Satiar wrote: »

Those were some weasel words, Iz.

Don't badger me too @Satiar (I'm assuming you're going for an animal theme? otherwise that reply made no sense)

Texas wrote: »

You are absolutely correct in that I did not add anything towards the conversation (other than to attempt to try and help someone realize that it might be best to stop forum pvp'ing when they clearly were not geared properly)

Unless the goal was one of self demonstration I'm sorry that you didn't accomplish it. You might also wish to brush up on this link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_organ_grinder,_not_the_monkey

Texas wrote: »

Also, I'd like to apologize to @Sanct16 for zerging him down last night with Kirsi on the bridge

Its ok you weren't alone there were a few other AD with you too. All our members are used to being outnumbered

Texas wrote: »

My karma since posting here has gotten worse and I pray that someday it will get better where I need not worry about a Dracarys 16 man chasing me down and destro'ing a poor defenseless shield spamming sorc who is picking at their backline while hiding in a zerg.

After finishing the 40+ others around you made sense to kill the last few and move on from the fight, It's a bit creepy being stalked all night too so that factored into it. You might want some better binoculars though there weren't 16 of us

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Oh, so you have a problem about the language used huh? That

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The point (for those of you unable to grasp it still) is that for a viable discussion to be had about game mechanics and 'metas' the language used should not constantly insult a particular playstyle.

Yet you and Rin have zero problem using insulting language that is directed at me personally. You make assumptions about me, insist that I'm a hypocrite, and make (incorrect) assertions about how I have played the game, how I currently play the game, and my motivations.

Practice what you preach when someone insults the play-style you so vigorously want to defend.

Nice attempt to change the narrative to your favour.

The only language i've used towards you is to call you out for being a hypocrite, it wasn't me who started insulting other playstyles and players calling them mindless and bots etc..
Hypocrite is not an insult if its accurate and I believe it has been shown to be so in this example.

I'm going always going to stick up for group players and groups when they are insulted because I play that style as does the guild I'm in and thus an insult to them is an insult to me and the rest of my players. That doesn't preclude having a discussion about any gameplay format provided its done in a positive way.

Equally cheerleaders isn't an insult, unless you take it as one, in which case I would have to wonder what your past history with sports has been. Texas, Shaggy and the rest of the crew were actually the ones insulting and adding nothing towards the conversation yet where is your condemnation of them? Perhaps this is another example of the above?

A good rule to live by would be: If you don't like being called out, don't flame in the first place.

Perhaps now I've demonstrated my point we can move on and post in a more positive way.

The narrative is the same.

You have demonstrated that you have zero problem throwing out insults and calling out other people and guilds for behavior that you have done yourself. You talk about how important it is to use non-insulting language to have a valid discussion, yet excuse yourself from that standard because of what you believe to be true. When I insult the tactics your raid uses, you take it as a personal insult. When you insult me personally, you refuse to acknowledge it as such. And you call my a hypocrite. The irony.

Feel free to quote my insults towards you, you obviously consider them numerous.
You don't insult the tactics we use you insult the players. "mindless, bot like" have nothing to do with tactics.
It seems you are a little confused on what constitutes mechanics = AoE Caps, PBAoE abilities, Use of skills to provide group buffs, earthgore proccing etc.. The things you have used as insults do not refer to them.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Tex, Shaggy, and other VE members are grown-ups, they can and do speak for themselves. I do not represent them nor do they represent me. If you have an issue with something they said to you, it's not my place to condemn them. That's up to you and you have responded.

Unfortunately they are representing you and If you are represented by hatred and don't speak out against it then that goes towards your character I'm sorry to say.

As you wish me to critique your video more deeply here we go (i'll save everyone else from more text than is needed): Your concern for my well being is endearing but I assure you that I don't feel any soreness. Personally if this is the only example you provide I feel quite justified in my opinion.

This is the main point we differ on:

Joy_Division wrote: »

At some point, all the hate tells players who pain train get, all the awful and offensive things written in Zone chat about ball-groups (which are far far worse than anything I wrote in these forums), and the 3+ years of commentary on these forums that go way back to "impulse spamming monkeys," should make it crystal clear that the game would be better off at least trying to make meaningful changes to encourage something different from coordinated PBAoEs and the PapaCrown add-on.
Give the people what they want. Your guild and your players are good enough to adapt and excel.

Hate should never get what it wants, I think more people hate gankers or faction stack zerging does that mean that those playstyles should go too? Your mission to remove tools to deal with faction stacks by trying to remove organised group play unfortunately will have a detrimental effect on the game. This is why its important to consider the whole argument and why good positive discussion is important before coming to a conclusion.
If 'the people' want all your property and money do you hand them out freely to them even if you are good enough to make more?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Unless the goal was one of self demonstration I'm sorry that you didn't accomplish it. You might also wish to brush up on this link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_organ_grinder,_not_the_monkey

Its ok you weren't alone there were a few other AD with you too. All our members are used to being outnumbered

After finishing the 40+ others around you made sense to kill the last few and move on from the fight, It's a bit creepy being stalked all night too so that factored into it. You might want some better binoculars though there weren't 16 of us

I'm old enough to know what the saying means and am not mistaken in her intent for typing it.

