General Consensus on Gap Closer Changes?

Yiko

DDuke wrote: »

2H Stamblade
2H/DW (off bar for rending slashes & 2H with burst/execute by the looks of it) vs 2H/S&B stamplar (even using dizzying swing)
2H/Bow stamblade vs 2H/Bow stamblade
DW/Bow Stam Sorc (didn't have burst to kill the magplar, surprise surprise)
S&B/2H stamblade

...

2H/S&B Stamplar fighting atm...

Edit: just want to add, Kodi fighting the kiting magblade atm would've alrdy won with Ambush slotted.


...looking fairly standard that tournament so far. Lots of medium builds though, which is funny considering they've all but evaporated on EU megaserver (they don't last long against builds with undodgeable dmg).


Trust me, it's just not optimal - DW means you're either running no Rally/Forward Momentum, or you're running no S&B - and both spell death against undodgeable dmg, especially on medium armor.
Edit: Warden might be able to live in heavy as they have a viable alternative burst heal to Rally with stam mushrooms.


I also watched the previous 3 tournaments in which the 2H/S&B meta was even more apparent. It's nice that some people are trying out DW (and medium armor lol), but I don't think much will come of it until they nerf S&B and buff DW & Bow.

---

Anyway, time this thread returned on topic (gap closers).

Yup, a handful of people used 2H as a main bar, around 4-5 IIRC. It was more than I expected. I think only 1 person, a Templar, used 2H as a main bar outside of NBs (Highpolicy did have Executioner on his back bar as a DK, though), and only 1 person who used 2H as a main bar made it past the first and second round, with the majority losing at the first possible chance.

I was really surprised to see even 1 Wrecking Blow user, it doesn't really have a place in competitive PVP. I also don't think medium armor really has a place either, but in these tournaments, open world builds are more or less encouraged. Many of the people competing aren't trying to min/max a dueling build.

I do agree that it's possible that Kodi could have won more quickly with a gap closer, but what would you have dropped in his build? Heroic Slash? Everything seemed pretty integral to the build, and Ambush does cost a pretty hefty amount of stam in heavy armor.

DW isn't optimal over S&B in the majority of cases, I agree, but there are times when it can outperform S&B based on matchup, build, and playstyle preferences. I do insist that it is more optimal than 2H/bow generally speaking. Both Templars and NBs can use DW to great effect with Biting Jabs and Surprise Attack as forms of reliable DPS. NBs have the added luxury of being able to slot Ambush as a gap closer while using DW. Templars also have Purify for a good amount of undodgeable damage while NBs have Cloak, so it is manageable. The main strengths of Dual Wield over 2H are the added set bonus, added weapon damage, the extremely powerful bleed that passively procs has a lower proc rate if used with only 1 axe (which most builds do) meaning that you can run something else like a dagger for more stats rather than a redundant higher proc rate + the bleed stacks with the 2H axe bleed, and an extra enchant/weapon trait (like infused or sharpened, since only the 1st weapon will be nirnhoned). Most stamplars I know are running DW currently, including Kirimoto (the one who made it quite far in the tournament) and Rhage Lionpride, whose video I linked earlier. Joy_Division touched on that as well. Yeah, S&B is always great, but don't sleep on DW.

IIRC I could count the amount of builds using a gap closer on 1 hand (despite the rule that you can change your bars based on matchup), but that's to be expected in that kind of environment.

Daus wrote: »

To put it eloquently: dumb.

Well, I don't think that you're wrong.

ecru

Gap closers were in a weird place in ESO. In other games they don't do nearly as much damage and they generally have a short cooldown so they can't be constantly spammed, especially if they have cc attached to them. If you're constantly moving out of melee range to spam a gap closer over and over again because it perma cc's your target or it's good dps to do so, that is a sign of poor combat balance/design imo.

techprince

Yiko wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

IMO gapclosers should be utility skills, not necessarily damage focused.

Anyone using Crit Rush is off their rocker anyway, Stampede is the superior morph.


That aside, I think a lot of melee pvp builds dropped gapclosers because they'd send you to a loadscreen and have you killed more often than they worked and have since found other ways to adapt.

I feel like that's a design choice you make a bit earlier on in a game's life. Gap closers don't even connect at times, so if they're taking away the damage, they should absolutely fix the utility.

techprince wrote: »

Stampade snare duration reduction is too much.

