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General Consensus on Gap Closer Changes?
Yiko
✭✭✭✭✭
I'm wondering what the community's thoughts are on the PTS' changes (nerfs) to gap closers.
From my perspective, I had never even considered that gap closers were overtuned. So many meta builds in PVP do not even bother to slot gap closers , so I'm honestly wondering what prompted these seemingly arbitrary changes.
Teleport Strike: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 13%.
Ambush nerf is unexpected (as all of these changes are), but I'm not beat up about it. It's a self-buffing gap closer that can be annoying to deal with when spammed, due to a lack of minimum range required to cast it.
Critical Charge: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 11%.
Critical Rush (Critical Charge morph): Decreased the damage bonus based on distance traveled granted by this morph to 40% from 68%.
In terms of performance, I do think that Crit Rush may have been overperforming in comparison to other stamina gap closers, like Ambush. However, I think that the nerf to it's maximum damage% increase based on distance traveled is excessive. 68% to 40% is a massive change on top of the 11% base damage decrease which would be better implemented through incremental changes after testing if necessary.
Critical Charge: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 11%.
Stampede (Critical Charge morph): Decreased the duration of the snare applied by this morph to 4 seconds from 8 seconds.
One Hand and Shield
The nerf to Stampede's utility is absolutely understandable and ultimately a good change in my opinion. However, it was still be relatively easy to reapply, so we'll have to keep our eyes on how the latest iteration will affect PVP.
Focused Charge: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 18%.
Pounce: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16%.
I fundamentally do not comprehend the changes to Focused Charge or Pounce, though. I don't play any builds that utilize those, and almost never do I fight someone that does. When I DO fight someone using these, the thought that they're overtuned has not occurred to me.
Shield Charge: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 20%.
Same case with Invasion, haven't had a problem with it. 20% nerf seems a bit drastic, like the Crit Rush nerf. Most S&B builds I've seen do not even use Shield Charge or its morphs.
So those are my thoughts on the proposed changes, what are yours?
From my perspective, I had never even considered that gap closers were overtuned. So many meta builds in PVP do not even bother to slot gap closers , so I'm honestly wondering what prompted these seemingly arbitrary changes.
Teleport Strike: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 13%.
Ambush nerf is unexpected (as all of these changes are), but I'm not beat up about it. It's a self-buffing gap closer that can be annoying to deal with when spammed, due to a lack of minimum range required to cast it.
Critical Charge: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 11%.
Critical Rush (Critical Charge morph): Decreased the damage bonus based on distance traveled granted by this morph to 40% from 68%.
In terms of performance, I do think that Crit Rush may have been overperforming in comparison to other stamina gap closers, like Ambush. However, I think that the nerf to it's maximum damage% increase based on distance traveled is excessive. 68% to 40% is a massive change on top of the 11% base damage decrease which would be better implemented through incremental changes after testing if necessary.
Critical Charge: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 11%.
Stampede (Critical Charge morph): Decreased the duration of the snare applied by this morph to 4 seconds from 8 seconds.
One Hand and Shield
The nerf to Stampede's utility is absolutely understandable and ultimately a good change in my opinion. However, it was still be relatively easy to reapply, so we'll have to keep our eyes on how the latest iteration will affect PVP.
Focused Charge: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 18%.
Pounce: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16%.
I fundamentally do not comprehend the changes to Focused Charge or Pounce, though. I don't play any builds that utilize those, and almost never do I fight someone that does. When I DO fight someone using these, the thought that they're overtuned has not occurred to me.
Shield Charge: Decreased the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 20%.
Same case with Invasion, haven't had a problem with it. 20% nerf seems a bit drastic, like the Crit Rush nerf. Most S&B builds I've seen do not even use Shield Charge or its morphs.
So those are my thoughts on the proposed changes, what are yours?