Kirsi and I were the only ones that got him on the bridge from my recollection but then again I may have had my zerg goggles on at the time. I felt bad when all he had was his destro ult since he was in his raid build and then whispered me that I was building up bad karma by zerging him down with my fellow sorc hence the tongue-in-cheek apology with hugs at the end.

Kirsi and I were just taking Anaire's advice and trying to find a good opportunity to help wipe your raid or pick off the occasional straggler since we didn't have a large enough raid to take y'all head on (probably would need that classic 37 man VE raid for that) .

You like that Wiki so I'll leave this for you just in case you're unfamiliar with the saying so as to not cause any confusion in what my posts/play style/and general outlook on life are......

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tongue-in-cheek#English

Forum PVP : Animals of Farthing Wood meta.

pieratsos wrote: »

Just because there are big zergs, it doesnt mean that u are entitled to kill them. You are telling me that i shouldnt be able to kill an organised group but you somehow believe that trains should be able to kill zergs with 3 times their size. Thats not how this works mate. You cant have it both ways.

QFT......Hypocrisy?

Ixtyr wrote: »

Jesus Christ this thread has become cancer.

This thread has adjusted its playstyle to match the current incarnation of Cyrodiil.

pieratsos wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Newton's_bane wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Just because you put some thought and made a build it doenst mean that the whole server needs to suffer for it and that you should get carried by bs mechanics.

Solo players put lots of thought into making their builds as well. A lot more thought than you do i should add and thats not even a debate. They dont feel entitled to bs mechanics to carry them and wreck everyone in their path.

I assume you never ran in a PvP train. If you had you would never make that comment. Most of the week I play solo or smallscale and have made countless builds by now and I know it takes a while to come up with something new and get used to it. I must admit that the majority of time doesn't go into making a build for a train but the majority goes into training. It takes months to work together as one train group and as much as becoming a good leader. I think I can for sure say that making a good solo build is just a fraction of what goes into making a good train.
But that's not the point the thing is that trains target zergs not solo players or smallscalers. They are not even effective against them. So solo players have not much to worry about unless they are zerg surfing ofc. I mean what do you want else: absolutely no counterplay to massive zergs of another faction while your faction struggles to put 10 players together?

You are comparing the leader of an entire organised train to a solo player just to justify that overall every member of an organised train has to think a lot more than a solo player. You are comparing apples with oranges. Ive played in a train. But if u have actually ever played solo small scale you would never even attempt to compare it with a random member of trains in terms of skill. Come on now. You cant possibly be serious about that. Its not even funny.

You are talking about not having counterplay against unorganized zergs. But do you know what the irony is about counterplay? That those solo/small scale player or anyone else for that matter have no counterplay against you. There is literally less counterplay against you than to an unorganized group with double the size of ur group. The only way to counter you is with another similar group like urs or even bigger crutching on the exact same stupid mechanics. Everything is about numbers which leads to the zerg fest that you actually dont like.

You are arguing for the same thing that you dont like and you dont even know it. I understand that you may like that playstyle but you seriously need to open ur eyes and realise what the f is going on.

I'm really confused as to what you are trying to advocate for here. Should everyone just run around solo? This thread wasn't created to bash on organized play, it was created to discuss the current organized meta. You're just bashing general organized play and stating your opinions as fact.

Yes solo players cannot counter an organized group. They shouldn't. They are outnumbered and fighting something that is designed to work together with synergy. If a solo player had the tools to wipe an organized group then those in that group would be using the same tools but more efficiently with more people. This shouldn't be an argument. If you are outnumbered and your opponent is organized you should lose the majority of the time.

Yes ball groups exist as a result of the large mindless zergs. The mindless zergs do not exist as a result of the ball groups. There are giant 50 man zergs running around regardless if there is a organized ball group to fight them. How do you propose people counter that? Another mindless 50 man zerg? How is that a challenge for player skill and growth? Not to mention the servers would crash nightly trying to support this.

If you want to run solo and fight small groups of unorganized players by all means do it. It's fun. But there shouldn't be an expectation of "I should be able to win any fight I want" in open world PvP with no regard for numbers or organization.

If the game people are pushing for is one where group skill is irrelevant and individual killing potential is the priority, you're going to have a much much worse meta with everyone frontloading nothing but pure heals or pure damage and zero counterplay.

I never at any point advocated for cyrodiil to become a small scale skirmish. You are just putting words in my mouth that i never said. I actually said in previous posts that i dont want to kill those groups, i dont even expect to kill them and i dont want to make cyrodiil designed for small groups. If you didnt understand what i said you should ask for further clarification. Jumping to stupid conclusions like i somehow want to get rid of grouping in general is very stupid and i never said that.

The very fact that we associate "organised" with ball groups is actually a big issue. We ended up just accepting that orgainsed means abuse people with no counterplay. Im sorry for not accepting that and instead advocating for a gameplay that actually requires skill and its not based on who has the most numbers. Im not advocating for a solo cyrodiil. Im advocating for a cyrodiil where every playstyle should exist. Right now its either ball up or gtfo.

The reason that there are so many zergs is that the gameplay is general is a joke with no counterplay. Which is the exact same idea that ball groups are based on. No counterplay. And also u seriously got to understand one thing. Just because there are big zergs, it doesnt mean that u are entitled to kill them. You are telling me that i shouldnt be able to kill an organised group but you somehow believe that trains should be able to kill zergs with 3 times their size. Thats not how this works mate. You cant have it both ways.