4s is still a good amount of time, can get a CC and burst in that window. It will probably be an even easier choice to pick that morph over Crit Rush if the changes go through. If they increase the duration from 4s, they would probably have to touch how much % it snares.

I already use stampade and i have dropped heroic slash because of it. Damage reduction is expectable but snare duration is not.

Yiko

ecru wrote: »

Gap closers were in a weird place in ESO. In other games they don't do nearly as much damage and they generally have a short cooldown so they can't be constantly spammed, especially if they have cc attached to them. If you're constantly moving out of melee range to spam a gap closer over and over again because it perma cc's your target or it's good dps to do so, that is a sign of poor combat balance/design imo.

Yeah, combat itself has been very unique from the start. No cooldowns on gap closers, purifies, fat heals, etc. I like how abilities like Streak and Rally are designed, where the abilities' capabilities are limited in some way. I feel like it's worth testing how combat would be affected if gap closers got a similar treatment.

techprince wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

IMO gapclosers should be utility skills, not necessarily damage focused.

Anyone using Crit Rush is off their rocker anyway, Stampede is the superior morph.


That aside, I think a lot of melee pvp builds dropped gapclosers because they'd send you to a loadscreen and have you killed more often than they worked and have since found other ways to adapt.

I feel like that's a design choice you make a bit earlier on in a game's life. Gap closers don't even connect at times, so if they're taking away the damage, they should absolutely fix the utility.

techprince wrote: »

Stampade snare duration reduction is too much.

4s is still a good amount of time, can get a CC and burst in that window. It will probably be an even easier choice to pick that morph over Crit Rush if the changes go through. If they increase the duration from 4s, they would probably have to touch how much % it snares.

I already use stampade and i have dropped heroic slash because of it. Damage reduction is expectable but snare duration is not.

Heroic Slash seems like one of the most overloaded abilities out there. Minor heroism, minor maim, 12s 60% snare, competitive dps capability.. I can't say why they're not bringing the snare lower on this while nerfing the snare on Stampede. My guess is that it's a combination of the rarity of Heroic Slash used in open world and the fact that Stampede can be initiated from afar.

Smmokkee

7k ambushes all day


Dont nerf it tho

FlamingBeard

DDuke wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

Also the slowest class in the game with strong dots and no execute probably deserves to have the strongest gap closer imp of course.

The "slowest class in the game" actually has exact same burst as a weapon dmg heavy stamblade if you build for it.

There's not much of a difference between Ambush->Incap & Chains->Leap in terms of burst.

You can't really say Empowering Chains (Empower and Expedition, costs base 3780 magicka) ---> Ferocious Leap (knocks down, gives small damage shield, costs 125 Ultimate)

is as powerful as:

Ambush (Snares and Empowers, costs base 3442 stamina) ---> Incapacitating Strike (stuns, Empowers all of your damage on the target for the next 6 seconds, applies Major Defile, and costs 70 Ultimate which means it can be used again quickly with Nightblade's disgusting Ultimate generation).

Trashs1

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.

Pretty much this.

Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.

If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).


What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?

The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.

Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/roots

Yiko wrote: »

I was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?

• Undodgeable
• Major Empower
• Major Expedition for 6 seconds
• Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
• Cheap cost

...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).


I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?

Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.

A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.


What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...

Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.

If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.

2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.

In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.

DDuke wrote: »

2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...

Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.

Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.

The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).

Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.

I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.

Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).

But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).


S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...

Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.

If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.

Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?

Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.

yep, list over.

gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.

I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.

2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...

The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).

stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.

And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.

Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.

Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?

Yeah...


Grass is not greener on the other side.

The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?

I could create a dozen of them right now since 2H ulti is the highest hitting single target ability in game as long as targets have any mitigation, so naturally it'd fit into any kind of a stealth gank build, or just instagib builds in general.

I'm not going to waste time looking up builds in youtube. Most do tend to gravitate towards the DBOS(or Incap)+Rev Slice combos rather than 2H ulti though.

Yiko wrote: »

You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.

The only time I miss a point is when one doesn't exist, such as right now.

Rending Slashes slotted=DW is main bar
Rev Slice/DBOS (i.e. your entire burst combo)/Rally slotted=2H is off bar?