6
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Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Seems like alot of unnecessary nerfs if you ask me. I'm not in favor of any of these. I rarely have seen others complain about them either.Edited by Apache_Kid on January 12, 2018 5:50AM11 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
6 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is 1 simple reason for gap closer change. When You small scale PvPing using LoS like rocks etc is very important but it lost the sense because people could just kill You by gap close spamming because it requires much more clicking end effort to effectively LoS then to just gap closer button that will deal 3-4k dmg and will also move You to the area where enemie is and that makes basicly LoS useless way of defense since You'll be getting pounded anyway. Bunch of scrubs can kill smaller group of experienced players just by spamming gap closers which is not totally ok. In my opinion 11-20% dmg nerf is not enough I would even reccomend 33% dmg nerfs since many gap closers have additional functions like slows , stuns etc.Edited by Juhasow on January 12, 2018 6:03AM2 -
glavius✭✭✭✭✭Main problem with (non nightblade) gapclosers is that they don't really work. Half the time it doesn't connect. I never bother to play anything but my nightblade, largely because of this issue.2
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Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I vote for cost increase for gap closer spam and remove the stupid snare.Edited by Zer0oo on January 12, 2018 7:22AM
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus3 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭I vote for cost increase for gap closer spam and remove the stupid snare.
I was considering that as well. Would you implement a flat % increase or scaling % increase, like dodge roll or Streak?Main problem with (non nightblade) gapclosers is that they don't really work. Half the time it doesn't connect. I never bother to play anything but my nightblade, largely because of this issue.
Yeah! I totally forgot to mention that in the first post. Using a gap closer like Critical Rush or Invasion on someone who's far (~60%+ of total range of gap closer) and sprinting away, sprinting away with Major Expedition, a Streaking sorc, etc will result in the gap closer doing zero damage while still consuming stamina. I forget which patch it was that changed this. This interaction I feel like makes nerfing gap closers even more of an absurd decision.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
I don't think I agree with your first statement, since it's so broad/general. What route would you have taken in addressing gap closers?There is 1 simple reason for gap closer change. When You small scale PvPing using LoS like rocks etc is very important but it lost the sense because people could just kill You by gap close spamming because it requires much more clicking end effort to effectively LoS then to just gap closer button that will deal 3-4k dmg and will also move You to the area where enemie is and that makes basicly LoS useless way of defense since You'll be getting pounded anyway. Bunch of scrubs can kill smaller group of experienced players just by spamming gap closers which is not totally ok. In my opinion 11-20% dmg nerf is not enough I would even reccomend 33% dmg nerfs since many gap closers have additional functions like slows , stuns etc.
Yeah, I've definitely had that happen to me. If I had to, I would rather implement a change that only affects the individuals that abuse gap closers like that, such as an increasing % cost increase within X amount of seconds. That way players who do not use gap closers like that will still retain close to full functionality. That said, I'm not sure if that's the right approach, either.
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Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I never understood why gapclosers did even nearly as much damage as they did. They are skills specifically meant to “close the gap”.... not put out a bunch of damage to line up burst/pressure solo players that are running away.
I’m totally fine with these nerfs but just wish they happened sooner. Gapclosers should have never been able to deal so much damage. Like imagine if Bolt Escape did as much damage as a Crystal Frag lol. Gap closers should deal low damage imo.8 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭Gap closers don't even work that well anymore.... so i'm not really using them much anymore anyways.Main problem with (non nightblade) gapclosers is that they don't really work. Half the time it doesn't connect. I never bother to play anything but my nightblade, largely because of this issue.
nah, even ambush doesn't work that well anymore either. since they made the changes so you can't ambush off of keep walls(onto people trying to seige a FD of a keep or through the grate on an outpost) they really dumbed down the applications.