I never once indicated that you said cyrodiil should be a small scale skirmish. I just took the context of your consistent posting about how people in solo builds took more effort and skill to create those builds than those in a group, and about how you believe people should be able to run solo builds in a group and not have to ball up, to form my opinion that you just want cyrodiil to be solo friendly and thats it. If you have an actual constructive opinion about how to fix the destro meta then please let me hear it. But so far all I've been hearing is "ball groups are terrible, solo players have more skill".

Maybe you need to ask for further clarification, because I never said anyone was entitled to kill anyone outnumbered. I specifically said you should lose to a larger force when the enemy is organized. I also used the term "mindless" when referring to the giant zerg, which is why the organized groups can kill them. It's no different than the hundreds of 1vX videos out there of good players fighting multiple bad players, not organized groups.

You also never really answered my question. What are you advocating for? And this time please try and keep it to the context of the thread OP, because "no more ball groups", while apparently a popular buzz-phrase, is not constructive and only leads to this kind of back and forth.

Ixtyr wrote: »

Jesus Christ this thread has become cancer. And people wonder why ZOS doesn't comment. If I had to sift through the layers of *** to find the constructive feedback, just to find out that someone seems to be disagreeing with literally everything being said by everyone else, I'd stop giving a *** and just go with my own opinions too.

Dear Devs,

If you use the ignore function it makes that person's posts a nice restful white space on the screen. Recommended!

I would start with:

1. Ultimate should degenerate outside combat
2. Purge and Morphs should be caster only and have their costs reduced
3. Healing Springs should have its radius reduced
4. Large Group size should be limited to 12.

Elembeebee wrote: »

I would start with:

1. Ultimate should degenerate outside combat
2. Purge and Morphs should be caster only and have their costs reduced
3. Healing Springs should have its radius reduced
4. Large Group size should be limited to 12.

I like a bit of tension in the mix.

Give negate the EotS treatment. Centered on and moves with caster, and pulses over 7sec. Make negates impervious to negates. Increase the radius to 10m.

pieratsos wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Newton's_bane wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Just because you put some thought and made a build it doenst mean that the whole server needs to suffer for it and that you should get carried by bs mechanics.

Solo players put lots of thought into making their builds as well. A lot more thought than you do i should add and thats not even a debate. They dont feel entitled to bs mechanics to carry them and wreck everyone in their path.

I assume you never ran in a PvP train. If you had you would never make that comment. Most of the week I play solo or smallscale and have made countless builds by now and I know it takes a while to come up with something new and get used to it. I must admit that the majority of time doesn't go into making a build for a train but the majority goes into training. It takes months to work together as one train group and as much as becoming a good leader. I think I can for sure say that making a good solo build is just a fraction of what goes into making a good train.
But that's not the point the thing is that trains target zergs not solo players or smallscalers. They are not even effective against them. So solo players have not much to worry about unless they are zerg surfing ofc. I mean what do you want else: absolutely no counterplay to massive zergs of another faction while your faction struggles to put 10 players together?

You are comparing the leader of an entire organised train to a solo player just to justify that overall every member of an organised train has to think a lot more than a solo player. You are comparing apples with oranges. Ive played in a train. But if u have actually ever played solo small scale you would never even attempt to compare it with a random member of trains in terms of skill. Come on now. You cant possibly be serious about that. Its not even funny.

You are talking about not having counterplay against unorganized zergs. But do you know what the irony is about counterplay? That those solo/small scale player or anyone else for that matter have no counterplay against you. There is literally less counterplay against you than to an unorganized group with double the size of ur group. The only way to counter you is with another similar group like urs or even bigger crutching on the exact same stupid mechanics. Everything is about numbers which leads to the zerg fest that you actually dont like.

You are arguing for the same thing that you dont like and you dont even know it. I understand that you may like that playstyle but you seriously need to open ur eyes and realise what the f is going on.

I'm really confused as to what you are trying to advocate for here. Should everyone just run around solo? This thread wasn't created to bash on organized play, it was created to discuss the current organized meta. You're just bashing general organized play and stating your opinions as fact.

Yes solo players cannot counter an organized group. They shouldn't. They are outnumbered and fighting something that is designed to work together with synergy. If a solo player had the tools to wipe an organized group then those in that group would be using the same tools but more efficiently with more people. This shouldn't be an argument. If you are outnumbered and your opponent is organized you should lose the majority of the time.

Yes ball groups exist as a result of the large mindless zergs. The mindless zergs do not exist as a result of the ball groups. There are giant 50 man zergs running around regardless if there is a organized ball group to fight them. How do you propose people counter that? Another mindless 50 man zerg? How is that a challenge for player skill and growth? Not to mention the servers would crash nightly trying to support this.

If you want to run solo and fight small groups of unorganized players by all means do it. It's fun. But there shouldn't be an expectation of "I should be able to win any fight I want" in open world PvP with no regard for numbers or organization.

If the game people are pushing for is one where group skill is irrelevant and individual killing potential is the priority, you're going to have a much much worse meta with everyone frontloading nothing but pure heals or pure damage and zero counterplay.