I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense.

have to agree

my stamwarden 2h frontbar (offensive combo) /snb backbar (turteling)
my stamblade 2h frontbar / bow back

... when im going to think about my chars actually only my stamplar has 2h backbared

DDuke

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

Also the slowest class in the game with strong dots and no execute probably deserves to have the strongest gap closer imp of course.

The "slowest class in the game" actually has exact same burst as a weapon dmg heavy stamblade if you build for it.

There's not much of a difference between Ambush->Incap & Chains->Leap in terms of burst.

You can't really say Empowering Chains (Empower and Expedition, costs base 3780 magicka) ---> Ferocious Leap (knocks down, gives small damage shield, costs 125 Ultimate)

is as powerful as:

Ambush (Snares and Empowers, costs base 3442 stamina) ---> Incapacitating Strike (stuns, Empowers all of your damage on the target for the next 6 seconds, applies Major Defile, and costs 70 Ultimate which means it can be used again quickly with Nightblade's disgusting Ultimate generation).

Keep in mind the context, all magicka skills in the game are more expensive than their stamina counterparts. Also while the difference may seem big when comparing base costs, it's much less once you add modifiers. With 5/1/1 medium & 5/1/1 light setups:

Ambush 3098 Stamina
Empowering Chains 3160 Magicka (it actually becomes cheaper than Ambush for Breton characters, 3055 Magicka :P)

Compare Empowering Chains to Lotus Fan (3645 Magicka with 5/1/1) & you'll realize how cheap the skill actually is.


As to the effects themselves, I have very good reasons to call Chains->Leap as powerful as Ambush->Incap.

Most of the time it doesn't really matter what the cost of your offensive ultimate is - what matters is if it gets the job done or not (this by itself will help you refill your ultimate via Combat Frenzy passive).
And the burst damage is almost identical if you build for it as magicka DK, and in most cases when comparing to the usual rollerblades in their sustain gear it's more burst damage actually.

It's also more reliable, as both Ambush and Incap are dodgeable, where as chains & Leap aren't (nor any follow-up dmg you hit the target with).

I'd also like to point out that Chains snare the target as well (Warmth DK passive) and that the damage shield isn't exactly small (it's 50%+ of your health pool which means 10k+ shield depending on how many points in Bastion you have), where as after Incap you get... nothing in terms of survival, and as a result usually have to dodge roll/cloak to avoid dying before you can finish your opponent.

And lastly, Leap is actually AoE which is a pretty big upside when outnumbered...

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).

Not to derail the discussion here but i think they can nerf S&b blocking for all they want - as long as sword and board has the only two instant dmging spammable abilities available out of all weaponslines it´s gonna stay the go to weaponchoice for most stam builds without access to a class spammable.

Cinbri

Overall I like damage nerf for gap-closers coz main thing of it should be to close distance gap while nowdays those charges can also not just close gap but also deal pretty high damage.
But don't get why Templar charge got higher damage nerf than nb one. Templar charge not as smooth, has minimal range that apply very high limitations in fight, but in addition its morphs effects is now screwed by new uninterruptable mechanic. You can no longer interrupt cc immune enemies and with it Explosive charge loosing it control capability while Toppling as main cc in build will be left with like short 1.5 cc that is not enough to deal bursty damage.

Riggsy

How about they actually fix gap closers so they can be used on stairs again. Its annoying a f to chase someone through a keep and not be able to gap close going upstairs.

FlamingBeard

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

Also the slowest class in the game with strong dots and no execute probably deserves to have the strongest gap closer imp of course.

The "slowest class in the game" actually has exact same burst as a weapon dmg heavy stamblade if you build for it.

There's not much of a difference between Ambush->Incap & Chains->Leap in terms of burst.

You can't really say Empowering Chains (Empower and Expedition, costs base 3780 magicka) ---> Ferocious Leap (knocks down, gives small damage shield, costs 125 Ultimate)

is as powerful as:

Ambush (Snares and Empowers, costs base 3442 stamina) ---> Incapacitating Strike (stuns, Empowers all of your damage on the target for the next 6 seconds, applies Major Defile, and costs 70 Ultimate which means it can be used again quickly with Nightblade's disgusting Ultimate generation).