anyways, ever since they made those changes, ambush isn't as reliable as it used to be. i don't really care if they cut the damage but bring back the previous applications of gap closers at least.Edited by Lucky28 on January 14, 2018 9:34AMInvictus1 -
Gapclosers already deal low dmg for the most part, coupled with the fact that theyre incredibly easy to dodge/block/whatever average dmg coming from a gapcloser is much lower than that of a spammable. Most builds dont even need gapclosers a lot of the time -heavy and light melee builds dont attempt to move away from their opponents, the only builds which really want a gapcloser are medium non snb builds cause their playstyle involves moving away, so really this is an indirect nerf to medium more than anything. No one asked for this nerf, it wasnt needed and zos didnt provide any good reasons to do so.6 -
FlamingBeard✭✭✭✭✭First, they completely remove CC from Spear Shards and its morphs, and now they're heavily weakening one of magicka Templar's only 2 viable stuns?
Aurora Javelin is wayyy too costly for being reflectable, dodgeable, and blockable AND it pushes enemies out of Puncturing Sweep range so it's a dud as a main stun in PvP.
Toppling Charge bugs out a quarter of the the time (like most other gap closers) and is also easily blocked or dodged because of how telegraphed the animation is, not to mention that it already does very low damage (you're unlikely to find any magicka Templars with enough Champion Points to put into Master-at-Arms to affect Toppling Charge's damage much, since our main spammable Puncturing Sweep requires a lot of Thaumaturge investment) and lowering that even further is just making a sub-par skill worse.Edited by FlamingBeard on January 12, 2018 2:28PM3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?4 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I support gap closers doing less damage and potentially even costing more.
IMO, gap closers should do little more than close the gap, not deal a good dose of damage, too.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub3 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »Gapclosers already deal low dmg for the most part, coupled with the fact that theyre incredibly easy to dodge/block/whatever average dmg coming from a gapcloser is much lower than that of a spammable. Most builds dont even need gapclosers a lot of the time -heavy and light melee builds dont attempt to move away from their opponents, the only builds which really want a gapcloser are medium non snb builds cause their playstyle involves moving away, so really this is an indirect nerf to medium more than anything. No one asked for this nerf, it wasnt needed and zos didnt provide any good reasons to do so.
Yeah, it feels like it's less about balance and more like an abrupt change in game design philosophy.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
I was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/roots
I was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 3:42PM3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.5 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally. yes, most stam builds run it as an utility bar,But the same builds use SnB for damage output, isnt something seriously wrong here?
Heroic weave doing just as much damage as wrecking blow and doing it more reliably+faster.
So lets count who actually has to use 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 13, 2018 4:00PM2 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Don't forget that savage passive snare...
It is surprising that more people don't use Emp Chains, it packs a lot of utility and makes it really hard to deal with an offensive dk when you can't keep them off your nuts. XD0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).3 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned
I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.Edited by Yiko on January 13, 2018 4:14PM1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is quite alot of complaining about gap closers, so that statement is very untrue.
The complains haven't been about the damage though. The complains are about how infinitely these mobility abilities can be spammed without a penalty and that they almost root you in place for the entire duration of the charge and a bit beyond.
Nerfing them is very necessary, nerfing the damage though is not only very lazy, but the wrong approach. Give them a treatment similar to bolt escape and do something about this stupid cripple slow. You make Magicka users think and force them to use several things to make something work. Well then make melee's use slows in order to make their gap closers hit, which everyone does anyway.
Edited by Dracane on January 13, 2018 4:30PMAuri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos3 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 13, 2018 4:31PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 4:41PM1 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭
Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).
I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.
The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?
You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.2 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Erm...
Range itself is a MASSIVE group of advantages.
Gets more out of mobility and positioning, melee has to come back towards the enemy to attack, ranged can escape behind a tree and bonk from afar.
Ranged builds can attack from places they can't be attacked/gapclosed, or attack places that melee cannot attack. I.e. rocks,
keep walls etc.
Can see projectiles incoming better.
MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).
I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.
The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?