I never at any point advocated for cyrodiil to become a small scale skirmish. You are just putting words in my mouth that i never said. I actually said in previous posts that i dont want to kill those groups, i dont even expect to kill them and i dont want to make cyrodiil designed for small groups. If you didnt understand what i said you should ask for further clarification. Jumping to stupid conclusions like i somehow want to get rid of grouping in general is very stupid and i never said that.

The very fact that we associate "organised" with ball groups is actually a big issue. We ended up just accepting that orgainsed means abuse people with no counterplay. Im sorry for not accepting that and instead advocating for a gameplay that actually requires skill and its not based on who has the most numbers. Im not advocating for a solo cyrodiil. Im advocating for a cyrodiil where every playstyle should exist. Right now its either ball up or gtfo.

The reason that there are so many zergs is that the gameplay is general is a joke with no counterplay. Which is the exact same idea that ball groups are based on. No counterplay. And also u seriously got to understand one thing. Just because there are big zergs, it doesnt mean that u are entitled to kill them. You are telling me that i shouldnt be able to kill an organised group but you somehow believe that trains should be able to kill zergs with 3 times their size. Thats not how this works mate. You cant have it both ways.

I never once indicated that you said cyrodiil should be a small scale skirmish. I just took the context of your consistent posting about how people in solo builds took more effort and skill to create those builds than those in a group, and about how you believe people should be able to run solo builds in a group and not have to ball up, to form my opinion that you just want cyrodiil to be solo friendly and thats it. If you have an actual constructive opinion about how to fix the destro meta then please let me hear it. But so far all I've been hearing is "ball groups are terrible, solo players have more skill".

Maybe you need to ask for further clarification, because I never said anyone was entitled to kill anyone outnumbered. I specifically said you should lose to a larger force when the enemy is organized. I also used the term "mindless" when referring to the giant zerg, which is why the organized groups can kill them. It's no different than the hundreds of 1vX videos out there of good players fighting multiple bad players, not organized groups.

You also never really answered my question. What are you advocating for? And this time please try and keep it to the context of the thread OP, because "no more ball groups", while apparently a popular buzz-phrase, is not constructive and only leads to this kind of back and forth.

I already answered you what im advocating for. A gameplay that actually requires skill and its not based on who has the most numbers. Im advocating for a cyrodiil where every playstyle should exist. The question is what are you advocating for?

I compared solo vs a member of trains in terms of skill cause the person i was responding to also compared it. You seem to have an issue only when im comparing it but not when he does.

3 good players playing together can also be organized and better players. You dont have to take my word on this. Many people that play in ball groups admitted that even in this thread. Go back a couple of pages and ull find someone admitting that people in his group are not good at 1vX. 1vX is mostly based on player skill. So they are organised and better players and yet according to you they shouldnt be able to take out trains but trains should be able to take out larger and worse groups than them. Like i said, you cant have it both ways.

And its absolutely different the 1vX scenario from the ball vs zerg scenario. You can kill that guy by outplaying him. You cannot kill ball groups by outplaying them cause there is no counterplay. You can only take them out by abusing the same mechanics they abuse. No counterplay and abusing mechanics does not equal with player skill. You somehow believe that they are the same.

Which brings me to this. I dont want to make cyro solo friendly. Solo play is dependant on player skill. Its basically skill vs numbers. Solo play comes naturally with skilled gameplay. That doesnt mean solo friendly. That just means healthy PVP and not mindless zergs which ironically is what you dont like. You basically dont like mindless no counterplay zerging and instead of advocating for addressing the issue at its root which is bad gameplay, you are advocating for an equally bad gameplay if not worse to fix it. You do not fix one bad thing with another bad thing. You just make things worse. And they are worse. They've never been worse than now. I really dont understand what there is to talk about that. PVP health and population is at an all time low. What more do u need to realise that things need to change drastically?

I have many problems with the current meta. I've never said otherwise. It is stale and relies on overperforming item sets and game mechanics. But I don't have a reasonable idea as to how to fix it in the confines of the current game. Which is why I didn't voice my opinion about how to fix the destro meta. You are suggesting an entire re-work of game mechanics when it's obvious ZOS doesn't even know how to fix lag, which is entirely unrealistic and just sounds like someone is mad they can't have what they want.

I specifically responded to you because it seems like you are of the opinion that a group that is running a playstyle in the current meta has no skill. I have read the entire thread, which is why I decided to start this debate with you, who is very vocal about thinking the current organized meta requires no skill. Any organized playstyle is going to need skilled players. Why is it that when players decide to use the tools that ZOS provide, which incidentally give them the largest advantage, do you decide that it is now without skill? When did "skill" and "meta" become antonyms?

And again, this is a thread talking about the current destro meta, not about small 3 man groups. (or whatever arbitrary number you pick). Anyone can beat anyone in this game, but you shouldn't expect to be able to beat everyone. I don't understand why you keep trying to turn me into a hypocrite about this. I never said less numbers means you always lose. Organized groups lose to mega zergs all the time. Smaller organized groups can and do beat the current meta trains. There are counters to everything in this game. But just because something "counters" something else, it doesn't mean that's the only way to fight it. That's not how balance works. And "abusing mechanics" is just a cop-out on the same level as "they use CE because I lost". If one organized group beats another, its because they played better, and were more skillful.