Keep in mind the context, all magicka skills in the game are more expensive than their stamina counterparts. Also while the difference may seem big when comparing base costs, it's much less once you add modifiers. With 5/1/1 medium & 5/1/1 light setups:

Ambush 3098 Stamina
Empowering Chains 3160 Magicka (it actually becomes cheaper than Ambush for Breton characters, 3055 Magicka :P)

Compare Empowering Chains to Lotus Fan (3645 Magicka with 5/1/1) & you'll realize how cheap the skill actually is.


As to the effects themselves, I have very good reasons to call Chains->Leap as powerful as Ambush->Incap.

Most of the time it doesn't really matter what the cost of your offensive ultimate is - what matters is if it gets the job done or not (this by itself will help you refill your ultimate via Combat Frenzy passive).
And the burst damage is almost identical if you build for it as magicka DK, and in most cases when comparing to the usual rollerblades in their sustain gear it's more burst damage actually.

It's also more reliable, as both Ambush and Incap are dodgeable, where as chains & Leap aren't (nor any follow-up dmg you hit the target with).

I'd also like to point out that Chains snare the target as well (Warmth DK passive) and that the damage shield isn't exactly small (it's 50%+ of your health pool which means 10k+ shield depending on how many points in Bastion you have), where as after Incap you get... nothing in terms of survival, and as a result usually have to dodge roll/cloak to avoid dying before you can finish your opponent.

And lastly, Leap is actually AoE which is a pretty big upside when outnumbered...

You weren't comparing uses in group play, though. You compared the two classes in burst damage potential.

I don't know about you, but I find it quite difficult to dodge any attack a Nightblade hits me with from stealth as I'm already feared, so Ambush or Incapacitating Strike being dodgeable technically means nothing since Nightblades have a variety of methods to guarantee a few free hits on a target of their choosing.

Also, you would sacrifice loads of fire damage from Dunmer for a measly 3% magicka cost reduction and a few percentages worth of spell resistance?

No magDK player who actually wants to get killing blows would choose Breton over Dunmer since magDK already lacks any execute options.

Breton's passives are not worth the drastic fire damage loss.

Minno

Cinbri wrote: »

Overall I like damage nerf for gap-closers coz main thing of it should be to close distance gap while nowdays those charges can also not just close gap but also deal pretty high damage.
But don't get why Templar charge got higher damage nerf than nb one. Templar charge not as smooth, has minimal range that apply very high limitations in fight, but in addition its morphs effects is now screwed by new uninterruptable mechanic. You can no longer interrupt cc immune enemies and with it Explosive charge loosing it control capability while Toppling as main cc in build will be left with like short 1.5 cc that is not enough to deal bursty damage.

Because it will proc burning light. And the secondary morph is an AOE gap closer so it will deal undodgable damage.

DDuke

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

Also the slowest class in the game with strong dots and no execute probably deserves to have the strongest gap closer imp of course.

The "slowest class in the game" actually has exact same burst as a weapon dmg heavy stamblade if you build for it.

There's not much of a difference between Ambush->Incap & Chains->Leap in terms of burst.

You can't really say Empowering Chains (Empower and Expedition, costs base 3780 magicka) ---> Ferocious Leap (knocks down, gives small damage shield, costs 125 Ultimate)

is as powerful as:

Ambush (Snares and Empowers, costs base 3442 stamina) ---> Incapacitating Strike (stuns, Empowers all of your damage on the target for the next 6 seconds, applies Major Defile, and costs 70 Ultimate which means it can be used again quickly with Nightblade's disgusting Ultimate generation).

Keep in mind the context, all magicka skills in the game are more expensive than their stamina counterparts. Also while the difference may seem big when comparing base costs, it's much less once you add modifiers. With 5/1/1 medium & 5/1/1 light setups:

Ambush 3098 Stamina
Empowering Chains 3160 Magicka (it actually becomes cheaper than Ambush for Breton characters, 3055 Magicka :P)

Compare Empowering Chains to Lotus Fan (3645 Magicka with 5/1/1) & you'll realize how cheap the skill actually is.


As to the effects themselves, I have very good reasons to call Chains->Leap as powerful as Ambush->Incap.

Most of the time it doesn't really matter what the cost of your offensive ultimate is - what matters is if it gets the job done or not (this by itself will help you refill your ultimate via Combat Frenzy passive).
And the burst damage is almost identical if you build for it as magicka DK, and in most cases when comparing to the usual rollerblades in their sustain gear it's more burst damage actually.