I could create a dozen of them right now since 2H ulti is the highest hitting single target ability in game as long as targets have any mitigation, so naturally it'd fit into any kind of a stealth gank build, or just instagib builds in general.
I'm not going to waste time looking up builds in youtube. Most do tend to gravitate towards the DBOS(or Incap)+Rev Slice combos rather than 2H ulti though.You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.
The only time I miss a point is when one doesn't exist, such as right now.
Rending Slashes slotted=DW is main bar
Rev Slice/DBOS (i.e. your entire burst combo)/Rally slotted=2H is off bar?
I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense.Edited by DDuke on January 13, 2018 5:23PM2 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Some of the best builds in the game atm are S&B builds, especially on Warden. Reverb coupled with the Befoul CP is overperforming.Well it's no secret that melee builds outperform ranged in literally every respect EXCEPT range advantage, which is entirely negated by spamming a gap closer. These nerfs are likely a baby step toward evening the odds, albeit not exactly the route I would have taken.
Pretty much this.
Gap closers are especially deadly against squishy medium armor builds that try to kite you.
If some meta melee build isn't running a gap closer, that's a mistake imho (even after these changes).
What surprises me a little is that there's no mention of DKs' Empowering Chains (strongest gap closer in the game) in the patch notes, nor is there a mention of Silver Leash. I guess ZOS forgot the gap closer morphs in their balance pass?
The meta builds don't need gap closers, since they're only looking to kill what's coming at them. Chasing people down isn't a concern. If they need to, they use speed pots.
Well, tell that to the magicka DKs/Templars complaining about snares/rootsI was wondering about Chains, too. What makes it the strongest gap closer in the game?- Undodgeable
- Major Empower
- Major Expedition for 6 seconds
- Fire Damage (to proc BSW/Burning status effect)
- Cheap cost
...on a class that's 90% melee damage and doesn't have the innate mobility of stamina melee builds (which also tend to slot a gap closer).
I mean, if most stamblades slot Ambush (dodgeable, quite expensive & only gives the Major Empower) or Crit Rush, what would be your rationale for not slotting the magicka equivalent of it (that is also undodgeable & grants major expedition) on a mag DK?
Templars have purify, so idk about that. My point was that most meta builds for stam warden, mag warden, stam dk, mag dk, stam templar, mag templar, mag sorc(I don't know any stam sorc meta builds lol), and mag nb don't slot gap closers. For you to say "well tell that to X" when X is the minority is ridiculous.
The rationale for not slotting that gap closer on a mag DK would be for another ability, since gap closers aren't exactly overtuned I didn't realize Chains gave gave that much, though. I rarely see it, but I'd probably slot it if I played a mag DK.
Like I said, most of the best performing builds atm are crafted with the thought of dealing what's in front of you, not chasing people down.
A magplar with just cleanse is never going to catch for example a stamblade dodge rolling (or Shadow Imaging, once they fix that) away from you with Shuffle & Major Expedition, where as a magplar with Explosive Charge practically gets a free kill on them.
What you are describing are S&B tank builds that aren't really a danger to anyone who knows what they're doing and in my opinion, best builds are crafted around beating not only bad players, but also good/semi-decent ones.Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
2h is mostly irrelevant outside of Rally and Forward Momentum. The ONLY class that actually uses it is as the main bar is NB. Again, you are pointing to the minority while seeming to imply that it's the status quo for all. It's just a misrepresentation.
In PVP Stam warden uses S&B mostly, Templar uses DW or S&B, DK uses S&B, NB uses 2H mostly, and you don't generally see stam sorcs these days, but they seem to run mostly S&B. They use 2H as a buff bar. That's why Ragnarock was saying that 2H is irrelevant.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
Yes, the only case where 2H is used as a primary bar.. You're making his point for him.
Eh, most of the stam DKs/Sorcs/Wardens/Templars I meet also run 2H main bar for not just Rally/Forward Momentum, but also Rev Slice/Executioner. The entire burst combo of most stam builds is based around DBOS & Rev Slice.