This isn't that hard to grasp. The playstyle isn't unbeatable. Is it annoying to fight? Sure. So were the past dozen metas. So what is it that makes this one so lacking in skill in your opinion? I'll answer the typical responses now so you can think a little harder.

"One button easymode" - 5 skils per bar, 1 ult, 2 bars, each role in a "meta group" rotates through 3-4 skills per 2-3 seconds regardless of how "rapids spam" or "purgebot" sounds. I've played all the roles, some are boring, but definitely not because you are only pushing one button.
"Stack on crown" - this one shouldn't even be a criticism of group play. If you want people to move in the same direction with coordination, it makes sense to start at the same point. And ZOS helps by giving everyone a nice crown image on the compass to move to.
"Destro spam" - current best large group PBAoE. Complain about destro, not the people using it.
"No skill" - this is 100% opinionated, seeing as there is literally no metric for player skill in the game (no group leaderboards or instanced group bgs), and I already know your opinion on this
"abusing mechanics" - otherwise known as "exploiting", which if it were the case 60% of the PvP pop would be banned. Again, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's inherently wrong.
"lazy" - *see one button easymore


To be clear, I haven't advocated for anything here. I never once said I liked the current meta. All I asked was what you were trying to contribute to the discussion about how to fix the current meta instead of repeated comments about how those that play it have no skill.

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

I can see how you and others may have taken my insults to the tactics you use personally. Especially since they imply something I do not believe, namely it doesn't take skill to be a good destro-bomb group. It does. I still think the tactics are overly simplified, that skill is being misused and wasted, those tactics are too predominate, and they drive people away from the game. It would have been more productive to air my grievances without the adjectives so commonly thrown around.

What bothers me the most is your (and Rin's) insistence in telling me how I felt about groups, how I felt about tactics, and whether or not I have changed my mind about either. Neither of you know me, neither or you know my history of the game. Yet I have to sit here and have both of you proclaim to me and everyone on these forums how I have played, how I feel about the game, how my attitudes to the meta is a consequence of my current PvP guild situation (which you are wrong about). On top of that, have the conceit to tell me that I'm wrong about my own history, feelings, and motivations. That's garbage. That goes beyond arrogance and condescension. Don't tell me what my opinions were and are. You have no clue. You don't even know my current situation since you kept insisting that I don't have a group or a guild, when I do. You have done all this to me and then tell me I'm wrong suggesting you know me better than I do. That is incredibly insulting.

Now you're trying to be literal about a parody as your justification that somehow you know me better than I do. Give me a break. It's a parody, whose intent was humor, not a detailed exposition of my analysis of 2015 raid tactics.

And you are intentionally misinterpreting what I say:

Your mission to remove tools to deal with faction stacks by trying to remove organised group play

Oh, no. That's you putting incorrect words into my mouth. Stack-on-Crown mass PBAoEs does not encompass all organized group play. They are not the same. Only a specific subset, one that you just happen to be a practitioner of. My "mission" is to have ZoS provide more and different tools to enable a greater variety of organized group play. That's a point even non-VE members understood, yet you misrepresented me anyway.

As for the main point we differ on, you're making quite a few assumptions.

Hate should never get what it wants, I think more people hate gankers or faction stack zerging does that mean that those playstyles should go too? Your mission to remove tools to deal with faction stacks by trying to remove organised group play unfortunately will have a detrimental effect on the game. This is why its important to consider the whole argument and why good positive discussion is important before coming to a conclusion.
If 'the people' want all your property and money do you hand them out freely to them even if you are good enough to make more?

First of all, ganking isn't even on topic. If you or people feel it is overpowered such that it creates too large of an imbalance, then that's for another thread. And even then, ZoS has made numerous nerfs to ganking going all the way back to the 1.5 patch when they reduced bonus damage provided by stealth attacks. Because ZoS tries to respond to things it and a critical mass of the community perceive as over-performing.

Secondly, never is a strong word. I, and I'm sure a lot of other folks, hate racism, gender inequality, police brutality, political imprisonment, et. al., and there is an argument to be made that getting rid of these practices and institutions would represent progress. But that's besides the point.

A lot of people exhibited hate toward proc sets, ground oils, uncapped Champion Points, the overpowered DKs at launch, etc., and ZoS has done some good work in improving the game by addressing these. We can hope that a positive outcome will come out of their attempt to deal with perma-blocking and Miat's add-on, other things many people have expressed hatred towards.

There are generally two-ways to deal with things that are over-performing. Nerfs or buffing alternatives. I want the latter. You and Rin have erroneously claimed that I want to "remove" organized group play because you mistakenly think I no longer play in an organized group. Wrong on all counts. I never said I want to remove groups or group play. I currently play in a group. I have said I want organized groups to use tactics that go beyond stacking and kill via delivering coordinated AoEs.

My "mission" is to add different tools such that stack-on-crown destro pain-trains are not the only means to deal with faction stacks. There was a time when there were tools in this game like dynamic ultimate, potent class abilities like Repentance and the old Battleroar, and even the ill-conceived ground oil made it such there were other means to fight even when badly outnumbered without having to be in a destro-pain train. Alternatives. I want ZoS to at least try and explore options because stagnating in a status quo where destro pains-trains are predominant has gotten is have an all time low PvP population.

