, DKs, and Wardens typically aren't running a gap closer unless they're the pugs running the stock 2H open world build. The nerfs just seem really arbitrary to me and were unexpected. Werewolf Pounce nerf, really? The nerf to Crit Rush is drastic, too. 68 to 40% max dmg on top of 11% base damage nerf? The changes should be implemented incrementally if at all. Not once have I thought the damage on gap closers was too high, but that's just subjective. If these nerfs do go through, I really hope they fix the utility aspect of gap closers.
I didn't realize Mag DKs used 2H in duels. I was talking about 2h's use in regards to stamina, but that is interesting. Mag DKs use 2H more than stam classes huehue. 2H might be popular in duels, but it's definitely not popular among top tier stam players in the best builds.
Definitely agree that bows are a rarity.
I hope you're watching the Legend tournament on Blob's stream. You'd see just how many people are using DW. Most NBs, all stamplars, and stam sorcs that have dueled so far have been using it. The added weapon damage and Axe Bleed make it meta, definitely not unicorn builds. Haven't seen a Stamden or Stam DK yet, but I imagine they'd run S&B.Edited by Yiko on January 14, 2018 1:16AM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ever actually fought a kiting oriented build? Wouldn't surprise me if you hadn't in today's boring & stale dueling meta.
True story: I've actually beat some of the top EU duelers on a Bow/Bow build (a slight disadvantage one could say...), simply because they didn't have a gap closer slotted.
Other examples of kiting oriented builds: destro magblade, sorcs
These builds practically turn into free kills (well, except sorcs as they can create are denial with atro+mines to discourage gap closers) to anyone with a gap closer slotted currently.
Of course, in the current meta it hardly matters if you don't have one slotted. Magplars, Mag DKs, pretty much all stam builds are melee builds so having a gap closer slotted is redundant there and slotting one in a tournament with no skill swapping for instance would be a bad idea considering the vast majority of match ups.
However, when it comes to other types of PvP (e.g. BGs, Cyrodiil) where different types of builds actually exist & certain duels, having a gap closer makes an enormous difference and can even be considered too strong against squishy ranged builds.
Ever got CC'd by some other player as you're sprinting after someone about to die? Snared? Rooted? Maybe there's a bow build spamming Lethal Arrow behind those other people spamming Wrecking Blow/Rev Slice & you can't quite get to him? Perhaps a sorc streaking away from you & denying a kill? Maybe you need a quick LOS, or get to a person standing at higher ground? If only there was something you could do...
And yes, to address the whole "2H is buff bar in duels" thing: 2H is actually used by some of the strongest magicka DK dueling builds as main bar (resto being off bar).
Example (you're gonna need a translator though): https://youtu.be/UPU5_vvz5YE
It's also still very popular as main bar in duels (far from irrelevant, even if S&B is popular as well).
You want to know what is actually a rarity in duels? DW. Bow. DW/Bow even more so.
Basicly only magplars (not all, but probably the majority) and a few "unicorn builds" out there run DW as main bar.
Yup, I've played and fought against kiting oriented builds. I play 2h/bow medium armor NB and do slot crit rush, but some of the kiting builds also have a ridiculous amount of survivability (from Wizard's Riposte or even Transmutation), so they're obnoxious to fight against even with gap closers, which sometimes net them a free spell like Cripple. It'd probably be much more manageable with Ambush, since it can be used while rooted, but I don't like to change my open world build for duels. I haven't tried to fight against them using Forward Momentum. Weak players who try to use a kiting playstyle get obliterated by gap closers.
Right, I completely agree with all of you said about the value of a gap closer's utility. It fits my playstyle well, but like I mentioned earlier, even in open world, most of the top stamina builds do not include gap closers. I mean, Sorcs have streak and most NBs run a gap closer, but Templars, DKs, and Wardens typically aren't running a gap closer unless they're the pugs running the stock 2H open world build. The nerfs just seem really arbitrary to me and were unexpected. Werewolf Pounce nerf, really? The nerf to Crit Rush is drastic, too. 68 to 40% max dmg on top of 11% base damage nerf? The changes should be implemented incrementally if at all. Not once have I thought the damage on gap closers was too high, but that's just subjective. If these nerfs do go through, I really hope they fix the utility aspect of gap closers.
I didn't realize Mag DKs used 2H in duels. I was talking about 2h's use in regards to stamina, but that is interesting. Mag DKs use 2H more than stam classes huehue. 2H might be popular in duels, but it's definitely not popular among top tier stam players in the best builds.
Definitely agree that bows are a rarity.
I hope you're watching the Legend tournament on Blob's stream. You'd see just how many people are using DW. Most NBs, all stamplars, and stam sorcs that have dueled so far have been using it. The added weapon damage and Axe Bleed make it meta, definitely not unicorn builds. Haven't seen a Stamden or Stam DK yet, but I imagine they'd run S&B.
2H Stamblade
2H/DW (off bar for rending slashes & 2H with burst/execute by the looks of it) vs 2H/S&B stamplar (even using dizzying swing)
2H/Bow stamblade vs 2H/Bow stamblade
DW/Bow Stam Sorc (didn't have burst to kill the magplar, surprise surprise)
S&B/2H stamblade
...
2H/S&B Stamplar fighting atm...
Edit: just want to add, Kodi fighting the kiting magblade atm would've alrdy won with Ambush slotted.
...looking fairly standard that tournament so far. Lots of medium builds though, which is funny considering they've all but evaporated on EU megaserver (they don't last long against builds with undodgeable dmg).
Trust me, it's just not optimal - DW means you're either running no Rally/Forward Momentum, or you're running no S&B - and both spell death against undodgeable dmg, especially on medium armor.
Edit: Warden might be able to live in heavy as they have a viable alternative burst heal to Rally with stam mushrooms.
I also watched the previous 3 tournaments in which the 2H/S&B meta was even more apparent. It's nice that some people are trying out DW (and medium armor lol), but I don't think much will come of it until they nerf S&B and buff DW & Bow.
Anyway, time this thread returned on topic (gap closers).Edited by DDuke on January 14, 2018 2:40AM0