The only class that actually has a stamina execute outside 2H weapon line is stamblade (and they still run 2H rather than DW most of the time).
I sincerely doubt that most people you meet run 2H bar as the primary bar on DK, sorc, warden, and templar. For example, if a DK is running 2h, it usually means that he's running Rally/Forward Momentum as a buff and Reverse Slice/Executioner for when he's bursted and looking to finish. I wouldn't call that a "main bar," but that is subjective, I suppose.
Sure, I'm not saying people don't run S&B (which in general is overperforming, lets see if block cost changes help).
But they don't run it as main bar, they run 2H as main bar (e.g. Kodi's Warden).
S&B is most of the time reserved for heals, buffs & just surviving, not for actually getting kills (though there are some builds that use Heroic Slash).Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »2h is already irrelevant, lets kill it even more...
Is that the same 2H that is used by virtually every stamina build out there (and many magicka builds) for Rally/Forward Momentum? It's rarer to see DW or Bow used in PvP than it is to see 2H.
If you mean PvE... well, a nerf to a gap closer is hardly going to matter.
Its a buff bar for everyone because of rally.
But lets count who actually uses 2h weapon tree for its own skills?
Stamsorcs.
non existant stamDKs.
yep, list over.
gapcloser+heavy attack is a thing for those specs I mentioned above, they do need it.
Your average stamblade/stamden doesnt need that combo for burst and will not be effected at all.
I mean, fine, nerf crit rush, but they could at least make some changes to dizzy/wrecking blow which is in a really bad spot.
2H/Bow is the most prevalent stamblade setup out there, and 2H absolutely isn't the off bar in those builds...
The only time 2H is used as an off bar is if you've got DW as main bar (since it gets you slightly more dmg) or need S&B there for some reason (i.e. for 5/5/2 procs).
stamblades do not use crit rush or dizzy swing. There is a reason every single good 2h main build do have class spammables.
Seriously, outside of momentum and rally, 2h is just dead. dizzy builds are hard to play yet they do not pay enough reward for the skill needed to play those builds.
And brawler is bad, really bad. With master 2h it gets a niche anti-zerg playstyle but thats about it.
Outside Forward Momentum/Rally/Executioner/Rev Slice (and I've seen builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing too), yes - 2H is dead (though I'm sure Brawler could be made work in a Master's 2H build, people just haven't really experimented with that yet). Oh, and the 2H ulti is used as well by many builds.
Meanwhile in DW land, how many people do you see using Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Steel Tornado? How about DW ulti?
Yeah...
Grass is not greener on the other side.
The point is that it is inarguably used as a buff bar far more than it is used as an active bar.
Also, I haven't seen the 2H ulti used in the past month that I've been back. What builds use it? Can you link me to one?
I could create a dozen of them right now since 2H ulti is the highest hitting single target ability in game as long as targets have any mitigation, so naturally it'd fit into any kind of a stealth gank build, or just instagib builds in general.
I'm not going to waste time looking up builds in youtube. Most do tend to gravitate towards the DBOS(or Incap)+Rev Slice combos rather than 2H ulti though.You're missing the point, though. It's not just about ability use, it's about the weapon type being used as a primary bar. Even if only Rending Slashes (1 DW ability) is used, it's generally on a build's primary bar, whereas a S&B build might run 2 2H abilities (Forward Momentum/Executioner for example) on the secondary bar. I remember you from another thread, I think the one about Miat's addon. IIRC you have a habit of missing the point entirely.
The only time I miss a point is when one doesn't exist, such as right now.
Rending Slashes slotted=DW is main bar
Rev Slice/DBOS (i.e. your entire burst combo)/Rally slotted=2H is off bar?
I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense.
I don't know what happened to the old DDuke, who was unbareable.
But you're making alot of sense these days, so don't let them tell you otherwise.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos2