Even if we accept your premise that organized raids provide a crucial function in dealing with faction-stacks, it doesn't automatically follow that it's not harming the overall health of the game. If the means in which that goal is accomplished are very frustrating to many players, then it's one step forward, two steps back. ZoS has done a lot of things to make the game a better product (granted, baby steps, but load an old video to see how bad the lag, skill delays, doors not working, etc.), we should be seeing more people, not less.

And no, if If 'the people' want all my property and money, I do not hand them out freely to them. Because it' would leave me destitute and isn't following what you deem important, considering the whole argument. By taking the phrase "give the people what they want," in such a way, you are only considering the narrow, literal interpretation when it's crystal clear to everyone that it's a metaphor and not meant to be taken literally.

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm done here. The only reason I posted in depth was because if there was one thread a ZoS developer would look at in this sub-forum, it would be this one. That was why I went into depth. My issue is with the tactics destro-stack-on-crown-raids use, not groups. The distinction is clear enough for others to see yet you can't grasp it.

I literally quoted you when you said that during the time you were in VE you actually wanted to fight and deal with other bomb groups and suddenly you "done" here only replaying to Iz? Posting again and again bs like "You're just sore because your assumption about me feeling differently after VE disbanded was wrong"?

Joy_Division wrote: »

Oh, so you have a problem about the language used huh?

It was the point of the discussion from the very beginning. Good morning.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yet you and Rin have zero problem using insulting language that is directed at me personally. ... You have demonstrated that you have zero problem throwing out insults and calling out other people and guilds for behavior that you have done yourself.

I have no problem to answer to people that insult others and tell them in their faces who they are, yes. If these people (or you) didn't want to hear insults as an answer, perhaps they should watch their own language in the first place?
Also it's funny how you're trying to twist everything now It wasn't us who started to insult other people here

Joy_Division wrote: »

When I insult the tactics your raid uses, you take it as a personal insult.

Once again: you didn't insult the tactics. You insult players that play a particular playstyle.

Even your old raid leader mentioned the problem in this thread:

Satiar wrote: »

This is what happens as the PvP population slowly dwindles. It takes a reasonable amount of effort to be competitive in ESO, a large time investment too. It's something I noted many times about the PvP community in ESO. In other MMOs I played, you get run over by an insanely good guild and the reaction is, "I want to be them." In ESO, people get run over and the thought is, "*** those guys and their playstyle."

I never understood that. I still, personally, blame each and every player who went on in game, on forums, on podcasts or twitch about the evils of guild play and how group sizes should be at X limit and you should only play in certain ways. They harmed the game and its pvp community in ways that will never heal. They helped to turn ESO PvP toxic: towards high level play and toward the guilds that hold a PvP community together. IVe never see this in a PvP game before and I hope i never do again.

Anazasi wrote: »

So why is anyone wasting the time to even discuss groups zergs or the which faction stack the best.

Because until some players keep constantly calling others like this (just because they don't like or disagree with the play style, or can't participate it): "mindless bots", "zerging monkeys", "no-skill-stack-on-crown-groups" etc etc etc thinking that they somehow making valid point or contributing to discussion by saying this. Such kind of discussions will always be a joke, a mess and nothing but a drama popcorn fest. There are over 20 pages in this thread already and yet we can't agree on what the actual problem is: zergs, organised bomb groups, mechanics or something else.

pieratsos wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Newton's_bane wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Just because you put some thought and made a build it doenst mean that the whole server needs to suffer for it and that you should get carried by bs mechanics.

Solo players put lots of thought into making their builds as well. A lot more thought than you do i should add and thats not even a debate. They dont feel entitled to bs mechanics to carry them and wreck everyone in their path.

I assume you never ran in a PvP train. If you had you would never make that comment. Most of the week I play solo or smallscale and have made countless builds by now and I know it takes a while to come up with something new and get used to it. I must admit that the majority of time doesn't go into making a build for a train but the majority goes into training. It takes months to work together as one train group and as much as becoming a good leader. I think I can for sure say that making a good solo build is just a fraction of what goes into making a good train.
But that's not the point the thing is that trains target zergs not solo players or smallscalers. They are not even effective against them. So solo players have not much to worry about unless they are zerg surfing ofc. I mean what do you want else: absolutely no counterplay to massive zergs of another faction while your faction struggles to put 10 players together?

You are comparing the leader of an entire organised train to a solo player just to justify that overall every member of an organised train has to think a lot more than a solo player. You are comparing apples with oranges. Ive played in a train. But if u have actually ever played solo small scale you would never even attempt to compare it with a random member of trains in terms of skill. Come on now. You cant possibly be serious about that. Its not even funny.

You are talking about not having counterplay against unorganized zergs. But do you know what the irony is about counterplay? That those solo/small scale player or anyone else for that matter have no counterplay against you. There is literally less counterplay against you than to an unorganized group with double the size of ur group. The only way to counter you is with another similar group like urs or even bigger crutching on the exact same stupid mechanics. Everything is about numbers which leads to the zerg fest that you actually dont like.

You are arguing for the same thing that you dont like and you dont even know it. I understand that you may like that playstyle but you seriously need to open ur eyes and realise what the f is going on.