It's also more reliable, as both Ambush and Incap are dodgeable, where as chains & Leap aren't (nor any follow-up dmg you hit the target with).

I'd also like to point out that Chains snare the target as well (Warmth DK passive) and that the damage shield isn't exactly small (it's 50%+ of your health pool which means 10k+ shield depending on how many points in Bastion you have), where as after Incap you get... nothing in terms of survival, and as a result usually have to dodge roll/cloak to avoid dying before you can finish your opponent.

And lastly, Leap is actually AoE which is a pretty big upside when outnumbered...

You weren't comparing uses in group play, though. You compared the two classes in burst damage potential.

I don't know about you, but I find it quite difficult to dodge any attack a Nightblade hits me with from stealth as I'm already feared, so Ambush or Incapacitating Strike being dodgeable technically means nothing since Nightblades have a variety of methods to guarantee a few free hits on a target of their choosing.

On live it's extremely easy: you see "Ambush" icon pop up on screen, you dodge roll. Easypeasy.

On PTS with that abomination of an addon gone it's more difficult, sure, but still very doable.

I don't know what this has to do with anything though, it's even harder to dodge Empowering Chains & Leap because... well, you can't dodge them at all.

As a sidenote, I made some tests recently regarding those "guaranteed free hits", you might find it informative: https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Also, you would sacrifice loads of fire damage from Dunmer for a measly 3% magicka cost reduction and a few percentages worth of spell resistance?

No magDK player who actually wants to get killing blows would choose Breton over Dunmer since magDK already lacks any execute options.

Breton's passives are not worth the drastic fire damage loss.

No of course not, just threw it in as an example of how cheap the cost of Empowering Chains is when picking Breton race can make it cheaper than Ambush. Never in a million years would I pick anything over Dunmer for mag DK though (don't really care about ability costs that much).

Enslaved

I can understand stampede snare nerf. Rest are just wtf tier nerfs.
I guess someone killed a sorc played by dev in PvP with gapcloser, so now we all have to be nerfed. All but sorcerers, off course. Why isn't there a nerf to streak and its stun? On the other hand they nerfed poor templars lol

Mazbt

Should be a cost increase for spamming gap closer as opposed to lowering the damage. Lowering the snare is fine though since snares are everywhere.

Tommy_The_Gun

If they are nerfing dmg an all gap closers (lol even WW Pounce skill got nerfed) - they should nerf like "all" gap closers in game (there are some that patch notes do not mention - example sorcerer "Streak" morph - "Damage and stun enemies in front of you." ) Also if those skills deal less dmg - they should also be cheaper.

edit: Maybe that is the reason why they are not changing Streak ? Because there were numerous problems & adjustments to that skill in the past because people spammed it like crazy in PvP... idk.

Yiko

Derra wrote: »

Not to derail the discussion here but i think they can nerf S&b blocking for all they want - as long as sword and board has the only two instant dmging spammable abilities available out of all weaponslines it´s gonna stay the go to weaponchoice for most stam builds without access to a class spammable.

Yeah, WB/Dizzying Swing are primarily used when PVP is "player vs potato" or "potato vs potato." While those may be the most prevalent types of "PVP," I don't think they're reliable indicators of balance/capability. I was trying to consider how I would make Wrecking Blow (the vastly less popular morph, which doesn't stun) applicable against actual competition or just in general. It ultimately came down to lowering the damage to levels comparable to Surprise Attack and making it instant cast (possibly only instant cast against targets who are CC'd or have CC immunity).

Enslaved wrote: »

I can understand stampede snare nerf. Rest are just wtf tier nerfs.
I guess someone killed a sorc played by dev in PvP with gapcloser, so now we all have to be nerfed. All but sorcerers, off course. Why isn't there a nerf to streak and its stun? On the other hand they nerfed poor templars lol

Yup, I was definitely blindsided by the seemingly arbitrary changes. I'm not sure I would nerf Sorcs, though. They aren't in as dominant of a position as they've been in the past.

Mazbt wrote: »

Should be a cost increase for spamming gap closer as opposed to lowering the damage. Lowering the snare is fine though since snares are everywhere.

Agreed. At the very least, it's worth testing on the PTS.