I'm really confused as to what you are trying to advocate for here. Should everyone just run around solo? This thread wasn't created to bash on organized play, it was created to discuss the current organized meta. You're just bashing general organized play and stating your opinions as fact.

Yes solo players cannot counter an organized group. They shouldn't. They are outnumbered and fighting something that is designed to work together with synergy. If a solo player had the tools to wipe an organized group then those in that group would be using the same tools but more efficiently with more people. This shouldn't be an argument. If you are outnumbered and your opponent is organized you should lose the majority of the time.

Yes ball groups exist as a result of the large mindless zergs. The mindless zergs do not exist as a result of the ball groups. There are giant 50 man zergs running around regardless if there is a organized ball group to fight them. How do you propose people counter that? Another mindless 50 man zerg? How is that a challenge for player skill and growth? Not to mention the servers would crash nightly trying to support this.

If you want to run solo and fight small groups of unorganized players by all means do it. It's fun. But there shouldn't be an expectation of "I should be able to win any fight I want" in open world PvP with no regard for numbers or organization.

If the game people are pushing for is one where group skill is irrelevant and individual killing potential is the priority, you're going to have a much much worse meta with everyone frontloading nothing but pure heals or pure damage and zero counterplay.

I never at any point advocated for cyrodiil to become a small scale skirmish. You are just putting words in my mouth that i never said. I actually said in previous posts that i dont want to kill those groups, i dont even expect to kill them and i dont want to make cyrodiil designed for small groups. If you didnt understand what i said you should ask for further clarification. Jumping to stupid conclusions like i somehow want to get rid of grouping in general is very stupid and i never said that.

The very fact that we associate "organised" with ball groups is actually a big issue. We ended up just accepting that orgainsed means abuse people with no counterplay. Im sorry for not accepting that and instead advocating for a gameplay that actually requires skill and its not based on who has the most numbers. Im not advocating for a solo cyrodiil. Im advocating for a cyrodiil where every playstyle should exist. Right now its either ball up or gtfo.

The reason that there are so many zergs is that the gameplay is general is a joke with no counterplay. Which is the exact same idea that ball groups are based on. No counterplay. And also u seriously got to understand one thing. Just because there are big zergs, it doesnt mean that u are entitled to kill them. You are telling me that i shouldnt be able to kill an organised group but you somehow believe that trains should be able to kill zergs with 3 times their size. Thats not how this works mate. You cant have it both ways.

I never once indicated that you said cyrodiil should be a small scale skirmish. I just took the context of your consistent posting about how people in solo builds took more effort and skill to create those builds than those in a group, and about how you believe people should be able to run solo builds in a group and not have to ball up, to form my opinion that you just want cyrodiil to be solo friendly and thats it. If you have an actual constructive opinion about how to fix the destro meta then please let me hear it. But so far all I've been hearing is "ball groups are terrible, solo players have more skill".

Maybe you need to ask for further clarification, because I never said anyone was entitled to kill anyone outnumbered. I specifically said you should lose to a larger force when the enemy is organized. I also used the term "mindless" when referring to the giant zerg, which is why the organized groups can kill them. It's no different than the hundreds of 1vX videos out there of good players fighting multiple bad players, not organized groups.

You also never really answered my question. What are you advocating for? And this time please try and keep it to the context of the thread OP, because "no more ball groups", while apparently a popular buzz-phrase, is not constructive and only leads to this kind of back and forth.

I already answered you what im advocating for. A gameplay that actually requires skill and its not based on who has the most numbers. Im advocating for a cyrodiil where every playstyle should exist. The question is what are you advocating for?

I compared solo vs a member of trains in terms of skill cause the person i was responding to also compared it. You seem to have an issue only when im comparing it but not when he does.

3 good players playing together can also be organized and better players. You dont have to take my word on this. Many people that play in ball groups admitted that even in this thread. Go back a couple of pages and ull find someone admitting that people in his group are not good at 1vX. 1vX is mostly based on player skill. So they are organised and better players and yet according to you they shouldnt be able to take out trains but trains should be able to take out larger and worse groups than them. Like i said, you cant have it both ways.

And its absolutely different the 1vX scenario from the ball vs zerg scenario. You can kill that guy by outplaying him. You cannot kill ball groups by outplaying them cause there is no counterplay. You can only take them out by abusing the same mechanics they abuse. No counterplay and abusing mechanics does not equal with player skill. You somehow believe that they are the same.

Which brings me to this. I dont want to make cyro solo friendly. Solo play is dependant on player skill. Its basically skill vs numbers. Solo play comes naturally with skilled gameplay. That doesnt mean solo friendly. That just means healthy PVP and not mindless zergs which ironically is what you dont like. You basically dont like mindless no counterplay zerging and instead of advocating for addressing the issue at its root which is bad gameplay, you are advocating for an equally bad gameplay if not worse to fix it. You do not fix one bad thing with another bad thing. You just make things worse. And they are worse. They've never been worse than now. I really dont understand what there is to talk about that. PVP health and population is at an all time low. What more do u need to realise that things need to change drastically?

I have many problems with the current meta. I've never said otherwise. It is stale and relies on overperforming item sets and game mechanics. But I don't have a reasonable idea as to how to fix it in the confines of the current game. Which is why I didn't voice my opinion about how to fix the destro meta. You are suggesting an entire re-work of game mechanics when it's obvious ZOS doesn't even know how to fix lag, which is entirely unrealistic and just sounds like someone is mad they can't have what they want.

I specifically responded to you because it seems like you are of the opinion that a group that is running a playstyle in the current meta has no skill. I have read the entire thread, which is why I decided to start this debate with you, who is very vocal about thinking the current organized meta requires no skill. Any organized playstyle is going to need skilled players. Why is it that when players decide to use the tools that ZOS provide, which incidentally give them the largest advantage, do you decide that it is now without skill? When did "skill" and "meta" become antonyms?

And again, this is a thread talking about the current destro meta, not about small 3 man groups. (or whatever arbitrary number you pick). Anyone can beat anyone in this game, but you shouldn't expect to be able to beat everyone. I don't understand why you keep trying to turn me into a hypocrite about this. I never said less numbers means you always lose. Organized groups lose to mega zergs all the time. Smaller organized groups can and do beat the current meta trains. There are counters to everything in this game. But just because something "counters" something else, it doesn't mean that's the only way to fight it. That's not how balance works. And "abusing mechanics" is just a cop-out on the same level as "they use CE because I lost". If one organized group beats another, its because they played better, and were more skillful.

This isn't that hard to grasp. The playstyle isn't unbeatable. Is it annoying to fight? Sure. So were the past dozen metas. So what is it that makes this one so lacking in skill in your opinion? I'll answer the typical responses now so you can think a little harder.

"One button easymode" - 5 skils per bar, 1 ult, 2 bars, each role in a "meta group" rotates through 3-4 skills per 2-3 seconds regardless of how "rapids spam" or "purgebot" sounds. I've played all the roles, some are boring, but definitely not because you are only pushing one button.
"Stack on crown" - this one shouldn't even be a criticism of group play. If you want people to move in the same direction with coordination, it makes sense to start at the same point. And ZOS helps by giving everyone a nice crown image on the compass to move to.
"Destro spam" - current best large group PBAoE. Complain about destro, not the people using it.
"No skill" - this is 100% opinionated, seeing as there is literally no metric for player skill in the game (no group leaderboards or instanced group bgs), and I already know your opinion on this
"abusing mechanics" - otherwise known as "exploiting", which if it were the case 60% of the PvP pop would be banned. Again, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's inherently wrong.
"lazy" - *see one button easymore


To be clear, I haven't advocated for anything here. I never once said I liked the current meta. All I asked was what you were trying to contribute to the discussion about how to fix the current meta instead of repeated comments about how those that play it have no skill.

Just because ZOS cant fix lag it doenst mean that we should just sit and accept this trash that we have now. Ironically you are talking about lag when lag can be caused by ball groups.

Yeah you say anyone can beat anyone but this is the whole thing. No, you cant outplay ball groups. You must abuse them. This is the whole point of fighting a ball group with another ball group. Again, you are confusing abusing mechanics to kill people with counterplay.

You keep on associating the word "organised" with ball groups and moving like a train. No, organised doesnt have to be like that. I really dont understand why u are so narrow minded. If im in a large group and i send for example two nightblades to go and gank reinforcements or i have my tanks in the middle of the fight controlling the battlefield or if i have my heavy ranged sorc cannons on the back we are not organised because we are not moving like a train? This is utterly ridiculous. I am advocating for a skilled gameplay. A gameplay in which u can counter ur opponents. Running in a train and being immune to more than half of game's mechanics is the exact opposite, which again is why u need another similar group to fight that in the first place.

This is what kena said some time ago. "I too love unorganized large scale PvP -- "unorganized" meaning no ball groups present, just a big siege with mostly small groups and pugs and maybe a few large groups who don't ball up on each other and roll over everyone else, with several skirmishes happening at the same time all over and around the keep". You see, this is also a large scale fight. Large scale does not have to involve ball groups rolling over everyone. Just a large scale fight in which every kind of playstyle solo- organised small/large groups can be present.

There have been many suggestions actually about possible ways to make the game better in this thread. I talked about it as well. Feel free to go back and read. You just conveniently chose to ignore everything and picked the comment that u liked to start this argument.

I haven't ignored anything. And I definitely don't accept the game as it is. I'm also not the one labeling a playstyle. When I say organized, I don't refer to the number of players in the group, or the way that group chooses to organize its players. I completely agree with you that meta groups aren't the definition of an organized group. But what you keep seeming to avoid saying is why that playstyle is skill-less. Just because something doesn't have counterplay (the meta does have counterplay, and you don't need to run meta to beat it) doesn't make it without skill.

In regards to large scale fights where every playstyle can be present, why does that have to discriminate against a "ball group". It's a playstyle. If the ball didn't run destro and prox but still ran as tight would you still have a problem with it? If they used zero aoe abilities, but still moved as a tight ball/train and killed as efficiently, would it still be without skill? If you eliminate what makes a ball group effective (PBAoE, support abilities/group synergy, etc) I can promise you the game will turn into zerg simulator with a gank dlc.

This whole debate of "the meta is easy and without skill" is pointless. There are no facts to back it up, it's all your opinion, and so far you haven't said anything to prove why there is no skill in the meta. Show me how it takes no skill to run in that style of organized group and I will agree with you. But until then, just saying skill = counterplay is not good enough for me.